Some friends of ours are undergoing, in my opinion, a shocking and frightening experience at their church.
Our friends have chosen to keep their children with them in the worship service (as opposed to sending them to children’s church), and they have opted for their teen aged daughter not to go to youth group (a decision she is in agreement with). Most Sunday nights, they meet at a Bible Study with some other like-minded, homeschooling families rather than attend the night service.
Problem? The pastor and church leaders are irate. In fact, he has requested that they step down from their teaching a Sunday School class, and has had several meetings with them to plead that they not deprive their children. He has also expressed his displeasure at their “sin” of missing Sunday evening services. Yes, he called it sin.
The father of this family is a godly man, and the spiritual leader of his home. Despite their humble appeals and explanations about their choices, the pressure has only intensified. The pastor even recently preached a whole sermon on the sin of missing Sunday night church, and not participating in the church’s programs.
I don’t know how this strikes you, but this scares me silly. When a pastor feels the authority to usurp a father’s authority, insisting that he involve his family and children in activities that the father has chosen not to participate in, something is dreadfully wrong.
I know we’ve discussed youth group and children’s programs before, but this goes far beyond the discussion of church programs…this is the supplanting of fathers as the head of the home, the encroachment of church leaders onto the family, the uninvited arm of bureaucracy imitating government policies within the church of God.
It should be made clear, I am in favor for true, biblical church discipline–an element lacking in in most churches. But disciplining for sin, and trying to force families to participate in optional, extra activities, are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Your thoughts?
26 comments
You know what, I’ve about HAD IT with church myself. I go only because of some obscure verse in Hebrews (LOL) and even then my heart is not in it. It’s because of stuff like that. Do you think I’m ever going to submit a seriously personal prayer request, when I know I’m looked down on whereever I go?? Thank you, but no. And things are really, really, really bad and I sure can’t tell anyone. I’d be giving lots of fuel to the gossip fire!!
I’ve seen where my kids are not really wanted around because they’re a bit strange socially. I can TELL (since I’m not stupid!) that they are not looked upon as respectable members of the community, and by extension, neither am I. It makes me about barf to hear preachers and others talk about missionary work and saving those poor lost when it’s obvious that they don’t really care about the kids they already have who aren’t able to toe that line like the others.
It’s much easier to wax nostalgic about those poor kids in Africa and just ignore that there are hurting families right here that need real support and understanding. And yes, sometimes those families make decisions you don’t like. Live with it.
My husband has already seen through the extremely BAD way our family is continually treated by churches and has opted out entirely. I am going for appearances, and to show the children how important church is (theoretically, anyway, since we go each week… sigh), and maybe some hope that someday, someone in ministry will really GET IT.
I haven’t seen it yet though.
There are *so* many areas you might think are sin that I may not and vice versa. We have to be very careful in judging others.
For example, our church is having a “trick or treat” thing, and no way MY kids are going. To me that would be total sin. But I’m not going to say they’re going to hell or anything either.
Mrs. C
PS. I also hope that my perspective is very flawed. But I don’t see it that way right now.
Well, let me preface this by saying I don’t think there is anything wrong with sunday school or youth group (well…depending on the group…) inherently, and I also don’t believe that the family unit exists as an end to itself. I believe our first responsibility is to God, then to our earthly family, and then to our heavenly family and the world. So I do think it is important to participate in church. Family is the building block of society, not just a series of little individual units.
However, the idea that this family is being ostracized because they want their family to participate in the main service and don’t go twice in one day and don’t force their daughter to go to youth group is…horrifying. It’s ridiculous enough as is, but then for the pastor to actually say it’s SIN not to participate in all of his church programs is…wow. WOW. My heart goes out to that family.
Sadly, I think this kind of abuse of power is becoming more widespread throughout many churches.
When we first started attending a large, evangelical church we were not comfortable leaving our children in Sunday school with complete strangers. However, we were stopped at the door by the ushers and informed that children were not encouraged to attend worship with their parents. We assured them that we were visitors. So they let us in. ha ha.
I totally agree on this point with you, Kelly. I think it’s an absolute SHAME and OUTRAGE that pastors feel entitled to lay that kind of pressure on a godly family!
