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“F emininity was designed to display truths about the Gospel of Christ. An attitude of submission and a whole life-posture of support was created by God to be a living picture of His relationship to His own people. When we choose to live apart from that design, we distort the Gospel-picture and miss the entire point of being a woman! Womanhood exists to tell us the cosmic truth of the Gospel.” Mary Kassian
57 comments
Beautiful!! Isn’t it interesting that the feminine role for women has come under such attack? It has been labeled as “weak”, “subservient”, etc. The Truth is it is filled with true strength and an incredible power to influence.
So a woman’s life is just a symbol? It doesn’t have value for its own sake?
And why does being a woman have to have a particular point? What about the point of Kelly being Kelly or Elizabeth being Elizabeth?
Being a woman is great. I enjoy my woman’s body and I enjoy using it for sport, sex, work and baby-making. But it doesn’t follow that I (or any woman) ought to submit to a husband just because he can probably lift more — any more than he ought to submit to me because of my body’s incontrovertibly better ability to take a fertilized egg and make it into a baby.
Being a symbol of the very church of Christ is not “just a symbol”…I’d say it’s the most incredible representation in which a person could hope to find her existence.
Our lives have value because we were created in His image to fulfill His purposes. My value is found in whatever He says gives it value. “I am not my own, I am bought with a price.” “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk in them.”
Being a woman has a point because everything has a point to our Creator. For the sake of discussion, may I ask if you are a follower of Christ? If not, I wouldn’t expect you to adhere to what Scripture has to say about all this. But if you are, I pray the Lord would reveal what a glorious design you have in Him.
“But it doesn’t follow that I ought to submit to a husband”…
Actually, yes it does, if you are a Christian. There is no amount of “what I feel” that changes what God has said. And if you would get past how that word makes you *feel*, you would realize it’s not a station of subservience. But as Kassian said, just like the church isn’t in a subservient position to Christ (otherwise, why would Christ have given His life for her?) the wife demonstrates all the glory of His bride in her “life-posture of support”.
That’s a great explanation of marriage, Kelly. But good heavens, of course the church is subservient to Christ. We are servants and Christ died anyway for us; He is always above us.
Hi, Elizabeth. I disagree with these ladies about the root of submission’s meaning, but one thing we all know here is that a person IS her own person. Women are individuals, just like men, and will live their lives as such. Some have home businesses; some write, like Kelly, to inspire; some are missionaries, some are doctors or nurses, some are artists. None of this negates the beauty of marriage, or the portrait it creates of God’s love and sacrifice.
I used to disagree with submission too. Part of it was because I saw that role abused by my dad (not physically abusive), part of it was because I was prideful, but all of it had to do with the fact I didn’t know who I was in Christ, who I was to Him, and what it meant to be His (and I was a Christian). Now that I know I have invaluable worth because He made me, that I am His face to others on Earth because He died for me, and my works (pride) are filthy rages to Him, I have a new identity.
If the Lord tells me me to give to a homeless man, and actually hug him, I am a sucker and unwise in the world’s eyes, but I am the hands and feet to the Lord. If I don’t end an argument in my favor or win in the world’s eyes, but I was obedient to the Lord, I am successful in His eyes. If I take a “lowly” state in the world’s eyes and submit and affirm my husband while I stay home and home school, I am honoring the only One who matters. ALL these things have one meaning to the Lord and quite another to the world.
Submission does not mean less than any more than the meekness of Christ meant wimp. Our vernacular has changed and the meanings of words have taken on connotations (implied meaning) which were never intended. If we look at just the denotation (dictionary definition), we wouldn’t rebel so violently within our own heart.
To be who we are meant to be by God, not others, is freeing and liberating. My submission looks different than others, I am sure, because every family is different, every husband needs a different kind of helpmeet. I replace the light switches, gutted a bathroom and re-did it myself, fix sprinkler stuff (as in I am doing it this Sat), handle the money and even hand out our allowance per week. All this, because that is where my husband needs help. AND in His humbleness and servanthood to me (as Christ is to the Church), my dh knows our weaknesses and strengths and is wise enough to allow me the authority in the areas where I am best. JUST AS I AM WISE ENOUGH AND SMART ENOUGH to hand him the overall headship because the Bible says so.
