“When we walk through our lives with confidence that doesn’t make sense, peace that defies logic and joy that confounds the world, then our Lord can nod and say, “Well done. For I have not given you a spirit of fear, my child. Thank you for preaching to the world the power of My name.”
“…plead my case against an ungodly nation;…For You are the God of my strength;…Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Oh, send out your light and Your truth! Let them lead me;…My soul, hope in God; For I shall yet praise him, the help of my countenance and my God.” Psalm 43
Indescribable peace…that’s what the Lord has given me. And not only that, I have some news for you too.
I purposed early on in this election that I would try to avoid listening to Obama speak. I have repeatedly chosen to keep my eyes on God instead of Obama–I don’t mean that in a hyper-spiritual way…just that I have deliberately chosen to meditate on truth, keep my eyes and mind on God’s Word, and close my ears to the wicked.
As a result it has changed the way I feel about the outcome of this election. See, we don’t believe the Scriptures, really. Listen…
“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.”
In other words, you will become like the things you think about, look at, listen to, and meditate on.
Listen again…
“Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly…but his delight is in the law of the Lord AND IN HIS LAW HE MEDITATES DAY AND NIGHT. He shall be like a tree, planted by the rivers of water…”
Meditating in, “hanging out” in God’s Word brings LIFE.
We are what we think! We become what we ponder. And through that, we are either empowered with living breath to shine the light of Christ around, or we are “hidden under a bushel” by a cloak of fear and gloom.
History has been riddled with wicked men. But God forbid His own people weaken the power of His name now! We need to hang out in truth…so that we become truth for the world!
“Greater is He that is in you, than He that is in the world.”
Let us gather up some of the pluck of the writer of “Onward Christian Soldiers”
“Some trust in chariots and horses, but we will trust in the name of our God.”
Stop looking at what some man is threatening to do or not do. Get your eyes off of him and put them on the ONE who can grind Him to dust in a Word…Don’t forget who you are!!!
Stand for truth, set your face to Him like flint, and what is there than man can do to you?
Let’s show our children, our neighbors, our relatives that there is something behind the Christianity we claim.
“And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?”
When we walk through our lives with confidence that doesn’t make sense, peace that defies logic and joy that confounds the world, then our Lord can nod and say, “Well done. For I have not given you a spirit of fear, my child. Thank you for preaching to the world the power of My name.”
86 comments
You are right to put your eyes on Jesus. HE is our HOPE!! There is no other. tammy
Dear Kelly!
I have been reading your blog for a while now and finally I just have to tell you how much I appreciate you and the thoughts you share!. Your series on dating/courtship and the works!!
God bless your efforts. Keep up the great outpouring of truth!
Blessings,
Melissa
If you really put your eyes on Jesus you would have a very different attitude. No more judging your neighbour, no more disctimination – especially against your own gender, loving your neighbour, and I could go on and on. Talking about wicked leaders, I’m sure the Roman emperor about whom Jesus said ” Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” could be considered wicked, which Obama certainly is not. And yet, Jesus never criticized the emperor, he did not encourage the Jews to rebell agains the Roman occupation but simply said ” that sounds like separation of church and state to me! I’m a Christian, I’m against abortion and gay marriage, but I think that Obama has a much more Christian attitude towards his fellow men than many so called Christians which hide behind out-of-context Bible versets and propgate hate against everyone who doesn’t fit into their standards:muslims, liberals, republicans, public schools, the state women who don’t submit blindly to men, etc ( by the way, your patriarchal cult looks like husband/father =MAN worship instead of God worship to me.) To you, Obama is wicked because he is liberal, he is tolerant, he reaches out to everyone, not to a small segment of population deemed good or even godly, by their own standards. I’ve always thought that Sarah Palin was not qualified to be VP – not because she was a woman – but because she lacked experience. Still, I would have loved to see her become VP, just to see the reactions of the patriarchal movement. I have always thought that people like Calvin and Knox were wicked, with their heretical views and twisted way of interpreting Christianity. They were harsh, judgemental, hateful, totally lacking in love towards their neighbour and Christian compassion, tolerance and forgiveness. It’s painful to see that their hate ad fear propaganda stil flourishes.
Jesus is our hope; that is true. But President-elect Barack Obama is a brilliant, Christ-loving man, and if you listen to him, you might learn a thing or two.
Kelly, sweet sister, AMEN!!! In Daniel it says God sets up kings and puts them down. He is control. Your post so exquistly stated what my husband and I have been choosing to live by for the last so many months and even more so in the ones ahead. Thank you for hearing the spirit and sharing the HOPE that is the ONE, JESUS CHRIST!!!
Many blessings beloved,
Heather
Anon,
I’m sorry, I wasn’t going to answer this, but I must. You said,
( by the way, your patriarchal cult looks like husband/father =MAN worship instead of God worship to me.)
Give me evidence that I propogate a cult before you spew such hatred. I serve God. HE says, “Husbands and wives, dwell together in unity…husbands love you wives as Christ loved the church…wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife (as a LOVING, protective head) just as Christ is head of the church.
That’s the gospel I promote–the same one as did my Lord.
If you accuse me of teaching a cult, then you are calling Christianity a cult.
But don’t act as if you are a Christian and I’m in a cult.
Either you believe in the Bible and follow it’s doctrine, or YOU belong to a cult.
If you are not a Christian, forgive me for my firmness, you simply don’t know.
But if you are a Christian, I have an obligation to exhort you to truth, even if it’s strong.
“I think Obama may provide greater hope for America than McCain…hear me out.” “I purposed early on in this election that I would try to avoid listening to Obama speak.”
This were both taken from your posts. Maybe if you had listened to what Obama had said you wouldn’t have thought he would provide more hope for America than McCain and now wouldn’t have to be trying to find comfort.
This is a comment my husband made last night: “I think Obama winning may be a blessing in disguise. I think it will call Christians to band together and lean on Jesus, and the Republican party to go back to their conservative roots and look to a truly conservative candidate in 2012, not somebody like McCain.”
Was it something like this you were trying to say earlier, Kelly? If so, I agree with you.
There was some type of poll my husband was telling me about, I don’t remember the exact numbers but the vast majority of people think the Republican party is not conservative enough. I found that interesting.
I don’t always agree with you 100%, but I do find your blog very encouraging and it makes me think.
Have a blessed day! Lisa
Love this. Reminds me of a beautiful song we used to sing a lot in church:
“Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of the world grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace.”
Anon 1,
Since you didn’t finish my quote, that doesn’t make sense. Anon-Lisa is right…my point was that the “hope” would be found in Christians waking up out of their apathy.
I’m not “trying to find comfort”…I have remained in the same place through this entire election–not moved, and completely confident in God’s sovereignty.
I firmly believe that everyone has the right to worship as they choose. That’s a tenet that this country is based upon.
However, why do you feel you have the right to say that those who love each other are not allowed to do so? Do you really think anyone CHOOSES to be gay? Seriously? I’m a straight woman, but I do not judge lest I be judged. And if they want to get married – why not? What’s it to me? I see nothing in the bible that prohibits this, and by the way, my father and husband are pastors. We are certainly Christians.
“but I think that Obama has a much more Christian attitude towards his fellow men”
“But President-elect Barack Obama is a brilliant, Christ-loving man”
You’ve got to be kidding me? How in the world do you ladies figure that???!
What do you mean by “Christian attitude toward his fellow man”? Are you implying that forcing people to give their hard earned money to those who are less privileged? We do not need the government telling us who is worthy of charity and who is not. Charity is a personal conviction between and God and His people. And I do believe God fearing/loving people DO give. But in Scripture we are also told not to give to people under certain conditions. I’m just wondering if that is why you think he has more of a Christian attitude? You take away a man’s incentive and purpose to work and you’ll see our culture plummet even further and faster!
Would a “Christ loving” man push so hard for abortion? I just can’t see the connection!
I am not fearful of Obama, but it does sadden the amount of people that don’t really take God’s Word for what it says. Obama is what we need, obviously. The darker the times the lighter the Light is.
When I watched the the masses on election night so happy about Obama I thought about what it must have been like when God sealed up the door to the ark, after He called out His faithful. The masses continued to rejoice in their ignorance. They continued to make fun of and criticize Noah and his family. That is until the rain came.
IMO, Obama could not be as awful as we would naturally think. I dont agree with lot he is planning for, but then again ive never really agreed with any of them….except a few independents.
