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“Therefore also now, saith the Lord, Turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth Him of the evil. Who knoweth if He will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him…………Gather the people sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children………….”
The House vote was expected this Sunday. We are fasting Saturday.
67 comments
Praying and fasting unto the Lord is our hope. Have you heard of The Call? That is what they do in different cities. Their motto is “It is a fast, not a festival.” It is a calling from God. Great post!
This is a great idea. I’m with you. Already praying, but I forget to fast.
I won’t promise the whole day – ’cause I’m weak 🙂 but I’ll try to make it.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
“…so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you…”
Doesn’t posting about it make it “noticed by men”?
Fasting so the rest of can continue having trouble getting medical care. Thanks so much.
Antonia,
The point is to invite others to a fast, just like those of old “announced” and invited the people to join. I announced the day because it is time-sensitive regarding the vote. I would have thought most people got that.
I don’t see anything wrong with asking other like minded christians to pray and fast with you. The Bible talks of times whole nations were to fast.
I am sorry it is difficult for some people to get medical care but this is not the answer. So many countries have already tried it and it doesn’t work. I do not want the government messing with my or my family’s medical care. There are other solutions but they are not being considered. This bill is so huge they don’t even know everything in it and are saying we will find out what all is in it and how much it will cost once it’s passed. I thought all this was suppose to be out in the open even televised what happened to all that? It’s posted now but there are 153 pages of changes to the “Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010”. I can not understand it. That’s just the changes to the Senate passed bill. The Senate bill was 2409 pages. How could the average citizen read or understand this? How could our elected officials read this entire bill and make sure there are not loop holes? Have any of them? Do they even care? It doesn’t seem they do. They are well aware the majority of American people do not want this but they believe they know what is best for us and it doesn’t matter what the people want.
I just remember something I heard in August Pres. Obama made a comment about government run health care not putting other insurances out of business and compared it to the US Postal Service. Not a great comparison if you are for gov. run health care. Postage keeps going up and they were talking about not running on Saturdays anymore last summer.
Sorry my post got so long and this is only the 3rd time I’ve posted anywhere. This is just such a scary prospect and it’s frustrating that they are refusing to listen.
Thank you, Ann.
Thank you for the challenge!
James 5:15- 16 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Ashley,
We all agree the health care system is broken. We’re praying for all of us when we pray against socialized care. It’s not good for you, me or anyone else. The surface appearance doesn’t reveal the deeper, much greater disasters. Why won’t you take the time to listen and not be so short-sighted?
Ashley,
Most states offer basic aid such as health care, food stamps, child care assistance, unemployment, cash aid, and housing assistance.
http://www.welfareinfo.org/
For those that are uninsured, hospitals still have to treat them. Most will even write off a significant portion of the bill if a patient is uninsured and has a low income.
I had an emergency appendectomy right after my husband lost his job and after we lost our insurance. Good timing huh? The hospital wrote $20,000 off my bill and the rest I made $10 a month payments (which didn’t take very long to pay off because it wasn’t a whole lot).
Anyway, there are options out there if one needs them. I think the democrats are using scare tactics to make everyone panick and sign this bill. I watched the entire healthcare summit online and all they did was tell sob stories to scare people instead of giving info about what is in the bill. I am sorry, but I don’t want a mystery plan shoved in my lap.
In Pelosi’s on words:
“But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.”
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Pelosi-We-have-to-pass-the-bill-so-you-can-find-out-whats-in-it-87151897.html#ixzz0igs9thhI
oops, my newest comment to Ashley got eaten 🙂 I think it does that if 2 people comment at the same time… although I’m not sure.
“Honestly, no one cares about people fasting.”
Really? Hmmm, Scripture says an awful lot about fasting and prayer, I’d say our Lord and Father cares an awful lot. He’s the one we’re trying to enlist to come to our aide; it behooves us to come on HIS terms not our own.
HE is quite capable of stopping this monstrocity if HE sees fit to do so. See the Biblical sources above; better yet find some of your own.
No one is denying anyone medical care. It’s already been stated before – in this country you can get medical care at any time because they have to treat you. Of course, you might have to pay for it. A sense of entitlement should NOT be forced on those who desire to responsible for themselves.
Ashley,
I’m a Canadian, and we suffer from taxpayer funded, Government controlled healthcare here.
