According to NASA psychologists, part of what helped the trapped miners survive was the establishing of a hierarchy among themselves, including roles such as “spiritual leader, food manger, team leader, shift supervisor, secretary, reporter, ” etc….
I leaped off the couch when I heard this report as we watched the incredible rescue, and yelled, “someone give me a pen and paper”. Nobody else really caught the sentence, but it jumped out at me.
“Incredibly, the miners had established a hierarchy among themselves in the 17 days before they were found. The Chilean officials are supporting that hierarchy and leadership, which the NASA team also commended.”
The psychologist went on to say they see similar behavior anytime there is a group of people depending on each other for survival….people on a mission. And get his, one psychologist said, “When the people in the group submit to that hierarchy they do better physically and emotionally.”
Hierarchy in real life is NOT a popular concept. We have successfully repressed the idea that there is any need for one person to oversee another in any form (except an employer/employee relationship).
But a life crisis reveals something very telling of human nature: we need order and yes, hierarchy.
The roles that the men played “down under” did not diminish the value of any of them. I doubt one of them came up from that cave feeling resentful or “second-rate”. It happened quite naturally. No one was balking at the idea of hierarchy.
Why do we?
It reminds me of a family! On a mission, surviving through life’s crises. Only in a family, God establishes the perfect hierarchy where He is supreme leader.
Just thought it was an interesting observation.
56 comments
Ha! I was just going to comment on yesterdays blog about submission, and what i wrote was about hierarchy and survival. Everything runs more smoothly when you have a chain of command ( in family it is God, husband,wife, children) You focus on your mission when you already know who is in charge and what your role is. But when you are looking for equality, your focus will constantly be on making sure everything is equal, instead of getting the job done. In the military everyone answers to someone, the higher up the chain of command you are, the MORE responsibility you have and the more accountable you are for decisions made.
Natasha, I don’t buy that chain of command stuff for a second. Teamwork is the key, not a constant ladder of command.
In family, that is.
Great observation!!!
Jennifer- the military has a chain of command, AND they use teamwork. There is both at the same time. Hospitals have a chain of command, AND there is team work. The higher up the chain of command you are, means the more responsibility and accountability you have over others. It’s not about power and perks.
Like I said Natasha, I don’t believe in marital hierarchy (except God) or spiritual hierarchy in the church. Hierarchy in military positions and society, obviously, is quite a different matter and very much organized by God.
Jennifer- I find your comments completely pointless and often silly. You reply with much antagonism, instead of asking some questions on an issue you have NO experience with. You have been called out on this behavior by more than one person on this blog. Frankly, I’m tired of reading your comments that get in the way of finding advice of wisdom from others. Kindly, Please refrain yourself from replying to my comments, and I won’t reply to yours. You lack the wisdom or experience I am looking for, therefore I will not encourage you to keep ignoring others and looking for a way to disagree.
I often tell my children to stop talking and just listen and observe me, because that is how they will learn. When I am around God fearing women I ask questions, and observe, even if I don’t agree with them, because I always want to be shown the truth. When I am cooking with my mother in law, I don’t tell her that she cooks eggs incorrectly. She has been cooking for 20 years. I stay quite and ask questions, so that I can learn.
You are not married, therefore you should be studying on what God intends for marriage, NOT spouting off what you believe to be true. You are like a 12 year old who tells a nursing mother how to get the baby to latch on correctly. The 12 year old thinks she knows what she is talking about because she has watched her mother nurse her 6 other siblings. This 12 year old would be called precocious, and that isn’t a compliment.
I wont apologize for any harshness you take from this, because I have read over and over again others telling you the same thing, yet you don’t seem to make the connection. For example if my friend told me I am often irritable, I might look at myself and see if that were true. But if I had more than one person telling me that I am irritable, then I would for sure be changing myself. You have had more than one person tell you about your comments.
Do not reply to this. I am done with your foolish comments. I come here to be in agreement with other women and dig deeper into our common beliefs. I don’t come here to be antagonized or to try and prove anything. It’s futile.
Kelly- I’m sorry if this offends anyone in anyway. But I am tired of these comments getting off topic bc everyone is trying to defend themselves. I read your blog because I agree with your basic beliefs and I want to know more and be encouraged.
Everyone-instead of replying to comments I think it would be better to just say what we have to say, and others can read it and take what wisdom they can from it. I will refrain from questioning or arguing with anyone, I will only reply to comments if it is to genuinely ask a question or to affirm my agreement.
Thank you
I’m sorry you find yourself in a foul mood upon reading my comments, Natasha. I am not a 12-year-old, but a grown woman who finds studying what God expects out of marriage VERY important before I get married. I’ve learned from women older, wiser and more experienced and educated on the matter than you, who express things that QUITE contrast your ideas, and I will not ignore their teachings and experience, especially not in the face of your rudeness. My comments were not in the least antagonistic, they simply disagreed with yours and even offered the clarifying statements “to me” and “in my opinion”. I’d rather agree with people, but I’ve seen the poison of constantly focusing on hierarchy in every situation and I will sometimes speak up. I will also, however, be more than happy to ignore your comments from now on. You’ve jumped to offense faster than anyone else here, even when I attempted to open a deep discussion with you, and I think it’s your own desire to disagree that’s provoked argument. In short, you’ve proven to be a person I have no wish to take an example from or learn from in any case. Have a good weekend.
Again, I am not the only person who has told you this Jennifer. I responded to you this way because it isn’t the first time.
You are the first person to react angrily, more than once, on so little provocation, Natasha. Good luck on your walk with God.
