A friend recently relayed to us his experience hiring for his company:
“I’m getting these young graduates…they have their degree–their credentials that say they’re qualified, but the interviews are unbelievable! They sit there like it doesn’t really matter to them whether they get hired. They show no ambition, no drive, and they actually have a hard time just conversing with me. I would much rather hire an ambitious, eager-to-learn employee that isn’t as qualified, as a supposedly qualified employee without any drive or eagerness.”
I’ve heard the same laments from my sister’s hiring processes and many others too. The dilemma is summed up in a word: CHARACTER.
The government school system boasts of its academic rigors (which are proving sorely inadequate, according to actual results), but they have failed miserably to turn out people of character–the stuff productive people are really made of.
The cause? Attempting to educate children apart from the laws of God. “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”. “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.'” A system has said “There is no God.”
That system then, is foolish and can only produce fools, as the Bible speaks of them.
The poor attempts at “character training” that are made by the government are in vain because the bedrock is wrong. “The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God.”
And what of academics? All things spring from wisdom and the knowledge of God, including the character that propels a diligent student.
Educating children with the fear of God’s law as the fountain head educates a whole person both academically and in his character. What our country is suffering from, on many levels, is a generation who has failed to be instructed in wisdom, the beginning of true knowledge.
God is not mocked. We reap what we sow.
So I urge you, hide the Word of God in your children’s heart, day by day, moment by moment. There are reasons, from Scripture, that guide all that we do in life. Remind them frequently of their purpose in life: to glorify God and enjoy Him (there’s a deep theological implication there. I recommend John Piper’s, Desiring God.)
Are we modeling wisdom? Are our children “catching” honesty, diligence, self-control, kindness, eagerness….etc.? Remind them, in the hundreds of opportunities each day, what Scripture says about handling circumstances, responding and reacting to life around them.
Work on their communication skills and their ability to articulate their beliefs and opinions. Encourage them to face challenges eagerly, and ingrain in them that they have been fearfully and wonderfully made and endowed with gifts by their Creator.
This is the job of shepherding the hearts of our children and “making the world a better place”.
EXCELLENT article from Forbes (hat tip to Carolina): Want to Tell the State to Stick It? Homeschool Your Kids
49 comments
My 15 year old homeschooled son gets loads of well paid word right
here in our small subdivision. The reason? It’s all physical work
and other young fellows won’t touch it… and some mothers believe
their boys are above such work. He cuts and piles firewood,shovels
snow from the fire hydrants and mows grass in summer. He’s always
eager to search out opportunities.I’m so glad I don’t have to drive
him to town, (30 min. away) for some part- time burger flippin job.
It wouldn’t pay with the price of gas these days! Love your blog.
My 23 yr.old son just went for an interview with a big pool company here in town. We live in Florida..lol. The owner told my son that he generally does not hire young men his age because of their lifestyle and lack of maturity etc. He told my son that he hires older more mature people to help him run his company. He proceeded to interview him for an hour. My son just found out that they will be calling him back in for possible imployment. Character..Christian Character Does Matter!! If he gets the job..He will be the youngest employee. We are not sure yet so I don’t want to jump ahead but the fact that they are even considering him amazes me. If he gets it..great..If he doesn’t that’s okay also. He is a really hard working young man and he is completely honest in his responses. One interesting thing to note..My son told me after the interview that this was the first person who did not curse or use dirty jokes during the interview. My son really appreciated that. Isn’t that so sad..
The fruit of the harvest is sweet….
My husband works for the largest telecommunication company in the world. He began as a technician and after a year was recommended for a management position. He was hired and we were moved across the state. He is the youngest man in this position by far (he has yet to meet another that isn’t double his age) and he is the only one that he knows of that doesn’t have a college education. He was recommended and hired for this position because his hardworking (he worked overtime with a smile), diligence, honesty, and leadership skills were so admired and unheard of. He is often told in shock, from leaders high up in the company that they can’t believe he is as young as he is because all young guys just want to party, drink, hangout, never come in on time, do lousy work, ect. It’s so sad that the 20somethings have this reputation. My husband wasn’t raised and taught Godly character by any means, but despite that, and by God’s grace, he has the desire to live for the Lord and is a man of character.
I grew up in a Christian home and attended public school, I work incredible hard at my job, and I have a strong moral character. I work full-time as a victim’s advocate and counselor for victims of domestic violence, child abuse, and sexual assault. I’m not sure where along the way my public education or my home environment failed me…
I, too, am a public school graduate. The fact that there are lots of productive people with good character despite the godless education they received, isn’t proof that it is the correct route. The majority of the population does have serious character issues and do suffer from a lack of wisdom and character training. God’s Word still remains true: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” and “the fool says there is no God”.