However, I am willing to give him a chance. without support, and a change given, and prayers made, we shouldnt expect much. people do listen. people do change. if i didnt believe THAT, there would certainly be no hope for me, myself. I have been bhumbled before, and I try to remain open today as to what this man could do with his term. it seems much better to be poisitive, and hopeful, instead of being negative and already supposing we could ‘write the script’. Because I do focus on Jesus, I do have hope, and i try to live, though sometimes and often fail miserably, that i DONT know everything.
until people see the truth about themselves, and are allowed to, without dshame, express that, they will never subscribe to any truth. their conscience will constantly prod them to be truthful about who they are, where they are at, etc, in order for them to submit fully to a higher truth and purpose. i see many christians struggling through and saying all the right things, but have so much pain and dysfunction that they yet have not dealt with…and dont even want to go there….i certainly havent arrived, but i have spent the last few years digging around deep, and dealing with my past, and my present. anyway, this is just my opinion, the way i see and understand it.
Wow, nothing like seeing good christian harmony with anonymous (with whom I agree, of course) and the various posters all accusing each other of being bad christians! Makes me realize that when I am offended as a jew and an atheist at Kelly’s distaste for everyone outside her family I’m not alone. She and her posters don’t like anyone very much. Look at the post just above mine? Rejoicing in the thought that everyone but the saved will drown in the next flood? Sickening, but not surprising. The republican party and the idolatrous christian right community are going to go down in a blaze of recriminations and accusations that will simply solidify the country’s rejection of their really hate filled manifestos. Everyone who voted for obama is a socialist and a thief and wicked and an atheist? You have only the most tenuous grasp of reality, let alone of religion, if you think that. Look at the polls. Plenty of religious people voted for Obama. Plenty of believing Christians. Plenty of white people. Plenty of straight people. Plenty of debt free people. Plenty of “conservative” people and even plenty of republicans. All that is left for you now is to stand on the sidelines throwing people overboard as you determine that more and more people are unworthy of your love, and your g-d’s love. Its going to get mighty lonely in that lifeboat.
aimai
aimai,
I allow disagreement and opposition on this blog. I don’t allow slanderous, hateful comments. Furthermore, if you address other comment, make sure they are accurate.
“Look at the post just above mine? Rejoicing in the thought that everyone but the saved will drown in the next flood?”
It’s really foolish to misrepresent what is written for all to see.
She said nothing about “rejoicing” in destruction???
If you can’t be less caustic, I’ll block you from commenting. Not a threat, just my choice for how the blog operates.
Be fair, be honest, and don’t be mean. Not too much to ask, I think.
You’re now choosing who should get charity? You’re offended that your hard-earned money should go to the less fortunate? You’re upset at the idea of the unborn not being born but behind the idea that soldiers are dying in Iraq as a result of a Republican government? Interesting. And this is in the name of Jesus?
Hmm. I don’t think he would be quite so condemning or intolerant. Do you?
Let no man cast the first stone. You are casting quite a few here. How Christian of you to condemn those who believe differently. Are we not all His children?
As Obama said, he is YOUR president too.
i think it is important for us all to remember, we all rejoiced in our ignorance. we might be wise to view everyone in this world as ourselves…in need of grace, and mercy. i didnt have as much to do with my choice for salvation, as God did….i mean, i did, but i didnt.
Kelly,
You have put what I have been feeling to words. My peace during this chaotic time comes from the Prince of Peace, not from anything this world has to offer!
Thank you for your wise words today.
Grace & peace!
Yvonne
Couple of things: it’s interesting that in a post meant to encourage believers to cling to the truth of God’s word, the subject still turned back to Pres.-elect Obama. It simply proves the power of what you were trying to get across in the first place. I needed this, so I thank you. I admit that my heart had a heaviness to it ever since it became clear what direction we were headed in.
We the church need to refocus on what’s eternal and strive to win others to the only hope any of us have, Jesus Christ.
I was about to get drawn in to the Obama/gay/election discussion, but why bother? I’d much rather focus on what you’ve written here. And I am discovering that debating people who disagree on the fundamental infallability of the Scripture is an exercise in futility. Again, thank you Kelly. You have encouraged me in ways you’ll probably never know this side of heaven. I’ll certainly look you up when we get there to tell you.
Kelly,
Caustic? is that another anti christian crime?
I was responding to this generous, Christian, observation but by the time I posted there were several other comments in between mine and that one:
“When I watched the the masses on election night so happy about Obama I thought about what it must have been like when God sealed up the door to the ark, after He called out His faithful. The masses continued to rejoice in their ignorance. They continued to make fun of and criticize Noah and his family. That is until the rain came.”
I interpreted that as something pretty dire–rejoicing in advance at the suffering of others because the poster believes that they will suffer (while she will not) for failing to interpret g-d’s will as she would.
But to the other issues you raised in your admonition to me. Of course you are perfectly free to ban me from your site. And I sort of think you should because its clear that when you talk about bearing witness to the world, showing the rest of us what true christianity is, etc..etc…etc… you really don’t mean that. Because first you spend much of your time trying to determine who is christian enough to benefit from your witness, and the rest of the time excoriating other people as not christian enough to matter, or as damned or something.
But until you ban me I will continue to engage with you because I read you as a citizen and a parent in this wonderful country, and I believe not that everyone can be saved but that we all have something to offer to each other.
Look, I love your blog, actually, because *as a mother* much of your advice resonates for me. Where we part company is on our notion of *citizenship* and the proper role of personal, idiosyncratic religious beliefs in the public sphere. I would no more exhort you to follow my religion, or lack therof, in your daily life than I think you should push your interpretations on the rest of us in the public sphere. Not just because I don’t like your interpretations–as I argued below your interpretation of the role of taxes (in which you identify them with charity) is simply incorrect. Taxes are the way we pay our debts, the debts we incur collectively as a people. Its.Not.Forced.Charity. Its not charity at all. One way to grasp this is that paying taxes doesn’t replace charity to your church. Another way to grasp it is that there are a lot of different kinds of taxes because we belong to overlapping sets of communities and we benefit from, and contribute to, each community according to democratic principles. We elect representatives who speak for us at the federal level and we pay federal taxes for federal agreements and national defence. You really wouldn’t be helped much if we all stopped paying those taxes because there is a net wealth transfer there from high income/high education/high atheist and liberal states like my own to low income/low education/ poor states like the red states.
Lost in all this talk about taxes is that taxes pay for stuff that we all use. Lets talk about the income tax. In states without it property taxes go up because the cities and towns simply have to pay for police, fire, etc… that they require. No charity there. What about sales tax? Well, states levy these and they fall disproportionatly on poor people (since the share of their wealth that they use to buy necessities is much higher than a rich persons). Those taxes fund lots of things, decided by states themselves. If you don’t like it, vote against it. But its not socialism. Its bill paying.
What about FICA, social security, or medicare? Again, these are taxes that are levied on taxable income by *popular agreement*. If you don’t like it, move to another country and fund your own retirement and your elderly parents health care. Nothing could be simpler. You can opt out. But the truth is the american people don’t want to opt out. That’s not because they are lazy or immoral. The taxes people pay *come back to them* in the form of services they want. The idea that there are lots of people who pay no taxes is a fantasy. Everyone pays taxes in some way. And as long as the government is well administered by rational civil servants and not ideologues who detest democratic institutions we stand a very good chance of getting good value for our money. I’m all for safe food and food inspectors, safe workplaces and work place inspections, health care for all workers so they don’t give me hepatitis when I eat out, and stuff like that. Again, if you want a poisoned food supply, sick neighbors, and elderly people starving on the street I can recommend lots of countries where that is the norm. Those people are fighting to move into low tax high service countries like the US.
But I think you are free, and should be free, to continue to vote as you please and preach as you please to your readers. I just don’t think people like you should be free to force your views on the rest of us without going through a democratic process and like most of the rest of america I’m rejoicing today that the democratic process rejected your beliefs, your narrow interpretation of who is saved and who isn’t, who is righteous and who isn’t, and who pays and who doesn’t for the wars your party started.
We have a fundamental difference of opinion–and of course you are free to ban me if you like–over the role g-d plays in the universe and we especially have a difference over which of the two of us is closer to god, or knows g-d’s will, or is loved by g-d. I, for example, would never arrogate to myself the right to tell you that you are wrong, or that you need my prayers, or that g-d doesn’t love you, or that you are not saved. While you take it upon yourself to instruct all and sundry as to g-d’s will. That’s a level of self love and personal idolatry that I think of as really odd in a professed christian. Even odder in an ordinary person of any faith. But if it comports with your sense of christian witness to ban me, or to continue to lecture me (and some other christians) about how you are the only person who knows g-d’s heart and will please go ahead. You were right in the post upon which we are commenting. You have a choice as to which kind of witness to g-d’s word you want to be. If you want to be the kind of christian who rick warren says is “more known for what you are against” than for what you are for please feel free.
aimai
aimai,
Please give me specific support from things I have said for your accusations…
“Because first you spend much of your time trying to determine who is christian enough to benefit from your witness, and the rest of the time excoriating other people as not christian enough to matter, or as damned or something.”