Thank you, Natasha, for speaking up. I always love reading Kelly’s blog and posts and the wonderful comments from other ladies. It has always been so encouraging and challenging to me. My spirit would be uplifted after reading. But lately I have noticed that Jennifer’s comments seem to outnumber all the other ladies and that she always has something negative, harsh, and demeaning to say to other ladies or regarding Kelly’s post. It started dampening my mood and causing me to become upset instead of being encouraging or sparking a healthy discussion/debate. I’m sorry, Jennifer, that almost every comment seems to make you upset or that you have to have the last word on any discussion, but your comments do not seem to be written with a gentle spirit. I do not know you, and this isn’t my blog, so I won’t say more, but your comments are distracting and not in a positive way.
Sorry to know I offended you, Alison. However, I find your accusation of demeaning the other women and Kelly’s words to be unfair and ridiculous. If you have an issue with me, I’d appreciate it if you spoke to me about it instead of siding with someone else against me, as though there’s some sort of petition, and discussing me as though I’m not here. Disagreement is something natural; I’ve come across it and been discouraged, subjected to patronizing treatment, but it’s something we have to get used to. My disagreement amidst the general agreement around here seems to be what bothers you.
“I’m sorry, Jennifer, that almost every comment seems to make you upset or that you have to have the last word on any discussion”
If this, and your idea that I’m always negative and demeaning is what you think of my heart, then you apparently haven’t been paying as much attention as you think.
Thank you Alison.
I have tried to say that nicer before but it didn’t get through and others have tried too.
I said it with such harshness because it is harmful and very disrespectful for an unmarried woman with no children to be giving advice and interpretation of marriage. It is not her place. Older women teach the younger, it’s not the other way around, and for good reason.
You tried to say that more nicely, you mean?
Actually you didn’t. And this statement “I said it with such harshness because it is harmful and very disrespectful for an unmarried woman with no children to be giving advice and interpretation of marriage, It is not her place” shows once again that neither of you pay much attention. I said twice that my intention was not to give advice or tell others how to live their marriages. I’m sorry to tell you, too, that there’s no Biblical passage fobridding younger women from having views that contrast with older women.
People have this idea that this natural order means that someone is oppressed, left-out, forgotten, abused or what have you. The purpose is that everyone has a role according to their talents and abilities and is excepted to fulfill that role. When they do, everyone is taken care of. It isn’t about who’s better than who, it’s about who’s best for what roles so that everyone is at their best in a situation. The “food manager” is no less a man than the “spiritual leader” or vice versa.
I agree, very interesting observation! 😀
Yes! God’s Principles always bring blessing and peace. Have you read the story about their t-shirts? (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/14/the-story-behind-the-chilean-miners-jesus-t-shirts/?hpt=C2)
Kelly, I respect you a lot, but I must be really missing the point of this post, it did not happen naturally. According to some reports there were fistfights, they even joked about caniballism.
Even when the first drill was broken through, some men wanted to send messages, some men wanted potatoes. They all settled on the message that all were alive through consensus. They did not just submit to the shift leader. They were all trained for the same job, but when a life and death crisis came about, their personal strengths came to the fore. Someone had medical training. Even their individual likes were respected. Someone ran for miles inside, another asked for a cigarette. Go figure.
What I am trying to say is this. Respecting authority is good. But blind submission is never good. In a corporation when someone is a CEO or in the military, they have earned that authority based on their education and/or their acccomplishments. There are people who oversee that they do not abuse that authority. There are consequences if they do.
What happens in a family if the man who is a controlling type chooses to gamble or drink away his salary, goes to strip clubs, beats his wife and/or children, sexually abuses them ? Should the wife still stay with him waiting for him to be reformed? Not go to the police ? Some books I have read seem to imply that and so do some versions of submission. Heirarchy and respect are good and valid things and help a soceity and family. Disagreements are different than abise. But there is also abuse. Let us never forget that.
Sylvia,
Good points and good question. I will say that I haven’t heard the reports of fist fights and such, only that the psychologist reported that “their survival was heavily contingent on their willingness to arrange and agree with the hierarchy that took place.” Although I have no doubts about strife among 31 men trapped in a mine!
My point was certainly not this that you said:
“Respecting authority is good. But blind submission is never good.”
When I speak of hierarchy in marriage, I’m not speaking of abusive marriages, which inevitably comes up, because that’s a complicated issue and one that requires enormous amounts of dissecting, counseling, etc., which can’t be done in a succinct blog post.
I’m speaking of a hierarchy God has established and WORKS BEAUTIFULLY among true followers of Christ. Husband is servant-leader not drill sergeant. Wife is willing helper, not doormat.
You said:
“In a corporation when someone is a CEO or in the military, they have earned that authority based on their education and/or their acccomplishments”
In Christian marriage, the authority is given by God based on His authority to order the universe as he pleases.
You said,
“There are people who oversee that they do not abuse that authority. There are consequences if they do.”
When Christians follow God’s Word, husbands do have that accountability too. “The head of every man is Christ..” and he has further established that accountability through the local church. It’s a chain-link benefit of obedience, but when we fail in one area, the rest of the chain is affected. And even when the church fails, God says, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.”
No, real abuse needs to be dealt with. Separation, church accountability, the advocates of godly men who can defend the oppressed, I hold all those things in high esteem and have never suggested that hierarchy in marriage binds a woman to an abusive situation.
Nevertheless, my simply intent was to point out that even NASA professional acknowledge the benefit and necessity of hierarchy among groups of people. That’s all!
Thank you Kelly for the clarification and response.
God’s purposes when man follows faithfully are indeed wonderful. I can absolutely agree with this statement
“I’m speaking of a hierarchy God has established and WORKS BEAUTIFULLY among true followers of Christ. Husband is servant-leader not drill sergeant. Wife is willing helper, not doormat.”
