Shocking title, I know. And so was his statement:
“The polygamist lifestyle begins with polygamist thinking.”
Our friend leading Bible study said.
Sometimes the truth IS shocking and we just don’t realize it.
Think this through with me….
“Polygamy…a form of marriage where a person has more than one spouse at the same time.”
Now this is hard for us to swallow, but since God institutes marriages and not the state, He gets to make the rules. And here are his rules:
“But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.”
Obviously this could spawn deep theological discussion on marriage and divorce, but since there is an epidemic of “no-fault divorce” and I’m no theologian, I’ll keep it simple and just refer to that for discussion’s sake. (We’re not discussing abuse in marriage–different topic.)
In God’s eyes, a couple can’t really get an unbiblical divorce. They can get the state to give them a piece of paper that says they’re divorced, but He says they’re still married and if they remarry it is….yep, polygamy. Did you think about that before?
I’ve talked about how the dating system primes us for “disposable” thinking which increases likelihood of divorce. In essence then, doesn’t the dating system promote a thought-life akin to polygamy?
In the modern dating system, we are entitled to be romantically involved with as many people as we want and that is socially acceptable. We can indulge in a physical and emotional experience meant to be reserved for marriage and then drop it on a dime and move on to the next person. We can shop, use and borrow with reckless abandon.
BUT…when we get married, that track of thinking ingrained by our previous habits is expected to be instantly destroyed and returned to a monogamous state.
Well, at least that’s what used to be expected of marriage before we began accepting polygamy as a way of life.
251 comments
I’ve always told my children that dating is nothing more than acceptable divorce practice…promotes discontentment, selfishness and takes your eyes off God, the Author of marriage and relationships…relationships that are to be built on Him first and His glory. Relationships bult His way are never “me” centered. Dating is all about me isn’t it?
I remember when my husband and I had our first disagreement and it was shocking to me to figure out how to work through that. Being raised with the modern dating system, and having had lots of boyfriends, I was used to just breaking up. We are doing our children a HUGE disservice if we allow/promote the worldly system of dating. It IS divorce training. I’d never considered that it was polygamy training, but that certainly applies too.
We visited a church recently where the pastor said in his sermon “Divorce is an excepted and expected fact of life, and God doesn’t hate us for it. He loves us, and His desire for us is to be happy.” My husband nudged me and said, ‘we need to go’, but I just had to write that statement down. I couldn’t believe such obsurdity was actually being preached from a pulpit, to a very large congregation I might add! As we were discreetly slipping out the back, we heard the pastor began to tell a story from his “first marriage, no, actually this happened in my second marriage”.
If it’s being preached from the pulpit that it’s OK, then it is no surprise that divorce is so rampant among Christians. We need to turn the tide!
Was this church in Illinios because my preacher just preached a four week sermon on why divorse isn’t that bad.
No, this church was in SC; isn’t that just great to know there is more than one fool spreading these lies from the pulpit? God help us!
I was hoping their could be only one but kinda figured the world couldn’t be that lucky.
And the certificate of divorce was only allowed by God because of the hardness of their hearts. He intends marriage to be a reflection of His Love for Israel, and then for His Body and when He makes a covenant, it is forever. I am so thankful my Father has established His relationship with me based not on anything I do or don’t do, but on His Faithfulness, not mine. That doesn’t mean there isn’t Grace and Forgiveness when we stumble. But there is a different approach to problems when we are absolutely committed to our vows. As long as options are considered, meaning if I can’t fix it I will just have to leave, then we are not as dependent on the Lord for His solutions. I don’t understand it all, but I know I give up on things much sooner than He does. Things can look impossible to me and the Lord is just asking me to hold on to Him, trust Him, wait on Him. Please do not hear this as judgment on anyone for past choices. Members of my own family have been through divorces. I believe God is much bigger than I can imagine and nothing I encounter is too big for Him.
“divorce was only allowed by God because of the hardness of their hearts” exactly but many disagree with it. Just wait until you start getting comments to disagree because of abuse and what not. 🙂
Even though Kelly specifically stated: (We’re not discussing abuse in marriage–different topic.) It’ll still come up and be a nice hot debate.
Have a great day!
Have you wondered if Jesus is coming today?
I know. I fully expect to be disagreed with.
But I also know the Lord can redeem any situation, even when we don’t choose well. Even when we blatantly disobey. He will patiently bring us to repentance. But until we get to the point where we will not give up because of a wrong perspective, we miss out on seeing Him move mightily on our behalf. I am not saying I always choose correctly. I have chosen poorly many, many times.
I am saying our God is SO BIG, SO STRONG, AND SO MIGHTY, THERE’S NOTHING MY GOD CANNOT DO! I know if we seek to bring Him Glory, He will accomplish more than we could ever ask or imagine!! I know! I have seen Him do it! He can bring the dead to life: physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc. But we have to seek wisdom to truly understand what He desires to accomplish.
There is no simple answer. But the Lord’s Principles, as stated in Scripture, are True all the time. When we suffer for doing right, we participate in the suffering of Christ. When we commit to wait before Him regardless of how hard it is, He is Faithful to accomplish His purposes. Sometimes that purpose is to cleanse me in the fire of suffering. When He calls me to that, He carries me through it. But during that process, He accomplishes more in me than through almost any other period. If His Purpose is not my cleansing, it may be that He desires to show Himself Mighty through the Protection He provides as I stand in His Truth.
Oh Holy Father,
We seek Your Face. Please reveal Your Will to all of us as we struggle in this area. Please comfort and sustain. Please reveal Your Perfect Truth. Help us not be deceived by the evil one. We desire to bring You Glory. We desire Your Blessing over the covenant of marriage. Help us to allow You to define it for us. Please help us to see our situation from Your perspective and participate fully in accomplishing Your Will. Please allow us to rest in Your Provision and Sufficiency in every dark, hard place. You are the Mighty One. You ARE able. You ARE Holy. Please forgive me for not being completely obedient to every prompting of Your Spirit. Quicken my spirit Lord, humble my heart, continue to draw me to Yourself. May every thought, word, and action bring You Glory. Please help me not seek the removal of hard things, unless that is what brings You the most Glory. Instead, please help me to submit to Your Perfect Will in the midst of the hard things. Thank You for being the Faithful One. Thank You for loving me when I am unlovable. Thank You for always being Enough. My heart is broken as I see the destruction the evil one has accomplished in so many marriages. Please, Lord, heal. Please, Lord, restore. Please, Lord, bandage up the broken hearts and spirits. Bring Hope to the hopeless. Keep our eyes focused on Your Face. Oh Lord, we weep with those who weep. Please help anyone in a broken marriage know how much we love them and want to help carry their burdens. Please move on our behalf. For anyone in a hard place right now, please bring someone alongside them who will be a conduit of Your Love, to walk with them and encourage them. Thank You, Father for being our Abba.
Agreed and Amen!
Wow! A pastor said that! God desires our obedience, if we’re happy its a wonderful circumstance but He wants our obedience. Today’s world has gotten this whole thing so skewed its absurd. Funny thing about it is is that most Christians that I know who are living an obedient lifestyle (obedient to scripture not argumentative with it) are very happy people. In the midst of financial struggles, family heartache, sickness they are still contented and filled with peace. There’s that peace that surpasses understanding again. 🙂
Guess I’ll get on topic now. 🙂
Dating is awful. I didn’t like it when I was single and so did not date much. Yet even with not dating much I didn’t remain unscathed by it. When you date you do give away parts of your heart and I can see why he compared it to polygamy. It fits.
My step-daughter ( a term used only for clarification – I love her as my own) has had 3 children, 2 of whom she has custody and one of which she does not. She also has 2 state sanctioned marriages & divorces. She is a child of this world and quite frankly doesn’t quite understand why her Daddy and I keep telling her she shouldn’t be alone with a man.
Now she’s spiritually maturing and telling us that she wants to “do it right” this time – the poor girl has no idea how different “doing it right” is from what she has been doing. She so much desires what her Daddy and I have but is clueless how to get here.
Ladies, I’m watching her life and I’m shocked! The job she has now she gets harassed by her boss – you know the kind I mean. She had an interview for another position and the idiot sat down close to her and put his hand on her knee. Are these men nothing but children???? I can’t even begin to tell you about all the rest of it here. I’d be online all day. There is absolutely no respect nor consideration from these men – some of whom are married or involved. Is there no line beyond which they will not go. Mercy!
This is the environment that our dating, modern, permissive society has landed us in. Christians have no business being involved in it. Yes, we have to work but we don’t have to behave the way they do. Our pastor said on Sunday that it is better to be 40 yrs. old and unmarried than to be 30 years old married to the wrong person and out of His will. The woman in Matt. 15: 21-28 had GREAT faith, that’s what Jesus said of her. Her faith was so great that she believed even the scraps off the table would be enough.
Where is our faith, Christian ladies? Where is our faith to wait in an unmarried state until He brings along our mate? Why do we not teach our daughters that? Have great faith, wait and pray, stay out of the dating environment, be above reproach and do nothing to make Jesus ashamed of you. Better to live as a single woman for an entire life than to be yoked to someone you end up knowing you shouldn’t be with nor having children with. Consider carefully the things you sow because one day they will be reaped. Reaping is always later than you sowed and reaping is always greater than what you sowed.
I’ve been convicted by this for quite some time and find ridicule to be the norm from people unless the spirit has gotten ahold of them. Even “Christian dating” isn’t christian – let’s just tack christian onto some worldly activity and make it sound better – bah! It doesn’t work and it reeks of being double minded. See the book of James.
Amen!! I was hoping that is where the title was going! People just don’t understand. It isn’t about “God wants us to be happy.” God wants His will to be our main concern, and if you can’t make the answer God gives fit your situation, most just turn away from God, and do as they wish anyway.
We are not going to allow our children to “date” and bring baggage into their marriage. We are raising them to know that marriage is till death, unless there is adultery. We pray everyday that our children become Christians (the 2 old enough to make that decision have) and that they will marry Christians who feel the same.
Yes, dating sets us up in so many ways for problems. When we’re in a dating relationship and things become tough between us, what do we do? Break it off of course! If people have been through a string of dating relationships and then marry, what do we think their inclination will be when their marriage hits a tough spot?
The church doesn’t want to say anything bad about divorce because so many people are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage in the church, they would loose a lot of members. Isn’t that so sad and disgusting?
My favorite couple when I was a teenager seemed to be in love with eachother and loyal. I looked to them as a faithful God fearing married couple. I left for the military and came back to learn that they had divorced and he had knocked up an 18 year old girl. They were already on their 2nd marriage. He married the girl after she had the baby ( so that would be his 3rd marriage) and the church said nothing while all this was going on. They had been faithful members and servants of the church for 20 years. And NO ONE had the guts to speak up and tell Him to stop fooling around with his secretary. Shameful. He died six weeks after they were married, massive heart attack.
Now this little girl is being raised my a mother who does not know the Lord. I was crushed by all of this, it really shook me up. I decided then and there that if another couple were to be on the verge of divorce I would tie them up and lock them in a basement and spray them down with some holy water and pray and fast over them 24/7 until they repented.I’m totally serious. I won’t stand by and twiddle my thumbs hoping for the best.
ANother faithful man in our church decided to date this women in our church, she eventually stopped going to church and no one heard from her, yet they still kept dating. No one said anything!! What’s the point of church if there is no one brave enough to keep eachother accountable. Well they divorced on year after they were married, she decided she was a lesbian. We all saw this coming, but yet we just stood by ( I was only 16 years old and def not in a position to say something, but I opened my mouth up anyways to him and asked him if this was the path he wanted to go down) But no one else did. So sad.
So yes there will def be polygamy and divorce for irreconcilable differences because the church refuses to say that it is wrong. How cowardly.
I promise to raise up my girls the be good Godly wives and mothers, that is my gift/responsibility to their future husband. I will do my job well, I pray that they will find a man whose mother and father did the same. Our goal is not to raise girls with Phds after their names, but our main purpose is to raise Godly women who will serve God by serving their families.
When I was beginning to date I read a book ( i don’t remember which one bc i read many) that siad don’t piece off your heart to every guy that comes along. It’s important to not have sex before marriage, but it’s also important not to give your heart out to every man that you date. So I decided what I wanted in a man/husband/father and I wouldn’t go on a single date if I knew already that they would not fit the bill. I refused to give my self over to someone I could not marry. I am happy to say that when I say I love you to my husband and say all the sweet words to him about how much I admire him and respect him, that those words were said to no other man but him. It’s not just about No sex before marriage,( that is obv important)but it’s equally important not to pour out your heart to many men . My heart and thoughts are sacred and I only wanted to share them with my husband.
I think why so many people have a string of dating relationships is because when they see something they don’t like it’s usually already well into the dating relationship.
You could date for many months before you find out that your boyfriend doesn’t like kids, or doesn’t really believe that a woman should stay home with children, or that he is really lazy and gives up easily when it comes to work. And the reason you don’t find those things out earlier is because young people are not exposed to those things. For example from the ages of 18-24 most young people don’t have a job that they work at for 40 hours a week in order to put food on the table, therefore you can’t see their work ethic until after college.
How can you tell if a woman is going to be a good keeper of the home while she lives in a college dorm? How can you tell if she is going to be a good mother if there are no younger siblings or cousins to see her interact with?
I didn’t date until I was in a position to see how that man dealt with the common responsibilities of life. And I went on many many dates to find one. I didn’t have parents to do the whole courtship thing with me. But as soon as I could tell that the man I was dating was not going to be a good responsible husband/father, I broke up and was on to the next one, and I already knew what I wanted, I just had to see if that man was genuine and could back up his words with his lifestyle. that usually didn’t take me more than a couple of dates to figure out. I wasn’t going to try and work it out, I wasn’t married to him yet. In Dr. Laura’s words “Choose wisely, then treat kindly”
I know that my girls won’t have to go through the whole string of dating that I did, because we will be there with her guiding her to find someone worthy of courting/dating in hopes of marriage.
“The church doesn’t want to say anything bad about divorce because so many people are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage in the church, they would loose a lot of members. Isn’t that so sad and disgusting?”
Not that they wish to refrain from hurting the already scarred, but yes, that they’d keep the truth away. Most divorced people already know it’s terrible; I just hope they don’t buy into the culture belief that it’s regular and acceptable. That’s the message pastors need to be sure they don’t allow to be spread.
Kelly, I want to ask something before I say anything else: based on your statement “In God’s eyes, a couple can’t really get a biblical divorce. They can get the state to give them a piece of paper that says they’re divorced, but He says they’re still married and if they remarry it is….yep, polygamy”, I have to ask, just to be clear, do you think there’s no exception for divorce? Nothing that would legitimately free a couple and allow them to heal without being bound into polygamy?
No, that’s why I said a couple can’t get an “unbiblical” divorce. A no-fault divorce is a man’s dissolving of what God has joined and so He never dissolves the marriage which is why He says a remarriage is considered adultery.
(I should qualify this answer: I’m not sure of the correct biblical position of remarriage. I don’t find evidence for remarriage in Scripture except the following “symbolic” explanation): The best that I understand it, there are times (in the hardness of our hearts and unrepentant sin) where a spouse breaks the covenant of marriage which would have originally resulted in death. Under the new civil law, literal death is not required, but a “spiritual death” within the marriage takes places and frees the other spouse to remarry.
I will add that these situations should be handled with the utmost care and oversight of wise and godly counsel. I don’t think adultery should automatically cause a spouse to seek divorce. Repentance and reconciliation should first be sought. Divorce should never be a default position.
So I believe there could possibly be rare circumstances where a spouse may be free to remarry after divorce.
“No, that’s why I said a couple can’t get an “unbiblical” divorce”
OH, I thought that was a mis-type, that you meant to say “According to God, we can’t get a BIBLICAL divorce (meaning one approved by Him).” Oh thank goodness. Thank you, Kelly.
I got saved when I was 21 and decided not to date or spend time alone with men. I saw inappropriate relationships happening in our “life group” and did not want the heartache. I also did not want a guy to be able to just “hang out” with me. I prayed for God to provide me a godly husband and married at 22. Now get this: He and I both knew we wanted to marry eachother WITHOUT ever having a date! We just spent time getting to know eachother with our group of mutual friends. We got married less than 5 months after we decided to court and that was almost 8 years ago.
Needless to say, there will be no dating for our children and it does set you up for the unbiblical disposable mentality you describe Kelly.
This is an interesting thought. People in the dating world who SLEEP with dates are most definitely performing something akin to polygamy, in flesh and emotion. I still can’t believe a liberal who told me “sex is power, and teens like power”, defending TEENAGE sex. She said I had a Pollyanna view because I disagreed; sure. I just look at the real world and the real human heart, hon.