This makes no sense to me–show me what I have said that supports this statement.
I do not determine what God’s will is for people, He does. Yes, Christianity is “narrow”. The Bible I believe says so. The Jesus I serve was killed for his narrow-mindedness, and I suffer with Him in that.
He promised that we would be hated, just as He was. But understand…it is not ME who determined “the right way”…”I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.”
Lashing out at me is to lash out at God. I am a person saved by God’s grace, with NO presumption that I am better, or more righteous than anyone else. My righteousness comes from Christ alone.
I do pray (even if you don’t believe it’s sincere) that God would call you out for His own. I pray your eyes would be opened to the Redeeming love His mercy affords.
I pray you will understand I’m not some evil, hateful person you have painted me to be.
I write about the things I do ONLY because I care about others, and like a bird released from bondage, desire to share that life-giving freedom with those around me.
If you fault me for that, there is nothing more.
I will not be reponding from this point on…I agree with Terry, that to debate from a fundamentally different belief system is a waste of time.
Terry,
big smiles…yes, you are right…I appreciate your warmth and well-spoken truth.
Aimai,
How can you possibly seperate Kelly’s parenting advice from her Christian worldview? They are completely entwined and inseperable.
You say this, “I love your blog, actually, because *as a mother* much of your advice resonates for me.” And then go on to rip apart facets of Kelly’s Christian faith and Scriptural worldview that specifically instruct and decide how she will parent.
Maybe you are not offended by Kelly, but rather by Christ and His word, in which case—take it up with Him. He will answer you.
Kelly,
Of course, I don’t agree that jesus was “killed because he was narrowminded” and I have to tell you that’s a pretty strained interpretation of any christian theology. Have you read a lot of christian theology? Because I have. But in any event your attitude towards people you think have a “different world view” and who are not worth engaging with is so utterly different from Jesus’s love for everyone and willingness to sacrifice for everyone that I’m almost left with my mouth hanging open in shock.
Its weird, and almost pathetic really, that you continually harp on some of the most isolated and divisive parts of the new and old testament and completely miss the totality of what jesus had to offer to us all. I’m not a believer, and I come out of the jewish tradition, but even I know better than to think the narrowminded jesus who died for just a few, perfected, christians such as yourself is a figment of your imagination. In my father’s house there are many mansions. I’m willing to bet my immortal soul that I’ll see you in the afterlife if there is one. But I’m pretty sure you wont’ see me because heaven is a place where you are given what you expect and you are expecting it to be a strange, lonely, tiny place with very few people.
aimai
Oh, and sara, I said what I did about Kelly’s moterhing because the funny thing is that most of her mothering is just sheer commonsense. Her mothering is really no different from mine or that of the other mothers I know. We all do and say almost the same things except where she shoves off all of her advice and morality onto g-d I simply say “because its the right thing to do” or “because we love one another” or “because it is just.” Kelly’s blindspot, and yours, is to think that the parts of you that are uniquely loving or good are the parts that are specially, narrowly, christian. Actually I’d say those are the parts that are generously, totally, normally, maternal and they are not isolated in the christian community but pretty widely shared. Its like you tell your children to brush their teeth because Jesus loves them and I tell them to brush their teeth so they don’t get cavities and you think one is the “moral” position adn the other is immoral. I’d say we both love our children and want them to have strong and healthy teeth.
aimai
Aimai,
By no means would I rejoice in someone suffering. That is NOT what I said. I said “they” the ones that were outside the ark, “rejoiced in their ignorance”.
Their ignorance of living a life their way and not God’s. Does that mean I live life perfectly? Not at all, I am saved by grace alone. But I do strive to honor Him with obedience.
You say that we are judgmental. lol…
It is OK to call sin sin. It is OK to proclaim truth. There is a standard and it is God’s word.
I don’t believe Kelly will be moving to another country, nor will I. This county is worth fighting for, worth reforming it to what it was meant to be. And that begins with us taking responsibility for our children and their education, our health care, etc… It will come with reforming our marriages and homes, our communities and our churches.
Also, Kelly is not “pushing” anything on anyone… lol… she is here encouraging wives and mothers to love their husbands and their children. She encourages us to honor the Lord with our lives and fight the lies of feminism and our anti-God culture. She is not visiting other blogs she disagrees with. No one is forced to come here. So if it is not for you…well then, maybe a more agreeable blog would brighten your day. :o)
One last thing:
“Lashing out at me is to lash out at God” ???
That’s idolatry, or self love, pride or obsession, or something. And even you ought to be able to see that.
aimai
Aimai,
It’s your blindspot (and all of ours as a species) to think that anything loving and good period comes from anywhere other than God.
Sure, we tell our kids to brush so they won’t get cavities. Anything good, including common sense, comes from God.
Anything remotely good, loving, maternal, or lovely about me come straight from Christ. This is a key part of the gospel. We are all sinners who fall short of righteousness, but through Christ’s blood shed for us on the cross, we can have be redeemed through Him. Not because of our own merits—but because of HIS. Not our own goodness—Christ’s goodness.
This is the reason Christ came to the world-to save us sinners from our sin, and the eternal punishment that we all deserve as a result.
It’s not a Biblical or Scriptural view to say that we have some sort of inherent goodness–that’s humanism.
And, to be redundant, anything good in this world at all—including common sense parenting, comes straight from God.
James 1:17 “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”
Jesus was killed by the Romans as many many others were killed by the Romans, but not because of “narrow-mindedness.” (Nope, it was not the Jews 🙂 He was crucified because that was the method that the Romans used at the time, and he was crucified not for his beliefs but for his political power.
Now if you believe in him as God, I am awed. It’s wonderful. I’m awed by faith of any kind – be it Jewish, Muslim or Christian. That said, I do not think you can come at anything via Scripture as the “Word of God.” It is interpretation not fact. It’s an important difference. I support your right to your beliefs, but they are BELIEFS. What if I, as a Jew, insisted that MY way and MY religion was the only true path? Why, I believe it! Isn’t that good enough for you? 😉 No? Why not? It’s MY word of God.
Now on to President Elect Obama. He has said that HE HIMSELF is not in favor of abortion or gay marriage. However (and listen up here ladies) he has also said that he cannot and will not legislate his beliefs. Why? Because our forefathers sought to separate Church and State. They knew that to legislate beliefs is the worst way to govern.
I certainly do not think you are evil, and I read your blog because I think it is EXTREMELY important to hear the perspectives of others. I hope you will not shut out the words of Obama, who is trying to be a unifier during these hard times. I hope you will not shut out my words.
In response to your post Kelly, AMEN!
Kelly, I just wanted to thank you for speaking the truth so clearly. I have read your blog for some time although I think I have only commented once or twice. I’m sorry there are people out there that dont understand your heart. It is very evident to me! Thank you for being a Titus 2 woman that I know isnt just saying what she feels but lining it up with the Word first.
Blessings to you, Miranda
Anon–(could you anons at least make up a name to keep you separate?)
Very few understand (or have taken the time to study the facts) behind the statement “separation of church and state”.
Read here: http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html
As far as which religion is the right one, it’s true, there is no proof I can give, except the witness of God’s spirit in my soul–something I can’t share with you. I can attest that Scripture teaches “the heavens decalare the glory of God…so that they are without excuse”. But that doesn’t prove much to someone who doesn’t want to believe. That’s why it’s called faith.
If you are right, then there is nothing for you to fear. But if you are wrong?
Kelly:
I sent you an email in response to this post. I hope that you get it. Let me know either way. Oh, don’t worry. The response is NOT hostile (smiles).
Thanks for your response. First – that video on church and state is from a Creationist site. Uh, no not so much. 🙂 You can interpret and interpret but the Supreme Court has always decided that separation is law. Moreover, not every citizen of this country is Christian, and none should be ruled by a single belief system.
Secondly, and most important – yes, you cannot prove your beliefs. Yes, they are faith. But this is all the more reason that I do not want your beliefs to form MY laws or shape MY country. You can understand that, can’t you?