My husband surprises me all the time (this morning too) and cleans the entire kitchen even the 20 min process of the granite countertops because he loves me, not because that is his job. His service to me makes me want to serve him more. Just as my service to him makes him want to serve me more.
I am not less, just different. He is not better, just different.
To hit on a “hot button” point of submission: If we disagree about something, we wait until we are in agreement. Christ never forces the church to do anything, He guides and convicts (by Holy Spirit), but never forces, or everyone would be a Christian. Although if he said “we have to do this, I feel it cannot wait,” I would say OK. But it has never happened in 11 years of marriage. (wanted to address that since it is always brought up)
To want to be someone who you are made to be is bondage to a lie. And slavery is degrading, pitiful and horrid. It is not hte place I choose to be.
To want to be someone you were made NOT to be…. I have excellent proof reading skills…..I am sure some will jump on that!
So well-said, Kelly L!
Hello,
Have read this site extensively over the years, but have never commented. Don’t exactly feel like I need to now, but I would like to, if that is ok?
I live in England, and wherever in the world we do live, the gospel is the same for everyone.
I’ve been married 23 years, and know both what it means to submit and to not submit.
If you have problems with submission, why marry?
Genesis 3v16, ‘…your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’
From then till now, nothing has changed. God still looks for the man to be the head of the house. Although, some men are only the head of the house because the wife lets him be. Sad, but true.
I’ve said enough.
God bless.
“Genesis 3v16, ‘…your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’”
Wives are to submit, but this passage was predicting a fallen man’s cruel wont to dominate, NOT a woman’s need to submit.
What an honor to be used as an image of His relationship to His people! How can we buck at the thought of submission when we realize God is using us like that? Wow!!
If you have problems with submission, why marry?
You know Dora, I ask this question all the time. There is an alternative, even for the Christian woman. She can remain single. Of course, we all have to submit to someone, and I’d much rather submit to the man who loves me with all his heart, has my best interest at heart, and proves it every day.
Actually, yes it does, if you are a Christian. There is no amount of “what I feel” that changes what God has said.
Once again you confuse interpretation with fact. That’s why I always want to give you a hug! It’s so, so, so sad.
Miri, that would-be coddling tone is not appealing. Kelly’s perfectly fine and more than fulfilled in her life.
Miri,
I think it’s precious that you want to hug me, but patronizing isn’t necessary. What is “sad” about calling the Word of God fact?
The fact I referred to that you are defining as ” my interpretation” is Elizabeth’s comment:
And I answered “Actually, yes it does, if you are a Christian. There is no amount of “what I feel” that changes what God has said.”
Just as a reminder of what God said since you are questioning fact vs. interpretation:
Now if you are able to reinterpret that and accuse me of confusing facts, it is you who needs the hug 😉
Maybe just a post on “what is fact and what is interpretation” is in order?
“Maybe just a post on “what is fact and what is interpretation” is in order?”
YES! I hope it is your next post!!
yes! yes! yes! please! please! please!
How exactly do you interpret it then, Miri?
Kelly, I should blow this popsicle stand with all it’s laundry and come give you a hug today myself! 😉
😀 C’mon!
This excerpt from Kay Arthur, posted on Unlocking Femininity is a timely word for this discussion:
AMEN, sister! (You need a “like” button, Kelly-girl.. ha-ha!)
Actually, make that an “amen” button.. 😀
Eve wasn’t a feminist. Eve was an idiot.
The first feminists weren’t going on and on about hating/distrusting God. They were tired of men abusing their power, their status, their sexuality, their everything, and these first feminists stood up against it. It’s not because they wanted sissy lapdogs; they wanted respectable, upstanding, moral, and loving men/husbands. It was a society that catered to men’s faintest whims and laughed at women’s most heartfelt pleas.
Do you want to know why we have rules against sexual propositions in the workplace? Do you want to know why women can vote? Do you want to know why you can apply for careers as something other than secretary, phone operator, teacher, and nurse? It is because of the work that these women, many of whom were wives and mothers, laid down.