If you truly believe that the government will be more wise and careful with your money than you would be, I would suggest checking out Dave Ramsey’s wesite.
If you believe that the government will make better decisions about your health than you would make, I would suggest going to a library and reading up on a few news magazines that amply show how governments all around the world can’t get even the simplest programs to work well, much less a program of this magnitude dealing with something as serious as people’s health.
One socialist politician in Canada needed surgery a while ago, and it was funny to read that he went to a privatized health care provider to have his hernia looked after. He later claimed he didn’t know that the facility he went to was privately owned – to which the obvious response was: “How could you not know? Did you somehow not notice that you didn’t have a several week wait time? Did you somehow not notice that you were looked after in a very professional way by people who obviously are interested in giving you a good experience, so you bring them more business by word of mouth?” etc.
Another big negative is this: In our province, 50% of every dollar the provincial government receives by any and all income sources, goes directly to healthcare. And the bills climb higher every year.
Supporting socialist healthcare is to love tax hikes, to love government control over your life, to support the government opinion about your health more than your own opinion, and really is an admission that I need to be taken care of because I can’t really be trusted to make my own decisions.
Our family is praying for you guys too; I care a whole lot for the US of A and what it has stood for in the past, and would love to see it be restored to the good old days when God was worshipped.
Well, I am Canadian and have to admit that I fully enjoy my “free” health care. I really don’t see what the fuss is. Isn’t it a good thing to not have to pay for pregnancy care, ultrasounds, chemo, etc.?
I pray every day, I live a virtuous life and according to the commandments. There are many people praying for me. I also have a genetic, progressive illness. I am in and out of the hospital frequently and on medications to try to slow down the progression. Life expectancy is now in the mid 30s.
Prayer alone hasn’t and won’t healed me. It will not stop this disease from taking my very breath away. Even with private insurance, my copays for prescriptions are 5k a year. That doesn’t include copays, time, travel costs for seeing my specialists. I have about 3-5 appointments a month at present.
Yes, prayer and faith are important – not only asking, but thanking God for His grace and blessings. And miracles do happy. But sick people need more than prayer alone.
Every one of you – us – is one step away from an injury or devastating diagnosis. Sooner or later, every one needs medical intervention at some point, and providing a public OPTION for the uninsured and under-insured will provide some security and a chance at managing or fixing an injury or illness.
———————-
By Kim M, March 19, 2010 @ 11:58 pm
James 5:15- 16 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
I cannot afford health insurance, but I surely cannot afford to live under this proposed bill. We’re praying here.
Laura – I’m Canadian too (from BC) – the problem with your thinking is that it does not matter if we “fully enjoy” something. The question is: is it biblical? The answer is a resounding NO. For the simple reason that the Bible says “do not steal”. Our health care is “provided” by involuntary taxation. That is the same as stealing. The government is not exempt from God’s law. So whether it works (which it doesn’t) or whether we LOVE it (which many don’t), it is not biblical; God does not approve. The end.
You also have the typical Canadian attitude of selfish entitlement. Guess what – health care is not a right. It is a privilege. When the gov starts taking care of people from cradle to grave, it is acting as God – also giving and taking away rights. God punishes nations such as those. I fully expect his judgment on Canada – it is very wicked, including it’s socialized medical system.
It’s time Christians started studying what the Bible says about our government (and health) system.
What does the Bible call for? Well for people who can’t afford health care, it calls for charity. Simple.
I read a stat recently about how many billions of dollars America gave towards charity, even after the economic crash. There needs to be a better way, yes. And it’s up to Christians to come up with other biblical solutions instead of allowing liberal heathens to make all of the decisions.
“Our health care is “provided” by involuntary taxation.”
I’m puzzled. When did Canada become a dictatorship?
Are you sure it’s the Bible you’re reading, and not The Fountainhead.
You are right about one thing though. If Christians were to do as Jesus commanded, and give 50 -100% of their earnings to the poor, there would be no need for government assistance.
Flora,
Jesus didn’t command that. And I don’t think you want to go down that trail…the Bible actually gives much stricter commands regarding who qualified for charity than some of us like to think. Have you read the list of qualifications for widows to be financially supported by the church? Don’t misuse Scripture to be insulting.