It amazes me that this kind of persecution can come from WITHIN the church itself! What in the world???!?!?
p.s. Catholic families attend church ALL TOGETHER! most kids who grew up Catholic did not even know the meaning of Sunday school. Church was something you did AS A FAMILY!
My husband was the youth/music pastor in a church in North Dakota – for 9 months. It was a short stay, as there was a big deal about our children not being involved in a chunk of the children’s program. One of the biggest reasons was that they had video games in the classroom, available at all times (except during the actual lesson). So, we chose not to have our children participate. That was greatly frowned upon. The senior pastor, etc., didn’t seem to have a problem with our children opting out of children’s church, however (thankfully), but I guess the other issue was what put them over the top. My husband resigned, with great peace, knowing that we were at an impasse on many things philosophically.
My husband currently pastors a small church in Iowa, where parents are indeed allowed to be the parents, though children’s church, etc., is offered. No one to my knowledge has had an issue with our children not being involved in absolutely everything. I guess we’re pretty blessed!
Like Mrs. T. said, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with the concept of Sunday School, etc. But, the issue lies with whether or not parents can be the parents and have the authority over their children as God has ordained. (BTW, our children range in ages 1-9, so they’re still pretty young).
Well, I know this family you speak of very well. 🙂 You know I have experienced this same thing, (at a different church) and we left the church that insisted we were “scumbags” b/c we weren’t there every time the doors were open and wouldn’t submit to the pastor as the head of our home.
i have also been kicked out (!) of 2 services of 2 different churches in 2 different states (lol) for having a small child with me. Who didn’t make a peep. One was before the services, we were visiting and told we couldn’t stay if our child wasn’t left with their people. We left.
The other was during the service. The preacher stopped and said it was distracting to hold the baby and to please go to the nursery.
I can’t help but think they know not what they do.
Frankly, I find this unbelievable… my church is a long way from perfect, but at least they don’t have a problem with what their congregation members choose to do. They very much encourage participation in small groups, but I have never heard of anyone being criticized for a decision not to participate in youth group, Sunday School, or children’s church. You can have your kids stay with you in the service if they’re quiet, and if they are not, there is a room behind the sanctuary where the sermon is piped in called the “mother’s room.” I am involved with two teaching ministries, and I fully plan to quit them once I have my second child. My first I will keep with me while I teach. I don’t anticipate a problem doing this. My husband and I would like to introduce a family Sunday School class to our church as well, where the whole family can attend the same class (we ended up as Sunday School superintendents, mostly because we were the only ones willing to take the job and who hadn’t had it before).
A few years ago my husband and I left our church because God told us to “flee.” God told my husband “I want to be your pastor.” We have received much backlash because of our obedience to the Lord. Most people assume we have fallen away. Nothing could be farther than the truth. I am so happy with all the change God has brought in me since we left. Sadly, I am not that surprised by the story that you shared. As a whole, we firmly believe the church has become a organization/system that is not what God wants (much like what Jesus encountered). In fact, we believe God wants most people to leave the churches.
Don’t get me wrong though… It’s not that we think that there aren’t many loving Christians going to churches or that every pastor is out of place, but that the SYSTEM is seriously flawed. It is so important that God be the head of His people. Often, groups get so used to doing things certain ways (like the order of church services, etc.) that they aren’t sensitive to God’s Spirit and what He may want to happen that day.
The word “pastor” is fleetingly mentioned in the Bible and if I remember correctly it’s meaning is “to serve.” There is nothing necessarily wrong with having leaders, but when they try and lord over people, instead of serving & pointing them to the true Lord there is a big problem.
God doesn’t care how often we attend or participate in religious activities. He cares if we are seeking to know and follow Him every day. THAT is where its at!
To tell you the truth, to me it sounds a bit… too much. Too insensitive. Too pushy. Too legalistic.