And as to your last point – I fear nothing about the afterlife. I am a very good and kind person. I try to do the right and moral thing. If there is a God and he excludes me, then he is not a God I would worship anyway. My God does not send anyone to burning fires forever. Why would a loving God do such a thing?
Best to you,
Anon #2 🙂
Lady Sophia,
I didn’t get it, hmmm…akcrawford5@hotmail.com
Anon #2,
Why would He do that? Because His all consuming love demands that He is just. Because He created the universe and his holines and omniscience requires it.
He asks only one thing of us to escape what we deserve…our complete trust in His ability to save…to acknowledge that He is the only God…to claim his Son’s blood for our redemption.
I want belief in God to shape the country because I believe He created the world and everything in it. And as such, only He knows the what is best for His created universe.
Lady Sophia,
I found it–it was in my junk box.
We also need to pray for the salvation of our new President and all his family members. Despite his protestations to the contrary, Barack Obama is not a Christian, nor has he ever been. I can say that with confidence because he is a member of the most liberal Christian denomination, the United Church of Christ. This is a church that denies the divinity of Jesus and denies His statement in John 14:6 that He is the only way to God. No one can be saved apart from Jesus, and no one can be saved by putting their faith in a false Jesus.
Hey mom!
I LOVE this post!!! BTW I tag you!
His “all consuming love” demands that I burn in a pit of fire because while I believe in His existence I do not believe it in that particular form? What would you call a parent that seared a child with a hot iron simply for being a child? I would call that abusive.
That kind of sentiment led to the Inquisition I believe. Would you like to burn us at the stake so that we can be “saved?” 🙂 I know you wouldn’t. You seem like a very nice woman.
As to the idea that God created all and should be in charge of the country, well, once again I’d like PROOF that you are speaking for him! Once again, I have only your faith – until you furnish me with proof, I can’t say it is “God” who decides, or YOU. You can see the difficulty here, can’t you?
A very “Christian” president named George Bush is arguably the worst in history – he guided us to a war that has killed THOUSANDS of innocent victims. Are they not important because they are muslims? They are children. They are important to me.
If you value life as much as you claim – being Pro-Life of course – than maybe you’ll allow the Non Christian (who attends church every Sunday) a shot at getting us out of Iraq and saving some lives. After all, these are people who are already born.
Thank you for your graciousness in response.
No one has the right to say who is a Christian and who is not. I am a liberal, I believe in gay rights/abortion rights, I believe in peace instead of war, and I believe we should work hard to protect our environment. (my husband thinks the exact same way) I’ve also been a Christian since I was a young child, grew up in a wonderful “conservative” Christian home and church. But that’s not what counts (how I grew up). What counts is that I know I’m saved in my heart. For you to say Obama isn’t a Christian is ignorant. You can’t see into his heart. And yes I voted for him.
Hi Kelly,
I read your blog all the time and today you really hit one out of the park. Well said Sister, thank you for sewing a seed of peace in my heart and of flint in my spirit. WE ARE GOD’S WHAT CAN MAN DO TO US!
Many Blessings Sister, don’t let those who argue with you get you down.
Ace
I try really hard not to get into discussions like this because I tend to get alittle too heated. 😉
BUT….as far as Iraq, my brother has served our country. He is 22 years old, newly married and was in Iraq for 15 months. He signed up for the Army. He made that decision. He knew there was a chance he would go to war. That innocent child does not get a choice or a chance at all. It is sad that so many have died in this war but to say they are any more important than an innocent child is wrong.
Let me clarify: I meant Iraqi lives are being lost. Innocent Iraqi children who did not ask for their country to be a battlefield.
Shouldn’t we give them a chance to live by not bombing them? Aren’t they important?
Kelly:
I tried to send the email again. The previous one I sent was sent back to me in my mailbox, sigh. Let me know what happens.
Innocent Iraqi children? Tell me how many is that exactly?
American babies being killed every day by abortion: 4000.
Tell me, is it our government’s job to be defending the lives of a foreign country? Or is it the responsibility of our Government to protect the lives of American citizens no matter how small?
Just a thought.
Olivia
Actually, the vast majority of Iraqi deaths have been caused by “insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence”, not U.S. soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq_casualties
Oh okay. Yes, you’re right. Why should we care about the fact that Iraqi children are dying? Or you know, Iraqi people in general? Seriously? Should even one child die from a bomb if WE are dropping the bombs? Do you imagine that those mothers do not love their children as you love yours? I assure you that they do. I have a close friend from Iraq who lost four children to “friendly fire.”
“Tell me, is it our government’s job to be defending the lives of a foreign country?”
My, now that’s a Christian attitude! I’m sure Jesus thought to himself, “Hmm, lemme see. Are those poor innocents within the artificial boundaries of my country?”
But here’s the thing. YOU elected a “Christian” president who decided that dropping bombs on innocent people was perfectly rational because “God told him” the right things to do. So Olivia, this isn’t about either/or – protecting the lives of others while we “forget” about abortion here. Nope, we strode in and messed up a country because God told W Bush.
You can see how I’m not a big fan of that method. *Smile*
Let me say a couple of words about abortion. They are always going to happen. There will always be women who choose not to bear a child – whether because they were raped, abused, impoverished, incapable – the reasons are not simple. They will either take a hanger to themselves or seek out a safe and legal abortion. I vote to keep it safe and legal so that 14 year old girls do not die from dirty knitting needles.
Are you prepared to raise every unwanted child of a crack addicted mother? No. I didn’t think so.
did I just read this right? “Get your eyes off of him and put them on the ONE who can grind Him to dust in a Word” are you talking about Barack Obama being ground to dust? Do you really wish for that? I’m a lefty liberal and with all my criticism of GW Bush, I never once wished him to be killed. You are so full of intolerance and hate, and trying to mask that in biblical rhetoric doesn’t hide it from any sane person.
Bazu,
LOL! Of course I don’t wish him to be killed! (For you guys to be so “intelligent”, I gotta wonder sometimes!) That phrase implies only that it’s ridiculous to be scared of a mere human, whose very life is held up by the God who created him.
In other words, Obama (just like me and you) is small in power compared to God, and so my fear shouldn’t be with a man.
Quit tearing everything I say to shreds if you want to post here.
I’m frankly tired of it.
Anon–regarding abortion,
I’m apalled at the reasoning pro-death people give of legal abortions, and how it’s a good thing because it saves women’s lives (kill a life to save one…hmmm, that’s fair.)
With that logic, if an armed thief comes to your house and take your children and kill you, you should probably just let him. I mean, there will always be theft and murder, right? This way, it will make it easy for the theif and no more unnessary lives will be lost.
How about a dose of responsibility…if I try to kill a person (with a coat hanger or whatever else), and I die, that’s a pretty fair outcome.
And yes, there are enough people who love children to adopt unwanted babies, if the mother is not able or willing to care for it.
War, as awful as it is, WAS allowed and even commanded sometimes in Scripture. So as a Christian, I know that it is sometimes necessary and therefore different than the willful killing of babies.
Kelly, I just want to say I love your blog and completely understand what you have said, and the heart with which you say it. This post meant a great deal to me, as I have been on the verge of tears every time I thought of how our country has turned away from God. I needed your words intensely, and pray that God would bless you mightily for having the wherewithal to post, regardless of naysayers-or those that just truly don’t understand. Thank you sister!
AnneMarie
Can’t we all just get along and agree that 1) the universe is much, much older than six thousand years, and 2) that humans did not coexist with dinosaurs. That’s not too much to ask is it. 😉
Wow, this conversation is hard. God say *HE SO LOVED THE WORLD, That HE sacrificed HIS SON, who ever would believe in him shall not parish, but have everlasting life*. We can NEVER be good enough to pass Holy Judgement. That is why blood is required. Jesus blood that is. The new covenent. Like the passover blood on the door frames. Dear Ladies, we could never be righteous enough. Grace is what covers us all beautifullly and allows ALL to come to Jesus. We as Christians (PLEASE HEAR) are better than NO ONE. And we have hearts (hopefully) for all people lost and found alike. Please understand WE LOVE GOD for what He has done for us, ONLY because HE first loved us. Out of our love for Him (and it is imperfect ,because we all are) we WANT to obey Him. In HIS Word Jesus says we fulfull all the Law and the Proffits by 2 things ,First loving God with ALL that we have (however imperfectly) and loving our neighbor as ourselves (and it will be imperfectly, because no one can love perfectly). That’s it! He gives us other *commands* to help us NOT harm us. We try to obey out of our love for Him. We are only human and often times fail, please know we are striving to do our best ,but *all fall short*.