Antonia, Were you saying that the verse I posted isn’t true? Just wondering.
Antonia,
btw… I am sorry you are suffering. Praying for you.
Antonia, I went back and re-read your comment. I don’t really think the verse I posted means that God will always heal us the way WE THINK He should. I just thought it was an interesting verse and good to think about. Kelly mentioned Samaritan (Christian sharing). Did you know that the members pray for one another? That is a truly fulfilling way of doing it I think. Anyway… just some thoughts. I apologize if I sounded accusing.
It’s interesting that so many people refer to socialized health care systems as “free”…they are far more costly to administer than private group plans, and more subject to fraud (Medicare and Medicaid are revealed to be defrauded to the tune of 15-30 percent, depending on the year). It is NOT free – someone is paying for it, literally by the point of a gun. That is not charity, as Kelly WW pointed out – it’s stealing. A broken commandment elevated to some sort of Christian benevolence…it confounds. The complete absence of constitutional authority to institute such a system is what I hope will do away with whatever item they might pass today. I’m not sure whether I’m alarmed or surprised that our Constitutional Lawyer in Chief doesn’t seem to understand this.
My private health care plan has a five figure deductible…I have saved for five years to make sure our HSA is funded. We make what would be considered a good income, so nearly half goes to taxes (between income, sales, property, etc). We do not take trips, we drive ten year old cars. Now not only will my premiums likely go up, if I’m even allowed to keep my current plan, my taxes will be going up to pay for the lifestyles , vices, and risks of others that I strive to avoid. I will not be allowed to vet the way my “charitable contribution” will be spent – apparently it’s private, between a woman and her doctor (now pregnancy is officially an illness). And no one can say – no one – what is in this bill. It may be available on PDF, but it is essentially a collection of special interest addendums. It cannot be administrated in its current form. If it was something to be proud of, it’s advocates would be editing and rewriting and clarifying, rather than obfuscating to hide their own ignorance of its content.
The insurance I have in place is for a catastrophic event. That’s what insurance is, a transfer of risk, it’s not a catchall for every sneeze and scratch, or even a broken bone or minor surgery. Those are part of life. We are to be prepared for life, and it seems everyone acts surprised when one of these things pops up. It took me a long time to accept this – I’m not trying to be harsh, but I don’t think it’s loving or Christian to allow people continue in a fantasy bubble that the government is going to be their fairy god-parent. They will eventually run out of other people’s money. For those who suffer from illness – I’d rather give money directly, and do. (I think that’s what Kelly’s group essentially is doing – saving for a need and directly giving).
I did a survey when I was in college of students who submitted that they could not afford health care coverage and would be for a government run system (the Clinton’s were pushing for socialized health care then.) What I learned was that most of them (68%) had a new car payment of over $250/mo, spent over $200/mo on recreation (like spring break trips to Mexico, going out on weekends, etc), lived in an apartment rather than in a dorm, worked less than 20hrs a week, and had outside assistance for tuition (either parental stipend, grants, deferred loans). This was purely anecdotal, and I did not ask about their religious or even their political beliefs. But what was overwhelmingly evident is that they did not believe it was their responsibility to prioritize minimal health care coverage over their creature comforts. Those students are now the adults who still don’t think they should make health care a priority over Wii, vacations, and home equity lines of credit. They have made themselves the new class of working poor, and are expecting to be bailed out – and have been, and will continue to be apparently. It’s interesting how much this ties in with the last big contraversial issue Kelly brought up, with regard to the infantilism of our society. We’re not growing out of it. It really is a shame.
One final thought about the countries who “enjoy” socialized medicine – they rarely pay for their own national defense. They rely on the US for that. And yet their national health care systems are still going broke – because the people think it’s free.
Kim M – I understand what you meant, but some people take the verse quite literally. Some people refuse medical care in the belief that “God will provide”. Others believe that if you pray enough, you will be rewarded by being healed.
Well, what if it’s not in God’s plan to heal me? Does that mean I’m not praying enough or not a good enough person?
It’s the thought process along the same line as not working because you believe that “God will provide” food, shelter and sustenance. There is human responsibility, and there is the moral responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves. That’s all.
“I am sorry you are suffering. Praying for you.”
Why aren’t her fellow Christians paying her medical bills?