Before you slam the movement, you may want to make sure that you’re not reaping the benefits of women who were beaten, raped, and jeered at for fighting for your daily rights.
Khaliah,
I’ve studied the movement a great deal; I’m not ignorant to the many facets of the feminist movement. I don’t deny there were some sincere efforts made by sincere women to address abuse. But overall, the movement has gone far beyond that. I coming at the issue from a biblical argument, and as such, I don’t consider it a “victory” that women can hold whatever careers they choose. (I actually consider it a disgrace that we have women running for political office and there are a great deal other atrocities that I think have come from the “career liberation”, namely, that in order to achieve that status, the role of wives and mothers MUST be diminished, as we have seen abroad in our culture.) I think women already have the most noble and exalted role on earth; it can’t be improved upon.
Defend abuse all day. But you won’t win points with me praising many of the other “advances” the feminist movement have made. (I think it’s dumb that women had to fight for the right to vote when a household vote worked perfectly well. Now I have to get out every election when before, my husband could have just made our household vote. If we don’t even agree on major political issues, we shouldn’t be married.)
Thanks Kelly I love the quote. I would love to paint it on my wall. Such a great reminder that we women are a reflection(or are to mimic) the relationship Christ has with the Father. Equal… but one must lead and one must submit. Gods perfect design. As an adult woman I would much rather submit to my husband than a boss…especially a female one. I thank God for hard working men that want to support a wife at home.
Why does it have to be either/or? How about both/and? I realize that probably most of the contributors and readers of this blog don’t agree with the idea of women working out of the home. However, there are many Christian women out there who do work outside of the home, part-time, full-time, seasonally … and they submit to their bosses and to their husbands. I will be among them after I finish school in about 15 months, and possibly before if I get a part-time job before then. And mu husband can’t wait for that day .
Have been praying for Wisdom in my feminine roles – thankful that God continually shows me how ignorant I am, and yet so hard to press in, while feeling ‘stupider’ by the day. Thanks for the encouragement on this journey –
http://freeagentmommy.typepad.com/blog/2010/10/wisdom-the-hard-way.html
I just want to say that I also have read for a while, but never commented. I want to tell you that God has used you mightily. I feel the presence and conviction of His precious Holy Spirit and my marriage has been the better for it. Thank God for your obedience.
SO glad you dropped in to comment! Thanks for the encouragement your comment was to ME!
I am a christian, a daughter and a wife. I lived under my father’s roof in another country and obeyed him. And my mother. There were times I was disobedient, disrespectful and was punished. But never was I taught not to be myself and ‘keep sweet’ because I was a girl. I was taught to respect everyone, male and female. My father and mother raised my brother and I the same. My dreams were given equal value. I was given a college education and when I got a chance to come to America for higher studies, my dad did not stop me. He in fact slept on the pavement so I could get a visa to America. He prayed with my mother each and every day for my future spouse from the time I was a baby. I have seen a father who did not hesitate to do ‘women’s work’ and so too my brother. My mother worked outside the home. We all pitched in as a family.
Some christians version of submission means I have to give up my dreams. Not have an education. Not travel outside the home because I am a girl etc. Or the flip side the feminist version is, since I left my native country and came to America for higher education, I must be out of my mind to have my parents choose my husband for me. Which is what an arranged marriage is. We never dated or lived together before marriage.
This is what my marriage is. My husband and I have different opinions. He listens to me and I do to him.He encourages me to go for my dreams and so do I. He has lost my temper with me and so have I. He encourages me to work outside the home, use my education. We discuss everything as a couple. He does not take unilateral decisions. At the end of the day, we both do what is needed to do for our family be it cook dinner, clean house, take out trash. I took time off work to raise our children. When they were/are sick, he is always up with me. I never asked him to, he just does it. I do not have to stroke his ego. He knows about my job and I know about his. In fact he helps me be better at my job by teaching me things. Every dream or opportunity we have, we discuss as a couple. I try to honor him and my parents in everything I do and say though I fail many times
I am my husband’s wife. The wife of a man who values me, cherishes me and loves me. I did take a vow at the altar before God to love him in sickness, health, good times and bad and obey him. So while I discuss everything with him, ultimately he is the authority in our house. If it comes between my opinion and his opinion, I will submit to my husband and obey him.