They show no ambition, no drive, and they actually have a hard time just conversing with me.
This is rampant today. My husband was over at our neighbor’s recently, cutting, splitting and stacking wood (needed to heat their house) by our neighbor’s request (he travels frequently for his job and is often gone for weeks at a time, so he asks for my husband’s assistance during the cold weather months so his wife doesn’t have to worry about taking care of that while he’s gone).
Thing is, the man has an able-bodied 18- or 19-year-old stepson who could be taking care of all of this, but doesn’t and won’t (and his dad knows it; that’s why he asks my husband to do it, because he knows it won’t get done if he leaves it up to his son). When my husband was over there, the kid (he hasn’t earned the privilege of being called a man) and several of his friends were just standing outside, hanging out, watching my 50-something-year-old husband do all the work. The kid and his friends never offered to lift a finger to help, never spoke a word to my husband, never even looked the slightest bit ashamed that they had no inclination to work.
His parents lamented several times during his high school years how, despite “how smart he is”, he was always failing at school — an underachiever. Now he’s out of school (I don’t know whether he graduated or dropped out), and he’s still doing nothing.
Smarts get you nowhere in life without character.
When I was a public school teacher twenty-some years ago, the big word then seemed to be “choice”. Character was not mentioned, choice was: “You have a choice; you can either ____, or else ____. You pick: A or B.” Nothing was “right” or “wrong”; it was simply a choice between this or that. You might experience consequences for choosing the lesser-socially-acceptable choice, but really, for many kids, the consequences weren’t unpleasant enough to deter them from indulging their penchant for laziness or other poor character traits, and the benefits of working diligently over the long term because it’s the morally right thing to do were never realized by far too many children.
This is what happens when we remove God and His will for us as expressed in His Word from our children’s education. There is no concept of doing all to the glory of God.
It is not surprising to me the caliber of adult we typically see today being turned out of a system that rejects God. The government schools continue to pass along children from grade to grade who are under-performing due to their weak character. They get a free ride through the system, with few truly unpleasant consequences (apparent to the student) along the way, for hardly exerting themselves beyond whatever level they’re naturally inclined to. And when they get to be adults (chronologically, not functionally), they still don’t have to apply themselves because, again, they’ve got the government to fall back on. Who needs God when you’ve got government schools and government programs who will give you an easy ride for little effort?
My two cents. (Ducking the virtual tomatoes.) 🙂
Unbelievable what you are telling, but of course, I believe you.
I have also seen a lack of matirity in high school graduates who do not know what they want to do with their lives. Or even in 30’s somethning who do not even know if they want to get married and have children. Nowadays you enter pubierty earlier and earlier and leave it later and later.
This is so, so, sad. Unfortunately, it is true way too often. However, I don’t see how the lack of character can be completely attributed to public schools. I myself am home schooled, but all my friends go to the local high school. Out local high school is second worst in the state as far as teen pregnancy, drug use, etc. However, all of my friends totally resist these influences. Many of them are very smart. One of my friends is planning on going to MIT when he graduates, a very prestigious, high ranked university. And yet his character is so strong that before college, he is going on a 2 year mission for our church. So are all my male friends. All of my friends love serving others, work hard, and most importantly, love and serve God. The reason they have such strong characters is that their parents taught them from when they were babies, just as my parents have taught me. It is the parent’s responsibility to instill character, not the school’s. Can anyone please explain to me why you think public schools are the problem? I would sincerely like to know your thoughts.
Eva,
You can find the answers to your question on many different posts here, if you’ll search through the categories of schooling. The nutshell is partially answered in your own comment:
“It is the parent’s responsibility to instill character, not the school’s. Can anyone please explain to me why you think public schools are the problem?”
The school monopolizes most of a child’s time; even after school through homework and such. Children usually (of course not always) adopt the character/habits of the people with whom they spend the most time and form the strongest attachments. Usually this is peers.
The other “problem”, maybe more indirectly related to your question is that the Bible teaches STRONGLY against counsel, teaching or ideas that oppose truth and oppose God as authority over that truth. So the idea of giving our children over to the counsel of an institution that is staunchly opposed to even acknowledging God, much less His authority over all of life, is, in my opinion, a direct contradiction of what we have been instructed through His Word.
Hi Eva,
Thanks for your comment and your sincere question.