May I just challenge ONE thing? Jesus does give an exception for divorce- adultry- BUT, is there any place ANY WHERE in the new testament where He (or any of the apostles) condone remarriage? Paul says in the epistles that a woman should be reconciled to her husband, or to remain single. He says that death is the only way one is free to remarry. This idea of a “spiritual death” allowing remarriage… I don’t see this backed any where in scripture. In fact, when Jesus was discussing divorce and marriage, the disciples seemed to grasp the enormity of what he was saying when they replied that maybe no one should get married! (My paraphrase) Marriage is permanent! As I understand scripture, as well as the teaching on the pre-Constantine church, divorce is permitted for adultry, but remarriage is not allowed unless a partner dies.
Amy,
I am willing to accept that position, and do actually lean in that direction. I had heard a godly man/scholar explain the “spiritual death” thing once and am also willing to give that thought…in a nutshell, I’m not certain. It *seems* so unfair to our human nature that if one spouse breaks covenant and divorces that the other spouse is still bound.
Nevertheless, we can’t be about what’s fair, only what is Scriptural. Still pondering, but thank you for bringing that up.
P.S. I tweaked my above answer to reflect my uncertainty of position 😉
Thanks for your gracious reply. 🙂
On my end, I had never heard the spiritual death position, so I too will think on that and will also ask my husband what he thinks about it. I must say though that I feel the safest with sticking to just what scripture says, and as of yet, I have not found any passages that support that.
Still pondering on my end as well. 🙂 <
It’s not only unfair, it’s monstrous. God doesn’t place unrealistic and monstrous commands on His children, Amy. I recommend you read this: http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/2009/03/beauty-for-ashes-a-testimony-3/ Divorce is divorce, the legal dissolving of a marriage whose convenant has already been broken. It’s NOT really a divorce, if the couple’s considered bound in any way, and what a disgusting rope to noose them with, offering non-freedom.
I am sorry if you find this so very offensive. I am willing to consider any scriptural contradictions, but I, at this point, disagree. I don’t think it is monstrous that God intends for one man and one woman to remain joined for life. I think it is beautiful.
I once heard soomeone compare the one flesh relationship to taking a blue ball of clay and a yellow one, kneading them together, and ending with green. How can one ever sperate the blue or yellow?
His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are higher than ours. Could it not be that what we consider unfair, what we consider a lack of freedom, might be His protection for us?
I wanted to add that I read the article you linked to, and while I respect Staci very much, I don’t agree with all her conclusions. There are a lot of extrabiblical sources she quotes, and I understand her points and greatly appreciate the highly emotional nature of this subject, but I still do not see any BIBLICAL support for that position. That does not mean I don’t think she is an amazing woman- she is. It’s just, forgive me, the Bible alone is my support. I am not trying to anger anyone, I just don’t see any verses in scripture that condone remarriage, except in the case of death.
Well I agre with Stacy, and I don’t believe God would leave us in an incomplete divorce, a half-severed limb.
“Could it not be that what we consider unfair, what we consider a lack of freedom, might be His protection for us?”
Protection, staying shackled emotionally and spiritually to a dead thing? That’s rot to the heart, almost like saying, “I forgive your sins but I won’t be forgetting them”. When something sours or breaks permanently, Amy, it’s not beautiful or holy. Some marriages were false in spirit and never holy to begin with. Here’s another comparison: divorce can be like amputating a limb. But sometimes amputation is necessary, when a limb is diseased and death to the whole body will occur otherwise.
The bottom line is this: if we believe there’s legitimate divorce at all, then remarriage shouldn’t be a question. Either the divorce is complete or it’s not.
I believe God can bring beauty from the ashes, sweet sister!
Can I just, in meekness, with a gentle, loving spirit, compel you to search the scriptures for answers to these difficult questions? I know they are counter-culture, and I know they are shocking, but I believe them to be true. Could we set aside emotion for a moment and see just what God says about it, not adding or subtracting anything?
Would you be willing?
I have already studied this, and it’s more than emotion; it’s what kills and what heals. Remarriage is part of beauty from the ashes. You may also wish to read Stacy’s review of a book by John MacArthur (a man not at all partial to emotion) and the comments on that page.
No disrespect meant AT ALL, but, again, I am not as interested in what man has to say on the subject (Pastor MacArthur or Mrs Chancey) but what the Bible says about it.
Doing anything that is against God’s word is not beauty from ashes, it is deception. I don’t want to be responsible for leading any one anywhere except right back to the scriptures.
If you have any scriptural references, I am more than willing to read them and consider them.
I strongly, strongly urge you to search the scriptures.
I don’t believe it is preventing remarriage that kills. Sin kills.
Beauty from the ashes is what God can do to ressurrect new life out of something dead. Nothing is impossible with God! Hallelujah!
An assumption is being made here that I think can be deceptive if not recognized: A divorced woman does not have to remarry to be “complete”. If a woman is not complete in the Lord, she will never be made complete by a man, even a wonderful husband. If someone is already remarried, absolutely do everything within your power to allow the Lord to make it into a beautiful reflection of His Love. But, if a woman is divorced, and believes it is not His best to remarry, the Lord will honor that and provide everything she needs to walk in that path. And do it in a way that brings Him great glory. He will be everything to her and will grow her into an amazing testimony of His Provision.
I never said a woman had to be remarried to be complete, Antbed. Marriage is the normal state of things and if a woman or man was told they’d be forbidden to ever begin a beautiful new union with someone else, that’s a horrible punishment, not freedom, for getting divorced.
Amy, we’ll just have to disagree. You’ve clearly never been in this situation, but to clarify my intentions, I was never interested in what MAN had to say. MacArthur was studying what GOD had to say, and it’s beneficial to learn from older and more educated people. After all, we are man too and we are “saying something” on this as well.
I don’t really see what my personal experience has to do with the matter, nor do I think it is fair to brush off my thoughts because you think I am inexperienced in it. Whether or not I have been in the situation makes no difference to what the Bible says AT ALL.
But, for the record, I have.
And I agree we should learn from other men (and women) as long as they are offering the Bible to us and not their own personal interpretations of it. That was all I was trying to say.
“I don’t really see what my personal experience has to do with the matter, nor do I think it is fair to brush off my thoughts because you think I am inexperienced in it. Whether or not I have been in the situation makes no difference to what the Bible says AT ALL.
But, for the record, I have”
I’m sorry, I thought I saw a picture of you and your husband on your blog; you were hugging and listed as having the same last name. And since you don’t approve of second marriage, I assumed it had to be a first.
I didn’t intend to brush off your thoughts; I just know experience adds empathy, and sometimes further study. I do believe the people I referenced were offering me a more accurate and learned view of the Bible than I’d had.
Experience does add empathy. But it does not make someone more or less able to discern truth. I *am* empathetic. VERY. Very!!
To clarify, my mother is in her 4th marriage. She was married to a man (my father) who was horrifically abusive. She had her 2nd husband cheat on her, repeatedly. I was not divorced myself, but I completely understand how devastating it can be.
I can also testify to how distructive remarriages can be, on all parties involved. I grew up with three step-fathers, all of which were supposed to be Christian.
I don’t share this lightly. I certainly do not wish any disrespect on my mother. I symapthize with her because I lived through the abuse, and because I love my mother more than almost anyone on earth.
It does not change what the Bible says.
And I think it is natural for us to look for interpretations that support what we want to hear- I have done it. There are passages I still struggle to understand (like headcoverings, for example… I just do not get that one…) But my experiences, or yours, or my mothers… they do not change what the Bible says.
I did not mean to imply that I had been divorced myself. I just meant that I deeply love people who are in this situation, I have lived in that environment, etc. It makes me very compassionate, to be sure.
You don’t have to BE divorced in order to tell what the Bible says about it.
I don’t know how else to say this… I am searching for gentle words. I do not mean to discount your feelings, emotions, thoughts, expereinces (or the experiences of those you have loved and ministered to) BUT, those things do not change the truth. That was all I was trying to say.
If we believed that God really intended our marriage vows to mean forever, it would cause us to: (a)make the decision to marry very, very carefully, (b)look more at the character of our intended instead of their personality, knowing that character is imperative to a long-term relationship, (c)listen carefully to the wisdom of those around us in discerning that character, (d)look at ourselves and our preparedness for such a commitment, (e)take every problem in a marriage to the Lord to earnestly seek His solutions, because if we are committed to a marriage forever then we have to either solve our problems or live with them, (f)be more dependent on the Lord, knowing that we don’t have the ability to be in a relationship forever without Him doing it through us.
We have no “right” to be happy. We have the “responsibility” to be obedient. The choice to be happy is always ours. Even in the worst possible situations, people filled with His Spirit can overflow with Joy born through Him. The converse is also true: even in wonderful circumstances, we can choose to be miserable.
There are consequences to our choices. Expecting them to be removed because we realize, in hindsight, that we chose poorly does not serve to motivate us, or the next generation to whom we are responsible for leaving a godly heritage, to take those choices more seriously. There comes a time to take a stand and to suffer for doing what is right so that the balance in a culture can be restored. If we continue to allow the foundations of godly families to be eroded, there will be nothing left for our children and grandchildren and great grandchildren to build upon.
We must be very, very careful about saying that God couldn’t possibly intend us to “suffer” the consequences of our wrong/poor choices, when He has provided a way, in every situation and circumstance, for us to stand in His Righteousness. He allows us to suffer the consequences of our choices because it is the most loving way for us to learn to be holy. We can’t control the choices of another person, but we can control how we respond to those choices. That is what we are responsible.
Bill Gothard says, “When we focus on our rights, it produces rebellion. When we focus on our responsibilities, it produces revival.”
Please understand that I truly want what is the very, very best for you, for all of us. I always squirm when this topic comes up because I know what I believe is not going to be popular. I would love, at times, to be proven wrong because it would definitely be easier not to be compelled to speak these things. But these principles have proven true in every single circumstance I have ever witnessed. And so the most loving thing I can do is to testify to His Truth because it always brings forth fruit and life. My heart is heavy in prayer that my words here will convey only what He wants to be said/heard.
“There comes a time to take a stand and to suffer for doing what is right so that the balance in a culture can be restored.”
Such a wise, painfully important statement.
I disagree with a lot of what Bill Gothard says, Antbed; more than sacrificing flippant happiness, he also seems to exhort cutting vital parts of ourselves off. Suffering consequences doesn’t mean it should be forever; if the marriage is dead, it’s dead, and living in bondage to the corpse for “righteousness’s” sake will produce sour fruit along with any good fruit. There are some situations where joy cannot spring, unpopular as this may sound to a Christian, and claiming a “right” to be happy really has nothing to do with divorcing when it’s absolutely necessary OR having the important knowledge that once a complete divorce is made, you’re not required to live as though it hasn’t occured.
Producing sour fruit only happens when I am suffering for my own sake. Suffering for the sake of Christ produces the sweetest fruit. Fruit that changes an entire world.
And the Joy of which I speak is absolutely, positively available in any and every situation we will ever experience. It is not dependent on circumstances. It is dependent on the Character of Christ. There is no pit so deep and dark that His Joy does not reach. Not only does it reach, it overflows. Do I choose to walk in it? Do I choose to come to the end of self and allow Him to victoriously live through me? The answer to that question is the only limitation that can be placed on that Holy Resource: His Person.
If your spouse has already divorced you, then you’re divorced, but you shouldn’t remarry. Being divorced doesn’t mean you have to move on. You can patiently wait for your spouse and pray for reconciliation (after all, that is what our God is in the business of).
If your ex-spouse remarries, you are free to remarry. Not that you have to.
However before this happens, you yourself, have the choice NOT to *ever* consider your marriage “dead”. You can choose not to give up on that other *living* person, whom God loves and died for, too.
None of us have any right to be happy (even if we’ve been cruelly wronged by another), we have no right to give up on a relationship that God ordained, (no matter how it began, holy or otherwise). I have no right to give up on my spouse, and they have no right to give up on me, when Jesus pursued us to His very death.
If Christ could endure horrible abuse and the shameful death of the cross to redeem us, how can we do any less for our spouse? Even if the marriage is never reconciled, we are a testimony to God’s love when we refuse to give up. I’m so thankful God didn’t give up on me.
How many marriages are not really dead, but rather the injured one doesn’t in actuality consider the other person worth it? A hardened heart, and a refusal to admit that the other is a valuable person. Someone feels they “deserve” better.
None of us “deserve” any better, and God calls us to obedience, whatever our lot.
Lest you think I spout theological ideals that aren’t actually practical from an ivory tower, let me inform you I have died a million deaths, and experienced cruel suffering to come to this conclusion, which was and still *isn’t* very popular with me.
But I only have so many choices in life. I want to base them on truth.
Amen!!! This was beautifully written. Thank you!
“And the Joy of which I speak is absolutely, positively available in any and every situation we will ever experience”
No it isn’t. I’ve lain on the floor enduring attacks, infected spears to the heart during an assault from Satan. I was unable to do anything but pray for it to stop, and afterward I was too sick in heart to do much of anything for a while, too. Granted, this is unlikely what the marriage situation is like, but the point that joy’s always possible no matter what is false. There will be seasons of sadness, maybe even misery. Some will have God’s comforting light, others will seem dark without end. Living in a dead marriage, a non-marriage, is not a Christ-like thing. People kill themselves thinking it’s for God all the time, I’ve seen it OVER and over again, and we need to be cautious in what we exhort; we are His temples and we’re meant to take care of them, painfully reconstruct them, but not maim them.
Sounds so simple Sara, and it’s not. Thousands of unordained and unholy unions have taken place. Abuse occurs and yes, marriages die. Things happen that are irreparable. God cares more about hearts than legalities; it’s the hearts that make the marriages. Living in an unholy union, condemning yourself to misery, is not an admirable, saintly act that will preserve society or the family unit.
Dear Jennifer,
I am so very sorry for the pain you have endured. I want so desperately for you to know to the marrow of your being His Sufficiency. I wouldn’t have courage to draw breath if He were not anchoring me to this life. I do not know you except through your words here. But I KNOW He cannot deny His Nature. He loves you beyond anything you can possibly comprehend. He’s that way about His children. He is more Powerful than anything the evil one can throw at you. I understand how deceptive the evil one’s power can appear, but your Jesus defeated him completely and forever. That means that you stand in that victory! We have to fight the lies of the deceiver with the Truth that is embodied in Christ. We are Joyful in every situation because the victory is already won. Even when we, working in our own strength, lose a battle, the final outcome is NOT in doubt. Therefore, we have JOY. It is completely separate from my feelings. Joy is the condition of my spirit.
Woohoo! Awesome job!
Hmm- this seems to have posted in the wrong place- it was supposed to be after Antbed’s comment, about finding joy through Christ in any situation- it was spot on.
I’m guessing you mean Antbed? Just confirming, since your comment came under mine. Have you noticed that with these nesting comments, after a chain of so many, the reply button under a few names starts disappearing? Weird.
Thank you for your wonderfully kind words, Antbed (I hope you see this, there’s no “reply” button beneath your post, so I had to post it under Amy’s). I do know, in general, that we are Joyful. And I am too 🙂 God’s done AMAZING things for me and I trust Him completely; I just meant feeling joyful doesn’t happen in every moment. And some make themselves unhappy by a condition that’s not good for their soul, thinking they’re being obedient to Christ. Christians can be so confused and imbalanced here. In any case, thank you for sharing your confidence and joy in Him 🙂 It’s a boost.
“If someone is already remarried, absolutely do everything within your power to allow the Lord to make it into a beautiful reflection of His Love. But, if a woman is divorced, and believes it is not His best to remarry, the Lord will honor that and provide everything she needs to walk in that path. And do it in a way that brings Him great glory. He will be everything to her and will grow her into an amazing testimony of His Provision”
Beautifully said.
You’ve not offended me, Amy; thank you 🙂 And I don’t believe in looking for answers I WANT to hear, just to UNDERSTAND something hard, something that even seems to contradict itself (like those headcoverings, for ex). If someone gives me interpretation that make sense and had research and studt behind it, I have no reason to disbelieve it. There is NOTHING wrong with searching a confusing issue deeper; sometimes it’s really NOT what we think it is, or what seems obvious.
*study*
ps- I wanted to add one last thing for consideration. Have you ever thought about the fact that whenever there is a rare exception that is allowed, people always assume THEY are the exception? I wonder how many people would really go through with a divorce if they realized their only options are to either remain single for life, or reconcile? Because the truth is, for MOST (NOT ALL) people, the ONLY reason to obtain a divorce (rather than a seperation) is to remarry.
I absolutely agree. If remarriage were not an option, no doubt couples would look a lot harder at the “impossibility” of their situations. There is a song that says “Love is a house we enter and commit to never leave…so lock the door behind you and throw away the key…” It would change our perspective if we viewed it that way. Not only our current marriages but the way we choose a marital partner.
ps- I am really sorry if the above post came out as harsh or rude- I didn’t mean for it to! It is one of the issues with writing- we can not always communicate a gentle or concerned tone like we could in person. Anyway, I hope it is taken in a kind spirit and I am sorry if it unnecessarily offends any one.