I do not feel like I have to give up thinking for myself like some people’s version of submission is and by obeying my husband become a brainless person like some other people think.
This quote put a smile on my face today…It gives me great joy to think of how God uses my femininity and submission to illustrate the gospel. Thank you for letting me be part of that Lord!
I was not being sarcastic. But see below. The Bible was NOT written in English:
However anyone chooses to understand what “submission” and “servant leadership” might mean, the most basic problem with interpretation of this verse concerns translation of the original Greek into English.
Every English translation I have ever seen translates Ephesians 5:22 as a complete sentence, with an imperative verb addressed to women. Here are a few samples:
* “Wives, submit yourself to your own husbands as unto the Lord” (King James Version.)
* “Wives be subject to your husbands as to the Lord” (Modern Language Version.)
* “You wives must submit to your husbands’ leadership in the same way you submit to the Lord” (Living Bible.)
* “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord” (Revised Standard Version.)
* “Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord” (New Revised Standard Version.)
* “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord”(New International Version.)
This is clear enough, isn’t it? Whether it is “submit” or “be subject,” in English translations, Ephesians 5:22 is a separate sentence with an imperative verb. Many English Bibles also treat Ephesians 5:22 as the start of a new paragraph.
And this is exactly the problem. Ephesians was not written in English. Ephesians was written in Greek, sometime in the first century. When you consult the Greek version of Ephesians, you will notice something remarkable. (If you wish to see the Greek version in an interlinear form with English translations, follow the link to Ephesians 5 below.)
Verse 5:22, in its entirety reads: “Wives to their own husbands as to the Lord.”
This isn’t even a complete sentence, because there is no verb. So, where does the idea of submission come from? It comes from the verb of the previous verse, Ephesians 5:21. In 5:21, the verb is not an imperative addressed only to wives. Instead, it is what Greek grammar calls a “reflexive” verb, in which submission is “to one another other.” Here are some translations of 5:21.
* “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (King James Version.)
* Be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ (Modern Language version.)
* Honor Christ by submitting to one another (Living Bible.)
* Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (Revised Standard Version.)
* Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ (New Revised Standard.)
* Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (New International Version.)
When it comes to Ephesians 5:21 and 5:22, we have two distinct translation decisions at work in most English Bibles:
The first is that English translations take the idea of submission from the verb in 5:21 and create an imperative form of the verb in 5:22, which has no verb.
The second is that English translations tend to treat 5:21 and 5:22 as separate units, with no real connection to each other.
The separation of 5:21 and 5:22 into separate units demonstrates the sometimes misleading consequences of dividing Biblical books into chapters and verses. In the earliest Greek manuscripts, there were no spaces between words and no punctuation at all. This means that there were no separate sentences and paragraphs.
All of the punctuation, and the division in sentences, verses, and chapters were added over time. Sometimes, the divisions into sentences, chapters, and verses make logical sense. Other times, these divisions separate what were clearly intended to be whole units.
The division of Ephesians 5:21 and 5:22 is one of the most dramatic examples of dividing what was clearly intended to be a whole thought. 5:22 is a phrase without a verb. The idea of submission comes from 5:21, in which submission is “to one another.”
It is simply irresponsible and misleading to take the idea of submission from 5:21, turn it into an imperative addressed only to women in 5:22, and then disconnect the idea from 5:21. Yet, this is exactly what many English translations do.
The King James Version of the Bible treated every verse as a new paragraph. Many of the newer translations separate chapters and verses into topical paragraphs. Some even add topic headings to the paragraphs.
If you investigate a series of English translations, you will find that some versions treat 5:21 as the closing sentence of a paragraph. Some treat is as a paragraph on its own. Some treat is as the opening sentence of a paragraph which includes 5:22.
The most misleading versions treat 5:22 as the first sentence of a new paragraph, under a heading. For example, The New International Version starts a new paragraph with 5:22, under the heading, “Wives and Husbands.”