I do not agree 100% with Kelly or anyone else for that matter on every single thing. She is still a sister in Christ. I think her heart wants good things. I think she is passionate. I believe she does not want to intentionaly hurt or offend anyone. We are imperfect people–please allow Christians the Grace to be imperfect. We have not *arrived* in anyway shape or form. Except to the foot of the cross for mercy and love (which i never had, or knew until i came to know Jesus) and precious, covering Grace.
This is Kelly’s blog, she can not hide her faith, and it is her perogitive to share what is on her heart. I do not see her pushing anything on those who do not want it. It is our own choice to visit here.
May the Lord Bless you ALL–tammy
i think you should all forget this discussion and come visit my blog. diversion….it can be a good thing. harharhar….
Oh, good. You ARE going to adopt all those children no one wants so they spend their childhood in foster homes. More than 100,000 children in the United States are in foster care waiting for permanent families. Hundreds of thousands of children around the world are living in orphanages. Those are facts. I hope you have a big house, LOL.
You ARE going provide enough resources to feed everyone in the world plus running your SUV!
So God says war is okay and that kind of death works for you? I’m…sort of appalled by the way you reason that one out. One kind of death – fine. What happened to God’s love touches everyone?
(For you guys to be so “intelligent”, I gotta wonder sometimes!)”
This is rather insulting. Who is claiming to be more intelligent than anyone? Certainly I’m not, and I have post-graduate degrees.
You can call me “Pro-Death” all you want, I will not call names back. You see, I’m not a Christian, and yet I believe that you are allowed to disagree with me. 🙂
Anon,
If there is a “problem” (for example, as you see it, unwanted babies), the solution is NEVER to just get rid of the people. Anymore than it would be OK for me to kill my sick child so he wouldn’t suffer anymore,(that is one solution) or my uncle because he is lonely and depressed. The logic of this argument is so grossly wrong, it’s hard for me to fathom that humans with brains and consciences actually support it.
Mother Teresa witnessed unbelievable poverty in India, and maintained that every child was precious, and not only needed to be preserved, but that preventing children was not the answer to hunger and poverty. Never has been, never will be. (If it was a solution, then why is poverty, world hunger and thousands of orphans STILL so rampant? Shouldn’t the legality of abortion put a stop to it all?)
AND, even if abortion seemed to solve some of these problems, committing a crime against life doesn’t justify it! This is so obvious I’m astounded.
I didn’t call you “pro-death” as an insult, by the way. If you are for killing innocent life, that is not “for choice”, that is “for death”, because you have robbed one human of his choice. (It’s a fact, as you put it.) Funny how we hate to have the truth unveiled for us. To be OK with killing a baby works for you, only if no one says it out loud.
Anon,
One more thing..my family has kept a house full of foster children since I was a little girl.
Two of them became my sisters. I’m no stranger to unwanted children. Ask them if they wish someone had just killed them.
I’ve been to many different services of many different faiths, including Ukrainian Orthodox Christian, Episcopalian, Catholic, Buddhist, Lutheran, Protestant, Islamic, Christian Fundamentalist (mega-church), Jewish, and Baptist.
The lessons I learned were far more similar than not.
The lesson is LOVE.
We will soon have a president (Barack Obama) who speaks of love and hope and resonates with so many people and I believe that God speaks through him, just as God speaks through children and mountains and even sometimes through Kelly here. 🙂
The only service I attended that spoke of hatred was a mega church near Dallas, Texas (where I have family). It was frightening and sad, especially since so many other religions work with hope and peace.
I pray for this country and for President-elect Barack Obama just as I pray for Iraq, just as I pray for Tibet, just as I pray for everyone equally: not to be like me, but to be free and free of suffering.
There is a lesson in humility, here. Kelly, even if you believe with all of your heart and soul that you speak the word of God, it does not hurt to stop and question and think every once in a while.
Love of all.
Good bye, amaai,
I’m not angry, you are. I’m not biggoted, or hateful or any other accusation. “My Jesus” is the one I’ve taken from Scripture–the loving One, the holy One, the just One. His attributes cannot be separated.
I did not say the unsaved will be punished–He did. I don’t make the rules, He does.
At at judgement, we will either receive a “well done”, or a “depart from me”. I can’t think of a more loving thing to do than to try, while I’m here, to spare someone from the latter.
And something I’ve been confused about this whole discussion…who said I voted for a war? Or for a Republican? Or that I was in favor of war?
I didn’t vote for McCain…or for Bush.
Your seething anger is unparalleled to anything I’ve ever seen. I am so sorry. I’m not writing in anger. I know you don’t know me, and so I can’t take your attacks and misrepresentations personally.
I wish you could know the peace and joy and love that comes from my Heavenly Father. I pray you could know Him.
I guess where we part company is that I don’t think that any reading of the bible, yours or mine, gives one person the right to arrogate to themselves certainty as to who “knows” god and who doesn’t. You *don’t* know that I don’t know g-d just as truly as you do. You can’t. Because even *I* can’t know that. Just as you can *believe* you know g-d’s intentions, towards me or you or anyone else, but you can’t *know* it until after death.
Your posts on your certainity always remind me of this old viking joke. Two vikings are arguing about whether there is life after death. One says to the other “look, cut off my head and if there’s something afterwards I’ll stick this pin in the wood of the table.” So his friend obligingly cuts off his head but the pin drops from his fingers and rolls away. The question for the remaining vikings is: does this prove that there is or is not life after death? The answer is, of course, that it doesn’t prove anything one way or another except that there is no control of your fingers after death.
There’s a difference between knowledge and belief, even in christian theology. I’m not angry with you so much as I am, well, disgusted frankly. I’m disgusted because I prize true, honest, attempts at knowledge about both g-d and about society and you prefer to float in a world of cheap sentiment and self congratulation. Because with no justification but a cheap and incoherent reading of american social mores back into the jewish and early jewish/christian bible you attack the christianity of Barack Obama and his family. Because you consistently confuse a childishly ill informed set of ideas about modern capitalism with christian ethical thought on work and charity, because you don’t grasp the difference between taxes and charity and because you attribute all this confusion to an authentic reading of texts you don’t have the slightest respect for.
But I know that saying that to you is like trying to describe a smell with color terms, or trying to describe colors to a blind woman.
As some of your other, anonymous, christian posters have pointed out the world is full of loving, giving, thoughtful people of all races and creeds and nations. You, apparently, believe that g-d is going to look at all those people who don’t follow your narrow interpretation of scripture and say “depart from me.” I’m sure you believe that but you do know, don’t you, that that is not a universal interpretation of the christian scriptures, don’t you? I mean, you do grasp that there are actual christian communities all over the world that don’t believe that–episcopalians, catholics, other protestant groups, hell even the southern baptists before they got taken over by the nutcases, the quakers? the shakers?. Christian history extends back 2000 years and christian philosophy almost as long. The question of exactly what g-d meant in the new testament, or in christian interpretation of the jewish texts, is a very open question for most educated believing christians. What makes your narrow reading the correct one? I challenge you on that not because I think you’ve got g-d’s ear but because I think you don’t have a clue as to what g-d wants. And plenty of believing christians would agree with me on that one.
Pride is a sin, btw, and quite a grievous one in your theology. HOw on earth do you square that with your prideful certainty that your version of g-d is the only valid one? Or even that you have satisfied your angry g-d with all your submission?
aimai
You know, it’s interesting that terrorists who blow themselves up do so because they too fervently believe that they alone hear the word and meaning of God.
That’s something to think about. 🙂
As Gandhi once said, “I’d be a Christian but for the Christians.” Heh. Of course what did he know? He is clearly burning in the everlasting fires of Hell…
Have a great day!
aimai,
“your prideful certainty”…you are certain that there is no certainty…does that make you full of pride?
If there is no absolute truth, then there is nothing but self-interpretation, and why would we even read the Bible?
I’ve already admitted that Christianity, according to the Bible, is narrow. Jesus said himself, “Narrow is the way that leads to life, and FEW there be that finds it.”
If I believe what the Bible says, and the Bible says that those who put their faith in Christ will be eternally rewarded, and those who do not will be eternally damned, what part of that is my own interpretation? It is written in black and white.
One either believes it, or he does not. There is no interpretation. A child could understand.
Now you don’t have to believe that what the Bible says is true. But I leave you with a thought…
If I am wrong, I’ve only gained a life lived in absolute peace and joy (I’m confused about all your accusations of my “hatefulness”). If you are wrong…yikes.