You didn’t speak harshly, Amy, but thank you for your thoughtfulness 🙂 This is a volatile topic on it’s own. If it’s truly a divorce, remarriage must be a possibility. Otherwise, it’s like being outside prison walls but wearing a bracelet or name tag that says you’re a thief: you’re still stuck, shackled to the past. I’ve seen the “no remarriage” idea nearly ruin a woman’s life. Seeing marriage in a flippant way has wrecked the family unit, not to mention God’s design, but when a Biblical divorce does occur, it needs to be complete in severence.
I ask in all gentleness, do you have verses/passages from scripture that support this?
As I understand divorce (biblically) it is meant as a last resort, allowed to protect the innocent party. The Bible does not say anything about remarriage in these cases.
I know this will not be popular either, but I don’t actually see any biblical evidence that suggests a woman can divorce her husband. It would seem the divorce is to be initiated from the man. In cases where a woman is married to an unbeliever, she is commanded to live with him if he is pleased to stay with her, and to allow him to leave if he would leave (this applies as husbands to wives as well) but I see no evidence to suggest a woman should initiate a divore.
I also consider in my heart the fact that most divorces in America are initiated by women.
It is worth considering.
I beg you to put passion/emotion aside momentarily and search the scriptures. I am always open to being corrected by scripture.
This has been a subject my husband/our church has studied extensively. I am only trying to show what IS (or isn’t!) in the Bible, and not adding anything to it or subtracting anything from it.
I encourage you to do the same, sweet sister.
“I don’t actually see any biblical evidence that suggests a woman can divorce her husband. It would seem the divorce is to be initiated from the man. In cases where a woman is married to an unbeliever, she is commanded to live with him if he is pleased to stay with her, and to allow him to leave if he would leave (this applies as husbands to wives as well) but I see no evidence to suggest a woman should initiate a divore”
A mentally tortured woman told me this, that only men could divorce and that she believed she’d be bound forever to the monster who beat her, lied about her to the courts, and turned her family against her. Either divorce is complete or it’s not, Amy, and there’s no gender limit. Here’s a quote from someone on the subject: “At that time among the Jews, there existed a practiced called “putting away.” If the wife displeased her husband, he could put her away by sending her away, without divorcing her. She wouldn’t be legally free from the marital relationship, but she wouldn’t be living with the husband. If she remarried in this instance, the husband would be forcing her to commit adultery, since she was still legally bound to him. BUT, as Jesus says, if the husband puts away his wife because she committed adultery, then she’s ALREADY an adulteress. The husband can’t MAKE her an adulteress by putting her away… she already IS in that circumstance. We’re interpreting His statement as an “exception,” when it seems to be merely a clarifier.”
Any time there seemed to be something strange in the Bible, Amy, something that just didn’t seem to make sense, I’d trust God, and eventually the meaning of the passage became amazingly clear. For ex: some reference the passage where God says if we are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, then He’ll spit us out, and claim that this means God would rather us be cold towards Him than uncertain. Nope, actually not. My Bible study watched a video on this and, as it turns out, water from the streams and banks were used for healing purposes. Hot water cleansed and relieved inner pain, cold water soothed fevers and was good for drinking. But lukewarm water? Nasty stuff, no purpose at all, better to spit it out! This, then, was the meaning of this passage: if we don’t practice healing, comfort, soothing and cleansing as Christians, we’re as useless and distasteful as lukewarm water. Awesome, huh? Such revelations are amazing to me.
I’d like to leave it at this, Amy, to avoid drawing something out. I know you’ll probably not be convinced right now and I think you’re a sweet sister too, so I trust your search with God will be fruitful. Good morning 🙂 Whoops, afternoon.
Ok Jennifer. Thanks for your responses.
I only want to express that I *do* very much see your points and understand where you are coming from. There are a lot of horrific relationships out there, unfortunately, and I hear in you a heart of compassion and righteous anger toward mistreatment and injustice.
I get that.
And I admire you for it.
If you come across any scriptue that pertains to this, please feel free to pass it on. I don’t mean to be offensive by brushing off the extrabiblical sources you quoted/explained, I just find that there are a million different books/commentaries/opinions, some good, many wrong. I think they can be helpful, but only when they have biblical backing. That’s what I’m trying to base everything I say off of- what the Bible says. I don’t want to just say what I think or feel is right, because honestly, I can be wrong a lot.
Anyway, God bless you. 🙂
Thank you for your kind spirit and respect, Amy 🙂 The reason I quoted one lady was because I thought she was offering Scriptural backing; I often refer to people more experienced than I.
Agree with the post. A verse that speaks to an unbelieving spouse leaving is 1 Corinthians 7: 10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
That’s proven to be remarkably true, Kelly, as evidenced by a couple in our church. The couple was new to being really active in the church, and the husband was jealous of his wife’s activites there, afraid another man would take interest. She consulted our pastor, and he told her about those passages, leading her husband in example. And the result was wonderful! Her husband became active in the church too, coming to love it as much as her. He become one of the people to hand out programs before a sermon, smiling the whole time 🙂
This is a can of worms Kelly! I did not weigh in on this initially because when I recently addressed the issue, it caused hurt among my remarried readers. My post wasn’t about this issue directly, but more about how sex scandals that seem to keep popping up in the church shouldn’t be disconnected from the church’s failure to protect the only Biblically authorized place for sexual expression, marriage. And how our lax position on divorce and remarriage is a part of the problem.
The comments here are good, and I do plan to read the Stacy MacDonald piece linked to. It just saddens me that the church is so immersed inthe culture of divorce, and so averse to the idea of living without our heart’s desires out of love for Our Savior and for the sake of the truth.
There really are no easy answers here, are there?
No…it’s a volatile topic no matter. Which is why I expressed that I didn’t want to engage in the theological questions of divorce and remarriage (ha ha) only to be clear that among believers, we have no business entertaining a disposable, flippant divorce mindset. I believe the church has evidenced a lack of the grave sacredness God places on marriage resulting in an affront to the picture of Christ and His bride. And I believe that the modern dating system is part, though not all, of that problem and wanted to encourage readers to consider that.
And I believe we should be able to (and should) discuss these things without being criticized for “offending”. More on that topic later since I just read a newspaper column by a pastor who decided it was in his church’s best interest to stop talking about family “ideals” (read: what God says) since most of his congregation’s reality didn’t match up with those ideals. Ick.
Oh Kelly! I’m so sorry! I didn’t realize you didn;t want discussion about divorce and remarriage, I thought you didn’t want discussion on *abuse*. I thought that was what I read…. In any case, I meant no disrespect to you- it is YOUR blog after all, and I didn’t mean to nullify your request.
Apologies!
Amy,
Oh no, no apology necessary. The whole topic is convoluted and I realize very difficult to discuss in “compartments”. I had just said:
“Obviously this could spawn deep theological discussion on marriage and divorce, but since there is an epidemic of “no-fault divorce” and I’m no theologian, I’ll keep it simple and just refer to that for discussion’s sake.”
so I wouldn’t be expected to expound on a topic that I myself am still studying 😉 No problem.
“More on that topic later since I just read a newspaper column by a pastor who decided it was in his church’s best interest to stop talking about family “ideals” (read: what God says) since most of his congregation’s reality didn’t match up with those ideals. Ick”
God help us. People aren’t bothering to live up to God’s rules, so why don’t we just lower everyone’s standards, as Jennie Chancey said?
Oh no, me, too! I missed that. I also thought you wanted us to stay away from the abusive marriage situation. I’m so very sorry I misunderstood.
I just caught the abuse part too, which is why I posted 1 Cor. Sorry about that! That is always the red herring I am used to hearing and I guess my brain shut off after that.
What always gets me when considering these things (in the abstract)are:
– dating was NOT a gratifying experience for most of us who did it the world’s way, why would we get divorced and dive into that again?I have to giggle to think that what every single man wants is a 43 year old gal with three kids…how anyone manages to get remarried is a total mystery to me. Who has the time?
– if a marriage was so bad as to be left, what’s going to make a new one any better if I’m still half of it? It seems no one ever considers that the rotten fruit they smell might be them.
Divorce to me is like looking into a snowglobe of the consequence of the fall….breaking covenant, covetousness, idolatry, adultery, lying, stealing, dishonor, killing (I think the notion of spiritual death has some merit here)…all are there in the divorce process, with a little rationalization and blame thrown in for good measure. It’s stiflingly sad that it is so commonplace, and that the church cannot bring herself to grow a backbone in the matter.
I am currently reading “Created To Be His Help Meet” by Debi Pearl and I have been gaining more biblical understanding on this topic. But even prior to this I had already started seeking literature on how to raise my children and plan for a non-dating type of courtship. I dated and regret the results but I’m not a creative thinker and need to hear ideas on how courtship happens without dating.
I am a product of a mother who has married 4 times (the 3rd & 4th time to the same man). I knew as a very young person that I was going to marry one man and that was it.
http://www.surrender2survive.blogspot.com
You’ve just demonstrated one of the root needs for Christian guidebooks and guidance, CC. “Passionate Housewives” being one of the best on this topic. And I disagree with a lot of Debi Pearl’s book, but the companion journal is actually a gem of study and encouragement. And of course “The Love Dare”..
Cottage child,
It’s not the marriage that most people are looking for when they jump in again. Some are, don’t misunderstand me. Most people who are not believers aren’t even bothering to get married (or remarried) anymore.
Marriage rates are plummeting because most people enjoy the perks without the responsibilities. Christians however, can’t do that. Since celibacy is not an appealing option at all to those who have experienced the alternative, we have watered down the terms by which we can remarry.
Hi, Terry – agreed! Marriage is a barely a passing thought for many. I should have substituted “new relationship” for “marriage”.
It’s sad, all around, looking for something that doesn’t exist in the contemporary dating process, either way.
You do realize that, regarding dating/courtship, you’re espousing the commandments of men at practically a doctrinal level?
You really have no critical mass of evidence about the evils of “modern dating” beyond personal opinion – your own and those who taught you the fundamentalist beliefs you live by.
Courtship isn’t practiced for the benefit of sons and daughters. It’s practiced for the benefit of the patriocentric system. Without it, the system crumbles because control is lost, and the system thrives on control.
Actually, your vehemence (or “revenge” as you put it) toward patriarchy has clouded your understanding and conclusions. I haven’t even mentioned “courtship”; I’ve only suggested that the modern form of dating is not, on a common sense level, practical for preparing for monogamy in marriage. A non-believer or a non-patriarchal family could just as easily see the absurdity in the modern dating system. Don’t tread where I haven’t gone.
So exactly what alternative do you propose to the “world’s system of modern dating”, seeing as how it’s such a poor choice? Are you suggesting that you don’t view courtship as the alternative?
The alternative, regardless of what you call it, is under-girded with the premise that young people with no immediate interest in marriage should not be participating in romantic relationships. The purpose of “dating” is to find a marriage partner. A typical 14 year old isn’t looking for that and thus the very idea that she/he should be romantically involved is absurd.
Pursing marriage is, apart from our relationship with Christ, THE most important earthly decision. As a person approaches marriages, he or she should seek counsel: first of parents, then of other godly influences. “Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed.” The idea that to have parents involved in the decision making process for marriage is “controlling” is absurd at best, and certainly not biblical. Grown men seek counsel on a building project but parents aren’t to be sought with the life-changing decision of their own children? Insane.
Those are the main two distinguishing factors I see in beginning to pursue marriage in a more successful way.
So, you’re saying that the bible grants you the authority (instructs it, even), as a parent, to oversee the relationship/marriage process of an adult child?
I’m not talking about counsel. I’m talking about oversight and imposition of that counsel as an assumed right or a duty, because the bible speaks directly to that, too, and not flatteringly.
I’m all for anyone pursuing wise counsel for any life decision, particularly from and beginning with parents, with the exception of parents who aren’t qualified beyond DNA to counsel.
Lewis, I agree with your concept and I’ve seen the harm of parents controlling adult offspring more than once. But that’s not what Kelly’s advocating.
Hi, Lewis – I’m curious about your view on appropriate “dating” scenarios. I don’t know if you’re a dad, but do you see yourself stepping out of the picture when your kids reach the age of majority to figure it out for themselves? What, in your view, is the Biblical approach, or do you share that on you own site so we might read it? (it’s a sincere question, not bait)
The scripture doesn’t really speak to it at all. It only provides accounts of various individuals from ancient pagan-influenced cultures procuring a spouse, and often in very seedy fashion.
Once children, mine or those of anyone else, become adults, they’re responsible for their own decisions. If a parent hasn’t made the effort to prepare them to make those decisions, they’ve failed as a parent. In 1st Peter 4:15, the scriptures instruct us to avoid becoming “not one’s own overseer”, translated “meddler” or “busybody” from the Greek compound word alletropiskopos. That doesn’t mean that you don’t offer advice when asked for it, but beyond that, you get into meddling – alletropiskopos.
I also know that a scripture that patriocentrics use frequently, Numbers 30, is used blindly. A young woman was a girl under 12 years of age. After the age of twelve, the girl was considered socially, legally, and otherwise, an adult in Jewish society. Her father no longer had the authority to overrule her decisions.
cottage child…I read your reply down below, and to be frank, I don’t begin to understand what you’re saying. It seems you’re speaking, very liberally, where the bible doesn’t, and doing so on behalf of the bible.
The bible most certainly does make it clear that the God expects His children to grow and discern on their own, becoming able to understand the meat of instruction in the scriptures, learning to determine right from wrong, without constant spiritual babysitting.
I haven’t espoused any particular worldview. I don’t even like the term. I only speak to the age of 18 because at that age, a parent can no longer assume responsibility for a child legally in this country and most others. It’s actually a more conservative age than the one spoken to in Jewish society, the age of 12 for a girl and 13 for a boy, (which had nothing specifically to do with marriage), and only made reference to that because that was the standard when the OT law was given. God makes it pretty clear there that there comes a time when a parent must step out of the way.
“You also do not hesitate to accuse and attempt to correct the wife of another man – someone outside of your authority – while arguing that lack of authority is the ultimate problem with what you understand of courtship”
There’s nothing in the scripture that suggests I’m out of bounds in addressing what I see as aberrant belief or teaching, regardless of whom or where it stems from. And, trust me, one thing you won’t find me advocating is the notion that there’s a lack of authority in courtship.
“Lewis, as I consider the construct for parental authority: if God is our ultimate parent/author(ity), then we’re forever under His care. Even non-believers are subject to His authority.
Another situation would be the authority of earthly parents – as parents, we’re to follow God’s example.”
I don’t think you’ll find biblical support for the idea that you’re to be to your children (particularly adult children) as God is to you in terms of authority. That ultimately leaves your children with two masters.
I really don’t think God ever intended the family unit to be raised to deity, and I’m confident that God never intended His people to build their faith entirely on an authority structure. If you took away the authority structure, would there be any faith?
Hi, Lewis – thanks for your reply. I haven’t – liberally or otherwise – spoken on the Bible’s behalf. I’ve read, asked and and studied, and learned -and accepted and appreciate that all people – even those firm in the faith – operate from a lens or paradigm – “world view” is what we’ve used for this discussion. To deny that is to deny the experiences God has used to form us…there’s no reason for doing that, and it’s nothing to be defensive about. Yes, we’re to transcend foolish trappings, I know I’ve grown out of a few oddball ideas, and I can’t as a Christian validate, say – Devil worship – as a legitimate world view, but I think it’s easy to over-analyze the term. It’s also useful in conversation to not assign motive or intention to the other party. I never once insinuated that the family should be deified, nor do I live in such a way. Again, your world-view – the one you don’t have? – is showing ;).
Of course I think some Christian world views are skewed – I don’t know how someone, for example, could examine the Bible and not recognize Scripture that establishes spheres of authority. Start in Genesis and work our way forward, we’re likely to loose count in the first five chapters. That said, we can agree, faith isn’t tethered to authority (Praise God) or other extraneous circumstances. Faith, I could argue, exists mightily outside of righteous authority. I’m grateful for the intellect to be able to manage those two concepts, and others, simultaneously.
As for my sphere of authority, I’m not your parent or your older sister, or any sort of religious scholar, so I don’t presume to lecture you. Lectures don’t accomplish much, anyway, LOL :). I’ll just invite you to reread. Nice visiting with you!
Lewis,
It would probably be helpful if you would simply read what I’m saying and stop trying to ascribe to me words I haven’t said 😉 I know you’ve been badly burned in a “courtship” relationship. Courtship can mean 1000 things to 1000 people, so let’s not villainize a word we can’t even define.
To answer your question…no, what I said was (copy and paste though you could just go back and read it) “As a person approaches marriage, he or she should seek counsel: first of parents, then of other godly influences.”
That looks different for every family. We want to be very involved in our children’s marriage choices. Choose for them? Of course not. “Control them”? Of course not. Involved. As in getting to know the potential spouse and sharing with our young adults pros and cons we see. They also want our oversight. (At least the one closest to marriage so far.) It’s a natural thing in a family where parents and children love and trust each other and want the best for each other and are already in the habit of asking and receiving counsel.
I think of Lemuel’s mother writing to him in Proverbs 31. He was most likely an adult. Was she meddling? No she was doing what every normal, caring parent does.