I didn’t mean to imply that lack of character can be completely attributed to public schools, and I don’t think anyone else here is saying that either. You are correct that parents have a responsibility to instill good character in their children. That is true no matter where their children are educated. Yet for those parents who try to develop their children’s character, public schools, by the very nature of the system (humanistic, rather than God-centered), often undermine the values that parents are trying to teach in their limited hours they have with their children at home.
I think you would find it beneficial to read more about the philosophy behind government schooling, both in its founding and its present-day functioning. Kelly has a lot here on her site about that (click on “categories” in the sidebar, then “public school”, or “humanism”, or whatever else you find relevant to this discussion). I would recommend especially reading John Taylor Gatto’s works, a former public school teacher of the year, who has seen the problems firsthand with the public school system, having taught in it for many years.
Here are a few key points he brings up [bold print, emphasis mine]:
“We need to rethink the fundamental premises of schooling and decide what it is we want all children to learn and why. For 140 years this nation has tried to impose objectives downward from the lofty command centre made up of “experts”, a central elite of social engineers. It hasn’t worked. It won’t work… It doesn’t work because it’s fundamental premises are mechanical, anti-human, and hostile to family life.”
More: “What else does a restructured school system need? It needs to stop being a parasite on the working community. Of all the pages in the human ledger, only our tortured entry has warehoused children and asked nothing of them in service to the general good. For a while I think we need to make community service a required part of schooling. Besides the experience in acting unselfishly that will teach, it is the quickest way to give young children real responsibility in the mainstream of life.”
And one more: “FAMILY is the main engine of education. If we use schooling to break children away from parents — and make no mistake, that has been the central function of schools since John Cotton announced it as the purpose of the Bay Colony schools in 1650 and Horace Mann announced it as the purpose of Massachusetts schools in 1850 — we’re going to continue to have the horror show we have right now. THE CURRICULUM OF FAMILY is at the heart of any good life…”
Excerpted from here: http://www.home-ed.vic.edu.au/2002/02/26/john-gatto-teacher-of-the-year-acceptance-speech/
Your public school friends are blessed to have parents who desire to instill good character in their children, but every day your friends are sitting in an environment that promotes humanism (“You are your own person; you can be what you want to be”, etc. rather than receiving the Biblical message that we are not our own, that we are to glorify God in all that we do, and so on). Biblical tenets are absent from the teaching in government schools. The foundation of the system is not built upon “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge”.
Eva, when you’re young, it can be hard to see beyond the high school years and envision the difficulties that can come after receiving a steady dose of contradictory values from what one has been taught by Christian parents. I attended public schools for about half of my school years before college (grades K-3 and 10-12), and really thought I was doing pretty well in high school retaining the values my Christian parents had tried to instill in me. I didn’t smoke, drink, do drugs, have sex, etc.
Then came college, and the whole ball game changed. All those years of being told in school to express myself, be my own person, etc. held heavy sway over me once I became an adult. I won’t provide examples of how I changed in college, but I will tell you that one time while I was in college, there was something I considered doing, and I wanted to ask my parents for advice and permission to do it.
Long story short, my parents were horrified by what I was considering. I think it was then that they saw how askew my thinking had become. I truly did not think what I was considering was bad, and I wanted to ask our pastor what he thought of it, and my dad just about fell over and told me not to say anything to the pastor. I’m sure he was afraid of what the pastor would think of him and my mom, that they raised a daughter who would even consider such a thing. My mom was so shocked, she couldn’t function for weeks. (All my siblings were teens by that time and could fend for themselves in my mom’s absence.)
Suffice it to say, the influences of my public school years overrode the teaching my parents had tried to instill, and my judgment was seriously clouded on a number of matters for several years in my early adulthood, which carried implications not only for my life, but others’, too.
I’m not trying to scare you, Eva, just being realistic about the damage that can be done from humanistic thinking that is subtly introduced and reinforced over many years of spending significant time in a secular environment, even when there is some home teaching of Biblical truths. Sometimes the destructive effects of subtle teachings contrary to biblical precepts do not show up until many years after it looks like the person has already appeared to “turn out fine”.
By all means, pray for your friends. They are swimming against the tide in an environment (public school) that takes the focus off of the One True God, and puts it elsewhere.
Sorry this got so long, and I know I deviated somewhat from the character question, expounding on some of the dangers from being saturated in the public school environment. Yet, poor character (focusing on self rather than God and blessing others) was at the heart of the problems I had in my early adult years, and I do see that the humanist thinking I’d been exposed to in my schooling played a huge part in those problems. And I am not the only one.