Antonia, I hope we can have a public option one day. I wish this bill was as “socialized” as some people think it is.
Hi Kelly, I made it. I’ve never done a 24 hour fast before! Of course, it’s in the LORD’s capable hands. Now we wait and see, right?
I’m going to combine 2 articles here; I enjoy / agree with your way of looking at things. My husband and I have frequently discussed the thievery of taxes but I forget it and get bogged down with other things from time to time. Thank you so much for reminding me.
Everything in this country is designed to draw people into the mindset that they are owed something – pity. It is wonderful to be able to read your blog and others like it and find out that there are still many Biblically minded individuals out there.
Our Pastor taught a wonderful sermon this morning. Basically – We need to focus on Christ’s return and allow that to spur us on to living Christ centered, obedient lives. Because He can return for HIS Church at anytime. Keep up the good fight, don’t get discouraged, may we hear “Well done, good and faithful servant”. We might not even be here for the fireworks if it passes 🙂
Leah – I too believe that Canada is very wicked and will most definitely be judged by God. I am not smart enough politically to get into a debate or anything, I just want to say one thing. Although taxation is stealing, Jesus did say to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. And Caesar was a heathen. So if I am commanded by God Himself to pay my taxes to a heathen government, then why can I not benefit from the things the taxes provide? I just don’t get it. We are living in a fallen world and our governments are far from ideal, but I don’t think I am sinning when I enjoy “free” healthcare. I have friends in the states who are literally staggering under bills from ultrasounds and chemo treatments. You can’t tell me that that is better.
PS – I am from NS… hello from the east 🙂
Actually, we’re commanded to follow man’s laws on more than one occasion, which is why the “render unto Caesar” default doesn’t apply in the case of entitlement taxation. It’s unconstitutional, which means it isn’t legal under our (US)system of goverment. This particular proposed legislation is against the law.
No where am I commanded by Christ to break the law, nor to encourage others to do so in the name of a contrived, self-serving notion of social justice. Giving sacrificially is our call – paying wasteful taxes isn’t. The Bible speaks to money and stewardship more than it speaks of Heaven. The juvenile portrayal of Christ that some persist in as some kind of fairy tale Robin Hood character is demeaning to His teaching and sacrifice.
Flora – I don’t know the answer to your question of why Christians aren’t paying for the health care of others, except that many are. Many Christian hospitals have vast charitable reserves that they donate to under/uninsured patients and indigent care. I read every week about a church fundraiser for a person in need. I have received a gift from a Dr. who asked only that I donate in kind to a charity who would treat another person when I was able. I did.
I think it’s interesting that Kelly/WW is the one who is participating on a community level in a sharing program and yet you’re accusing her of being a less than sparkling example of a Christian. Because she or others of us see a vested effort rather than a series of rationed handouts as a superior system doesn’t mean we don’t deeply care for people – it means we see them as God’s people, whether they’re believers or not, not incompetent subjects who can be wooed by shiny objects and unethical trickery to our way of thinking.
cottage child,
“The juvenile portrayal of Christ that some persist in as some kind of fairy tale Robin Hood character is demeaning to His teaching and sacrifice.”
Thank you, thank you…it’s stomach-turning, this portrayal.
“Because she or others of us see a vested effort rather than a series of rationed handouts as a superior system doesn’t mean we don’t deeply care for people – it means we see them as God’s people, whether they’re believers or not, not incompetent subjects who can be wooed by shiny objects and unethical trickery to our way of thinking.”
Perfectly said.
I’m suprised so many Christians are opposed to everyone having healthcare so they can live. Christians are pro-life still right?
And regardless of the current bill being proposed why are we not fasting and praying about the real death panels.. insurance companies. I have a sick child and insurance. They do not care whether my child lives or dies. They are FOR PROFIT. That’s the bottom line. If private insurance is so great why are 40 million people uninsured?
I really hate when I come to blogs for Christian guidance only to find christians who are bamboozled by the republican party. And instead of being here to promote Christ are hear to promote the republican party. I am an evangelical christian and I’m glad to say no political party has me fooled. I belong to God. And because of that, I see the republican party as self centered, harsh to the poor and the sick, they do not promote life (wars and death penalty) and greedy.