What is the effect of these translation and publication decisions? In the time and place in which Ephesians was written, the idea of submission to one another in marriage was a radically new idea. In contrast, there was nothing new in the idea that wives were to submit to their husbands.
As with so many radical ideas coming out of the New Testament, the original idea was lost, and replaced by traditional ideas. The radical vision of mutual submission reverted into a traditional power structure within marriage.
The translators who really ought to know better reinforce the traditional ideas by adding a verb that is not there, and treating 5:22 as a new paragraph, completely separate from 5:21.
Miri,
First, it is plagiarism to quote someone else’s work without reference. I’m sure Dr. Kalinda Stevenson would appreciate due recognition for her explanation.
Secondly, I didn’t use Ephesians 5:21 as the catch-all verse for submission in marriage. The Bible is full of these references from Genesis to the NT. But I suppose if we performed the grammatical/translation gymnastics required to twist the interpretation into what we want it to be on those verses too, we’d all be safe. If it is necessary to take apart each verse as she has done with this one, in order to understand what the Bible really says, why do even bother to read our Bibles? If the Bible doesn’t basically say what it says, (because very few of us have the ability/tools to dissect Greek/English translations) then we have nothing to stand on regarding any part of our faith. The very gospel is likely to “not be what it really is” according to these kinds of wiggling around with translation.
Frankly, though I’m aware of occasional trouble with English/Greek translations, I don’t believe for a minute that all the brilliant scholars of that day and since have consistently misinterpreted not just that verse, but the dozens beside it that teach on marital roles.
Those are good explanations, Miri. This is a complementarian site, though, and I’m not even sure such info’s necessary on this post (I’m not even sure every fact you stated is necessary in the interpretation either, to be honest). The Bible doesn’t need to be dissected in every verse, but such research is quite necessary in vital places prone to misunderstanding or mistranslation, and actually less complicated that one might think. The difference a verb or punctuation mark can make is astounding; did you know the debate of whether Jesus ventured into hell (as part of our punishment) was fired because of where a comma was placed in the verse, “I tell you today you shall be with Me in heaven”? It still amazes me what background issues did for the true meaning of being compared to lukewarm water and the verse about “a camel through the eye of a needle”.
Miri,
You raise a good point about the Bible not being written in English. However, as one who can read Greek let me assure you that it is also just as dangerous to blindly swallow the arguments of others about a subject just because they have initials behind their name.
You and the dear Dr. are correct that Eph 5:22 is tied to Eph 5:21 from which the verb comes. However, this does not change the meaning of the verb (“to order yourself under” much like a military chain of command [Do you know many Generals “submitting” to Privates?]) nor does it negate the text where it clearly says that the submission of a wife is to be “like” that of the church to Christ who is the Lord of the church. Therefore, unless you wish to argue that the church is in some way positionally equal to the sovereign Lord who purchased it with His own blood, then you have a problem with claiming biblical support for your egalitarian views.
“Therefore, unless you wish to argue that the church is in some way positionally equal to the sovereign Lord who purchased it with His own blood, then you have a problem with claiming biblical support for your egalitarian views”
It’s the sacrifice of Christ that men are meant to emulate, not the authority. Otherwise, comparing men to Jesus would be rather blasphemous.
Jennifer,
While you raise a good point about men needing to emulate the sacrificial servant leadership of Christ toward their wives, you are missing both my point and the biblical context. The verse I am referencing (Eph 5:24) is in fact directing women on their proper response and action in relation to the divine order for the family Paul is establishing under the inspiration and direction of the Holy Spirit. This means that unless you can explain away the relationship between Christ and the Church (which interestingly is one of authority and submission respectively) then you cannot biblically support egalitarianism.