Bottom line, whatever anyone’s experience has been, the Bible is to be our guide for all of life. When the wisdom of God is ignored, mocked, not nurtured, undermined, what have you in any environment, public school or wherever, some sadly destructive influences can tear down the foundations of good Christian character. I pray that will not happen to your friends.
Blessings to you, Eva.
Thank you for replying! Your post was not overly long, and was very interesting and enlightening. It reminded me of this scripture. It is from the Book of Mormon, so you probably haven’t seen it before, but I know there are similar scriptures in the bible. This one just puts the truth so eloquently. Heleman 5:12. “And now my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.”
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and thinking about how important it is to build ourselves upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. I have also been thinking about how I am going to make sure that my children, when I have them, build their foundations upon God. I am planning on home schooling my kids, at least until high school, so that they can have that sure foundation. But I think that if they want, I will let them go to public school if I deem them mature and strong enough for it. I would rather they prove how strong they are to me before I shove them out into the world without any experience. But that is probably 20 years into the future so I have a long time to think about it!
You’re right, Eva, in that I have not seen the verse you quoted. I’ve heard of the Book of Mormon, but haven’t personally examined it yet, to see the context of this verse. I would actually like to read the whole book sometime, as I’ve studied the Holy Bible for maybe about 25 years now, and have become interested recently in seeing how closely various writings, like the Book of Mormon, for example, align with the Holy Bible. Thanks for sharing that verse and your thoughts!
Reading your comment reminded me of a bible passage and a hymn. The passage is this: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. Matthew 7:24-25.
And the hymn is this one: Built on the Rock. Have you heard it? Here are the words to the first verse.
Built on the Rock the church doth stand,
Even when steeples are falling;
Crumbled have spires in every land,
Bells still are chiming and calling;
Calling the young and old to rest,
But above all the soul distressed,
Longing for rest everlasting.
The lyrics (all 7 verses!) and music can be found here: http://cyberhymnal.org/htm/b/u/builton.htm
The hymn is so comforting (I recommend reading it in its entirety), full of truth and the precious reminder of the peace we have in knowing that we can rest completely in Jesus through His substitutionary death for us on the cross, Who entirely bore our guilt and shame in His body, that we through faith may have eternal salvation.
I loved reading your comment, Eva. You sound like you have such a heart for children! Children are such a blessing, and it was a great privilege for me to homeschool my two adult children all the way through high school. I hope to be blessed with that same opportunity with my other four children. I pray that you will also be blessed with children someday, that you may experience the distinct pleasure of having children at your side. 🙂
6 Arrows
Thank you! That hymn is beautiful. Although I haven’t heard it before, in my church the little children sing a song based on that scripture. Thanks for your kind words! My biggest dream is to raise a good, big family for God! I would highly recommend that you read the Book of Mormon, even if you don’t necessarily want to investigate the LDS church. Of course, to us LDS members, it holds equal status with the Bible, as we consider both to be God’s word. But even if you don’t believe that, it is still an amazing book full of good, encouraging verses like the one I wrote above!
Eva,
I think I know the song to which you refer 🙂 (About the wise man building his house upon the rock, and the foolish man building on the sand?) That last part is based on the next two verses after those I quoted above from Matthew 7.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
As I said in my previous post, I’ve been interested in looking at The Book of Mormon, so I searched online yesterday for it, and read part of an excerpt at Amazon. I’d like to read more, as time permits.
One thing I learned as I sought more information on the Book of Mormon was that the original 1822 version contained many phrases and verses that are no longer in the present-day text, or are changed, perhaps substantially so. I understand, Eva, that as an LDS member, you see both The Holy Bible and The Book of Mormon as God’s word. One reason I personally don’t believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God is because of this scripture from the Holy Bible, which brings me great comfort: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8
Many words of the Book of Mormon have not stood.
Another reason I don’t believe the Book of Mormon (or any other book besides The Holy Bible) is the word of God is because of scriptures in the Holy Bible that warn about adding to God’s word:
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
The sure hope I have received for the final truth and authority and sufficiency of Holy Scripture alone as the true Word of God can be found in scriptures such as these:
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalm 119:160
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
The Word of God gives me such hope and peace. When I meditate on it, I always feel so much better! I am thankful that God preserves his words for us, and that our Savior Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8) Having a personal relationship with Jesus is a rich and indescribable treasure!
I enjoy conversing with you, Eva. You are a sweet young lady. 🙂 May you enjoy God’s blessings and deep peace to you through relationship with Jesus.