If you want to pray and fast, fast for all the children that will die due to lack of medical care because of greed.
Lisa,
LOL! If you are going to make assertions about blogs you read, make sure you’ve read enough to know what you’re saying. We don’t promote the Republican party at all. Go back and read some of the political posts surrounding the presidential election.
Likewise, those of us who understand the unethical and destructive principal of socialized medicine can’t get over the “bamboozlement” going on either to convince the people that this bill is going to solve everyone’s problems.
Do you people really think we “don’t care”? Do you really think we don’t suffer from the same problems as you do regarding ridiculous medical bills and fraudulent insurance companies?
Geesh…we’re all for changing the current situation. But the proposed plan? That’s for people who truly don’t care about anyone but their own, perceived immediate remedy, with no ability to look beyond today and see the disaster it will bring tomorrow. Not to mention, it’s not right. But obviously we’re far beyond doing things based on ethical or moral value.
There is NO public option with this bill. What part of this is “socialized?” Please, please tell me.
Millie – Please tell me what part isn’t socialized. It’s a government enforced system by which those who produce are commanded to serve those who either can’t or won’t. At the point of a gun (it’s an IRS-enforced proposition).
The entire thing is one giant public option. Many economists see this as an opportunity for insurance companies to solidify their already strong relationships with government agencies, moving out of underwriting and into strictly administration. Their profits stand to go up. Who is in who’s pocket, exactly, in this scenario?
Since it obviously dosen’t go without saying:
Just because the gov’t calls it a health care plan dosen’t make it a health care plan. It’s a wealth redistribution plan. Countries w/ socialized (gov’t provided) health insurance plans are overloaded with waits and shortages. That’s not health care. Sitting in a waiting room for 15 hours is not health care. Being turned away is not health care.
I can tell you stories of personal aquaintences/friends who recieved or gave medical charity all day long and into next week – Without any gov’t strongarming or even spiritual manipulation. Just people helping people.
reprint-
Re: single-payer health care (i.e. gov’t run and paid)
I mentioned Canada’s problem (insufficiant accessablility), here’s Britain dealt with –
“750,000 are on waiting lists for hospital admission; 40% of cancer patients are never able to see an oncologist; there is explicit rationing for services such as kidney dialysis, open heart surgery and care for the terminally ill. Further, minimum waiting times have been instituted to reduce costs.” As in, 122 day minimum if the hospital dosen’t want to lose funding.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/23/health-care-around-the-world-great-britain/
– Gosh, I hope you don’t break a leg. Or get cancer. But if it’s cancer, they’ll deal with you. Oh, they’ll deal with you.
(from same article)
” Because of rationing, care might not be as easy to get as advertised. Terminally ill patients may be denied treatment.”
– Well, you know, you’re gonna die anyway. Why prolong the inevetable? Who needs mercy or hope? You cost too much.
But hey, 100% of them are insured. That’s helpful. If you could see a doctor.
(from http://generationcedar.com/2009/06/socialized-health-care-not-the-answer-and-why-didnt-we-elect-ron-paul-for-president.html
6-25-09; 3:36 PM)
See the discussion also here:
http://generationcedar.com/2009/06/a-word-about-socialized-health-care-from-a-participant.html
“How Universal Health Care Dosen’t Work”
http://www.americanvision.org/media/download/how-universal-healthcare-doesnt-work/
“It’s not universal, it’s not health, and it’s not care.” Joel McDurmon
And Part 2:
http://www.americanvision.org/media/download/how-universal-healthcare-doesnt-work-p2/
This one is especially interesting: the first 5 min go into the MANY trillions of $ of debt we have and we’re taking on (but not so detailed as to be boring). 5:00-6:20 talk about the points that you brought up in the last Health Care posting, those of – if the gov’t gets to dole out the money, the gov’t gets to decide who’s worth it, and what’s fiscally smart (euthanasia, abortion, etc.). 10:00 has a quote from a liberal to the effect of “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” (They give the actual person and quote, which I just paraphrased).
This second part also has the story of Swedish gov’t putting security guards in hospitals rather than just allowing people to pay out of pocket for uncovered health care (because that would be unfairly favoring the weathy!).
It’s funny that you believe that people are inherently evil, and yet still should be given the opportunity to “volunteer” their time and money. How does that work? Maybe some will, but if your family is personally at risk, I have a feeling you would feel differently.