And a question…has all this self-searching, denial of absolute truth brought you joy? Peace? What has it brought you?
Kelly,
I’m not worried about eternal damnation, and like many ethical and moral people the world over I would never base my moral beliefs or actions on a threat or a reward. This really isn’t anything new. Other christians, from other christian communities, will make the exact same argument I make here. I don’t think you are wasting your life at all, whether there is or isn’t a g-d, because (according to you) you are doing what makes you happy. But so am I. Even more to the point, I do what I do ethically and morally because I believe justice, compassion, honesty, and generosity are important in and of themselves not because I will be “punished” or “rewarded” for my behavior after death.
And if at the end of my life I discover that there’s a lake of burning hellfire I’ll certainly be very surprised. But I won’t change my opinion of the way I lived my life. Because to me, and indeed to a great many other people in this world, acting out of fear of punishment isn’t a moral act at all. Its just a fear of punishment. People who act out of fear–fear of death, fear of punishment, fear of social opprobrium can sometimes be scared into acting well. But they are equally likely to be scared into acting badly. The fear of the big daddy who strikes and consoles you simultaneously, who beats you for your own good, is rather typical of children in abusive relationships and in the real world such abusive relationships (always for the child’s own good) are not particularly healthy. We see this in our own child rearing, don’t we? If we threaten or bribe a child to do as we wish, instead of reasoning with him, we may get compliance from him at the present time but when we aren’t looking he is quite likely to do as he wishes and do what we think is wrong.
Its a common observation by (some) religious people that there could simply be neither ethics nor morals without scripture but of course this is nonsense. A quick glance at the actual world around us reveals that some of the worst scoundrels preach scripture while some of the most moral people don’t bother. Whether you attribute that to the existence of a supreme being or not your own attitude towards other christians reveals that you are fairly determined to believe that *lots of people* are both christians and scriptural readers on a daily basis but somehow they fail to grasp what you grasp from it and aren’t saved. So isn’t it equally likely that someone, some pagan person, some person living prior to the time of christ, could have no contact with scripture as you know it (and after all the modern christian bible is only a small portion of the testament and the gospels available in the first century before the council of Nicea) and yet know g-d and be saved?
The funny thing, to me, is just how ignorant you are of your own tradition–the documents, thinkers, and philosophies that have been the glory of christianity for 2000 years. Its totally, narrowly, american in its arrogance and its pathetic ignorance. And you have the nerve to assert that *you* are more loved by g-d and more saved than another person?
I realize we are talking past each other. The very words we use mean such different things that we don’t really share a common language. For you the assertion that another person is immoral, ignorant, unchristian, and unsaved is a form of christian “love”, lecturing is “instructing,” failure to judge others is a form of neglect. I get that. That kind of thing has a pretty long history in isolated christian sects. Its pretty much what leads people to stone their neighbors, or burn them in inquisitions, while congratulating themselves on their greater humanity. Meanwhile I love argument and come from a religious tradition in which we “wrestle with g-d” and sometimes win. We have a tradition of midrash in which we insert ourselves and our stories directly into biblical thought and analysis. In a famous midrash the rabbis are sitting around arguing a point of talmudic interpretation and g-d intervenes on behalf of one rabbi and the others turn and admonish him as to the true meaning of the text. They essentially tell g-d to shut up, they know better than he how to interpret the text. And g-d laughs and says “my children have bested me.”
I totally get where you are coming from. Its from the middle of a narrow, isolated, authoritarian world in which people are always being led astray by the devil or their own desires, and the only thing keeping them on the straight and narrow is fear of death, and hope for the ressurection. Its just not the world I come from. And its not a g-d I would want to worship.
Luckily for both of us we will probably both get what we want. I’ll live a life free from fear, walk ethically with my community and raise happy, healthy children and you will too (more or less). But you will do it because you fear falling out of a good relationship with your savior, and I will do it because I know that no g-d worth following doesn’t love me just the way I am.
aimai
In regards to the comments being made…
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.’ Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified; a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.” 1 cor. 1:18-25
In my passion there are things which I would like to say, but I will let the Word of God speak for itself. It is the ultimate authority.
Kelly, thank you for your blog. I want to encourage you in what you are doing. For those of us who understand, your words are precious.
Kelly; thank you for your blog. I love to read what you have written. Thank you for standing firm on the truth. The unregenerate will not understand the truth until the Holy Spirit enlightens them.
I am so sad that anonymous (one of them?) would think so little of the sanctity of life. Children are precious to God…whether their mom/dad’s do drugs, etc…they are precious to Jesus. I have a friend who has 12 kids…at least one of them, the birthmom did hardcore drugs…the baby was addicted at birth. This child has some challenges…but oh how much his mom/dad and family adore him. He is a gift to them. He brings so much joy to their family. I have three adopted children that are so precious to me and even more precious to God. I can’t imagine life without them…what if their birthmom’s decided they were a burden and they aborted them…Praise God they didn’t. God commands us to care for the orphans. They maybe unwanted in some eyes (the selfish)…but in God’s eyes they are oh so precious.
Also to the one who said “Do you think people choose to be gay?” Yes they do…they are not born that way. Just like the person who chooses to sleep with someone other than their spouse. They are choosing to live an immoral life just as any other person who is having sex outside of marriage. It is sin! Read Romans 1:18-32. 1 Thessalonians 4..
Thank you Kelly for being so patient yet defending your faith.
Kellie
Kelly,
I am nodding along to most of Aimai’s comments, but I want to take the opportunity to thank you for having this discussion on your blog.
I do not agree with a lot of what you write (I read it because I am interested in why people think differently to me) but I greatly admire you for allowing people to disagree. It shows strength of character. Too many people of all stripes shut down dissent and want only to shout their opinions to an echo chamber. Kudos to you for permitting civil disagreement.
As I said, I don’t agree with you, but I have definitely been edified by the all the arguments made. Thanks.
Boy, I don’t know if amai is still around, but I thought her comments were AWESOME. She brought up some fantastic points and I really appreciated them. I come here sometimes too, but the way that dissenters are treated is so caustic that I don’t come very often. Grace. Please. You know the verse, “Quick to HEAR, slow to speak…?” This reader feels like there’s a lot of quick retorting/defending done when it comes to dissenting opinions, and hardly any listening whatsoever.
Kelly, you have some wonderful wisdom, but (and this is coming from a usually silent reader who means you no ill will) you sometimes come off as very arrogant. You can be so quick to judge, so quick to assign evil motives to others, while assigning only the purest of motives to yourself.
You seem to be interested in being heard, not in hearing. It really makes me wince sometimes, especially because you DO have so many good beautiful things to share otherwise.
Without love, it doesn’t matter how much knowledge we have, nor how right we may be…
Gretchen
Kelly: I am shaking my head in disbelief at Aimi’s comments. If I were you, I would just let it go and stop responding to her. I really feel she is getting a lot of satisfaction out of trying to “goat” you. She is not interested in anything, but being right. Your words will not change her heart, only Christ can and she has made it obvious that she is fine without Him. So, save yourself some mental energy and let her go. Hopefully she’ll drop it and you can move on. I wouldn’t respond anymore – IF I WERE YOU! 🙂
Jessica in Peru
At least our convictions as Christians come from somewhere – THE BIBLE. They don’t come from our feelings or thoughts or random pot-pourri beliefs. There is a guide to what we believe and think. And I’d much rather stake my life on the Bible and end up wrong, than stake my life on myself and a hodge podge of random non-sense that makes no sense and up in hell.
Kelly-
Thank you for your blog. I am a mom of 5 who has read your blog for months now.
It doesn’t take too much common sense to see that Kelly never claims to speak for God herself. She lets the bible do that.
Aimai, your blog you contribute to and the comments section in your blog says it all. It’s real easy to see why you are here. Yet you use the common liberal worldly front of I’m here just to discuss theology (insert subject ie polotics…gay marriage) and I’m tolerant. I’m so done with people like you and so is 3/4 of America. You very much remind me of my mother, a bitter lonely on the inside liberal feminist desperate for attention. I hope that is not the case because I do not know you. And if you are a guy, well, I’m not sure what to say.