6 Arrows
I can totally understand your position, and how you are convinced that the Book of Mormon is not God’s word. I am not trying to convince you that it is, but I would like to address some of the things you said which I know aren’t true. I don’t know where you got the information about the original Book of Mormon, but in fact the first printing of the Book of Mormon was in 1830, not 1822. The Book of Mormon remains almost completely unchanged to this day, with only a few minor errors such as spelling and punctuation, as well as the dividing up of chapters and verses. In fact, the Bible is much, much more changed from its original, unaltered state than the Book of Mormon because of the many translations it has gone through, etc. I too love that verse from Isaiah 40:8, but because the words of the Book of Mormon have stood, I don’t think it can be applied in that way. As for Proverbs 30: 5-6, of course we LDS believe that the Book of Mormon is God’s word, brought to us from God, so we don’t see it as “adding unto his word.” However, I can totally see how others not of our faith would see it that way! I probably would as well if I didn’t have a testimony that it is true. I also love 2 Timothy 3:16-17! In my church, all the high school kids go to a class called seminary, usually early in the morning before school. Each year, we study the scriptures and memorize 25 of them. This year, that is one of those scriptures! Please don’t think I am trying to be argumentative or pushy, I simply can’t help telling people about the joy that comes to me from the Bible and the Book of Mormon together! The full title of the Book of Mormon is “The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” And I know that is true! It is a testament of Christ’s divinity and His life, just as is the Old Testament and the New Testament. I thank God every day for all the scriptures, and the biggest way I try to show my gratitude is by following the commandments in them! P.S. Did you know you can get the Book of Mormon for free? And if you don’t want a hard copy, you can also read it online, or download it for free. Here is the link to get a free hard copy http://mormon.org/free-book-of-mormon . Here is the link to read it online http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng . This way you won’t just have to read excerpts on Amizon 🙂 Thanks!
Thanks for the links, Eva. I’ll read it online and get back to you — I’ll probably put my comment down at the bottom of this page, though, since we’re just about out of space along the right-hand edge here 😉
Oh, and by the way, Eva, I don’t think you’re argumentative or pushy at all!
I have one quick question for you. What do you mean by this statement?: “I probably would [see the Book of Mormon as adding unto God’s word] as well if I didn’t have a testimony that it is true.” What testimony are you speaking of? Thanks.
When I say I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, I mean that I know it is true in the same way I know the Bible is true. I have felt the Holy Ghost tell me it is true in my feelings and my thoughts. When I read the Book of Mormon, I get the same feeling as I read the Bible. I know it is the word of God. When I said that I probably would [see the Book of Mormon as adding unto God’s word] if I wasn’t LDS, I meant that I can totally see how people think that, or even see it as the devil’s book. Most people think that all we need to know from God is in the Bible. But the Book of Mormon adds so much! It is truly the word of God just as much as the Bible is, and is just as important. That is what I mean when I say I have a testimony of it. I just know that it is true.
Eva, thank you for answering my question. I will be pondering it and would like to continue our conversation at a later date. I am going on what I call my “February Fast”, starting Friday the First — kind of has a ring to it doesn’t it? 😉 I’ll be back to commenting in March, Lord willing.
Love and blessings to you, Eva.
Eva,
I decided to not wait until March to reply to you. My comment is down at the bottom of this page.
Check this, Kelly:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2013/01/22/want-to-tell-the-state-to-stick-it-homeschool-your-kids/
Carolina,
That was GREAT. I added it to the post.
Loved this! Sharing… 🙂
AMEN!
Our son (who was educated here at home all the way through to high school graduation) is an engineering student at a nearby college. He sees this on campus, in his classes. He’s amazed, and saddened. It is, however, an opportunity for a young person to shine in a dark world!
I live in NY State. Today I learned about another “gem” in the public school system: the existence of gay/lesbian clubs, something I was not aware of. Unbelievable. But the Cross is not allowed.
Not surprised. There are preschools, I said “preschools” in Sweden that are “gender free”. No one is allowed to say, “boy or girl, male or female. No gender distinctions allowed.
It really is amazing how character, confidence and helping others is rare. I get compliments all the time from strangers about my 12 yr old daughter over things that should be so standard they would go unnoticed 50 years ago. I am proud of her, of course, but sad that helping someone or addressing adults with grace is noteworthy.
Okay, question. How does everyone feel about colleges and universities? Why only homeschool through high school? I guess I’m wondering how these same ideas apply once a child is 18 and needs a higher degree for gainful employment.