You can’t put it in a box though and say, “There…you’re doing it wrong”. It’s just a principle of wisdom…that’s all.
So, what you’re describing most definitely is courtship, and there’s really only one way to practice it where adult children are concerned.
“That looks different for every family. We want to be very involved in our children’s marriage choices. Choose for them? Of course not. “Control them”? Of course not. Involved.”
Involving yourself equates to a manner of control, particularly if a child has been conditioned to believe that not allowing this involvement equates to rebellion – which this system most certainly does teach them, whether in spoken or unspoken terms. Your involvement becomes a bounded choice for the child.
The bible doesn’t give you this right of involvement, so my question would be…If your child didn’t want your involvement, would you consider it rebellion, sinful, et cetera? and…(second question)would there be a corresponding emotional punishment, child treated as a prodigal, estranged, et cetera? I suppose the succinct question is, would you feel the child out of God’s will?
“The bible doesn’t give you this right of involvement,”…
The Bible says to “give your daughters to husbands and take wives for your sons” and even our current marriage vows reflect a remnant of this understanding (“Who gives this woman”). That’s pretty heavy parental involvement-heavier than we personally define our limitations.
You’re also wrong about there being ONE definition of courtship. I’ve seen it practiced differently in every family, with completely different levels of involvement and practices. I’ve seen some practices cause problems, and I’ve seen many bear beautiful fruit. You can’t strike at the word itself.
We have two different world-views so it’s futile to discuss this. It would require an unraveling of how we believe about authority, roles, and a whole host of other things. I’ve studied “anti-fundamentalists” long enough to know it’s a convoluted, confused world-view and debating it is useless. I understand the heart behind “exposing danger” which can be present in any family in any religion under any system. But when Scripture is dodged, explained away or reinterpreted to fit a stance, no amount of discussion is fruitful.
(The courtship tag is there because the word is the only word that defines the alternative to modern dating at this point. That’s what people use when they’re searching. It’s a blog tool and your mentioning it is another example of your searching and reaching to trip me.)
“The courtship tag is there because the word is the only word that defines the alternative to modern dating at this point. That’s what people use when they’re searching. It’s a blog tool and your mentioning it is another example of your searching and reaching to trip me.”
I referenced the dating/courtship tag in my original post. Apparently it went unnoticed. If courtship is the only word that defines the alternative to modern dating, I really don’t understand the disagreement with my earlier posts.
Lewis, as I consider the construct for parental authority: if God is our ultimate parent/author(ity), then we’re forever under His care. Even non-believers are subject to His authority.
Another situation would be the authority of earthly parents – as parents, we’re to follow God’s example. Sadly, many never fully assume their intended roles. Others abuse their authority and reap the consequences of that behavior. Provoking children is not productive. That’s Biblical. Mostly, though, parents strive to do right by their children, following God’s example. We do not abandon our children at an arbitrarily assigned age, nor do we seek to inhibit their gifts or callings according to our own weaknesses, nor do we dismiss the prodigal out of hand. Most recognize that while the legal age of majority in our culture is 18, many “adult” children remain under their parents authority because of financial agreements (free rent) and educational goals (parents paying for college, etc) and yes, even courtship scenarios where a parents wisdom is valued.
You claim to have “no world view”, yet you refer to cultural scenarios (such as the age of 12 for girls to be married in OT times). I don’t expect that you think that particular cultural practice to be the norm, now, which means you do have a world- view -we all, who live in the world, have one.
“Once children, mine or those of anyone else, become adults, they’re responsible for their own decisions.” That’s yours, I gather. That’s fine, but it’s most definitely a “world view”, particularly since the age of adulthood varies according to societal preference and need (as in need an army? the age to join up goes way.down.) I don’t find the magical “18” in the Bible. There’s a default to the Book of _______(Lewis, in this case), the extra-Biblical texts we all carry around.
You also do not hesitate to accuse and attempt to correct the wife of another man – someone outside of your authority – while arguing that lack of authority is the ultimate problem with what you understand of courtship:
“Well, meddling IS sinful and evil…so I guess it just depends on where courtship involving parental oversight for grown children falls into that scenario as you measure meddling.”
“That’s a most definite proof-text from Jeremiah that doesn’t begin to relate to anything we’re discussing.”
Be well,Lewis. I hope that you’re not bearing a cross of bitterness – that one is huge,and next to impossible to hide.
Lewis and Cottage-
The Bible names the age of 20 as the age of accountability. Staying under a parent’s roof and respecting household rules is not the same as obeying the parent in general like a child.
Really? Where is that found in the Bible? I’ve never read that before, that I can remember….
I did a little studying and found some verses in the OT that I think are what you are referring to here. (Ex 30:11-16, Num 14:29)
I think I see what you are saying.
Thanks for the heads up.
No problem, Amy. I got the heads-up from Debi and Michael Pearl.
Yes, there is an age of accountability! 20 sounds about right, doesn’t it, in our cultural context? If only, we have a lot of late bloomers these days! My point was more to autonomy. They don’t necessarily occur at the same time. Hence the question of authority. I don’t know about you, but when I accepted money from my parents (for school, help buying a car, etc) I accepted with that their authority in the matter. I was not autonomous.
That does include household rules, etc., but it’s not limited to that. At least not at our house :). Does that mean I think a parent has the right to insist that an adult child participate in courtship – no. Do I think a parent has the right to restrict the relationships of a dependent child, regardless of age? Yes, absolutely. As long as they are a member of that household, they are to uphold and maintain the standards set forth by the governing authority (within Biblical reason, of course, I’m not talking about a family of bank robbers or anything) of that home. If serial dating is out of bounds, and they can’t live with that, then they might consider supporting themselves – being accountable AND autonomous, and the putting away of childish things, affords that.
Obviously it’s not a cultural thing, not now or then, but God’s definition of autonomy and accountability.
Jennifer – accountability is entirely different than autonomy. I consider my children old enough to be accountable for some things – they are not competent to be autonomous. One who cannot support himself is not autonomous, yet he is still accountable. I mentioned the cultural aspect because so few people of twenty are autonomous – whether or not they’re held accountable in that matter might determine when they get there :).
I guess that’s true, Cottage. For me, though, I think the almost unconscious conviction has been regarding a young adult’s right to be mentally, emotionally, and especially spiritually autonomous, more than anything else.
Very well said…thank you. The whole “parents don’t really have authority” notion so prevalent among the new “movement” of anti-fundamentalist/patriarchy-what-have-you-terms-mean-nothing-now-because-they’ve-been-so-ill-defined drives me crazy to the point that I almost refrain from debate to keep my dander calm 😉
What’s with these dumb comments jumping around? I’m pretty WW’s was supposed to be under Cottage;s, while my last one was meant to be after everyone else’s! Instead it jumped up over one of Cottage’s older ones as though it had soles of rubber. Geesh! This comment will probably spring up into the rafters too, even though it’s supposed to be at the bottom.
“But when Scripture is dodged, explained away or reinterpreted to fit a stance, no amount of discussion is fruitful.”
Amen.
But be encouraged. God’s word NEVER EVER EVER returns void.
“Courtship can mean 1000 things to 1000 people, so let’s not villainize a word we can’t even define.”
I don’t think there’s a lot of confusion about what courtship means, at least not in practice, and not among my readers.
We know nothing of the context of Proverbs 31 in relation to the age and reign of the king, so unless you also sign off on her advice to let the weary drink themselves out of their misery, it’s probably not the best scripture on which to plant a flag.
And Kelly…If you don’t advocate courtship as the solution to the issues in your post, and your post doesn’t espouse courtship, you may want to change it’s tag.
We have not followed a strict courtship model. Our oldest is 23 and has been married for over a year now to the most wonderful young man we could ever have imagined. We talked a great deal for years about the qualities she should pray for in a husband. We prayed from before she was born. She came to the place of brokenness where she laid her future on the altar before the Lord. She told Him she would be single all her life or she would wait for Him to bring the man He had chosen for her. It was not easy. And it was tempting to take back her offer. But, the Lord honored her desire to walk in complete submission and literally dropped this young man in her lap! She heard someone mention his name before she ever met him, and she felt her spirit leap inside her. A mutual friend introduced them. This precious young man, of his own accord, came to my husband and asked his blessing for them to pursue a relationship. We didn’t force it. The character of the young man and our daughter directed, even demanded the process. He came to our house regularly and they also spent time together away from our home. But it was because they believed the Lord was moving them toward marriage. Not to just date. This young man came back to my husband several months later and asked for our daughter’s hand in marriage. He received our full blessing. And our second daughter is following the same path. By her choosing. One down, 6 more children to go!!! And I face it without fear because I have seen His Provision beyond my wildest dreams. So my testimony to young women out there is this: If you will lay your future on the altar before the Lord, He will bless you in ways you can’t even imagine.
“This precious young man, of his own accord, came to my husband and asked his blessing for them to pursue a relationship. We didn’t force it. The character of the young man and our daughter directed, even demanded the process.”
I’m glad this worked out for you, but I have to say, what you’re describing here is entirely cultural. Not spiritual and not biblical. May I ask what your response to the young man would’ve been had he not been of a mind to approach you?
This was absolutely spiritual. The Lord directed every step and so He receives all the Glory. Hypothetical scenarios serve no purpose when we are seeking to allow the Lord to direct every step. You are missing the entire point that when we surrender everything, including the issue of choosing a husband or wife, to the Lord, we don’t have to “reason” things out. We sit quietly before Him and wait. Our involvement is seeking His Will through prayer. And this was not AT ALL “cultural”. It was so foreign to anything our culture would dictate, that that statement truly is laughable. And I really do NOT mean that in a rude or disrespectful way. Our culture says, “Go out and find your mate. Try out several different models and see which one fits you best. And then, when you get tired of it, trade it in on the new and improved model.” That’s our culture’s plan. That’s why our families are unable to stand under pressure or to produce the fruit in the quantities the Lord intends. Fruit that causes our culture to move more and more toward holiness instead of complete implosion.
Hey Amy! What an interesting post. But…I hope to hear comments from women who think they could “actually” live the rest of their lives alone after a divorce. It sounds like we are hearing from happy and content marriages. I’m not in any way saying that your marriage and all other readers are perfect. Well, I just don’t see any empathy hear. We all just can’t imagine what goes on behind closed doors.
I know what the scriptures say…but I refuse to believe our sweet Lord will find fault in women or men who end a marriage because of abuse. But I know the “abuse thing” might be another interesting post for later.
Amy, I know you are following scripture. But…what would YOU do? What would any of you do if you were in a situation like that? It is so easy to quote scripture and it is also easy to say what we “won’t” do until it happens to us. So I have to ask again. What would YOU do? If you have tried everything and done EVERYTHING that should be done…would you stay unhappy for a decade.
And yes it is possible to live happy “alone” in God’s grace. But, should you because you’re afraid of what God thinks? Just wondering.
Hi Angie!
You said, “I know what the scriptures say…BUT I refuse to believe our sweet Lord will find fault in women or men who end a marriage because of abuse.” (emphasis mine.)
That is the problem. The BUT. We need to determine what God’s word says, and do it. Period. No Buts! That’s what gets us into trouble. God is going to stand by His word. Always. If we are in violation of it, He WILL find fault with us.
The bottom line is we have to put our emotions aside when we search for truth. His word is truth. We need to find out exactly what it says and leave it at that- not explain it away or excuse it.
I am sorry you do not feel I am empathetic. You don’t know me personally so I find that an outrageous claim. Sometimes we can not squeeze all the love and tenderness and grace we would like to in our words when we are writing. I am not trying to make light of anyone’s feelings or experiences, I am only trying to point out what God’s word says. That alone is my source.
My experiences do not validate or make void TRUTH. Neither do yours, or anyone else’s. I was hesitant to bring my personal experince into the situation at all, as I think it just heoghtens emotion and can bring confusion to the real issue at hand- what the Bible says.
If nothing else, that is what I want us to look at.
Blessings to you.
And in response to your last question, “And yes it is possible to live happy “alone” in God’s grace. But, should you because you’re afraid of what God thinks?”
I’d have to say, yes. Yes. Yes, we should do what God wants. Yes, we should be concerned with what He says, what He thinks. That’s what being a Christian is all about! Pleasing Him!
True peace and joy come from Him, and we know Him by abiding in Him, in His word, by obeying Him. He is not a cruel taskmaster. He will fill all the holes in our hearts, if we will let Him.
Grace and peace to you, sister!
You know, the more I think about this, the more I approach this with fear and trembling. Because how many times have I been in this situation?? I know what the Bible says about my spending habits, the way I treat my husband, children, the way I use my time, etc, etc, ad infinitum. BUT!!!! I have been disobedient- sinned against His light. And all I can say is, this is so, so wrong and dangerous! Yes, God is a God of grace, but we are accountable for our actions. We will reap what we sow.
I am challenged afresh to be obedient to whatever God says in His word.
So thank you for your question.
Love,
a
Now THAT was a beautiful testimony of how God give beauty for ashes. Thank you for sharing, sweet sister, and God bless you! You and your husband have my prayers. xo
Thank God your husband became a rare and miraculous case. You did everything right.
My husband and I just discussed this last week – how dating and remarriage is akin to polygomy. We came to the same conclusions that you have Kelly. Dating fosters an “if I’m not happy then I’ll just end the relationship” mentality that only continues once married. I cannot tell you the countless men that my husband has spoken with who were considering a divorce for that very reason – I’m just not happy. They always convince themselves that God wants them to be happy so they need a divorce. This is making God over in our own image. Some have come to realize that their actions had devestating consequences on their children, their new spouses, their old spouses, etc. but some never equate the consequences of their choice on the problems in their lives.
For believers, we should hold up what the Bible says about marriage and about God, no matter what is popular or politically correct.
Amen! Well said.
@Lewis,
I read you blog, and I often agree with what you have to say, though not always 100%. Who agrees with anyone all the time anyway, lol?
But in this instance, I think Kelly is right. Even a non-believer who thinks critically about the dating scene can see that it is not a practical way to prepare for marriage. Courtship was never mentioned in the post, and it’s not something I and my husband have never considered seriously because we believe adult children are just that, adults, ultimately accountable to God after we’ve done our job parenting to the best of our ability.
Surely you can appreciate that the serial monogamy that characterizes the dating scene hinders one’s prospect for a healthy monogamous, lifetime commitment of marriage?
Terry…If you’re referring only to the dating practices of those who don’t have personal relationships with Christ, I really don’t have an argument with what you’re saying.
If the reference is to people in intimate relationship with Christ, then it’s not accurate at all.
“Courtship was never mentioned in the post…”
The word wasn’t typed, wasn’t formed, and isn’t discernible on the surface, but it was mentioned, loudly, in it’s own way.
Seriously, Lewis, whatever your problems with patriarchy, to insist that Kelly was saying something that she clearly did not say is wrong. What do you mean, “it wasn’t typed… but was mentioned loudly, in its own way”? Either she said it or she didn’t.
You make it sound like courtship is evil and sinful! Just because you (or I) may not adhere to it as the only way to choose a mate doesn’t make it wrong for those who choose it.
You need to be careful not to attack any and everyone who may have a different standards than you on particular issues. There is nothing theologically wrong with choosing courtship. And I do think that even for the committed Christian, one should be cautious with respect to serial dating. Of course, the believer is to walk circumspectly in all of their dealings.
Well, meddling IS sinful and evil…so I guess it just depends on where courtship involving parental oversight for grown children falls into that scenario as you measure meddling.
So you think Kelly suggests another formula other than courtship to counter the problems she stresses in her post?
Voddie Baucham tells it like it is. Dating is “glorified divorce practice”.
Our church just put out a really great statement on divorce. I thought they handled it pretty well, considering it is a large church and probably has some membership that has been divorced for unbiblical reasons.
Find it here:
http://www.brookhills.org/divorce.html
Am I the first to mention that while the “evils” of divorce are noted a few times in the Bible, God never forbids polygamy? On the contrary, He made laws and provisions for polygamy in the OT, and never forbade it under the New Covenant. As far as I can tell, only two people were not supposed to collect many wives: kings and elders. So I think the original analogy is faulty. For people who are so set on following scriptural commands literally, without picking and choosing, I’m surprised that this hasn’t been noted yet.
I actually disagree that God never forbids it. I think it’s forbidden through the positive instruction: “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”
And that stands throughout the NT as well since Jesus refers back to it.
Darcy, please. Polygamy is a wicked rot to God’s children and wrecks the best of people. God allowed it for a while, this doesn’t mean He approved of it. You may wish to look into Ann Eliza Young’s book “The 19th Wife”, written in the 1800’s to chronicle her own nightmarish experience. Plus, just look at the Bible: polgyamy generally created disaster. The wives of Abraham, Jacob, and David were shown to be greatly unahppy and unfulfilled several times, and Solomon’s led him astray.