I came to America as you know for higher studies. But I never dated. I was always asked, had opportunities, I was alone, no one would have found out, certainly not my parents who were thousands of miles away. I am always asked why I never dated and chose to go for an arranged marriage which is essentially submitting myself to my parents and elders authority. I have even been ridiculed for that.
The reason I did so was I was terrified of dating. I never dated in my native country, I knew most dating did not lead to marriage or did not start with an assumption of marriage, I did not know anything about the person who asked me for dates other than superfluous reasons. How do I trust them, get into a car with them, go out with them even for a meal or coffee without knowing who they were? After all dating was supposed to get to know them right ? And why would I want to get to know someone who I may never marry? All of them were just college boys and were nice and polite and I was comfortable with them in groups as friends, study partners, lab partners etc. But not comfortable to date because there may be expectations of even kissing which I was not comfortable. I was called a prude many times. But I always knew I was there to study and nothing else.
My parents always prayed for my future spouse from a very young age. And I was encouraged to pray for my future husband from my teens onwards. So did my inlaws and my husband. Both families did a rigorous screening for use of a better word before we were engaged. We talked on the phone, wrote emails and letters.
It is easy to submit to my husband though I work outside, have a post graduate degree because of the kind of man he is. The world says because of my supposed credentials and achievements I should not. But I have never felt that way. It was not easy initially because I had lived on my own for a few years, even had a few people work under me. I am a woman who works outside the home, who has people over me and so submitting to my husband should not be that hard right? But if I did not like a job or my manager, I could leave, but in case of a marriage, divorce was the only way.
What I say now may be arrogant, but I did not trust my husband the way I trusted my parents in the very beginning of our marriage which sounds very wrong, but I did not know him the way I knew my parents. He earned my trust and submission in short by being a servant-leader. And that is why I do not feel like a doormat though the world says a woman with my supposed accomplishments who submits to her husband is.
Not many are lucky or blessed like me. I come from a culture where
women are burnt alive in a horrific practice called dowry. By their husbands. Even some christians. That is the worst I have seen. That is why I am always wary of blind submission which some christians in my native country and America seem to advocate.
I don’t believe in hierarchy in marriage, Sylvia, or that there needed to be one for the miners (I’d focus more on the roles than the idea that there was a ladder-process taking place). Even if there was, it wouldn’t be a permanent set; anytime one tries to fit another into a permanent place of second, instead of ever becoming leader, it becomes stifling, so I find such comparisons moot to the miners’ situation.
The main thing I agree with, that I love in this article, is the importance of working as a team with God as the hierarchal head. Great message.
So as God as our hierarchal head, and us always being second to Him (we will never be God), does that make my life stifling?? Hummm…
I don’t believe having a “head” causes me to feel stifled in any way.
Cathy
I think you know well that I’m describing a relationship with another human, not God.
I do not believe in blind heirarcies too Jennifer. But I obeyed my parents long after I was 18 and an adult and let them choose my husband. I have never regretted it one moment. People find that shocking all the time. I had come to America by myself, lived on my own and accomplished many things. But that does not nor did it ever negate the fact that I trusted my parents more than I did myself to choose a husband for me. It is kind of a heirarchy you can say I suppose.
Same thing while having my children. I read a lot of baby books. My inlaws and my parents came to help me. Initially I resented it thinking I knew better and my book knowledge trumped their experienced ways. In many ways my oldest child paid the price for my arrogance not in dangerous ways, but things like colic, early food etc. I had to swallow my pride especially with my mother-in-law. What I am saying is, sometimes pride and the fact that we know better and we can do it our way stops us from learning new things or bowing down to the wisdom of others. That does not negate what I have accomplished, but choosing to submit to my husbands ways especially when he discusses things with me and listens to me and has changed his decisions many times I find nothing wrong. Does not mean my brain is not working.
I do something similar to a manager in a work place. I am asked for suggestions, sometimes they are taken, sometimes no. I do not think my wishes are not respected then. I find nothing wrong in submitting myself to my beloved husband. I tell him my concerns, suggestions etc. But the head of our household is my husband and I have no problems with it. If he was a dictator and took decisions arbitarily or put my children or myself in danger it would be different, but he is a good man and I trust him with my entire being to be the final authority in our family.
I think people like you are happy because you truly follow the Biblical design, which is more about partnership than hierarchy. God must have had a hand in choosing your husband, hence your happiness with him.
I would hope we all agree God had a design in choosing our husbands because otherwise it is a very scary proposition for me.
I do not do labels, but just to be clear Jennifer, my marriage is not a partnership the way the world or feminism defines it. I do not look for 50-50. I work outside the home, but I also stayed at home when my children were little. If it comes between a choice between my job and my husband’s job, I am very clear it is my job that would go. I would resign. My husband is the head of our family just like the Bible says and God designed. I took a vow at the altar, before God and in front of the congregation that I will obey my husband. My husband did not have that part of the vow. Give it whatever label you will, but I submit/obey my husband just like God wants me to and if the world thinks I am idiot for doing so despite my many accomplishments so be it.
I don’t believe in marital obedience, but most happy marriages have some aspect of working together in any case. I know God has a hand in all good marriages, but arranged marriages can be tricky. You’re very blessed in that aspect.
Jennifer,
I know it’s pointless to say this, not sure why I am, but still feel compelled to point you to truth in love…when you say,
“I don’t believe in marital obedience”
Do you think that statement (or all the interpretation gymnastics) will hold water when you answer on Judgement Day, “Why you didn’t love Him”?
“If you love me, you will keep my commands.”
We believe what He has said or we don’t. There ARE some areas of Scripture that are not clearly-defined…we all hold differing views on eschatology and various others doctrines. But this one is too clear too many times And since it is the very picture of the gospel, I would think it a very big deal to get right.