I am new to your blog and I wanted to say that I am enjoying it. I wanted to comment on your post. I think it’s wrong for churches to tell their people that they can’t have their children with them or that they can’t choose to not put their kids in Sunday school or youth groups. I believe that it’s between God and them. My family and I are new to the whole issue with kids not going to Sunday school and youth groups…..the Lord has been dealing with us on that but I will say I can see where youth groups can cause damage in a teen but I also have seen good come from them. I just wanted to say that it is wrong for churches to do that. Blessings.
My husband and I moved to a new state 5 years ago and began church hunting. We tried every church within driving distance that came close to following the Bible. Every one tried to take our child (we only had one at the time)from us in the middle of services. He behaved very well but they would continue to send people to take him. We ended up staying at home to observe the Sabbath. Jesus said to bring the little children unto Him. Even as a very new believer struggling to be obedient to the Bible, I knew that seperating the family was wrong. Then the Lord led us to a radio ministry that can be heard over the internet or shortwave radio worldwide 24/7(also AM or FM in select cities.) We are able to use their programming, free Bible studies, books, and tracts, free audio and video archives, hymn sing programming. We have set up a lovely schedule keeping the Sabbath holy. I don’t miss the fellowship that a church would provide because whereever two or three are gathered in Jesus name, there He will also be. I highly recommend Family Radio (or EBiblefellowhip) for those struggling with their church or can’t for whatever reason leave their home, etc.
I find it revolting that the pastor used the pulpit to have a public ‘dig’ at this family. And I think that expecting a family with small children to go to church on a ‘school night’ (homeschool or not) is a bit much. It is only when there are speciall guest speakers that my husband and I take our children to evening services, and even then, if we can, we’ll have them sat.
I just listened to an awesome audio sermon about this very subject.
http://www.voddiebaucham.org/Podcast/28B5EC1E-A86F-47DA-A2E2-CDF22D5D4F4D.html
I’m not shocked at all. We went through a similar situation.
You know…as goes the culture, so goes the American church. :o/
REFORM! REFORM! REFORM!!!
I am so thankful for where God has lead us! As imperfect as it is.
I think this is so interesting and such a sad state of church affairs. We have friends in another state that are in a family integrated church. They love it and we have been so ministered to by them telling us about the importance of the concept. We don’t have any churches of that nature in our area, unfortunately. Yes, for a pastor of the gospel to tell a father that he is sinning by not participating in church programs is shameful. We went to a great Bible teaching church for a couple of years that firmly believed that young children should not be part of the church service. We were asked to go out once when our daughter had a fever but no other symptoms and we didn’t feel she should be in her class. Something about it did not sit right with me about that situation. I want to worship with my family in my home AND at church; learn the Bible in both places, etc. We are now at a church that has a big children’s program and also allows children to come into the service. We have done both. May the Lord have mercy on us!
We have so much stuff like this going on at my church and we are struggling so bad right now because we don’t know what to do. We are looked down upon because we only go to Sunday School and the Sunday morn. service each week and not the Wed. or Sunday night. We have chosen Sunday nights to be a family time with our daughter before my husband starts his long work week and we have perfect peace about our decision. The part that makes me sick is that according to my Pastor, I am not allowed to teach the children (even though I have 12 years teaching experience from before I was married) because I’m not at every service. I want to serve God!! We are praying about leaving. I hate being looked at like I’m a backslidden heathen just because I don’t go to every single service when there are other women(who “run” our church) who do nothing but gossip and put others down YET, who cares about that because they come to 4 services a wekk…ahhhhh.
Please Pray for me 🙂
LOVE your Blog!!!
Unfortunately this is very common, especially if you are in church leadership. My husband and I had a similar experience years ago. We have since left the modern church and now participate in a home fellowship. Not only for this reason, but one of many. It is just too bad that this family and many others have been hurt by the very people who are supposed to shepherd them. It is times like these you can test the true quality of a persons heart. I still would like to believe not all churches are this way, but as they become more focused on programs, numbers and tithes I am afraid it is much more common than it should be. I will pray for this family and many others who have written here disheartened with the local church. Just remember, there is no perfect church until Christ comes!
Judgment must begin at the house of God. I Peter 4:17
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. Jeremiah 10:21
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. Jeremiah 12:10
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 23:2
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:21,22
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:15-16
Wow! By reading all these comments you’d think every church in America was like this.