Anyway, my husband works for a Catholic healthcare system. You have no idea how much the uninsured, those who wait until the last minute to see a doctor or use the ER as a provider, cost taxpayers. It’s incredibly expensive for everyone. The fact that people can’t afford healthcare cripples my husband’s hospital system. You are paying for that, whether you understand it or not. Who do you think is paying?
Lori, all of my family is Canadian. The longest wait in a hospital waiting room was an hour and a half, and that was because my niece managed to break her ankle on Christmas day! Recently my husband’s aunt had a scary deep cough and decided to go to the ER. She waited six hours and then gave up.
That’s HERE. In Michigan.
So to sum up, I wish some of you spent the time I have had in Canada and with healthcare here. Because I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. We are paying a lot more for war, wars that have not done much to help anyone. But healthcare? That’s what you fast about? Sheesh.
Leslie D.- “It’s funny that you believe that people are inherently evil, and yet still should be given the opportunity to “volunteer” their time and money.”
That’s because that’s what the Bible commands. Though shalt not steal – if any of you have done so unto the least of these, so have you done unto me.
Abt canadians, see Leah and Kim from Canada
Funny how some people think people are basically good, but must be forced by coercion to help their neighbor.
Sorry, Canadians – typo
Kim from Canada showcased here (again):
http://generationcedar.com/2009/06/a-word-about-socialized-health-care-from-a-participant.html
Leslie D – ‘We are paying a lot more for war, wars that have not done much to help anyone. But healthcare? That’s what you fast about? Sheesh.”
I agree that the so-called “War on Terror” has been a monumental failure. Doubt atrocity is too strong a word. You’re suggestion that we lack care about that is an argument from ignorance – gross ignorance in this case, apparantly based on this one posting. Illogical.
Ann – Funny you should mention the post ofc:
“Obamacare = Post Office. Debt, lines, poor service.” – Joel McDurmon
http://www.americanvision.org/article/obamas-post-office-gaffe-more-true-than-you-can-imagine/
It’s illogical to base your understanding of Canadian healthcare on a few people. I AM Canadian. Well, I was. I’m American now. Hah.
Yes, I do think people are good. But I also know that depending on random acts of kindness is not a wonderful system if my little girl has H1N1. It could work, it might not. Maybe the doctor volunteering has too much to do that week. It’s not dependable. And let’s face it. The Bible says many things, but when it comes down to it, pastors cheat on their wives, etc. So doing something because the Bible says is not something I want to base the health of my family upon. I’m sorry.
I don’t feel that paying taxes or paying into healthcare is some kind of “coercion.” I believe it is the price of living in a country that supplies me with a post office that actually delivers my mail, a police force that appears when there is trouble, and roads that don’t wash away in the winter. We are a civilized society, and we pay for that. I am not rich. My husband works hard. But if I had care for my children and others didn’t, well, I couldn’t sleep at night.
I don’t see anyone fasting to pull us out of Iraq. So it isn’t illogical to assume that you find healthcare a larger issue. Is it?
I don’t want to argue with you. I just disagree.
“I don’t see anyone fasting to pull us out of Iraq.”
That doesn’t mean it isn’t taking place.
“But if I had care for my children and others didn’t, well, I couldn’t sleep at night.”
For Canadian and American children? Or all children? By that reasoning you’re up all night, every night? Are we somehow more worthy of “care” than the rest of the world?
I’m not trying to be ugly, but I think it should be clear that we’re reserving a lofty standard of care for the western “least of these”, more than for the rest of the world. Let’s be consistent, at least, if these are points we’re going to lose sleep over.
Leslie D – “It’s illogical to base your understanding of Canadian healthcare on a few people.’
Lori (Me) – “You’re suggestion…is an argument from ignorance – gross ignorance in this case, apparantly based on this one posting. Illogical.”
Leslie D. – “I don’t feel that paying taxes or paying into healthcare is some kind of “coercion.”
-It is coercion if it is forced. It is forced when it is tax. You’re relying on emotion again – not logic.
“So it isn’t illogical to assume that you find healthcare a larger issue. Is it? ”
-Yes, illogical. Based on argument from silence. You’re basing your argument on what you’ve observed – not all testable data (which only God has). It’s a certifiable logical fallacy.