I didn’t say that *I* approve of it or even think it’s a good idea. But the fact is, God did allow it, just like He allowed divorce. And the argument that “God allowed it, but didn’t approve of it” could be applied to many things. If the original command to “leave and cleave” was God forbidding polygamy, then why did He let His people, His chosen holy people, continue in it, even making laws that provided for it? If it really is a disgusting, “wicked rot” then why didn’t God say so? The fact is that all through my studies of the Old Law and the New Covenant, I cannot find anywhere that God even says it displeases Him. He tells the OT kings that they are not to have more than one wife, and the qualifications of elders in 1 Tim. say that they should only have one wife. But that’s the only instruction I see anywhere.
I guess I bring this up to prove a point. All through these comments I see people saying “I don’t care what’s fair, I only care what the scriptures say” and then demonstrating that they don’t really know what the scriptures say regarding polygamy, only what their opinions are on the matter. *I* personally don’t like it and think it’s a terrible practice that hurts many people, but apparently in this discussion, the only thing that matters is “what the scriptures clearly state”, and nothing else…not justice, not mercy, not the hearts of God’s children, not the effects of divorce, just “what the scriptures state”. Well…be consistent. What do the scriptures “clearly say” about polygamy? Not what do you think is good, bad, unfair, or hurtful…just what the scriptures state on the matter. Perhaps, then, you’ll see that the issue of dating and divorce isn’t as “clearly stated” as some here seem to think.
For I hate divorce,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the LORD of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”
Mal. 2:16
I’d say that is a pretty clean indication of what God thinks about divorce. Anything else?
“If it really is a disgusting, “wicked rot” then why didn’t God say so?”
Perhaps He let matters speak for themselves. He may have allowed it for a time, for the sake of reproduction, but it was not His design.
“apparently in this discussion, the only thing that matters is “what the scriptures clearly state”, and nothing else…not justice, not mercy, not the hearts of God’s children, not the effects of divorce, just “what the scriptures state””
Some people still don’t understand that if something that’s supposed to be Biblical makes people consistently miserable, consistently unhappy, another look at the Scriptures is necessary, as are study, context, what was going on at the time, etc. No matter WHAT, we’ll be looking at the Bible through eyes of flesh, so if anything this makes deeper study and a possible different perspective all the more necessary.
What I am having trouble with, Jennifer, is it sounds like you are saying that if my understanding of Scripture doesn’t make me happy, I should go back to Scripture and assume I had interpreted it incorrectly. I believe instead that if I am unhappy, I had better go back to Scripture and see where I have failed to line up with it. The source of my problem is my sinful will, not His principles.
I understand totally, Ant. I think it depends on whether it’s challenging (which doesn’t give us a reason to contradict it) and whether the certain following of a passage actually produces good fruit; I’ve seen bad fruit in the attempt of some to stay in bad unions. The other time I might look farther into a passage is when it seems to contradict the rest of the Bible, or God’s nature according to the Bible. One instance in which a re-interpretation is clearly false is in the case of homosexuals. God says gay sex is wrong; HE says this, not a temporary law in the Bible, and He NEVER contradicts Himself or changes His mind later on in Scripture. Plus, we have His clear natural design to testify to this, so I see the falseness right away when people try to erase this by giving those passages another meaning.
Ah yes, I’m getting it now, Darcy. That’s an excellent point.
Darcy,
Unless you’re debating based on the fact that the exact words “I forbid polygamy” are not found in Scripture, I still think you’re wrong to say it isn’t forbidden by God. It’s forbidden by the default commands.
God can’t say, “If a woman marries while her husband is still alive she commits adultery” and not be necessarily forbidding polygamy. Every command/instruction on marriage points to the forbidding of polygamy. It doesn’t have to be stated outright.
She didn’t say she agrees with polygamy. She noted, correctly, that the scriptures only literally and directly forbid polygamy in a couple of instances.
Dating. Very scary. I was never scared to climb on a plane and come to a new country but dating scared me and I was not a teenager. How do you know who to trust? Both men and women. There are no expectations whatsoever of marriage and I have seen so many women and men go through relationship after relationship, break up and so on which was so sad to watch.
I was tempted by dating because it was flattering to asked out by a guy and it was ‘only for a movie or coffee’. But I had to remember once I went down that path where would it stop. Would it be ‘just a kiss’. So I never did. Instead I chose to have an arranged marriage. Apparently if you go to college and chose not to date and have an arranged marriage, most people think you are either stupid or forced. No one forced me. If anything, people dating and the heartache they underwent made me firm in my decision not to date andgo for an arranged marriage which my entire family, parents and grandparents had an input.
A marriage is not easy. It takes enormous work. But I only have to look at the legacy of my parents and granparents to see strong marriages which is the best gift a child could grow up with.
On the other hand, abuse is there in marriages. Disagreements are different than abuse. Verbal, emotional, physical and other vile things do happen in christian homes too. Sometimes people confuse submission and abuse. God does not ask us to abdicate our brains as women when we submit to a man. Submitting a Godly man is different from submitting to an abuser. And most of us know what abuse is. Especially when there are children involved unfortunately even in America and some christians seem to advocate a ‘sweet spirit’ will turn abusers. I do not think God condones tha. Is divorce applicable in that situation? When it is so unsafe for both children and women. I sure hope so.
Some churches blindly counsel divorce or some reconciliation irrespective of the situation. Hopefully we get more churches and families involved such that divorce and abuse are less.
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalm 112:1
Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
“Afraid of what God thinks” – only a fool is not afraid of what God thinks. He is the Judge and Jury, He will cast our soul into hell, eternal separation from Himself, without Jesus Christ none of us stands a chance. As a Christian why would anyone not be afraid of displeasing God? Many of us will get there through fire: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ” (1 Cor. 3:15)
Yes, we should be afraid of what God thinks about what we do or don’t do. Even the mere act of not speaking up regarding Israel’s sin was enough to condemn one prophet. I’m sure there are many ladies on today’s blog who have been married more than once, some are married to men who have been married more than once – THAT does not make them sympathetic with no-fault divorce / remarriage. There is a reason why the aged are considered wise – they know more than the young ones. I’m speaking of mature Christians who take the meat of the word and no longer require the milk of the word. One does not have to enter the pit in order to know that sin is wrong all one must do is read scripture and apply it to ones life. Short of that, find a mature Christian and listen to what they have to say and then weigh that in light of Scripture ( gotta add that because of all the nut-burgers out there using their own questionable intelligence as a measuring line).
Quite frankly, a thorough reading of scripture will lead one to the understanding that our Father is not interested in our happiness. If He were, some would be happy living in sin for the rest of their lives and then getting a free invite into heaven. Our Father IS interested in our obedience. We, Christians, are to emulate Jesus Christ. He was obedient unto death. The question has been posed about living alone the rest of your life … the answer should always be – I’ll do whatever my Father wants me to do – I will be obedient. We all know we have forgiveness through Jesus Christ but that doesn’t give us permission to live all willy-nilly. Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do the things I say?” Luke 6:46
Wise words.
Mnay wise older ones have gone through divorce. God’s not interested in petty happiness, but He does care for us to be healthy and joyful in obedience and living in health, spiritual and mental.
In obedience. Exactly. 🙂
That’s where the true joy comes from.
Women are told not to seperate from their husbands, but if they do, to remain single or reconcile. That’s what it says!
If there is abuse, or as you call it, a “dead marriage” (who decides it is dead, unholy, etc.?) then the woman should remain single. It is remarriage that is the issue here.
You said in one of your earlier posts that it is not simple. I disagree. Certainly, living out what the Bible teaches is not EASY, but it is fairly simple.
“If there is abuse, or as you call it, a “dead marriage” (who decides it is dead, unholy, etc.?)”
If the husband molests the kids, it’s DEAD. If he beats and rapes his wife, it’s dead. And a divorced woman owes no loyalty to him, not flesh nor heart. If a woman tricked a man into marrying her (Jacob and Leah, or a modern version) or married for his money, it was never real to begin with. Maybe we shouldn’r carp about what we deserve, but we DO deserve better than an evil spouse to share our bodies with, don’t you think? Yes, that’s simple enough. I think you and I should agree to leave this now, Amy.
Was it Leah that tricked Jacob or Laban?
I was just unsure as to what the terms you used meant.
Of course, I disagree. Leah and Jacob obviously had a valid marriage, and Jesus Christ was a direct descendant from Leah.
I certainly think steps must be taken in order to protect the children and the women in the horrific examples you described. I am not a monster.
I just don’t think this has anything to do with remarriage. The Bible says nothing about that.
I think you may be right and we chould just drop it.
Just briefly, it has to do with remarriage because a union born in deceit would not be valid.
Grace, I don’t think it matters. The point is, he took his vows to Leah, not Rachel. Due to the times, the practice of polygamy made this okay and he was able to marry Rachel and still keep the soon-pregnant Leah protected in his house. Nowadays, it’d be different.
The only thing I have tried to do, in all these discussions we’ve had all day, is to get you to drop opinion and biblically back your claims. You have not done that. You continue to bring up scenarios in which you think the Bible does not/should not apply. All the examples you used are emotionally charged or abusive. I do not deny there are serious problems that need honest answers. All I have asked is you STICK TO THE BIBLE instead of forcing your opinions and commentaries.
I am willing to drop it if you are. This would mean you stop writing about how everything I say is wrong, and the Bible does not apply to today. You have gotten increasingly combatitive; I’m not sure why you can’t respect an honest plea for biblical evidence to back up biblical claims.
I wish to keep this in the Spirit of Christ. I am trying to only speak His truth. I am asking you to do the same, or drop it.
Either way.
Respectfully, In CHrist,
~a
I read the Scripture differently than you do. If you don’t see referencing a study of the Scriptures as offering evidence, I can’t help you anyway.
Yes, they have and I’d be willing to bet that every single one of them would say it’s not worth the heartache. There is nothing scriptural that indicates that our Father can’t use even the most horrible of sinners. Paul persecuted the church and approved of the stoning of Stephen. However, our goal should be to finish the race and yet maintain a life that honors Jesus Christ. How horrible to make the Savoir ashamed of us and grieve the Holy Spirit.
If He wants us to be healthy then why did He leave the “thorn” in Paul? He will use whatever means it takes to glorify Himself – even our pain. I’ve often thought that the song, “I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden” fit the Christian life very well. God’s purpose is not our health, wealth and fame. He chose the poor, uneducated and unfit ( physically )to build His church not the wealthy, educated & beautiful people of the day. Scripture does not indicate that He intends for us to suffer, great blessings go along with obedience and faith:
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” Heb. 11:6
I believe one of those blessings is health and healing. A little bit of faith goes a long way.
There has been no condemnation of the divorced on this site but instead there has been a candid dicussion of Biblical mandate regarding divorce. We must remember that all of us has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Just because you divorce doesn’t mean that you can’t simply come to the conclusion that God hates divorce. No one here is condemning you. God hates divorce, we should hate it too. God hates lies, we should too. Yet, most of us lie at one time or another. Unfortunately, divorce has become as common as lies within the church because we look more like the world than the body of Christ.
I’m rambling, aren’t I? 🙂 I’m not putting this to you Jennifer, just rambling apparently. I think I’ll stop before I get into trouble. Much love and blessings, sister.
“If He wants us to be healthy then why did He leave the “thorn” in Paul?”
That’s only one circumstance, and I believe it was a physical thing; those of the spirit are worse. None have condemned the divorced, but forbidding them remarriage is a life-sentence. Blessings to you too, sis 🙂
Jennifer, I empathize with you. I have experienced the attacks you are talking about. I have felt so much despair and horror at life, that it seemed impossible that God could bring about the smalled iota of joy in my life.
I have looked around and thought, surely God doesn’t want this for me? I am so spiritually, mentally, and even physically unhealthy because of my situation that the only sane thing to do is get out of it. Not for petty happiness sake, (although that’s nice), but merely so I don’t dive off the deep end. I decided to obey and endure, not just once, but repeatedly. Sometimes, I came very close to NOT, so it wasn’t easy.
“Do not be decieved Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy’s will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.” from the ‘Screwtape Letters’ by C.S. Lewis.
Love the Lewis quote. Good stuff. Reminds me of Job.
Sara, Jesus knows! Everytime you choose to obey HIM you are gaining heavenly rewards. You have my sympathy and admiration. Your faith is stronger than mine. If the time comes that Jesus says, “GO!”. You’ll know that it’s time. HE is faithful and He loves you so very much. He knows when we are persecuted for His sake. He is paying attention and judgment time will come or perhaps repentance on the part of your spouse. Perhaps that is what Cor. is talking about in part.
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Heb. 13:5
“be content with such things as ye have” I wonder if that would pertain to marriage – bad or good, healthy or unhealthy, deal or alive?
Blessings Sara, keep up the good fight!
““be content with such things as ye have” I wonder if that would pertain to marriage – bad or good, healthy or unhealthy, deal or alive?”
You could apply that same argument to somebody with a crumbling house or a deadly cancer; should they be content and not bother fixing things?
(This is for Antbed, I’m posting it down here again since it got tangled in confusing post-placement above, in case she doesn’t catch it up there).
Thank you for your wonderfully kind words, Antbed (I hope you see this, there’s no “reply” button beneath your post, so I had to post it under Amy’s). I do know, in general, that we are Joyful. And I am too God’s done AMAZING things for me and I trust Him completely; I just meant feeling joyful doesn’t happen in every moment. And some make themselves unhappy by a condition that’s not good for their soul, thinking they’re being obedient to Christ. Christians can be so confused and imbalanced here. In any case, thank you for sharing your confidence and joy in Him It’s a boost.
🙂
“I am so spiritually, mentally, and even physically unhealthy because of my situation that the only sane thing to do is get out of it. Not for petty happiness sake, (although that’s nice), but merely so I don’t dive off the deep end”
There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes that’s what we HAVE to do; we don’t owe a spouse our self-destruction. Just so you know, my suffering had nothing to do with marriage.
Thanks for your kind words.
I don’t think God punishes or looks down on those who succumb during those times.
I don’t think God would have loved me any less had I just lost it. In fact I remember during one particularily low valley, I had almost given up. I was determined to do what I knew and felt was wrong, in order to just…I don’t know, it just gets so bad you feel you just have to DO something. The only message from God I got during that dry time was “I’ll love you anyway.”
My point is, I didn’t actually have to DO anything. God was just asking me to endure. I didn’t need to work myself up into a state of false joy, I didn’t need to figure out solutions, I didn’t need to change myself so everything would get better, and I didn’t need to opt out of the situation. I only knew what was right, and nothing else, literally, and I had to do that thing. I had to just sit there and take it. Every temptation has an escape. God doesn’t make anything so unbearable that we HAVE to disobey. It may feel like it, and boy howdy do I understand that. But it’s a lie from Satan.
There is peace in obedience. Joy may come immediately, much later, or never, but “it is well with my soul”. And sometimes that’s all you get, and sometimes that HAS to be enough.
Those are great words, Sara. The difference between us may be that I don’t think a divorce from a doomed union IS disobedience to God.
Why would you say doomed? What if her sticking it out and staying out of obedience to Christ is what gets through to him and he is saved because of it. What if she leaves 1 day too soon and he never finds Christ. Isn’t that letting her light shine before men?
She is trying to obey Christ, she doesn’t feel led to leave. She knows she’ll be loved either way. BUT she is doing her best to honor Christ with her life.
Some marriages are doomed Elisabeth, or become so. You’re one of the fortunate ones.
I think there is a flaw in your logic to say with certainty that “some marriages are doomed”. Unless perhaps YOU are a calvinist and believe some things are doomed from the outset (and I know you aren’t 🙂
We would never say to a Christian “congratulations, I guess you are one of the fortunate ones who isn’t doomed, who wasn’t UN-saveable.
But that is, in effect, what you just said about Elisabeth’s marriage.
For all you or I know, it *was* doomed, as many others might have or currently be (not to say they aren’t redeemable, but practically, from the world’s standards-doomed).
To say that because it didn’t end means it wasn’t so bad to begin with, is not right. For those who really do feel as if their marriage is dead and miserable but haven’t ended it yet, it would heap confusion and perhaps guilt on their head (if I haven’t ended it…it must not be *that* bad), AND it diminishes God’s miracle when He chooses to resurrect a dead marriage. Which is the far greater problem I see.
How many that were there at Lazurus’s resurrection might’ve been saying to themselves “Well…I guess he wasn’t *that* dead to begin with.”
Our God is in the business of reconciling things ripped apart, of healing things that are broken, and yes, resurrecting things that are dead. No matter how broken or how dead.
Sara, I never said Elisabeth’s marriage was dead, nor that “it wasn’t that bad to begin with”. But trust me: when a union becomes a corpse, it’s painfully clear and very severe; it’s not a “hmm?” situation. Staying bound won’t be an act of holiness. And I wouldn’t mind heaping guilt and confusion on the head of a woman who stayed in a dangerous situation with her children.
I think the difference between us may be that I don’t think a marriage union is ever absolutely doomed.
If God can redeem this entire fallen world, including the murderers, the pedophiles, the sex traffickers, (and I’ll lump myself right in there with them, because I was once lost in sin) and all the other things that keep me up at night and make my heart sick, then he can redeem *anything*, and nothing is safe! 🙂
AMEN! What a MIGHTY GOD we serve.