A threat of God’s wrath? Kelly, do you realize I feel as strongly as you do about this? I believe in submission, in defering to your husband out of love, not authority. It’s probably very similar to what you think, just differs on the principle of “why”.
I would be thrilled to know that we agree. There is only one principle of “why”…because God said so. That’s the authority that I willingly obey. That is not offensive. But you constantly oppose Scripture by saying things like, “I don’t believe in obeying your husband” or “that hierarchy stuff”, etc. So either you do or you don’t believe that God has given us the clear commands from Scripture to “obey” and “submit” and “respect” and we do that willingly, and in return, our husband lays down his life for us. I don’t understand the circles about this clear issue, that’s all.
Kelly, I love and respect you, and look up to you. I don’t even like displeasing you by disagreeing here. But maybe it’s time for me to leave for a while. Not only do I seem to be breaking some very sensitive skin around here, but this talk and the weight of it is very discouraging. I should probably spend healing time for a while with my teachers, the ones who taught me the truth of egalitarianism, and who do not fear that those who disagree will face the wrath of hell. I wish I could tell you everything, just so you’d know where I’m coming from. It’s all connected: Christian men are told to submit to others, and their wives are the closest. Giving up their lives for their women is the root of submission, of sacrifice in love. The importance of focusing on servanthood instead of hierarchy goes right into the church, and the Bible’s words about the early church, where everyone ministered and shared instead of one ruling over all others. Where women and men served roles of equal authority entirely because everyone was considered a servant and ministers were not thought of as “rulers”. Where Christ is recognized as being One of equal authority with His Father, instead of letting hierarchal human-think poison even the Trinity (whose “hierarchy” is actually a newer belief). Books like “Rethinking the Wineskin”, “Who is your Covering”, and “Men and Women in the Church” taught me and even blew away my feminist desires of empowerment. The ironic thing is, Kelly, that sometimes I say too much, but also too little; sometimes I fear sharing the actual words and information I’ve read because I fear it will be threatened, and I fear it will be threatened because I’m an anxious person. Because I’m a coward.
I will continue to read here and try to use discernment in my words, overcoming the sometimes overwhelming desire to constantly spread the truths I’ve learned, but right now I need some outside perspective. Thank you for your guidance.
Just remember, Jennifer, that because much of the gospel is “that mystery”, we can get tangled up in words and miss the mystery. All that you said of servanthood is true. Marriage is such a state. My husband is THE SERVANT of our home, leading, by his servant example. Using the terminology of Scripture (head, obedience, respect, reverence) and being a willing helper who submits to his authority if/when it is needed doesn’t change that. Oh there are men who will, sinful men not following Christ. But the mystery of those who know Him…they will obey what He says and trust that mystery to prove itself, despite the fear we have of the verbiage involved. I know you are sincere. And that is precisely why I keep answering you, keep encouraging you to look to Scripture.
See, it was very disheartening to hear about your plans to “go to those who taught me egalitarianism”. No…that’s not what you need to do. You need to go to the Lord, with His word in hand, and say, “Speak Lord, your servant hears.”
That’s precisely what I’m going to do, Kelly. I’ve heard the complimentarian side; balance is now needed by looking at the other side. And even here, I don’t mean to imply that they’re feministic, or the polar opposite of your side, the ying to your yang. They offer me extensive Scripture, and background information has proved vital in Scriptural passages more than once. I’m telling you what I’m convicted is truth, but I have not said, like you, “What will happen if you don’t obey??” because even though I’m convicted by this, I don’t think you’re in danger of Judgement if you’re wrong. I don’t know if this is grace on my part, or cowardice. The Bible speaks of submission for both spouses and the deeper I look, the clearer it is. If nothing else, I’d highly recommend you read “Who is your Covering?”, which is about servanthood in general, not gender-roles. I’m not trying to minister to you by saying this; as a younger woman, I don’t think that’s appropriate, but that book taught me some things I didn’t expect to learn either. If the focus was more about mutual love and respect, I might not have a problem with it, but what you see here goes into how you see everything else.
Idk, though; maybe our different beliefs are far closer here than we think, just like I think Arminiasm and Calvinism are sometimes separated by less than it appears (we’ll probably find in heaven that there’s a bigger connection than we thought). I think wives’ and husbands’ “roles” are defined more by relationships and natural differences than some commend of female obedience; if men lead, maybe it’s just because of natural design, yet women are taught to “lead by example” too. We do the same things often in different ways. Maybe it’s both more complicated and more simple than I think; I don’t know. I think it has complex layers, deeper than black and white, even if the surface pattern is the same, and then all marriages are different too. For each couple, both the Godly truth and their individual truth may take a lifetime to learn. That’s what I intend to spend my life doing. The way you expressed it elsewhere is my favorite way of expressing the root of it: two equals, one with my hands lifting him up (or something like that).
Jennifer,
I believe you truly are searching. As I have read so many of your comments, I hear turmoil and striving in your spirit. You have read and studied so many different books from so many different people. But the danger is that it is very easy to be deceived if you are not first grounded in Scripture. Would you be willing to take a season of only studying Scripture and allow the Lord to speak directly to you through His Word? Until you are immersed in Scripture, you don’t (none of us do)have the discernment to cut through vain theories and explanations. I really believe the Lord would reveal Himself to you in amazing ways if you gave Him a season of undivided attention. Don’t ask man’s opinions. Don’t read man’s interpretations. Just focus on sitting at His feet and allow Him to speak directly to you. I can tell you, you won’t be disappointed. You will never receive clarity and direction from any person that can equal what He longs to reveal of Himself to you.