“I don’t want to argue with you. I just disagree.”
-And yet you’re here, arguing.
Leslie D – ” So doing something because the Bible says is not something I want to base the health of my family upon.”
OK. The Bible is good enough for me. Visit my blog tomorrow morning.
Leslie D – “I believe it is the price of living in a country that supplies me with a post office that actually delivers my mail,”
– Well, except when it dosen’t. XD
LD – “a police force that appears when there is trouble,”
-usuall appears after the fact to write a report
We are a civilized society, and we pay for that.”
– Taxes don’t civilize people. Forced wealth redistribution dosen’t civilize people. Civilized people make civil things happen. God civilizes people. Submission to the Bible civilized people. Taxes don’t.
In case I wasn’t clear: forced submission isn’t civilized. Civilization can’t be bought or taxed.
Perhaps you meant that we are a nation of convenience, and we pay for that.
If so, then that I can agree with.
I’m sorry, but those of you in favor of this healthcare bill are really starting to agrivate me. I don’t want any government telling me I HAVE to have insurance. Since when did it become the governments job to force people to buy something they didn’t want to buy? Or for that matter, buy it for others as well (taxes). You like to make this about your health and the health of your children, but that is not what this is about. It is about the health of your pocketbook! Right now you can go to any hospital and they have to treat you! Your health is taken care of! All this bill does is make someone else responsible for paying for something you use. That is not right, no matter which way you look at it.
My husband and I make sacrifices (no home phone, cable, eating out, new clothes, we shop at goodwill) so we can afford to buy our own insurance. Yet now we will pay more taxes so those that choose to spend their money unwisely can have “free” healthcare.
Please tell me how that is “fair”!
I agree with RF. My husband and I are self-employed and buy our own insurance. We have a high deductible plan with a Health Savings Account. We struggle sometimes to pay for it. About 13 years ago we went for almost a year with no health insurance and just paid as we went. Granted, we had no catastrophic events. During that time I never once thought someone else should be picking up the bill or making sure I didn’t have to worry about it.
Also, how can the government make it a condition of just being alive that you must buy something.
Also, just a little history might be in order for some of us. Check out what Social Security was supposed to cap at. I think it was .5% and now we are at 7.5% for the employees part and additionally for the employers part. Look at Medicare and the projected cost and the actual cost. The government, no matter who is in power, has never been able to run anything that worked right. That’s why we always have to have some sort of reform. Hmm. Job security for all these lawmakers. Screw it up and then run on how they are going to fix it.
R.F.,
A couple of points.
First of all, it’s aggravate, not “agrivate.”
Second, at least where I live, you cannot just waltz into any hospital and receive treatment. In my city, there is one hospital that treats indigents and the uninsured. If you go to any of the other hospitals, they will immediately send you to the other one. For all I know, this is not the case where you live, but I am speaking from my experience working with the homeless in my area.
Additionally, most people need to go to the doctor for more than just emergencies. If a person with cancer waits to seek medical care until they are having urgent symptoms, it is likely to late for anything to be done to save their lives.
Finally, do you and your husband bring in a combined income of more than $250,000.00 per year? If so, good for you! You are exponentially wealthier than most Americans. If not, you will NOT be taxed at a higher rate. Read the bill.
I have one more question. Do you use the child tax credit? If so, how is that different from any other form of welfare or governmental support. You should really not use that or give the money back to the IRS.
Reading through this HCR nonsense-
“INSUFFICIENT FUNDS.—If the Secretary estimates for any fiscal year that the aggregate amounts available for payment of expenses of the high-risk pool will be less than the amount of the expenses, the Secretary shall make such adjustments as are necessary to eliminate such deficit, including reducing benefits, increasing premiums, or establishing waiting lists.”
Gee, wonder how long that will take?
Heather,
There is a federal mandate that states if you are having a life threatening emergency, they MUST treat you. If it is not life threatening, they may transfer you. Where I live in ALabama, we don’t have a specific indigent hospital. So the hospital I use, that I pay for, that may insurance pays for, is the same hospital people who do not pay use. THey have the same docs, and nurses, and equipment.
When I had my last baby, I had the same doctor, nurse, room, everything as a girl on Medicaid would have. The ONE difference was the office that we visit for prenatal.