I’m not 100% opposed to college. I personally hope/pray my children will not have to endure the overpriced/overrated racket that college has become. Knowledge, in our day, is readily available FREE. Thankfully, many corporations and business are catching on to the reality that a degree isn’t what makes a good employee, necessarily. Here’s is a link with recent discussion of the subject: Rethinking Education: The Overrated College Degree Drives the System…& Apprenticeship
There are dozens of other articles on this site you may be interested in reading related to the topic–just search or select a category.
My oldest daughter is taking courses she is interested in on-line; she will receive a certificate, but isn’t interested in a degree. We are HUGE fans of entrepreneurship, the grease that oils this country’s economy. Naturally, there are still occupations that will require a standard college degree, but thankfully, the options are MUCH wider now and there are so many avenues to take.
What on earth?? Have you ever gottenthis many rotten comments on posts? Was this “Attack Kelly Week” or something? Absolutely ridiculous!
I’m afraid it’s been like that for a long time. 🙁
LOL! Charity, every once in a while a particular post will get them to crawl out of their dens in unusual droves. Mostly they just stay hidden out, behind fake names and emails, and drone on with each other about everything they hate about me–which is everything 😉 They are mentally disturbed, full of hate and bitterness, with WAY too much time. It’s GREAT for my ranking as annoying as they can be. Comes with the territory.
I suppose you’re right, Kelly. Perhaps I’ve just seen more of the deleted comments lately. I showed my husband one on the post you had to close comments on and he just couldn’t get over that type of comment especially considering the subject of the post. He said “good grief, who rolled over the rocks?” I guess I just will never understand why these type commenters continue to read here. Anyway…I’m sure you’ve grown some thick (or thicker) skin since the birth of this blog, eh? Thank you for all you do here. I just love you! 🙂
Charity,
Do you mind sending me your email through my contact form? The one I have for you isn’t working and I have an email for you 😉
Done 🙂
We can take away public schools, but adults still need to grow up and stop getting divorced. Kids will never respect their parents when their parents how they can’t even provide for their basic needs like a stable family. It drives me nuts when people complain about step kids, and I’m thinking well duh, that’s what happens when adults act like children.
“What else does a restructured school system need? It needs to stop being a parasite on the working community. Of all the pages in the human ledger, only our tortured entry has warehoused children and asked nothing of them in service to the general good. For a while I think we need to make community service a required part of schooling. Besides the experience in acting unselfishly that will teach, it is the quickest way to give young children real responsibility in the mainstream of life.”
That is the best idea ever!!!
Excellent point…stability of the family is no doubt, likely THE most harmful element in society. And there are SO many factors that play a part in that.
Eva,
You said on January 31 at 1:18 am, When I say I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true, I mean that I know it is true in the same way I know the Bible is true. I have felt the Holy Ghost tell me it is true in my feelings and my thoughts. When I read the Book of Mormon, I get the same feeling as I read the Bible.
You’ve used a form of the word “feel” a number of times here: felt, feeling(s). Our feelings cannot be relied upon as an accurate indicator of truth. God has something to say about what we feel in our hearts: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9. We must look to the Holy Bible as our standard for determining truth, not our thoughts and feelings.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
How do we prove that the Book of Mormon is the word of God? What objective standard do we have at our disposal to make that determination, since we see from Scripture that our feelings are not a gauge of truth? And how do we know whether or not Joseph Smith is a false prophet?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 outlines the test for determining who is a true prophet of the living God: 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
I don’t know if you’re aware of it, Eva, but there are prophecies that Joseph Smith made that have been proven false. Information here and at multiple other sources: http://carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith
A prophet is defined as a spokesman for God, speaking in God’s name and by His authority; hence, what the prophet says is not of man but of God.
When Joseph Smith prophesied that Jesus would return in 56 years, he was wrong (the world would have ended in 1891 if he had been right). Therefore, Joseph Smith is a false prophet. What he prophesied did not come true. That prophecy did not come from God, because God doesn’t make mistakes; He doesn’t lie, in fact it’s impossible (Hebrews 6:18); and Jesus Himself said in Matthew 24:35-36 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. No one can predict when the world will end, not Joseph Smith, not anyone else.
Eva, Joseph Smith is not a prophet of God, therefore the Book of Mormon is not the Word of God. How do I know that? Not because I feel it in my heart and thoughts. I know it because the Bible proves it to be true.