You are very kind, Antbed. Thank you for seeing the truth in my spirit. Fact is, I wasn’t experiencing any real turmoil in this matter until tonight or so. It may just be my natural (or unnatural) anxiety that pushed me to fear Judgement again, in case I’m wrong, instead of any real doubt on this matter. I know we must be grounded in Scripture, and I can generally tell when gymnastics are being done with it. But it’s also important to know the background of things. I used to think God thought people who were lukewarm about Him were disgusting, like vomit; how would that make a potential seeker feel? Knowing the background of that passage revealed its truth to me. And the passage about a camel getting through the eye of a needle more easily than a rich man to heaven? It’s IMPOSSIBLE for a camel to do that, as we know, so what a frightening prophecy about rich people! Unless..? Someone on another blog revealed that there’s a wall or structure of some kind in the Middle East called the Needle, and an opening through called the Eye. The only way a camel could get through it would be for it to drop any saddles or possessions off its back, get on its knees, and crawl through. It IS possible for a camel to get through the Eye of the Needle! How about that? And what a perfect allegory: in order to get into heaven, we must drop our possessions and get on our knees! This is what I’m talking about: background info is important.
I was sitting outside my shower a little while ago and pondering this, and the question I asked regarding complimentarian views of marriage was, “Gymnastics should never be necessary for interpretation, MOST Bible passages are clear and need either little or no extra help. BUT, if there does prove to be different meaning, different words than I thought in a passage, am I not required to look into it, to regard it very seriously?” Indeed, it’s not easy to change something you have believed for most of your life, and this is true for conservatives as well as liberals. When I spoke to Kelly in my last post, Ant, I was feeling pretty peaceful then actually; I was thinking marriage is complex in a wonderful way, and I trust God; He’s never let me down in a searching quandary before. But another problem is that there are differences even in complementarianism: do you believe husbands are meant to lead and wives obey, but that it’s still balanced teamwork with both members serving, and that men and women still have individual purposes? Or, do you believe that woman was made PRIMARILY for man, that his vision is God’s vision and her part is to fulfill her man’s vision, that this is her main reason for living? This is what the Vision Forum says, times ten, and I just can’t stomach it (no insult to them intended, Kelly, I’m just trying to express the depth of their beliefs in patriarchy). On the other hand, complimentarians like Elisabeth Elliot and John Piper have a much more refined view, believing it’s a partnership with a gentle captain and that wives still have solitary purposes. Do you believe that husbands were always meant to be obeyed, but that God’s words “Your husband shall rule over you” were a result of the curse, predicting that man’s good leadership would become harsh? Or do you believe man was always meant to be king of the union and that it was God’s plan from the start for men to RULE over their wives? Some prefer this latter, iron-fisted interpretation. And, as I said before, it goes into EVERYTHING else you view regarding men and women. People like Elisabeth Elliot believe women can be independent out of marriage and go off on their own, as missionaries for example. Piper believes the same, as evidenced by his poem “The Prodigal’s Sister”. People like those at the Vision Forum, on the other hand, believe women are NEVER independent; they must always have a male head. If single, they must obey their fathers. NO single female missionaries, no sir.
Complimentarianism, Antbed, can range from sweet and gentle men to subtle tyrants who preach that Jesus died so men could be kings again (like Adam was meant to be). There are SO many different branches of it! And the different rules each branch gives to women, my gosh: some say a wife should obey and rarely even question, others say it’s fine to question if it’s done politely. Some say women may not teach men in church; others say women may not teach men EVER, or EVER have any civic position of leadership. (Luckily, this is now moot for me, since I have NO question about the church-roles thing, but I mention it because, like I said before, one’s views of women in marriage affect all their other views of women). And the funny thing is, Antbed, some of them try to make so many EXCEPTIONS to the rules of women leading; some, for example, say it’s never ok for women to teach a man..unless there’s a man there to supervise (no such thing is said in the Bible, btw). Some say it’s never ok for there to be a female ruler..unless there’s a male somewhere above her. See how far it goes? There’s so much more disagreement and difference in complimentarianism than in egalitarianism; the one thing all comps seem to agree on is that men may tell women what they CAN do. So here’s the quandary: if I WERE to accept complimentarianism, WHICH branch of it would I even choose?? The mild man-as-servant-leader type? The women-are-made-primarily-for-men (but still oh-so-valuable) type? Or the women-must-wear-hair-long-and-cover-it-to-show-obedience-to-their-man type? (Of course, maybe all this is why you told me to just read my Bible 😉
That’s why, sometimes, when I read the Bible in English or otherwise, I need HELP! That’s why I don’t mind looking into original translations; sometimes they’re the missing link, not merely a crutch for the position you’d like to believe (God keep me from EVER using them thus).
At the same time, though, when it comes to marriage at least, I think labels are the least helpful thing. I really don’t want to call Kelly’s marriage, or anyone else’s, one thing or another, comp or egal. And unless I see real abuse, I don’t want them to reform their marriages either, even if I were the most die-hard egal in the world. Why? Because, though it’s not my place to judge anyway, I think they’re just fine. If love, respect, sacrifice and obeying God are in the marriage, it doesn’t matter whether you follow what you call a “comp” or “egal” pattern; I really don’t think it does. I think there are some very basic rules for marriage, but that it needs be less rigid than many comps or egals might think, in order to work. And that’s what gave me a sense of peace tonight.