Just to add some balance….there are many churches and pastors that are not like this.
Right now the Lord is moving in our church in a very multi-generational way. On Sunday evenings parents and young people have been leading the service together. We are seeing the Spirit of God being poured out on young and old. Our children’s pastors remind us: “Your children do not have a junior Holy Spirit!” In other words, the Holy Spirit can work in as much power and conviction with a child than He can with an adult!
The Spirit God being poured out on all generations–both young and old–is a sign of revival:
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.” Acts 2:17
And this is being seen many places. I pray that this is the case in everyone fellowship of believers!
GT,
I’m glad you added this comment…I have been torn about the direction to go with this subject; on the one hand, this is obviously a real problem, and one worthy of recognizing.
However, I don’t want to create unnecessary conflict in the hearts of people toward their churches.
I, too, am part of an integrated, “multi-generational-visioned” church. We feel blessed to worship with other Christians who value children, and who respect the authority of father as the spirital head.
By the same token, we recognize the need for church governement and accountability. The difference is when the church abuses its power instead of following the biblical model of church government.
There are, thankfully, many churches rising up in our nation who are going back to the basic structure of family worship, and who are acknowledging the strength and authority of the family. Praise God for these churches!
And perhaps, when the entertainment-driven, program-obsessed church runs out of steam, they too will follow suit.
Please understand me…I am not criticizing churches who have programs or children’s ministries, etc. There are lots of discussions that could be had about those things, but that is not the purpose of this post.
I am merely drawing attention to, what I believe, is the wrong practice of forcing families to particpate in the peripheral activities of the church.
In my opinion, it is completely unbiblical for a pastor to establish extra programs that are found no where in Scripture, and then require his members to participate, against the father’s wishes.
But I don’t know the answer to solving what seems to be a larger problem than I even realized. How can we go forward, in love, to bring about the change that is needed? Withdrawing from the church may be a last resort, but I don’t see it as a “good” solution.
All I’ll say is that I am so glad that we have been blessed with a church that believes our children should be beside us as we worship. How else will our children learn to participate in worship unless they are there? Our children have always been with us and I could not/would not have it any other way.
WOW – I have never heard of children not being allowed in a church! Although our church has Sunday school (for all ages), it’s specifically held BETWEEN services so that children can attend church with their parents. It’s very much encouraged for families to attend worship together. There is a nursery avaiable but it’s not used very often (mostly for nursing infants or really crabby young toddlers, that sort of thing).
If I was told my children weren’t welcome in a church, I wouldn’t be back.
Oh — and I’m Lutheran. I grew up Lutheran also. Again, every Lutheran church I have personally attended, family worship is very much encouraged, and though there are other programs available, you are NOT required to sign up your children.
I feel bad for this family. It sounds like they are doing everything the right way.
Sorry for typos – 1-year-old keeps pushing buttonss on the keyboard!
Scary!
this may be shocking coming form me, but I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.
usurping the fathers authority……100%. its all about control, guilt, shame. looking good on the outside. blah blah blah….
my husband and i were told we were unfaithful to God and to the church by not being involved in more things, and not being present at the Wed, sunday school, sunday morning, and sunday evening sermon. i was told also that i could not help in nursery once a month..if i didnt attend 3 of those 4 a week. keep in mind my 4 kids were 4/8ths OF THAT NURSERY. Heck, i was only trying to help.
anyway, i agree…if dad says we aint going, we aint going. i have lost much faith in institutional christianity. they offer a lot of ‘programs’, but not a lot of real life living and issues. i foudn it a waste of my time to gavalant all my family there to hear things that arent edifying, but tearing me down. i do realize church isnt all about me and what *I* get from it, but i will not put myself under peoples authority, whcih they dont even possess in the first place. secondly, not many are willing to hear how off track and even poisonous churches have become, so ive figured mostly we are there to help one anorher……..support, come alongside. my servies were also judged becasue they didnt fit the bill of what leaders thought was truly edifying service. i hope they told that to the widows i used to visit, who were very lonely. that was my gift-and the ‘authorites’ wanted to alter or change what God gifted me in. their issue, not mine.
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