First I would ask you this. How do you know that the Bible is the word of God? How do you know that it isn’t just written by crazy people and is completely false? Sure, you can choose to believe it, but surely you have some “feelings” from the Holy Ghost confirming this to you. I say feelings because there are no other words to describe how the Holy Ghost communicates with us. It is a unique sensation. Because there is no other “feeling” like it, it is impossible to accurately describe. But the Bible clearly tells us that the Holy Ghost can communicate to us in “feelings.” John 14: 16-17 is talking about when Jesus was telling His disciples that when He left them, he would not leave them comfortless. But he would “Pray to the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him.” As for the “false prophecies of Joseph Smith,” I can’t investigate the first one, that the world would end in 56 years, right now because my dad only has the first volume of ‘History of the Church’ and that reference was in the second volume. I think my grandpa has it however, so next time I go to his house I will read it and respond. As for the “prophecy” that there would be a temple dedicated by Joseph Smith in “the western borders of Missouri,” there were actually two temples that were started. One was in Independence, and the other in Far West. However, the Saints were driven out before anything but the cornerstones and part of the foundation could be laid. The cornerstones were dedicated by Joseph Smith. The dedication on the Far West temple site, and the fulfilling of that prophecy, is actually a very miraculous story. The next example, about the civil war, is actually a very good example of a prophecy made by Joseph Smith, through inspiration from God, that was fulfilled. That prophecy , given in 1832, says “This saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls. And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place.” This prophecy was fulfilled less than 30 years later, when South Carolina seceded from the Union and the first shots were fired at Fort Sumpter. The argument that CARM is trying to use here is that since there wasn’t a world war, the prophecy was false. However, the scripture doesn’t say that it will be the civil war in which all nations will be a part. It just says “And the time will come.” The time did come. Twice. WWI and WWII. And maybe there will yet be world wars. In fact, it is probable. So this prophecy actually was fulfilled. The next claim is the prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in “not many days.” Who are we to decide how many days is “not many days?” The Lord’s idea of days is probably much different from ours. For example, Christ created the earth in 7 days right? Well what if 1 day to Him is 1,000 years to us? Or 1 million? The next example is the prophecy from Isaiah that the Lion shall lie down with the lamb, etc. Joesph Smith said that this was not far distant. Isaiah made that prophecy thousands of years before Joseph Smith was born, and 200 years compares to several thousand is a short time. There are many, many prophecies including those from Isaiah that have not yet been fulfilled. Does that mean that Isaiah was a false prophet? of course not. We know that isn;t true. We know that his prophecies will come to pass, it is only a matter of time. I would also like to add that if you google “false prophecies of Joseph Smith,” you are sure to find false information. Why not go to http://mormon.org/ and see the other side of the story before making your decision? Again I would ask. How do you know the Bible is the true word of God? It is not by looking for everything that could possibly false and wrong about it and disproving every one of them. It is by praying for God to give you the truth. It is by listening to the Holy Ghost as God answers your prayer. It is by reading the book of Mormon and sincerely praying to know that it is true. You can google all you want, but that is really the only way. Please read the Book of Mormon, pray about it wit ha sincere heart and listen to what the Holy Ghost tells you. Be prepared to listen to whatever the answer is. Please don’t have your prejudices and opinions gained by google in mind as you read. I would love to continue this discussion, I have enjoyed the test of my knowledge on the gospel and I see how really inadequate I am at it 🙂
Hi Eva 🙂
Sorry I’ve been so slow to respond. I did see your most recent comment, but didn’t have time to reply. I hope you see this, so long after the fact…
I only have time to address a couple of your questions and a group of statements you made on feelings. First, your questions:
How do you know that the Bible is the word of God?
I know by faith that the Holy Bible is the Word of God: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17.
How do you know that it isn’t just written by crazy people and is completely false?
The Bible says who wrote the Scriptures and how (2 Peter 1:20-21):
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
A related scripture, which I mentioned in an earlier post, would be the first part of 2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God… So we see that the Holy Bible is God’s inspired Word, written by holy men who were moved by the Holy Ghost.
How do we know that the Word is true? Refer to Romans 10:17 again. Also 1 Corinthians 2:14: They [the things that are freely given to us of God, verse 12]…are spiritually discerned. Here are some other helpful scriptures, as well.
Let’s go back to 2 Peter chapter 1 and look at the verses leading up to verses 20 and 21, which I just quoted:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Note especially in verse 16: We…were eyewitnesses… Also, in verse 18: And this voice [God the Father] which came from heaven we heard… They have seen and they have heard. John 21:24, also: This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
For more context regarding the John passage, read the first 14 verses of the first chapter, especially verse 14, to see what (Whom) this book is about: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John was sent to bear witness of the true Light, Jesus (verses 8 and 9). Again, it is through faith that we believe the truth of Scripture and Who Jesus is.