In any case, though, you are right; I’ve been needing to read my Bible with God for a while now. Reading passages from the Bible in other books is always so refreshing, so it’s about time I get back to the Book itself. Sorry for this load of a post!! I’ve had a lot on my mind, and your sweet encouragement inspired me to try and express it, both to you, Kelly, and myself. Thanks 🙂
I’m not sure I understand where you “left things” in your response. Is God enough for you? Just Him? Are you willing to let Him have your complete and undivided attention, refusing to ask ANYONE else, read anything else for a season, the duration of which you leave open to be defined by Him? Reading your response was like trying to run in circles, round and round, dizzier and dizzier. That is NOT the condition of our spirits when we truly allow Him to speak to us. If you look hard enough, you can always find an interpretation by man of any Scripture you want to find to agree and give you permission for not just sitting at His feet. It comes back to the two trees in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were never told they couldn’t eat from the Tree of Life (Jesus). The tree of the knowledge of good and evil offered the illusion of power and wisdom, but apart from Christ, that tree brings death. The Lord gave us everything we need for life and godliness. It does not depend on man in any way, shape, or form. He will personally teach you through the washing of the Word over your spirit. Don’t be deceived by man’s wisdom. It is not enough for you. You are entitled to hear it from the Author of the Book. There is no need for anyone between you and Him.
Well, you don’t have to read my comments if they’re confusing for you, Antbed. This is a confusing issue. I will resume reading my Bible, which I neglected, but I’m not going to totally shut off contact with any teachers or put the immense pressure on myself that I did last night. It’s better to read and seek with peace.
Thank you, Kelly. Powerfully put.
Awesome point!
I have preached to some who say they could never be a Christian because of all the wrong that has been done while citing the name of God. We, as Christians, realize this is a pathetic response, and those acting in that manner were not acting on the Lord’s behalf, only stealing His name. And we are all still Christians despite some large groups abusing His name.
How is it that many cannot see the correlation when we deny the need to follow the BIBLICAL roles? “Because some have abused it it is not for me.” Why is it we have the clarity to separate sensationalism from truth when it comes to our faith, but unable to separate it when it comes to matters of our heart and obedience? The answer is pretty simple: Anger, resentment and pride.
Excellent observation. Hierarchy seems to be the recipe for success in all areas of life thanks to the Lord’s design.
As parents we have biblical authority over our children. They are to obey us. But we also work together as a team, and there is mutual respect for each other. So there is both hierarchy and team work in a family, but without the hierarchy there would be chaos.
Jennifer,
I do not know if you will ever read this and this is a reply to your post to ‘I live in an Antbed’. I do feel compelled to post. I could not find the reply button hence the separate post.
First of all, please accept my apologies if I was rather abrupt with you. You have grown up in America, I did not so I do not understand exactly where you are coming from like most people who post here. I do get the searching you are doing however.
See I never saw a conflict in submitting to my husband or my value as a woman or the conflict between feminism and the church. What I can tell you is my experience and what I believe in.
Growing up, I was never stifled because I was a girl. I was never told to ‘keep sweet’ and hide my feelings or pretend they do not exist because I was a girl. I was always taught to respect both men and women and my elders. I was always taught to obey my parents and elders. There were always consequences if I disobeyed. I was taught to think independently, question things I do not understand and make up my own mind. I have even preached to women because in my native country because orthodox women will not show their faces to even their father-in-law or brother-in-law. How else can these women be reached other than by other women? My dreams were respected, but always within the frame work of the family. That applied to all members of my family including our parents. I did not think my lot in life was to make my father’s and brother’s dreams come and not have dreams of my own which many people seem to confuse for submission. I do not think a woman cannot travel alone or not be educated or dress a certain way. I think that is not biblical and some people’s version of control. That is almost a parallel to the Taliban or scary societies to me.
But does that mean we should never submit to anyone ? What does it mean to submit. The dictionary defines it as ‘to give over or yield to the power or authority of another’.
Look around you, we submit to authority all the time. I submit my children to public school when I send them there, I give over the authority of the quality of the food I consume and feed my children to the FDA since I do not grow everything we eat. I give over authority of the money I give as taxes to the government to spend as they see fit. I have a job, but since I work in a corporate structure, the very existence of that job is very much inherent on the performance of the CEO and the decisions he or she makes. Male or female if you are not in business for yourself, you submit yourself to someone over you. There is no getting around hierarchy or submission.
There is an element of trust and submission in all we do. We have to be vigilant to see there are no abuses. Even in running a country there are two ways. A dictatorship where it is just one person thinking they know everything and a democracy where there are advisors. But even in a democracy, the final authority is with one man. The President. We have checks and balances to see he does not abuse the power given to him which is not there in a dictatorship.
Same applies to a family for me. I advise my husband, but the final authority in our family lies with him. We cannot have two competing masters because whose vision counts, a husband or a wife. And it does even in a family, especially in family. Whose word will be final ? A coin toss to be ‘fair’. It just does not work that way in a company, country and especially in a family. It will create conflict.
Just because some men abuse something does not mean I have to always be hypervigilant to the point of being paranoid and the first time my husband takes a decision other than what I think is right, scream abuse or oppression. Which is what extreme feminism seems to be doing to me.
In a marriage, both a husband and wife make sacrifices. My husband chose to get married at a young age when many of his peers were buying the latest cars, gadgets and travelling around the world. Most every reasonable person would definitely call sitting at home with a sick child no fun. Even now with the amount of money he makes if he were not married or have children, he would have very nice things which to many equates success and fun. But he chose to have a family. So did I. It is not easy. It means taking responsibility for someone other than yourself. But the rewards far outweigh the sacrifices.
My version of submission is this. I will advise, but I will not be offended if my advice is not taken. I will not keep score to the number of times my husband has not ‘listened to me’. I will not make my husband feel guilty with tears, pray against him for ‘God to make him see wisdom’ which to me means ‘God make him see my point of view’. I will instead pray everyday for God to give him wisdom to steer our family in the direction God wants him to.