I doubt you’re in a marriage that involves sex trafficking or pedophilia, Sara. But if so, God help you if you stay.
And btw, it’s not what God CAN’T do, it’s what man WON’T. Pedos and beaters are unlikely to change.
NO! Not at all. In fact, I’ve never explicitly said that my struggle was with my marriage. I was simply making the point that I am a sinner, like anyone else, and God can redeem what seems impossible to us.
It’s misleading to let someone believe that their marriage is irredemable. It’s absolutely wrong to fortify that belief in someone, nothing is impossible with God.
We should not pursue suffering, but as Christians we should not avoid it if it comes our way. Marriage is difficult and of course there will be a lot of suffering in it, for most people.
You keep talking about how unfair it would be of God to expect us to suffer in a dead marriage. You even said monstrous at one point.
The fact is, that God does expect us to endure monstrous suffering if HE has allowed it into our lives. I can’t think of anything more horrific that what God allowed to happen to Job. Actually, I can…what happened to His Son.
Everyday Christians are beaten, persecuted, killed in God’s name, and he allows it. Everyday, women and men suffer in marriages that seem hopeless and he allows it. He redeems suffering, He allows it for His glory.
As I said, we should not pursue it, and we certainly shouldn’t allow ourselves or our children to beaten or abused. Some marriages will need separation for safety.
I’m just saying, that suffering doesn’t exempt us from the command to obey, to take up our cross and follow Jesus. Suffering is not an excuse to do what you KNOW is wrong. Staying in some marriages *may* be wrong, but we *KNOW* that divorce is wrong because Scripture says so. The person considering it, needs to understand that and take it very seriously, not only for their own sake, but for the sake of God’s testimony in this world.
Sara, a marriage shouldn’t be compared to crucifiction or losing your children and being afflicted with leprosy. It will naturally have struggle, but it wasn’t BUILT for suffering. I think you’re still missing the point, and what makes you think God brought the suffering of a horrible marriage to you, or anyone? If your husband’s abusing the kids, no one should HAVE to tell you that it’s irredemable.
“It’s absolutely wrong to fortify that belief in someone, nothing is impossible with God”
Some things don’t get better; period. It’s irresponsible to stay in such a union based on the far-off dream that it might get better.
“As I said, we should not pursue it, and we certainly shouldn’t allow ourselves or our children to beaten or abused. Some marriages will need separation for safety”
Ok, please disregard my comments on that issue.
Divorce is always something negative; or, perhaps more aptly, the death of a marriage is. But that doesn’t mean the separation is always WRONG.
“The person considering it, needs to understand that and take it very seriously, not only for their own sake, but for the sake of God’s testimony in this world”
People have told me that staying in a bad situation for holy’s sake is disgusting to them, making out faith look like a form of self-punishment and masochism.
““We should not pursue suffering, but as Christians we should not avoid it if it comes our way””
I think it depends where the suffering’s coming from. If you’re a Calvinist and believe God sends all suffering, that’s another point we differ on.
I’m not a five point Calvinist. Maybe three 😉 But it’s obvious God allows suffering. Satan’s like “let me ruin Job’s life and take away everything he loves, I bet he’ll curse you.” and God’s like, “let’s see.” It may seem monstrous, but He allows suffering. He doesn’t send it, but he doesn’t always stop it. So either you have to accept he allows it or he’s powerless to stop it.
I used to feel the same way as your friend. But I think there is a vast difference between self flaggelation and accepting a bitter cup.
“We should not pursue suffering, but as Christians we should not avoid it if it comes our way.”
Powerful statement Sara. There is so much truth in your comments; I am so glad I took the time to wade through all of these.
I should clarify that I meant staying in some marriage MAY not be advisable, but that we know divorce is wrong.
Jennifer! I totally understand where you’re coming from! Entropy is the natural state of things because of the fall. Things don’t get better on their own. But I feel like you are diminishing God’s power to say that even HE can’t help somethings (or maybe just implying it).
Also, whlie marriage isn’t meant for suffering, neither was this world God created. It was meant for pleasure, joy, bliss, etc. Everything has been affected by the fall. While we can fully expect some wonderful blessings from marriage, because we are a sinner and our spouse is a sinner, even the most perfect of marriages will have some suffering and hard times. Some will have a harder time than others.
Your words are very true Sara, and you always put a lot of thought into them. I don’t want you to think I see marriage lightly; I’ve just heard of some horrific things, that go beyond bad. I am an Arminian, and as such I don’t believe that God WILL change a person if they’re not willing.
I agree, I don’t think God will force anyone to change who doesn’t want to. But I do think anyone is *capable* of accepting the Holy Spirit’s invitation (salvation and/or life changes), no matter what they’ve done or how ingrained bad habits are.
Don’t worry! I don’t think you take marriage lightly. I’m just so pleased that this entire conversation (everyone included) has been much more civil than the one a few days ago. I wouldn’t be ashamed to have any non-believer read all the exchanges here today.
It’s been a pleasure speaking to you, and I agree about the conversation. I always think if I’m going to hijack Kelly’s post, I should at least be civil about it 😛 God bless!
about remarriage, has anyone posted this scripture? I read through the replies and I have not seen it.
1Corinthians 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?”
As for dating, I agree with Kelly, people who are not ready for marriage, and that means women who do not know yet how to take care of a home and men who cannot provide for a wife, have no business dating. Dating should be for the purpose of finding a spouse soon, to marry.
Wow! I’m tired! 🙂
That’s why I took a nap 🙂
I might have missed it in the tangle of comments, but what exactly is the alternative for the modern dating scene? I personally have experienced and dislike the courtship model and and found dating a great deal better for finding a compatible spouse that I loved. Dating several people wasn’t practice for divorce or polygamy, it was to make sure I didn’t end up like I did with courtship, engaged (or even worse, married) to a person I barely knew and didn’t love. Are people supposed to just pick a person and then marry them despite the fact that they aren’t compatible or in love just so they never experience a break-up? I really don’t quite understand why ending a relationship that isn’t marriage is a horrible thing. I think it would be worse to marry someone you don’t love or like just to avoid the stigma of “giving away pieces of your heart.”
I posted my story above but when I got saved at 21 I decided not to “date” to guard my heart. (My family mambers are not believers so I was not going to have them help me out with choosing!) I prayed a lot and my best friend thought that I should meet a man that was practically a brother to her that she had grown up with and gone to church with ect. So we met casually at a lunch with our friends and then spent time toegther in our mutual church/friend group….We were both able to discern that we wanted to marry eachother WITHOUT “dating” and have been happily married almot 8 years. We were able to know eachother well because we would talk a lot while we were at BBQs, church, and the like. I also got to see him act “natural” around people and not be totally clouded by romantic feelings of a dating relationship..though I always have been attracted to him 🙂 Our pastor, family and fellow believers supported us marrying so that was another confirmation to our choice.
That is wonderful that it worked for you, but I’m not sure it would work for everyone. The first person I dated was someone I had know since childhood, someone I had seen in all sorts of situations and had all the characteristics that I thought I wanted in a husband. We dated for a year and half because after that we both realized that characteristics that we found endearing in each other as friends really ended up being annoying and grating when it came to being parteners. I don’t think it would have been mirroring Christ’s love to continue on to marriage knowing that we basically couldn’t stand each other as marriage parteners.
My husband and I did the more modern dating scene route. We met in the halls of our college, went out without knowing anything about each other, and did traditional, solo dates with just the intention to get to know each other and see if we were compatable for marriage. We didn’t really hang out with my parents because they were still mad over the fact that I had called off the marriage to the guy they felt God was saying I should marry and then stopped dating a guy they also felt had all the character qualities I should want in a man. After ten years they have finally come around and agree that my husband is absolutely the one for me, despite the fact that he didn’t really measure up the the list of characteristics they were looking for.
I’m not saying dating this way works for everyone, just that it isn’t always this evil thing that lead to polygamy and divorce.
Tina- I think you can get away with dating without “giving away pieces of your heart” I think I did.
I dated, and I was satisfied with the way it ended up. I met someone, they asked me out, we went out on dates that involved ways I could see if he was going to be a good husband/father, and the second I found something that I didn’t like ( a Lazy man who didn’t see work as a priority, obsessed with pornography, disliked children, an angry ill tempered man) then I broke it off. I purposely made sure we were in situations that were going to show his true character. Now that happened rather quickly before anything became serious. I refused to marry a man who was not right with God. And that is not practicing for a divorce, that is called choosing Wisely.
When most people date they have no clue what to look for and how to seek out whether that person is genuine or not because they have no experience. I didn’t start to date until I was ready for marriage, and also not naive. Most 14-20 year olds don’t have that ability so it’s helpful to have parents who can help them. I didn’t have thos kind of parents, but I was older and was able to do it on my own. I think the important thing is to see if the man you are dating is a good man after God’s own heart, Before you fall in love with him and can’t see straight to make a good decision.
Great, thought-provoking post, Kelly! Also, Amy – I completely agree with you. It may not appeal to our emotional side, but Scripture seems clear that men and women should not remarry unless their spouse is dead. While God does allow for divorce on grounds of adultery, I don’t think it is meant that they must divorce. Most couples can be reconciled through redemption and forgiveness. Also, even if you have divorced due to adultery, you still can’t remarry unless you remarry your former spouse. The Scripture seems very clear on this matter. I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where God allows remarriage to anyone else unless one is a widow/widower. What a different society we would live in if God’s laws on marriage were followed. I’m so blessed to have a husband who loves me despite my wretched sinfulness and who is willing to forgive me and build a covenant marriage with me.
If you can’t remarry, Alison, you’re not really divorced.
I’m not really sure what you mean. Even if you choose to get a divorce, you cannot remarry unless you marry your previous spouse again. The Bible is abundantly clear on that. I am confused by how you told Amy that you interpret the Scriptures differently on this point when it is clearly written in an obvious statement. “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman, commits adultery.” I don’t see any other way to interpret that except that if you marry someone other than your first wife – you are an adulterer. It clearly states that if you are divorced, you still commit adultery if you marry someone else. And likewise, “…anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.” That means that even if you were the one who was divorced, you cannot marry someone else. This doesn’t have to mean that we like God’s laws, but they are still His laws, and He is always just, even if we don’t like it. I believe that most wise Christian leaders would counsel believers to not continue to live with a spouse who was physically abusive to you or your children. No one has said that you have to remain in a house with someone who beats, rapes, molests, or any of the other horrible situations that you described. But, while you don’t have to live with that person anymore, you still can’t marry anyone else unless your former spouse dies. I, like Amy, would like to see what verses in the Bible you have to back up your claims. And how you would somehow interpret the above references differently.
Alison, I tire of repeating myself. Please read the article in this link, which clearly mentions such Bible Scriptures and is followed by several interesting comments: http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/2009/05/john-macarthurs-new-book-the-divorce-dilemma/#comments
The comments are made up primarily of people who read the book and agreed with the conclusion that they were free to re-marry.
Some of what was written was good, and biblically backed. Like the fact that Jesus DOES give an exception for DIVORCE- adultery. BUT!!! The scripture in 1 Cor 7:15 is badly perverted, claiming that Paul was saying a woman is not bound, therefore she is free to remarry. Of course, this directly contradicts what he says 5 verses earlier- that if a wife is seperated from her husband she is to remain single or reconcile) AND verse 39 and 40 (that a wife IS BOUND to her husband as long as he lives, but that if he dies, she is free to remarry to a believer.)
Sadly, I feel these authors are in error, using prooftexts to support their theories and completely ignoring other VERY PLAIN passages.
Apparently an abandonment IS an exception, Amy. Separated means separated, probably a trial course, but being abandoned offers no likeliness of change. There’s also the matter of putting a wife away, NOT divorcing her. If you, and if you, Alison, have any further disagreements, please express them on the blog in that link. I’m tired of being pushed to repeat myself and carry this post further down the trail and off the topic.
I’m sorry if I made you feel defensive, Jennifer. I am not trying to push you to respond, please don’t feel you must. You posted a link to be considered, and so I read it. I disagree with the conclusions. It contradicts verses from the very same chapter, and adds to scripture a doctrine that is not there. The comments you suggested should be read were not based on the bible at all, but mainly on personal experiences.
Alison asked you how you could possibly “read” the following scriptures any differently than how they are said, ” “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman, commits adultery.” And, ““…anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.”
The article you posted ignores these verses, and instead replaces them with one verse, taken out of context, and changes the obviously intended meaning of it. Otherwise Paul has contradicted himself in only 10 or so verses.
I have no desire to post on that blog. But I do disagree with it.
I am sorry if this angers you. It is not my intention. I am trying to speak the truth in love. Not pervert it to support any of my own personal feelings or experiences. That is what I will be held accountable for.
Please feel free to ignore my comment if it bothers you.
Blessings,
~a
Amy, I think you are sweet and sincere, and your will to obey God is amazing. I was a little put off because I saw Alison’s comment calling mine ridiculous, then asking me to repeat myself, then you offering more dissent. The bottom line, though, is that I don’t think this should be continued; we won’t agree and only continue to derail the topic and clutter the comments. It’s not so much a matter to me of ignoring your comments, but ignoring comments addressed to ME; I find that very hard. As another pointed out in that link, the correct translation spoke of putting a wife away, not divorcing her. I believe another translation should be considered, while you and Alison don’t seem to agree with the concept of studying something further if there seems to truly be something wrong with the current belief regarding it. We’ve hit a brick wall, and any further attempts at drilling through it will be fruitless.
I’m sorry if my comment upset you. That was not my intention. I don’t think I was asking you to repeat yourself, because I have yet to see how you interpret those specific Scripture references in a different manner. I haven’t seen you answer that question yet. You commented to multiple ladies saying that you interpreted the Bible differently about divorce and remarriage, and yet you didn’t actually state how these verses could be interpreted in a different manner. The blog posting you linked to doesn’t address those verses either. I’m not trying to make you angry – I honestly am interested to see what your interpretation of those verses are and how you came to a different conclusion about divorce and remarriage than most of the others ladies who posted here. I’m not trying to cause dissent, but am interested in your point of view. Blessings.
It’s all right Alison, thank you. But I did explain: Paul says a woman shouldn’t be bound if she’s been abandoned, and one of the posters on that site I linked mentioned that Jesus spoke of a wife being forced to commit adultery if she remarried, not after getting divorced, but after being “put away”, a practice back then that Jewish men sometimes did if they tired of their wives (apparently a different translation of the word Jesus used was “put away”, not “divorce”); rather than divorcing them and freeing them, they’d just put them away, set them aside. Paul and Jesus exhort tight marriages and God hates divorce, but I think abandonement was a clear exception. Of course, I also understand we are to do whatever we can to mend marriages and, in any situation, focus on the rules, not the exceptions.
Oh, and here is an excellent explanation of divorce/remarriage using ALL Scriptural references as opposed to picking and choosing. It is written by John Piper:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/resources/divorce-remarriage-a-position-paper
I didn’t think I could be more sickened by this derailing of the topic, but I am. How weird: remarriage is wrong, but if it happens, it was God’s will? Sure; typical Calvinist logic. One of the roots here though is that I don’t believe every legal union was sanctioned by God to begin with. That article gave the same trapped feeling that Piper’s given me at his worst before: women stuck in second place for eternity and every person frozen as either God’s damned or His saved before they were born (Calvinism and complimentarianism). Ugh, horrific. And now, bound to an evil spouse in flesh and “holiness” because you had the misfortune to make a legal union with them. Well, I suppose there’s another way to deal with a brutal spouse: kill them in self-defense. Taking their life will no doubt be more justified than committing the awful sin of divorce.
Polygamy is the state of having more than one sexual partner/spouse at the same time.
The modern dating scene bears a far closer resemblance to serial monogamy than it does to polygamy. Unbiblical dating (which usually involves excessive emotional or sexual intimacy) prepares one for serial monogamy, divorce, adultery, and other sinful things, but does not seem related to true polygamy, in which one man is married to/sexually active with multiple women at the same time.
True polygamy is never condemned outright in the Bible. I don’t believe it is for us today, mostly becaue it doesnt seem to be a functional relationship type in modern times. But I don’t know what correlation there could be between polygamy and modern dating that doesn’t also exist between modern dating and homosexuality. The two simply aren’t related. Modern dating is far more similar to adultery than it is to polygamy.
I won’t even attempt to wade into the divorce debate because it’s so inflammatory, but I just wanted to share my two cents on something to which I’ve given a lot of thought.
Grace and peace,
Lori
VERY interesting observation, Lori.
Lori,
“But I don’t know what correlation there could be between polygamy and modern dating”
The post explained the connection–it’s not exactly direct. As our dating system entrenches us in the habit of dropping one relationship for another, we carry that mindset into marriage, thus the enormous divorce rate. Because God said that once two people are married they remain married (one flesh) in his eyes until one of the spouses dies, technically speaking, remarriage is the practice of polygamy. That’s the connection.