Anonymous (whose hubby and Dad are pastors), the bible says do not lay with another man as you would a woman. Can you point out to me a place in scripture where a gay or lesbian “couple” were married? Jesus said we are to love gays and lesbians but also we need to acknowledge what scripture says, which is that this choice of lifestyle is wrong and Christ died for our sins, gay and lesbian lifestyle included. I am a sinner just like you sister, I just know my only hope is in Jesus my Lord and Savior. This is coming from a girl raised in LA, surrounded by gays, feminists, celebrities, gang members and racists. I have seen it all, things I should have never ever seen. I loved them all anyway, lest I cast the first stone. I am no better than you or anyone else, I just stand on Christ the solid rock, all other ground is sinking sand.
Kelly, thank you again for your blog. I don’t agree with all you say, but I can appreciate your boldness in your faith. I take what I will and leave the rest. Thank you so much for your articles on courtship.
This is Kelly’s blog, she can tell it like it is. It belongs to her. If you think she is arrogant (as one said), you don’t like what she writes, you don’t agree with her take on politics, you don’t like her open arms accepting blessings from God, why are you here?
A recovering feminist
” I’m so done with people like you…”
WHAT?
IS THIS CHRIST????
Is this what we are supposed to be known for??? Is this what we were saved by grace to become???
My goodness. I am truly ashamed. Someone needs to wipe this spit off the face of Christ. This, my sisters, is NOT what we are called to be.
~Gretchen
“Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis is a great book that tackles many of these over-arching questions about one way, one God, one Word, one Chruch.
C.S. Lewis was an amazing scholar and theologian (not just a children’s author) and in “Mere Christianity” he starts out answering these questions from a purely logical, human point of view.
Aimai and others, I would suggest you read this book if you are serious about searching for “real knowledge” and truth.
Also…ask God. Pray. He says in His Word that if you seek Him you will find Him. (Jeremiah)
The problem is you have to be seeking HIM, not seeking self-validation.
Gretchen, Titus 3:10-11 says:
10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
I think that pretty much shows how someone could be “done” with someone. I don’t think they should just dismiss an entire group of people, but definitely if they find someone who would qualify as “divisive”, they have every right to turn away from them after they’ve been properly warned.
With love
Jamie
Jamie,
That verse is speaking about Christian quarreling in the church. It is not an excuse to disengage ourselves from discussions with non-believers.
However, it is the Holy Spirit’s job to “make the seeds grow”. So if we plant a seed, our job is done. I don’t think we need to exhaust ourselves trying to address arguments and fights over and over. God ultimately has to soften someone’s heart.
BTW-This is the verse I was referring to in Jeremiah (29:12,13):
“Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD,”
Also many others in the NT-“seek and you will find”, “knock and the door will be opened”.
If anyone is honestly seeking God–seeking Truth, and not relativism, God will reveal Himself, and they will know the Truth.
But also in Jeremiah “the heart is deceitful above all things”, and people more often than not, just want to have someone tell them what they want to hear.
I can only speak for myself. I started reading here because I was interested in Christianist female perspectives on things, including parenting. I’m a married, heterosexual, mother of two daughters. I’m also an atheist and a jew, a politically active parent and democrat in my local community. I’m a member of my PTA–often chair of it, sit on the board of my kid’s school, I used to be a professor, and I now blog at a political blog where my snarky side comes out. I’m not faking my interest in theology, I have a lifelong love of it. I took bible study classes in highschool, from a christian perspective, and I have studied both talmud and torah from a jewish perspective. A few years ago my christian sister in law asked me to teach the Passover Seder to her ecumenical christian bible study group. Those women, from several different prostestant sects and a few catholics, assured me that their firm belief in g-d led them to believe that no other person was “in error” or living far from g-d’s grace and that g-d’s plan existed for each person in a totally individual way–that is, if g-d called you to be a jew, you were a jew. If g-d called you to be an atheist, you were an atheist.
I don’t say what I have said on this blog to tease kelly but because I am sincerely interested in, and sincerely disagree with, the peculiarly narrow view she takes towards christ and towards her fellow american citizens.
On the subject of abortion and gays I feel that we owe it to each other to be honest and clear about things–and that if we could be as honest and clear about basic principles like “what sins do I think should also be crimes?” or “what is the best way to discourage a practice of which I, personally, dissapprove” we can get closer to working together across party lines and religious barriers.
That’s not some weird thing that I think to fake kelly or her posters out. I really think that. (I would definitely have these conversations at my political blog but we are pretty much in agreement with each other on first princples so our conversations tend to be short, almost telegraphic.)
So, I oppose abortion, like I oppose heart attacks or hunger. That is, I think there should be less of all three. I also think that outlawing abortion, like outlawing hunger or heart attacks, is not a fruitful approach to the problem. For several reasons. I think throwing women, their doctors, or their families in jail for choosing abortion is about as useful as throwing a starving woman in jail for not having enough money to eat, or throwing a heart attack victim in jail for getting sick. Its just not a sensible strategy.
I get that many posters here feel personally responsible for the “sin” of abortion. You take a collectivist approach to sin and religion and feel that what some person does, somewhere else, freely, perhaps wrongly, reflects badly on you with your g-d. Perhaps, you sometimes say, he will punish you for someone elses’s sins/acts. I feel exactly the same way about the Iraq war. As a member of a democracy/polity that voted for a man who choose to bomb a civilian population I feel that I am, in some sense, morally responsible for those acts committed by our soldiers over in Iraq.
I’ve raised the comparison before and its clearly a very salient one because other posters have too. When I have Kelly, or some other poster, has always insisted that these things are just different. Either because fetal life is seen as “innocent” while, somehow, Iraqi women and children are not or because “we” aren’t doing the bombing or because “its the insurgents really” or there aren’t as many dead iraqis as hypothetically dead babies. You can pick your favorite excuse for why bombing an iraqi city and killing upwards of a million Iraqis, driving a million more into refugee status and forcing their wives and daughters into prostitution is not as bad, or worse, than flushing some embryo down the tubes.
I’d say to be honest we need to drill down deeply into the way we think, as individuals and religious communities and political actors about responsibility, law, politics and individual action. I *do* feel responsible for things that my country does, for its laws and the deaths that they cause. I *don’t* feel that my responsibility extends to criminalizing the health care choices men and women make, or their marriage choices. Some of you, apparently, invert that. You *do* feel that you must impose your personal morality on others, criminalize their private behavior, and legislate and punish individuals who make different choices from the ones you would make under the same circumstances.
That’s not the only way to approach the relationship between morality, religion, and law. There are religious communities that don’t eat pork or drink alcohol. Should non members of those communities be forced to abide by those particular strictures? Should marriage laws be written to forbid intermarriage, or outmarriage? Should taxi drivers be able to refuse transportation to people not of their own faith? Should doctors be allowed to refuse treatment to people of different faiths? If you ask yourself honestly where you stand on these questions I’m betting that if you see the taxi driver or the doctor as “christian” within your limited view of who is christian you will say “yes, the religious individual should have the right to criminalize, ignore, or fail to treat the non religious individual as his religion dictates.” While if you say to yourself “oh, I’m the christian being refused treatment, taxi rides, or legal freedoms by the muslim or atheist taxi driver or doctor” you will come out on the other side of the argument.
In a large, complex, plural society like the one we live in it behooves each of us to try to put ourselves in both positions on every question: first in the position of the person who wants religious freedom *to* discriminate and then in the position of the person who wants religious freedom *from* discrimination. When you do that you find that you are not so certain that you want to line up with criminalizing someone else’s behavior, unless it is absolutely necessary, because you grasp that your freedom of religion is bound up with their freedom *from* your religion.
That’s how I approach most moral and ethical questions. That’s my inclination due to my ethnic background, since jews in this country and other countries are generally in the minority. Its also my inclination due to my former profession,w hich is as an anthropologist, because it was my job to look hard at local culture and try to figure out how it works and doesn’t work for the people involved.
As for the debate about abortion in this country you can read all about the internal strife among republican true believers over at Slate. Some have come around to the classic democratic position “safe, legal, and rare” for purely humanitarian and ethical reasons while others hew a hard line. I personally find the catholic position espoused by Prof. Doug Kmiec quite consonant with my own. Ross Douthat’s approach quite repellent and incoherent. But your mileage may vary.
aimai
aimai,
“Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.”
i do agree with the fact that *I* dont have the say whether a person has an abortion or not. we can only do waht we can do, and i do sadly agree that if it pregnant women who dont want their children dont keep them….who will? that is an afterthought..doesnt make abortion right, but it doesnt allow a thorough solution.
as i am not a fundamentalist, i agree with much aimai and all the anonymous-es have said. i do not understand, as some others have expressed, why the christians who post here are not likewise called out on their poor way of choosing to word things. many of the comments that these people are commenting about, are offensive, IMO.
i do also wonder (like aimai) how some here think the ‘interpretation’ they see as the Word, is the exact 100% correct interpretation. any anything short of that, is fallacy??? but im ok with accepting it here as it is. im going to strive to get along here regardless….else i can vbarely live with myself.