I trust and submit to strangers to teach my children, the safety of the food I eat, keep me safe from invasion, job security and so on. Why would I not trust my own beloved husband with whom I share my body, share children and so on to be the captain of our family when he has given me no reason not to, but has been in every way a God honoring man. If I cannot do that with every fibre of my being and joyfully, I should not be married to him. It is as simple as that for me.
“But does that mean we should never submit to anyone?”
I never said this, Sylvia. We’re told to submit to others all the time, and our spouses ESPECIALLY. It doesn’t always have to do with obedience or authority, but the natural servant-state God calls us to. Of course there’s need for authority in government structure and jobs, but not among spouses. I disagree about there being two masters of the house. Of course, the concept of submission/sacrifice is that your spouse is “master” of your heart, always to come first.
I never for an instant thought that you’d have to be among those who cut women short, Sylvia. As I said before, if the marriage has love, sacrifice, respect and God, it will flourish regardless of which “pattern” you choose, whether of authority or not.
I will not throw Bible verses at you Jennifer, but Ephesians 5 is very clear on how a husband and wife should behave in a biblical marriage and who is the head.
We can argue a lot on theology, homeschooling, public schooling, the role of women in church, education of women, working outside the home etc. But unless we are mistaken about St.Paul himself not receiving instruction from God about this and this passage being ‘anti-woman’ there is no two ways about it for me.
One can reduce a marriage into just a battle of wills for just about anything. It does not have to be big. Compromise is very good. The thing is in a marriage it cannot be 50-50. It cannot always be ‘fair’. Even in a marriage as you say with love, sacrifice, respect and God, who will have the ultimate voice if the husband and wife do not agree ? And in a marriage such as mine where a husband discusses things with his wife and asks for advice, there will be and have been times, more than I can count. In our house and marriage, it is my husband. Call it obey/submit/hierarchy whatever you will. Just like my voice as a parent carries more weight than my child.
“Even in a marriage as you say with love, sacrifice, respect and God, who will have the ultimate voice if the husband and wife do not agree?”
They can work it out like adults.
“Just like my voice as a parent carries more weight than my child”
And that right there is my most despised bane of complimentarianism: comparing a wife’s voice to a child’s.
‘Work it out like adults’
I have seen people ‘work it out like adults’ to the point of divorce Jennifer. Just to be clear, we are not talking a man who is beating, sexual abuse,cheating, drinking, gambling, verbal abuse, passive aggressive manipulation or any such thing, but an individual who is so full of pride that they think it will somehow diminish their worth or value as a person or their accomplishments if they just gave in. To their husband of all people. This same person would have no other choice but not to behave in such a manner in a workplace. They would be fired otherwise. But why would they not extend the same grace to a good spouse ? And this is the thing that is baffling to me about feminism.
You may ask what about a husband and why should he not give in ? See that is where biblical heirarchy and a marriage where who is the head of the house is clear to me. If something is stalemated, I give in, get over my pride because I obey/submit. It does not happen every single time. Or he would not listen to my advice the next time. I do not think my value as a woman or accomplishments are anyway diminished by it. But the vision for a family is very important and for me it is my husband’s vision as God ordained it.
As for complementariansim or whatever you referenced, I think you are smart enough to know that I did not compare a wife’s voice to a child and that comparison is ridiculous to me. Children obeying their parents and a wife submitting to her husband is different. If a man treats his wife and children the same that is a dictatorship, but a wife and a husband who discuss things, a wife who has the age and life experience to advise a husband, but the same wife choosing to obey/submit to her Godly husband who is in every way deserving according to God’s word is not the same as a child who does not have the life experience. At least according to me.
Of course a woman should give in, Sylvia. This is what the Bible says, this is why I’ve said both spouses are to put each other first. The difference is in “why” we do so. I will give in to my husband because I am bound to him, subject to him and I love him. NOT because I see him as the king of us two who knows best.
“You may ask what about a husband and why should he not give in? See that is where biblical heirarchy and a marriage where who is the head of the house is clear to me”
There is where I don’t agree. The Bible NEVER says the husband is never to “give in” because he’s in charge or head of the house. Instead, he’s to love her, die for her, cherish her as his own flesh. That doesn’t mean merely promising to die for her literally one day if it ever comes up; it means he dies to his own flesh for her and puts her first, as both spouses are meant to do for each other.
“As for complementariansim or whatever you referenced, I think you are smart enough to know that I did not compare a wife’s voice to a child and that comparison is ridiculous to me”
I’m glad to hear it. I’ve heard a woman’s submission compared to a child’s by comps more times than I could say.
My do not give in to my husband because he is ‘king’ or he is ‘better than me’ Jennifer. I give in because in this case, I take ‘Wives submit to your husband’ as I should give in. I consider myself equal to every man and woman both when I was studying and people I work with. But I choose to submit to my father, mother even now and husband because I am child of my parents and the wife of my husband. I do not do it blindly, but if it comes to a stalemate, I give in. I believe that is what God wants me to do.
Well, I hope you know you’re not required to obey your parents. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Sylvia. You’re one of the strongest and most gracious ladies I’ve spoken to, and I hope you know I respect you deeply.
Sylvia, what you describe is the type of authority, obedience, and submission I believe in, and my husband as well. Regardless of points of doctrine, it is the type of submission I see in action in families like Kelly’s and others.
I know a *few* people who are very extreme in their understanding of submission. They annoy me too. 😉 But they are not a majority in the complementarian or submission viewpoints.
Jennifer,
May I say in love, your writing often seems like you are trying to win and I sometimes wonder why you read this blog when it just seems (by your posts) to cause you strife.