Your quote of my post was misleading. What I said, in full, was “I don’t know what correlation there could be between polygamy and modern dating ***that doesn’t also exist between modern dating and homosexuality***.” I think it makes a difference. I understand your point about the relationship between dating and polygamy, but I don’t agree with it.
Also, in reply, you said the following: “Because God said that once two people are married they remain married (one flesh) in his eyes until one of the spouses dies, technically speaking, remarriage is the practice of polygamy.”
But the Bible is very clear that remarriage after divorce is *adultery*, not polygamy.
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11-12)
Why does such a person commit adultery and not polygamy? Because, according to my understanding of the Scriptures, the second marriage is not actually a real marriage. Thus, a man who remarries after divorce is really just cheating on his first wife with his second “wife” in a way that is sanctioned by society. This is not polygamy; it is, rather, adultery, as the Scriptures tell us it is.
Although monogamous marriage is presented as the ideal in the Bible, I don’t see anywhere that directly condemns polygamy in the way that adultery, fornication, bestiality, and other forms of sexual immorality are condemned. Like I said, I don’t believe polygamy has a place in today’s society, but it’s not condemned outright in Scripture and is hardly on par with adultery etc.
Well why would it be conpared to beastiality, Lori H? Sheesh. At least polygamy involved HUMAN sex. It amazes me how Scripture can be misapplied; there are people who believe that polygamy’s not that bad and abuse isn’t grounds for divorce. Wow.
Oh, come on. I didn’t say it should be *compared* to bestiality. I simply said that God specifically condemned adultery, fornication, bestiality, and a ton of other sexual sins (many of them in proximity to one another in the Bible, which I why I pointed them out), but did not specifically address polygamy.
Mormon polygamy is wrong because so much of it involves abuse/domination/marrying children/whatever, but I’m not talking about Mormon polygamy. I’m talking about what the BIBLE says about polygamy (one man with several wives), which is nothing in a direct sense. Polygamy between consenting adults in situations where it might be warranted (I’m thinking here of a patriarchal nation of war widows left without husbands) is not directly condemned by Scripture. That said, I don’t think it’s a relationship structure that works very well today. I’m certainly not a polygamist, but I don’t think we do much good when we try to impose our modern cultural norms on the eternal truth of the Word of God.
Also, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to divorce for abuse. This is something I’ve been exploring lately. Though I haven’t come to a conclusion yet, Malachi 2:16 seems to address this issue: “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel. “I hate the person who covers himself with violence,” says the LORD of Armies. “Be careful not to be unfaithful.”
It seems like God equates both divorce and violence with unfaithfulness. When a spouse is unfaithful, divorce becomes a biblical option. That doesn’t mean it becomes a biblically REQUIRED option (that is, as with adultery, some spouses may still choose to work it out), but it may be one option out of several that is available to an abused spouse.
That’s a great point about divorce, Lori H. And as I’ve pointed out before, a marriage can be destroyed before a legal separation takes place; in short, a spiritual, mental and emotional divorce takes place before the legal one. But I do firmly believe in the plain obviousness of polygamy being hated. God speaks of marriage over and over and it NEVER includes more than one person. It may have been necessary at one point, but at heart it’s a practice degrading to women, dehumanizing them and their natural need (and God’s natural design) for monogamy.
“It NEVER includes more than one person”
More than one person for a given person to marry, I mean.
I’m really not seeing polygamy in the Bible as something that God hates, and particularly not as something that God “plainly obviously” hates.
The following Bible figures were polygamists, with the number of wives of each in parentheses: Abraham (3), Jacob (4), Esau (3), David (at least 18, probably more – note that God “gave [David] his masters’ wives,” so God *caused* the polygamy in this case – can God sin? – 2 Samuel 12:7-8), Ezra (2), Elkanah (2 – Hannah and Penninah), Hosea (probably 2), Gideon (“many” – Judges 8:30), Lamech (2), Solomon (at least 700), Saul (at least 2), and several additional less prominent Bible characters.
Many of them, as you can probably see from the list above, were holy men whom God used to give His Word to the people. Never does God condemn their polygamy (although the Lord does disapprove of Solomon’s marriages to foreign wives, but only because he began to worship their foreign gods and not because he married more than one; and of David’s marriage to Bathsheba, but only because he impregnated her, killed her husband, and then married her). It’s a rare thing indeed in Scripture that someone does something wrong or sinful and the Scripture fails to mention it…but if polygamy is truly sinful, then that’s certainly what God has done here.
I hope my tone is not coming across nasty in any way. I’m quite enjoying this discussion in a very calm way, but I know from events in the past that I can come across in the wrong way simply because you can’t see my face or hear my heart. Please give me the benefit of the doubt that I come in peace. 🙂
God bless!
And again, I want to note that I’m not saying polygamy is *for today*, or that it’s an optimal lifestyle, but I’m saying that it’s not unbiblical and certainly not something God has unequivocally declared his hatred for.
We get into dangerous territory when we start declaring God’s opinion about something on the basis of how we feel He should think, rather than on what the Bible says. Our feelings are unreliable and influenced by culture in a way that the timeless Word of God cannot be (although perhaps some translations are…no, I’m not hating on any particular translation).
No problem, Lori. I think God tolerated a lot of things He didn’t like, and as I said it MAY have been necessary at the time for reproductive purposes. God had a plan for those women and men; He so often turns our messes into His glory. Notice how many fights came from such unions, unhappy women (and henpecked men, heh). I still recommend reading “Wife No. 19”, it’s very revelatory.
I’ve read that book. It is very revelatory, but only of the pitfalls/abuses/problems with early Mormon polygamy and not with polygamy as a whole. A large percentage of monogamous marriages are seriously messed up – with adultery, abuse, or divorces due to “irreconcilable differences” – but we don’t use that as a reason to condemn monogamy as a whole, do we? No, we rather say that if it isn’t orking, these people are doing monogamy the wrong way.
Just because some polygamous marriages are messed up or bad is not a reason to condemn all polygamy. It’s sort of like how we don’t stop going to church just because there are some people there who don’t live godly lifestyles or whatever.
Also, let’s not forget that God didn’t merely tolerate David’s polygamy; God CAUSED David’s polygamy by giving David his master’s wives. Thus, since God cannot sin or cause us to sin, it cannot be said that polygamy is sinful.
My position on the Bible is this: God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.
Lori, polygamy IS wicked. The nature of it is sex for the men, emotional rot for the women; it doesn’t matter what belief system holds it. Women are built for monogamy, and this sickness slaps them in the face. It’s not the belief system that makes it rotted through; it’s the practice itself.
I can’t believe you’d compare monogamy to polygamy because SOME marriages have problems. Do you know why adultery’s bad? Because marriage is meant for two. Polygamy’s wicked at core, monogamy’s NOT. God’s definition of marriage is very clear, and it’s nought to do with polygamy. Polygamy is a patricentric practice that gives women no honor at all and must always consist within some twisted belief that they somehow deserve less, less than a holy union with a husband who will cherish only them.
Those are all very good reasons to disapprove personally of polygamy, Jennifer, but they are not reasons to attribute hatred of polygamy TO GOD when He has not given us His opinion on the issue. Let us not forget that the early parts of the Bible are probably what you would call “patricentric.” Let us not forget that the whole reason for Eve’s existence was centered around Adam’s need for a helper or companion. Did that make Eve less? NO, just different.
Let’s try this instead, because I feel that we are not working from the same set of basic premises at all. Jennifer, what do you believe about the Bible?
Lori. The glaring truth is that the first parts of the Bible were patricentric because mankind was fallen and often abusive to women. Eve was created because God needed two people to accomplish His purpose, not ADAM’S purpose. I’m not going to get into a big discussion about gender because this is a moot point here: the bottom line is that polygamy and similar trash was a product of its time. You know what else was tolerated? Slavery. You think that practice is okay?
You’ve said that polygamy is wicked, but I’ve said that God caused polygamy to occur in at least one instance (see 2 Samuel 12:7-8). Is God then a cause of wickedness? Is God a sinner? NO, we can’t say that at all! What conclusion is left?
But if you don’t believe in the basic truth of the Bible, I don’t know what to say to you except that we are working from two very different paradigms and talking past each other in a way that’s wholly unproductive.
Plenty of things were acceptable in Bible times that are not currently acceptable in our cultural context…but this is more about culture than it is about eternal truth. The only source of eternal truth (at least in the Christian context) is God and His Word, the Bible.
I’m sorry you think of it that way.
“the second marriage is not actually a real marriage. Thus, a man who remarries after divorce is really just cheating on his first wife with his second “wife” in a way that is sanctioned by society.”
You’re right.
Wow, Kelly, when you extracted that part of what I said to agree with it, you really called my attention to what I actually said, and I am very sad and grieved and angry with the lies our culture tells about its true nature.
May we never stop making war with the father of lies!
Lori, I don’t know maybe it’s regional but there is a segment of the youth population that does practice “dating” with multiple sexual partners. They might have a long term bf/gf and a few on the side, or several people they go back and forth between on a regular basis. I find it gross and degrading, but I also have noticed it being somewhat normative for quite a while. I started hearing about it in highschool, the way kids talked about their “relationships” and i’ve noticed it increasing in youth culture since then.
Hmm, maybe it is my area of the country or simply the type of people I keep company with (which includes Christians and nonbelievers, but generally more of the “moral”-type nonbelievers), but as sexually lax as youth in my area seem to be, there is a definite taboo on being involved with more than one person at the same time. Doing so indeed would be similar to polygamy (but, of course, an immoral form of it).
However, what Kelly described was serial dating: “We can indulge in a physical and emotional experience meant to be reserved for marriage and then drop it on a dime and move on to the next person.” Serial monogamy in dating is much more common than maintaining multiple sexual relationships at the same time, I would think. Certainly it’s the case among all of the sexually active teens and young adults I know…and that’s unfortunately a lot since I’m only in my mid-twenties. 🙁
[…] rest is here: Dating & Marriage: Do We Promote Polygamy? | If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it! Tagged with: […]
Amy Danielle Smith,
It has been a true blessing to read each of your comments. What an incredible and needed reminder to *always* be looking to Scripture for our answers (in every area of life!). Thank you!
Charity- you encourage me, sweet sister. I haved bowed out, concerned that I was going past trying to offer biblical instruction into contention.
I just know that, in the end, we all have to stand before God and will be accountable for what His word says. If we have chosen to base our beliefs on feelings, circumstances, or even the words of other people (I think some commentaries are waaaaaay out there) then we will have to answer for that. Mostly, I don’t want, in my love and compassion for someone’s situation or feelings, lead them away from the Lord. I always want to lead them back to God.
The scriptures are our only safeguard. The book of Revelation warns for no one to add anything to or take anything away from God’s word. I don’t want to be guilty of that. It doesn’t help me win any popularity contests, but that is ok. 🙂
As Jesus said, He who has words to hear, let him hear. And, blessed is he who is not offended in me.
Blessings to you, Charity, and all of you readers.
I, too, completely agree with your comments, Amy! You did an impeccable job of portraying Scriptural truth and you answered the sometimes ridiculous replies with much grace, truth, and patience. I agree that we are to follow God’s word when making decisions and choosing how to live, and He seems to be abundantly clear on this issue. Thanks for your comments! 🙂
Thank you Alison. It means a lot. Especially because as I have read some of the other comments, I have gotten the impression that others think the responses would have been interpreted as harsh to someone who is considering a divorce, going through one, or already divorced. It has never been my intention to be anything but gentle, loving and respectful. I can not, for the life of me, think of any other way to say it any gentler.
I have to assume that those who say it is harsh and unloving, who SAY we should speak the truth in love, can not REALLY mean we should speak the whole truth, if it is going to upset or offend anyone. This makes me sad.
Ultimately though, the issue is ALWAYS, what does God’s word say? We need to be about our Father’s buiness, speaking the truth in gentleness while at the same time not shrinking away from tough subjects. God’s word can be hard to swallow at times, but it is certainly nothing to apologize about.
Thanks again for your kind, encouraging words.
I would submit that “dating” itself is not wrong, depending on how you define the term. For me, dating is the period of time spent with one person previous to marriage (which is preceded by engagement, a shorter period of time). The way the world treats the dating relationship is of course entirely off. I myself am twenty, currently dating my first (and unless one of us perishes suddenly, my only) girlfriend (for eight months tomorrow), and agree with this to an extent. However, I am pretty much unable financially to marry before I graduate from college, at the age of twenty-three, and I do believe there is a possible “right” way to date, according to the following (admittedly highly idealistic) rules:
1) Do not date someone you do not want to marry; do not even consider dating someone with a different spiritual situation. Dating is not to be “what I do to find the right one” as the world sees it, but rather, since it has been unfortunately imposed upon us by modern society and there seems to be no way around it, make it clear to your significant other beforehand that you would not consider dating them if you are not serious about marrying them. I suppose in some way this may freak many people out, but this might just be a good thing. One must explain to them that…
2) One should not say “I love you” unless he knows what it means, and means it. “I love you”, as opposed to the sometimes more accurate “I am in love with you”, is a promise, not just something one says to their significant other to give/get the warm fuzzies. If one truly loves someone, he will always love them.
3) Let the relationship mirror Christ’s love for us. If one is genuinely concerned about the other person, he will not “dating-divorce” them for moronic reasons, or even rather serious reasons, but will be willing to work things out, building a bridge of trust between the two of them. One must work at loving the other person, no matter what they do or have done. Hosea married a prostitute, and she went right back to doing her thing, but he stuck with her.
4) Ideally, one should try to keep physical contact to a minimum. The act of sex is absolutely out of the question, as are any forms of sexual contact. Kissing is dangerous, unless one has, as I suggested earlier, already determined with their significant other (making these mental commitments without discussing them are not a good idea :p) that they do plan on making their union legal and public with a ceremony corresponding to their culture in the very near future.
5) If the couple does have sex, they have consummated their union; therefore, whether legally or not, the couple is now married. Divorce, or a breakup, is morally out of the question at this point, as the two are now one.
This is my opinion on dating, and how I believe it is possible to go about it the “right” way. Yes, I am a bit of a strange intellectual specimen for someone of my age that I am thinking this way, but I am very big on commitment and family. Questions and comments are welcome 🙂
I realize that I shifted perspective in the first paragraph. Please overlook said error 🙂
Greg, how would it be showing Christ’s love to continue in a relationship, knowing that the two people involved are not compatible for marriage? That seems like the sure way to end up in a miserable marriage with the couple longing for divorce. I posted up a little in this thread, I ended a year and half relationship with a guy I had known my whole life because we made great friends but horrible marriage partners. We love each other a great deal, but it is a friendship love, not a marriage love. The most loving thing we did was to realize this wasn’t going to work.
I have a question on number 5- if this were true (that the act of sex makes one married) then why is there a differenciation in scripture between wives and concubines?
Another scripture that comes to mind is in the New Testament, when Jesus is speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well. He tells her she has had several husbands and that the man she was currently living with was NOT her husband.
I am adding this to the bottom, because things got kind of confusing due to the liveliness of this discussion.
We have not followed a strict courtship model. Our oldest is 23 and has been married for over a year now to the most wonderful young man we could ever have imagined.
We talked a great deal for years about the qualities she should pray for in a husband. We prayed from before she was born. She came to the place of brokenness where she laid her future on the altar before the Lord. She told Him she would be single all her life or she would wait for Him to bring the man He had chosen for her. It was not easy. And it was tempting to take back her offer. But, the Lord honored her desire to walk in complete submission and literally dropped this young man in her lap! She heard someone mention his name before she ever met him, and she felt her spirit leap inside her. A mutual friend introduced them. This precious young man, of his own accord, came to my husband and asked his blessing for them to pursue a relationship.
We didn’t force it. The character of the young man and our daughter directed, even demanded the process. He came to our house regularly and they also spent time together away from our home. But it was because they believed the Lord was moving them toward marriage. Not to just date.
This young man came back to my husband several months later and asked for our daughter’s hand in marriage. He received our full blessing.
And our second daughter is following the same path. By her choosing. One down, 6 more children to go!!! (If the Lord calls them all to marriage) And I face it without fear because I have seen His Provision beyond my wildest dreams.
So my testimony to young women out there is this: If you will lay your future on the altar before the Lord, He will bless you in ways you can’t even imagine.
I am believing the Lord will provide our sons with specific direction so they will be directed to the young women the Lord will bless them with as wives. He is so Faithful.
Then Kelly, YOU are a polygamist. You had sexual relations before marriage to your current partner, did you not? You had a daughter. So you were in fact, married.
I wonder how you live with this shame.
Miri,
Though your comment should be deleted because it is full of dissent and insincerity, I’m answering in hopes to clear up a huge misunderstanding it reflects.
It is precisely because of my sinful past (which I’ve openly shared here) that I am so passionate about exposing the dangers of dating. But I don’t live with shame anymore because of grace. And that grace extends to all who have sought repentance. That’s why I don’t understand the accusations of my “judging” or people who feel so guilty about reading things like “God hates divorce” if they’ve had a divorce. Those of us who have sinned (um, that’d be all) have forgiveness but past sins NEVER give us the right to change the truth.