I want to now address these statements you made: Sure, you can choose to believe it, but surely you have some “feelings” from the Holy Ghost confirming this to you. I say feelings because there are no other words to describe how the Holy Ghost communicates with us. It is a unique sensation. Because there is no other “feeling” like it, it is impossible to accurately describe. But the Bible clearly tells us that the Holy Ghost can communicate to us in “feelings.” John 14: 16-17 is talking about when Jesus was telling His disciples that when He left them, he would not leave them comfortless. But he would “Pray to the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him.”
That is a lovely section of scripture you quoted, Eva, from one of my favorite chapters of the Bible. However, nowhere in this passage, nor anywhere else in the Bible, are we told that the Holy Ghost communicates to us in “feelings”. The Holy Ghost affirms the truth of the written word as outlined in the Holy Bible, working faith in our hearts. He gives us faith, not feelings. The two terms are not synonymous.
A “feeling” I have that something is true doesn’t necessarily make it so, even if it’s about a spiritual matter on which I think the Holy Ghost has spoken to me. As a personal example, in my first reply to you, Eva, way back on January 25, I mentioned that I had asked my parents for advice on a matter that I was considering. I had really “felt” that what I was considering was biblically justified.
Well, I know now, not through experience or feelings, but through the Holy Ghost’s illuminating the Scriptures to me, that what I thought was biblically justified was in fact NOT. And it would be very easy for me now to point out scripture that clearly explains why not.
The culture, rather than scripture, was informing my worldview at that time, even though I thought I knew enough about the Scriptures, and that the Holy Ghost was “telling” me what I was thinking was fine.
It’s important to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-11:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Clearly, our thoughts and ways are not God’s thoughts and ways. It is His holy word that goes forth from His mouth, and we have that Word so that we don’t have to rely on our feelings.
We’ve already looked at 2 Peter 1:20. The Holy Ghost doesn’t give me any special revelation or private “feeling”, and the same is true of all the rest of us. I need look no further than the Holy Bible, knowing that the Holy Spirit will speak truth to me through the printed Holy Word of God.
[…] Education- Why Character Matters Most from Generation Cedar. This post will make you glad you don’t just “teach to the test.” It reminds me of Charlotte Mason’s quote (paraphrasing here) that if we learn to know the material, we will know but nothing more. We need understanding. We need real thinking. And above all, we need character. […]
6 Arrows
Thanks for replying! I think faith comes to different people in different ways. I do have faith in the Bible, and in the Book of Mormon. I do gain faith through the Holy Ghost. But the biggest way that happens for me is in feelings. When the Holy Ghost manifests the truth of something to me, such as the truthfulness of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, he does this by giving me great joy. I’m sure you feel joy when you read the scriptures, or listen to a sermon, etc. These feelings are from God and are meant to increase out faith, which they do.
You said “The Bible says who wrote the Scriptures and how (2 Peter 1:20-21):
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
This is also true of the Book of Mormon. Ancient American prophets, called by God, wrote and were given prophecies “as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
You also said “Note especially in verse 16: We…were eyewitnesses… Also, in verse 18: And this voice [God the Father] which came from heaven we heard… They have seen and they have heard. John 21:24, also: This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.”
This is true of the Book of Mormon as well. There are witnesses of Christ in the Book of Mormon, just as there are in the Bible. After Christ was resurrected, He visited the Americas. The people there were partly what Christ was talking about in John 10:16. “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also must I bring.” These people believed in Christ and had been waiting for hundreds of years, just as the Jews were. The whole point of the Book of Mormon is to back up the Bible. It is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” The book of Mormon is in more of its original form than the Bible, since it has been translated only once, rather than multiple times like the Bible has. i believe, I know, that both are the word of God. They are both essential in my life and should be in all lives. I am filled with everlasting gratitude to God when I think of how blessed I am to have both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to guide me. So many people in the world don’t have either one.
6 Arrows, please read the Book of Mormon. I know you don’t see it as scripture, but even without that, it is still a very good, enlightening, faith promoting book. As you read it, please just keep my testimony and faith in it in your mind. At the very end of the Book of Mormon, the prophet Moroni, the last prophet to write in it, said this. “And when ye shall recieve these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true. And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”
You can email me if you want. My email address is wadswortheve@gmail.com. P.S. My real name is Eve, Eva is just my nickname 🙂
Eva (or Eve) 🙂
Thank you! I sent you an email with my screen name in the subject line. Let me know if for some reason you don’t receive it.
Kelly,
Thank you for permitting us to carry on our conversation here for as long as we already have. We’ll continue our conversation privately now, but I appreciate that you let Eva and me get a good beginning to our discussion here. 🙂
You’re most welcome 😉
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