I would also challenge you further that comparing men to Jesus IS what we are supposed to do, he is the only true and right standard by which to measure them. It is rather when we place men on equal footing with the Almighty that we begin to blaspheme. Which brings me to my original point, if you wish to hold to an egalitarian position you ARE then placing men and God as equals since consistency within Eph 5 requires that if we are to say that men and women are to mutual submit to one another (in the manner suggested by rejecting a hierarchical structure of the family), then Christ is portrayed as submitting to the church. Paul clearly places the relationship of wives to their husbands in parallel with the relationship of the Church to Christ. This means that if you are going to have mutual submission on the one side of the parallel then you must have it on the other. Thus a consistent egalitarian reading of this text would require that our Lord Christ is in some way submissive to the sinful humans that make up the church. (Further, if He is submissive to anyone but His Father then according to Matt 4:8-10 it would appear that he would be committing idolatry thus sinning and ceasing to be God at which point our salvation and the very creation would cease to exist.) If you go down that road it would seem that at best you merely malign the gospel by painting a picture that is untrue (Eph 5:32) and at worst you could be flirting with blasphemy/idolatry.
All that to say, unless you are trying to make my point for me (from your other posts I would not be leaning that way) then I am not sure where the suggestion of blasphemy on my part comes from.
“This means that if you are going to have mutual submission on the one side of the parallel then you must have it on the other”
Not in the least. Christ died for the church, but did not submit in a way that suggested the church had hierarchy over HIM. This example is what what husbands should follow: sacrificing for their spouse in love, not obedience.
I’m a simple person but I don’t think pauper meant that Christ is in submission to the church. I don’t see how you got that from what he wrote. But that’s in essence what you are saying, Jennifer, when you claim husband and wife mutually submit to one another. In the parallel, if husband is equated with Christ, and wife is equated with the church, and Christ is in authority over the church, then husband is in authority over wife!
Christ died (as for the church = a husband sacrificing (as servant-leader) for his wife
Christ in authority over the church = man in authority over wife
are the two parallels he’s referring to. It is very clear when you read scripture. I know pauper needs no help from me, but maybe that’s what he’s saying?
OOPS! I meant:
Christ died for the church = husband sacrificing (as servant leader) for his wife
It’s also very clear that a husband has NO authority even remotely resembling Christ’s absolute rule over His wife.
Thanks for your explanation, Jane. Pauper’s way of thinking, though, I’m quite familiar with.
So you are saying that the husband has NO authority over his wife as Christ does over His church? And you are in disagreement with the parallel, as clearly stated in scripture?
No, I don’t believe the husband has authority. Even if I thought the wife was supposed to obey the husband, the obedience would be on her side; it would not mean her husband would actually order her around. Christ has authority over the church, absolutely, and purifies her as her Priest. Obviously this is different from the husband.
I have been studying the marriage Scriptures lately (you may wish to read my last several comments to Kelly and Antbed on the post about hierarchy and coal miners) so please do not try to engage me in any sort of debate/argument.
I wasn’t able to reply to you below, so I’ll put it here.
I have no intention of debating you, Jennifer. I don’t come here to debate anyone. You answered my questions, so I know where you stand.
I come here for encouragement and to learn from others about the truth of the Word of God. It’s too frustrating and pointless to debate someone whose views and beliefs deviate from truth of scripture on certain issues.
Well, my reply went where it was supposed to go. Weird.
“It’s too frustrating and pointless to debate someone whose views and beliefs deviate from truth of scripture on certain issues”
Indeed it is.
Jane,
Thank you. You did capture what I so clumsily tried to explain. Thank you for your clarity.
Pauper,
I wanted to thank you for your explanation. It was very clear to me, and put in a way I don’t think I’ve heard before. This is the first time anyone has ever thanked me for my feeble attempts at explaining biblical truths. LOL
Kelly,
Women who understand why we have roles in marriage see how beautiful it is. Thank you for your firm stance and unwavering commitment to uphold the truth of Scripture!
Thank you for this post and for your encouragement and willingness to stand for truth.
First, I never said this was my work 🙂 This is commonly cited, which I meant when I said “see below.” In fact, I pasted it in italics – sorry that didn’t show up!
But my point was this: The Bible is not written in ENGLISH, it is often translated and one can never say – “it’s perfectly clear!” It isn’t.
“It is often translated and one can never say – “it’s perfectly clear!” It isn’t”
Well, sometimes it is.
Oh, were you at the True Woman Conference? If so, I’m going to be disappointed I didn’t get to meet you.
Grace,
I went to the one in the Spring, not the most recent one–I got this quote from a blog 😉 Did you enjoy it?