I don’t write to condemn and as Paul would say, “I’m the chief among sinners!” so a comment like yours doesn’t even make sense to me. We still proclaim truth. (Imagine Paul giving into to his accusers because of his murderous past! “How can you preach love when you’ve killed so many people??”)
Hope that explains away your confusion.
Further sarcasm will be deleted.
Your wisdom was expressed in Grace and Love and His Body is edified by your proclamation of Truth. Thank you for being willing to suffer for His sake! You are such an encouragement to me.
Thank you for that.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Bless you Kelly!
I have written on this topic, examining the Scriptures for anything relevant to marriage, divorce, and remarriage from both the Old and New Testaments.
You can read my findings in “Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: Fresh Help and Hope from the Bible” (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1604770279)
That is certainly an interesting perspective on it. I’ve never thought of it that way. While I find it interesting to think about for myself, I think I’d probably find a more compassionate way of expressing it to someone who was actually dealing with the issue of divorce in their marriage. It seems to me a lot of the initial comments on here would sound a bit harsh to someone considering divorce, going through divorce, or recovering from divorce. Not exactly a person-centered response.
I agree with pretty much everything I’ve read from those who dislike and disagree with the way people date in our culture. However, I think people are reacting to the ideas without considering who it is that makes these bad decisions. I think the answer to combating these cultural ideas is to start caring about people–about their pain, about helping them identify what they are missing. It’s important to be bold in expressing the truth and it’s important not to compromise His truth with anything, but it is also important to express our godly passions through the eyes of Love–not a desire to be right.
Getting back to the topic, my husband and I basically courted instead of dated. We didn’t realize that we were courting until later, haha. Basically, both of us had been in one previous relationship and both of us had felt the pain of breaking up. It was high school and we got over it, as most do, but it still hurt. Both of us had the mindset that “dating” was for the purpose of finding a spouse, not just having fun. We ended up praying before we even started scheduling time together and asking our parents’ opinions about it. When they gave us the green light and when we both felt God was pleased with the idea, we started hanging out–in my parents living room. If we weren’t at my house with my family, we were with peers at adult-supervised church events and parties. It was over a year before he was allowed to take me places in his car. We would go on walks in my neighborhood sometimes, since it was an active suburban area.
Even in our well-protected and well-intentioned circumstances, we STILL struggled with trying to be too close too fast. So I can only imagine how tough it is for girls these days to maintain a standard through a series of relationships before she even hits college-age!
My husband and I married after “courting” for two years, engaged for one. We’ve been married six years and we have three children, with one on the way. I think the reason we were ready to get married so young (19 and 21) was because we consistently checked with God and with authority figures in our lives that we were on the right path. Inviting family and mentors to support a romantic relationship gives that relationship such a strong foundation and such strong accountability.
Today’s model of dating is so flimsy, so focused on making those new feelings the center of your universe, so ISOLATED… It just isn’t ideal. God can redeem pretty much anything and there are plenty of strong marriages that started out in the culture’s idea of dating–but I firmly believe that God has better ways of doing things.
~V
Kelly, please help me understand something. I am not interested in your past or in judging it. That is between you and God and is nobody else’s business, so please do not consider this question as going in that direction.
What I want to know is this: If a Christian has sinned by consummating a relationship before marriage, they can still repent and marry and start over. However, if a person is divorced, they are, in most circumstances, not allowed to start over by remarrying?
Avaya,
As far as I see, for one, fornication and marriage are not the same and are not held by the same stipulations. A “harlot” to use the biblical term that would have been ascribed to me is not forbidden to marry, that I can find, in Scripture, (though very few men would have been willing) so that’s the best answer I have. Now I do believe people that remarry can receive forgiveness, but the question in this thread is about a Christian’s duty who knows and understands Scripture.
Thank you Kelly.
Yes.
Your article and it’s stance is one of the reasons I’m so saddened by my (usually) solid Biblical teaching church. The elders have started an “elders in training class” and two of the men are divorced. I (along with many other church members) was stunned and saddened and even angry. My husband and I are composing a letter of disagreement and sharing, as are others in the church. I’m hoping our elders see their mistake, but the fact that they have even allowed this step breaks my heart.
Well, they don’t have authority over adults. I think that was the main point and concern, and some foolishly have contradicted this.
Although I know divorce is sometimes inevitable (I myself have been divorced when I was young but my second husband and I will celebrate our 25th anniversary next year), here are a couple of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard about marriage. Neither one comes from the Bible, but I believe they are in the spirit of what the Bible says about marriage.
(1) When you are young, your love will sustain your marriage. As the years pass, your marriage will sustain your love. (a paraphrase of what has been attributed to Martin Luther, I think)
(2) If your marriage has problems, mend it, not end it. (spoken by the lead male character in the movie “Marley and I” when his friend was telling him he wanted to divorce his wife)
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Pieter Schultz, Stuff Fundies Like. Stuff Fundies Like said: Are you a Dating Polygamist?? http://generationcedar.com/2010/10/dating-and-marriage-are-we-promoting-polygamy.html BEWARE!!! […]
Praise God, most of the Chile miners have now been rescued!!
Jennifer,
There is no option to reply after your last comment so I’m replying here to it:
First, I want to ask you to be careful with the words you use (“horrific” has been used twice today to describe something many of us hold dear.)
Secondly, I know you think you’re right about each subject you speak on, and thus far, you have insisted on the last word in every argument and refused to budge your stance even though you’re never able to produce a scriptural backing for it. You’ve given feeling, emotion and opinion as your “proof” for why a thing is right, but we prefer to hold to what God says in determining what is right. You have much good to say, don’t get me wrong, but sometimes your insistence on what is “horrific” and what is not is over the top and rooted in “Jennifer’s opinion” but stated as fact.
I don’t think anyone has ever challenged you on Calvinism and for the sake of challenge, I’d rather drop the term altogether and challenge you to consider ONLY what Scripture teaches about salvation, the sovereignty of God, etc. Calvinism didn’t make up a doctrine; he articulated what he found to be true in scripture.
One may disagree with some of his points, but one CANNOT disagree about what Scripture says (except those who do not believe in the inerrancy of it).
So my challenge is to counter what you inaccurately described in the phrase:
First, complementarianism is not “second place”. Is God’s first place. If I balk at being thought of as “my husband’s helper”, if I have issues with considering it my privilege to “further my husband’s vision/mission” as I am a team-player with him, then I have to shake my fist at what God created. Period. We’ve been around this block before but the fact remains that no amount of rearranging/reinterpreting Scripture changes what God clearly has spoken. There’s nothing “second-rate” about God’s design. It only becomes second rate when I alter it’s purpose.
For the second part…
We hold some mysteries of God in each hand. On the one hand there is an obvious element of “man’s will” in Scripture. We can choose to submit or reject His mercy and grace. We believe that “For God so loved the world He sent His Son…” and “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
In the other hand, we must hold His sovereignty and the doctrine of election CLEARLY taught in scripture.
To do otherwise is to ignore and dismiss parts of God’s Word. The problem is that our finite minds cannot reconcile the two and so we tend to grab one and ignore the other…a wrong approach.
I could go on. And as Spurgeon wrote, “If the people are called elect, there must be election.”
So I guess I’m answering you to say that though you spout off at “that horrible man Calvin”, when you take jabs at the doctrine of election, you jab at what is clearly taught in Scripture and I take serious issue with that.
“What if God…” how does one argue with that? Yes, there are HARD things in Scripture that we desperately want to smooth away. “This is a hard saying; who can hear it?”
It is God’s grace that ANY of us are allowed to have our hearts softened and eyes opened. Who are we to argue?
So please be careful.
“First, complementarianism is not “second place”. Is God’s first place. If I balk at being thought of as “my husband’s helper”, if I have issues with considering it my privilege to “further my husband’s vision/mission” as I am a team-player with him, then I have to shake my fist at what God created. Period.”
Kelly, although I am a complementarian now, I have never made this connection in my mind. For someome who was “indoctrinated” and raised on feminism, with an unfit earthly father figure, with a Type A personality, oldest child syndrome, and an angry and arrogant disposition, I spent many years doing just that – shaking my fist at God for creating me a woman and giving women “second-place.” Only a deep and long trial that kept me on my knees before God and years of reading His Word did I finally see what He wanted me to see – that my soul was equal in His sight but my role on this earth was different. Only when I stopped trying to be a man and shaking my fist at God did I find a peace about this matter. Thanks.
Comments jumping again??!!
I also wanted to add, Jennifer, that this article, though I haven’t read it entirely seems to have an excellent explanation of the doctrine of election FROM SCRIPTURE, not Calvin.
http://www.scionofzion.com/election2.htm
Kelly, I HAVE used Scripture to back myself in this issue. Disagreements here are almost always based on reading Scripture differently.
““horrific” has been used twice today to describe something many of us hold dear.)”
I only recall using it to describe being bound to a horrific human being. If I used it for anything else, sorry.
“I know you think you’re right about each subject you speak on”
I think we all think we’re right, Kelly. If I have questions I’ll ask them, and I’ve altered my stance on abortion and the current conditions of public school because of this blog, but if I don’t change my mind, it’s because I’m deeply convicted.
I honestly don’t care about the last word, so long as someone else’s doesn’t compel me to respond to it. It’s a drive I like less than you do; so many times I want to say, “Just leave me be about this! Think what you want, but don’t keep arguing because I’ll feel I have to counter it”, and sometimes I feel this way for the sake of others who might be reading it.
“You have insisted on the last word in every argument and refused to budge your stance even though you’re never able to produce a scriptural backing for it”
You know that’s unfair. There have been various arguments and numerous times, I have provided Scriptural backing. If I didn’t offer more, it’s because I feared contradiction from all sides and didn’t want a long debate. Fat lot of good THAT did.
“You’ve given feeling, emotion and opinion as your “proof” for why a thing is right, but we prefer to hold to what God says in determining what is right”
Ok, I hesitate to speak more on divorce since I’m not even sure this was mainly what you were referring to, as your post addressed some other things (and BOY do I want this to end), but I’d like to clarify. I don’t think it’s over the top to say that God wouldn’t consider a woman (or man) still married, or acting like it in any way, to a monster. God has a definition of marriage, and it’s more than a legal union, so I don’t believe a legal union alone makes a marriage. And another thing I realized? Rapists and child abusers would be put to death in Biblical times, so it was never an ISSUE for their wives to ponder divorce and remarriage back then; Jesus had no reason to clarify or give a “what to do then” talk on that score. I know you’re still pondering this issue, and so am I. I trust God and refuse to take the Scripture loosely; this isn’t over for me. But I also trust that sometimes He expects to use common SENSE. Staying married to a dissolute person, in any manner, is not sensible or holy to me.
“We’ve been around this block before but the fact remains that no amount of rearranging/reinterpreting Scripture changes what God clearly has spoken”
And herein lies the root: Scripture very clearly speaks to me, and many others, about partnership, not one in line behind the other. As for election, there are so many Scriptures to contradict that and I will NEVER, ever believe that it’s clearly taught; not ever. I respect many Calvinists because they’ve proven themselves worthy Christians, like you and Martha Peace and Stacy Mcdonald and even Piper, but their stance on Calvinism will never alter mine. That’s the last thing you could change my mind about. And trust me, I say this with all respect, you don’t want to get me going there; it upsets me so much I’ve been known to froth at the mouth.
I wasn’t intending to throw out insults to those who disagree, but I was expressing unhappiness because reading Piper’s article, expressing that there are no exceptions for true divorce, was not only awful but brought back other bad memories; I lashed at it like a snared fox at its trap. This is my reaction when something with teeth tries to choke me.
“Horrific” has been used twice today to describe something many of us hold dear.”
Oh, did you mean that book by Darien Cooper too, on the other post? If so, sorry. But some of her advice was hor-well, awful. Like praising a woman who obeyed her husband and was going to go with him to a tavern. Some people get the idea of submission so screwed up, making it about hierarchy instead of love. But that pattern of thinking leaks into everything else as well. I know what it’s like to have something you love called horrid; I can’t say how egaliatrianism and mutual servant-love changed my life, and I’ve seen it put down, called “from the pits of hell” by one lovely woman, and read the chapter in “Passionate Housewives” comparing it to a dirty dog. As for as marriage books go, you wouldn’t believe what I would have said about Elizabeth George and Debi Pearl’s work 4 yrs ago! God led me deeper into their words and I have actually changed.
I recant the part of “you never change your mind” since you pointed out my error…sorry.
Answer me this though…you said:
“As for election, there are so many Scriptures to contradict that and I will NEVER, ever believe that it’s clearly taught”
You seem to have missed the part where I said “we must hold both in our hands” meaning, both parts of Scripture that *seem* to contradict each other in our human minds.
The fact is Jennifer, that Scripture CANNOT contradict itself as that would make God a liar. He said both things (the examples I gave earlier) which means I have to accept both things or call God a liar.
Explain to me, point by point, verse by verse from the previous list I gave which clearly teaches the doctrine of election. If election is not something the Bible teaches, you MUST be able to unravel and dismiss all the verses that in fact do teach election. Until then, no amount of “frothing at the mouth” will change what the word of God says…kicking and screaming or not. God’s Word DEMANDS our belief or we can’t be called followers of Christ.
Wouldn’t you disagree, Kelly, no matter what I said? And wouldn’t this begin another long debate? I don’t “froth” because I fear I’m wrong, but because the topic upsets me so much. I don’t fear those passages, or their power; had them thrown at me before, and I guess you don’t see just how much I won’t ever agree with this. A few passages out of context will do nothing to contradict the entire rest of the Bible, which makes it clear God doesn’t engage in evil, nor will it fix the insane circular logic of Calvanism. I don’t dismiss any Scripture, I interpret it, like anyone else. I have answers for you, but I hesitate to post them here.
As far as God choosing us before we chose Him, that’s always been true; He chose the world when He died for us, though many didn’t choose Him and tragically never would. To those that would, He spoke more than once. His crucifiction has always shown that He chose us before we ever chose Him; we didn’t ask for His sacrifice nor welcome it, but He gave it just the same. As for the quote from Peter, was it speaking directly of salvation? And was it speaking of Christians at the time or all time? God knows of course who will choose Him and who won’t; this passage expresses that incredibly complex fact. My answer thus already may open a can of worms. The rest are more complex. It’s always been true that God will have compassion on whom He will and will punish whom He will; this, too, depends on His knowledge of who would recant and who wouldn’t. He had mercy on Lot; he had no mercy on those awful Canaanites. He had mercy on David; He had no mercy on Judah’s two sons. I believe God knew Pharaoh wouldn’t recant, so hardening him required little effort. We have no idea how this occured; it may have been something as simple as letting Pharaoh see his empty fields during a particularly angry moment, which would provoke him, rather than God actually controlling his mind, which is not His way. As for this line “It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy”, this sounds directly related to God’s gift of Christ compared to our own efforts of salvation. Without Him, before or after Christ, lives had no direction. As for this “One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?” I don’t like the words saying “common use” and “noble use”, since nobility and common-ness are rarely regarded in human terms when it comes to God’s Kingdom; sounds like he was referring more to the human caste system, which God’s used very differently from our expectations as it is. But we are all born into different circumstances and with different deficiencies; do we have right to yell at God for this, or blame our actions on the circumstances we were born into? No we don’t; a child with abusive parents cannot justify any abuse he has committed later in life. And I won’t believe for a SECOND that God allowed him to be born for the purpose of being abused or causing it; He has plans for all of us, and those plans are not to use us as punching bags so His precious chosen can learn more before their inevitable, uncontrollable saving anyway. What a grand puppet drama that would be, though. Likewise, some people prepare themselves for destruction.
“What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory…Romans 9:14-23″
God does prepare some wicked people for destruction, and He often bears their crimes with patience BEFORE destroying them, because His timing of taking them down is planned in such a way as to show the rest of the world who’s in charge, and quite often to teach us, His Christian children, a valuable lesson to take with us for life.
Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage by John Coblentz is a good book(Christian Light Publications). My pastor will not marry divorced people. We do have divorced couples in our church. rejoiceministries is a good web site- a couple who divorced then remarried started it. The King James Bible in Matthew 5 and 19 says-“saving for the cause of fornication”/ “except it be for fornication”. In Matthew 1 they called each other husband and wife during the Jewish betrothal time. The modern Bibles have changed the word fornication to adultery. Just because abortion and divorce are legal doesn’t mean that God has to support it. Marriage is the vows/ceremony between a man and woman.
What a cruel pastor.
If the word fornication was changed to adultery, then that’s definitely a cultural rule. There’s no way Christ Himself would declare a marriage null because one of the spouses sinned before marriage; it goes against all His teachings of forgiveness. The whole “if you’re not really a virgin the contract is broken” bogus business is strictly OT practice and has everything to do with bargains and nothing to do with the bonds of actual marriage.