Just a random point. No one will probably take what I say to heart, simply because you don’t agree with it. But maybe I just have an opinion from the other side of the argument. (abortion) My birthmother could have had an abortion. She wanted to keep me but couldn’t. She gave me up for adoption. For the entirety of my life, as I found out when I met her after so many years, she went through very tough emotions, she regretted giving me up and worried about me and wondered where I was and how I was doing for all those years. I’m not saying abortion would have been the better choice for her, but I know close friends (of all ages) who have had abortions recently and up to thirty years ago. Most of them have no regrets and feel that the wonderful family and children they were able to get later on in life was made possible by making that choice. If my birthmother would have been one of those people…if it would have been better for her (I’m not saying it would have been…but IF)…then I would be glad to not exist for her to be able to have a better life free of the pain caused by giving me up for adoption. I say this because I realize that if I was aborted, I wouldn’t know it. It wouldn’t hurt me. But if it would have made her life better…then ok. I think it’s so hard to think of that…the reality of having never existed…it’s more than humans can comprehend. Obviously I don’t want to die now…because I’ve lived already and know who I am and that I exist. But if I never had, then it seems better to me to give someone who already exists the possibility of a better life.
It’s hard to put these feelings into words…but the argument that every aborted fetus wants to live may not be true. I lived, and given the choice, IF I knew somehow that my birthmother’s life would have been better, I would rather have not lived. But what happened happened…and for those who have had abortions the same thing goes for them. I leave it at that. I prefer not to ask “well what if they kept the baby?”. Well we don’t live in a world of “what if”. Abortion happens. Childbirth happens. To each their own. And as an “almost aborted” person…I say I’d be ok with any of the choices my birthmother could have made. Only God knows what will happen.
Anon,
I find this comment frighteningly illogical on a number of leves. You assume we fight for life because “every fetus wants to live”. That’s actually not the point at all. The point is that WE HAVE NO RIGHT DECIDING SOMEONE SHOULD DIE.
Another point I’ve been meaning to make…this fight is not just for unborn children. Is it for people already living, whose lives may hang in someone else’s hands one day. Euthanasia is already a tragic reality. It is gaining momentum. The very ones who fight for “choice” may have their choice to live taken away one day by someone who deems them inconveninet.
We don’t have a right to take innocent life. Period. It’s as black and white as anything gets.
I simply stated my personal opinion coming from someone who perhaps had a closer tie to abortion/adoption…ect. than some people. Believe me I didn’t expect you to agree. I don’t know if I think a fetus, up till a few weeks…is a baby. So in my post I wasn’t considering a first trimester abortion murder. Again…I know for a fact you don’t agree with me there…however I think we are entitled to our own opinions. I just thought some of your readers would find it interesting to see what someone thought who actually has been in a close situation with this issue. I guess it’s hard for you to imagine my situation…how I felt when I learned how wanted I was by my birthmother after I was born, and how agonizing each birthday was for her for the past twenty one years. We have a good relationship now thankfully, my parents are supportive of me meeting her…but can you understand that I’d wish anything to have made her life easier. I’m not saying abortion is a “good” thing. I know the people who have had them had a hard time with the decision, but they came out of it with no regret.
Have a little compassion. There are people who really are in situations, be it physical or mental, who should not have children and can’t have them. Not everyone considers abortion murder in the first trimester.
I know that many people can interpret the bible different ways, and God speaks to us in different ways. In exodus there is a verse that is giving rules for punishments for certain crimes.
22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [*] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Footnotes:
*has a miscarriage
Taken from biblegateway.com which is a searchable bible online. (oh the wonders of technology…)
Now in my interpretation, which it seems obvious to me, this is saying if a woman has a miscarriage as a result of this violenc, but she is not harmed, then it is not considered a major offense. Which would imply that the miscarried fetus isn’t considered a person, as an earlier verse in exodus states
” 12 “Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.”.
However if the woman is injured or killed, then it is life for life, tooth for tooth. So my assumption is that in this ruling, the life of the woman is considered first.
Now I realize that you are set in your opinion and your interpretation of God’s word, so I strongly doubt you’ll take any thought to a different approach.
Another point, and this is entirely personal to me, I recently attended the ‘Bodies Revealed’ exhibition at a science museum. I don’t know if you know what this is, but it is a collection of actual human bodies (donated to science by these persons before death) opened up and preseved. It also shows actual preserved fetuses and embryos in different stages. (not from abortions, the mothers died of natural causes and had donated their bodies to science). In the first trimester a fetus resembles nothing more than a cluster of cells. I’ve seen real ones with my own eyes. And that helps seal my opinion that an early abortion isn’t murder as I can’t consider what I saw a person.
My little opinion. I’m sure you will just argue back, but at least hear me out and appreciate another opinion.
By the way I’m absolutely against Euthenasia. As I’ve said, I don’t consider a first trimester abortion a murder because I can’t consider it a person, scientifically.
If you murder someone who is alive, who has been born already, then yes that is taking of innocent life.
So please don’t assume I’m for euthenasia or the death penalty or war or whatever simply because I think abortion is ok. I don’t consider abortion murder. I do however, consider the other things murder.
“Have a little compassion. There are people who really are in situations, be it physical or mental, who should not have children and can’t have them. Not everyone considers abortion murder in the first trimester.”
Wow. Re this comment…I think compassion is what drives me to my position on abortion. If children “are in positions who should not have children”, they should not be having sex–that’s kind of a no brainer. God connected to two on purpose, and never meant for them to be separated in the first place.
I guess I’ve been naive to think people are actually still debating “when life begins”, even though the scientific community long ago admitted “at conception”.
“It’s not a person until I can see it”…What you saw at your “Bodies Revealed” thing was a hoax. Tell you how I know..
Most people don’t know they are pregnant before 5 or 6 weeks. Then, the ultra sound, done around 9 weeks, reveals a tiny yet perfectly formed little human body. Very few abortions are performed under that time.
The logic that “a person isn’t a person until it looks like one” would be comical if it weren’t so tragic.
So, when does a baby “look enough human” for you not to want to kill it? And why does that matter? (The Bible verse you quoted…”serious injury” may have referred to whether the baby died or not…”born prematurely” means, born alive.)
You may be against enthanasia, but I promise there is a direct connection between abortion and euthanasia. There is no stopping point to allowing one human to decide if/when another human is “viable”.
(The Bible verse you quoted…”serious injury” may have referred to whether the baby died or not…”born prematurely” means, born alive.)
Note you said “may have referred”. Yes…exactly. We don’t know. For all you or I know it may well have meant that the baby died. But of course you would never consider that.
Don’t worry honey, I know you think I’m an evil person who probably goes around advocating the killing of babies. That’s ok. I don’t really care. I have a personal relationship with God, and I’ll let Him judge me, not you.
Oh and yeah I guess my hubby and I should stop having sex because we don’t want children right now. Great point there. Yeah. Oh I guess now you’ll tell me we shouldn’t be married? Yes because you definitely have the right to tell someone whether or not they should be married, or having sex.
Oh and listen sweetie, please do a bit of research on the “Bodies Revealed” exhibit before you call it a hoax. Although to you, probably most science is a hoax, so I shouldn’t bother arguing there.
Oh and to quote you, yes you are a bit naive to think that the “when does life begin” question has been answered. What is life? Our cells are living. Plants are “alive”. Yes of course a fetus is “alive”. It is made of living cells. But at what point is that “life” granted a separate soul? When is it no longer a cluster of LIVING cells and become it’s own human?
I guess I’m just modest enough to say I don’t know. Life isn’t just science. Of course those cells are living. But we are more than cells.
Until both you and I meet with our Creator in heaven and can ask him these questions, I don’t think we can be sure. So until then, I believe every woman has the right to choose what’s best for her life, and the life of her possible child.
Anon,
You may not know when life begins, but yes, depite your condescending remarks that I don’t, the Bible makes it crystal clear.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
Also,
“For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.” Hebrews 7:10
I would hate to stand before the Lord and try to wiggle my way out of an excuse like, “well, I couldn’t exactly tell from Scriptures (or from my own common sense) when life is worth saving.”
I am not trying to be harsh, nor am I trying to tread softly around the issue of life being so flippantly treated by someone who professes Christ.