You have been given some wise counsel by Word Warrior and Antbed. Seek the Lord through His Word. He will meet you there. I often have to cry out to the Lord for understanding and He is faithful to guide me. It is so different and amazing when He speaks directly to me than when I hear teaching from another human (though I think we need that too!)
Something that may be getting in the way here is experience. Maybe hearing about a marriage where the wife submits to a husband in the way that is described on this blog sounds oppressive but it actually works out happily in real day to day life. Seriously, I feel so blessed in my marriage that I cry tears of joy sometimes. There are times where it is hard but the obedience to the Lord brings peace that is more wonderful than getting my way.
May you feel the Lord’s presence and love today,
Mrs. S
Thanks Mrs. S. I don’t want to “win”. I just want to be heard and taken seriously instead of viewed as a silly younger sister who scraped her knees. I am getting “human voices” on this blog as much as anywhere else, clamoring for me to believe something, and I intend to read the Bible. When I do, it will be because I’m supposed to, not with the “Oh my God, I may have been wrong about EVERYTHING, will you set me straight God?” fearful attitude I had last night.
Jennifer,
There was something I read in your reply to Mrs. S that is a common “mis-teaching” in my opinion among the newer age Christianity of the “grace movement” (meaning, grace taken to a distorted level, ignoring man’s sin).
It’s the FEAR of being afraid. Scripture speaks quite literally about the fear of the Lord and how that fear helps to keep our feet on the path of holiness. It’s a good fear to question, “Oh dear, do I have this right?” I visit that emotion often and I thank God for it. It’s not a state of “wrong thinking” to feel that. It is precisely why I asked you the question I did which evoked that thought in you. We WILL stand before the Judgement seat. Do you remember the verse, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord’, and I will say to them ‘I never knew you’ “?
If that doesn’t strike fear at the very core of our hearts, nothing will. That’s not to make us question our salvation; there will be things for which we “give an account” that won’t condemn us to hell, but as He has spoken so plainly, we are foolish not to listen. The words, “If You love me you will obey my commands” have heavy implications. We had better be sure we are reading with a child-like understanding, His Word to understand His commands. (Sometimes, if I want to make sure I’m understanding a passage, I’ll read it to my children and ask them to tell me what they think it says–I truly want to see it as a child.)
Some things are not so clear, it’s true. We walk with fear and trembling to discern truth with the help of His Spirit. But what He has revealed so clearly will stand as truth on that day, despite how passionately we felt about our interpretations. In DEEP LOVE do I say those things to you, my sister! His Word and HIS alone will be all that’s left standing.
Hi, Kelly. Your honesty and love are two of the main reasons I look up to you. I think it has been remarkably clear; I think the stone-solid way spouses are to put each other first is a firm command of God, one to prostrate oneself over. I don’t think treating the husband as king has really any part in it; it’s about both spouses focusing on putting each other first.
I read a lot of Scripture last night, and it seems to be clearer. Indeed, we’ve all probably made it more complicated than need be at some point. Today, I did look at one teacher’s post elsewhere about whether the husband was “king”, and the clarity of the truth came out again. Then, as I stood from the computer, I remembered the Scripture’s clarity in telling spouses to be totally for each other, serving each other. I then felt God strongly remind me, “It is good to know the meaning of marriage and relationship roles. But as a wife, you are to focus on what YOU should be doing, not him. Your purpose will be to serve him.” Again, I felt the urge to prostrate myself to Him in this, such clear and vital commands. It is each spouse’s job to put the other first, to focus on THEIR personal roles, and this will be my job too. If our husbands treat us badly, we’ll know it; there’s no need to look for fault in the meantime or measure everything he does against a stick. As God and the Scripture reminded me, my job will be to focus on MY job. This is love, God’s love in marriage, and it’s binding just as our Covenant to Him is.
As for the matter of fear, Kelly, you are right; a loud conscience is good and it has me on a short leash when it comes to using liberties, believe me! But my fear is often different; it is the often irrational and weakening result of anxiety, OCD and aspergers. It’s something that causes me to cling to a matter and worry, to agonize over different things God’s already spoken clearly to me about. He’s very patient; He’s answered repeatedly, sometimes to tell me, “Child, you know the answer. I have already given it to you.” Other times there’s no answer, which is generally either His way of telling me I know already or that He wishes me to seek it out personally, rather than asking Him to spell everything out right then and there. I do trust Him, and that trust, even in the midst of my sometimes damnable fear, is what gets me through life 🙂
It was enjoyable reading the Bible last night and, though I did watch part of a teaching video to re-examine the background of the headcovering issue, most of the passages I read by myself, including those of marriage. I have to say, I had no idea Paul was such a character! It’s been a while since I’ve even read extended excerpts by him. My favorite lines by him were,
“I wish all men were as me, but if you marry, you do not sin”.
“People who marry run into much trouble, and I wish to spare you from this!”
“If a woman’s husband dies, she may remarry. In my judgement she’s fine as she is, and I think I have the Holy Spirit within me too.”
Dear Jennifer,
Beloved daughter of the King, His precious one: We love you. We want to only speak blessings to you. Please hear everything in that context in case the words don’t quite convey our hearts, as your sisters. I hear this love in so many of the words written to you in this place. I have been praying for you, sweet one, that His Perfect Love will cast out fear. I don’t mean the fear that Kelly is referring to. I mean the fear that comes from the evil one. The holy fear of the Lord brings us closer to Him. The fear that I am praying against for you is the fear that could push you, or any of us, away from Him. May we all be lovers of the Truth embodied in Christ and seek after It as for hidden treasure. I pray that your spirit may rest tonight and that you may hear Him singing over you as you sleep.
Thank you, sweet older sister 🙂 Your words have blessed greatly 🙂 Most of the women here do indeed show love and they are blessings to me. Thank you!