I know that it isn’t fair that some people have insurance and some people don’t, BUT it isn’t fair to make some people pay and others not. The constitution does not guarantee everyone’s happiness, just that they be allowed to pursue happiness. It absolutely interferes with my pursuit of happiness to be forced to do something.
It is a little telling, when you look at Joe Biden’s charitable contributions, why the liberal politicians think we should be forced into charity. Most people who make 23,000. and tithe gave as much as he did. From a CHristian perspective, that is VERY stingy. Yet, these are the same people telling us to dig deep and care for our fellow man. HUH? Guess what? We already do.
THere are biblical guidelines of who is to recieve ongoing charity. Unfortunately that leaves some people out, but it is still an instruction from God. EVERY time we ignore God’s instructions we pay a price, personally and as a society.
Also, to matter what the product, the government should not be able to FORCE anyone to buy anything.
No matter, not “to matter” 🙂
Heather,
Sorry for the incorrect spelling. I was typing on a laptop while nursing an infant.
“Additionally, most people need to go to the doctor for more than just emergencies.” You are right. They do. And most doctors will give you a steep discount for paying cash. You can even be put on a payment plan that allows you to pay over time. Doctors, hospitals, and clinics are willing to work with people who havce no insurance. This is not an issue of people without insurance dying of horrible diseases because that can not see a doctor. Even if they can’t go to EVERY hospital, there are those out there that will work with anyone.
Sorry but the issue of income is a very poor one. No we don’t make over $250,000 a year. I don’t believe those that make over $250,000 should be paying higher taxes. Why should they? Are those the ones running around without insurance? No. Why do they need to pay more because they work hard and have become successful financially?
How about we make this easier for you to understand. I’m sure you make more money than my husband and I (we make in the low $20,000 with four kids). Why don’t YOU send US some of your money so we can buy better insurance. (That is what taxing the wealthy does.)
Besides that, if you think they will only tax those that make $250,000 or more you are a fool. It is only the beginning. When there is not enough money because the programs cost more than they expected, everyone will be taxed as well.
Interestingly enough, I can’t go to ANY hospital I want and still have my insurance company cover as much. Out of network providers cost me more.
R.F.,
Does the bill as passed provide that lower income brackets will be taxed for any unforeseen costs? Please point to a specific provision.
Also, you’re right. My husband I do make more than you and your husband do. In fact, in the next couple of years, provided that one or both of us continue to receive raises and promotions yearly, we will enter the tax bracket that will be bearing the costs of this bill. We also pay for our own health insurance. However, we have no objection to paying more of our money to help others who cannot afford the same luxuries as we can, especially when it may mean saving their lives or the lives of their children. If you and your family benefit from provisions of this bill, then I am happy to pay the extra taxes in order for that to happen.
I should add that I’m not 100% thrilled with the version of the bill that ultimately passed. However, I’ve yet to see a “perfect” piece of legislation that did not result from some amount of compromise. We elected the legislators who voted for this bill, and if we don’t like their actions we can vote them out. That’s the beauty of our system.
Heather
P.S. Obviously, we have different opinions on this, and that’s okay. I don’t mean to be rude, although I know my previous comment may have come across that way.
Antonia,
I am sorry for your daily pain and am praying God shows you His will for your life.
Most Christians formulate their belief on healing from someone around them dying or not being healed, not on the will of God, as written in the Bible. In the New Testament (Covenant), God has given us His grace as never before. One of the Strong’s definitions of grace is power. Repeatedly in scripture we are called to act just like Christ, because He empowered us to do so. In the Bible, there is not one example of someone coming to Christ for ANY type of healing (physical, emotional, relational, and especially spiritual reconciliation) and Christ Jesus refusing them unless they withheld something from Him, refusing Him Lordship over them (rich young ruler). Over and over Jesus Christ declared it is our faith in Him that makes us whole in physical healing. Sometimes that healing took a while, most of the time it was instantaneous.
What is different today? We put our trust in our experiences, not the word of God. The people alive at the time of Christ got to experience His presence, erasing any doubt. Most churches today would call you crazy if you expected His presence in your life. However, He promised to never leave us or forsake us. That has not changed. I am not saying to you, “you don’t have enough faith.” I am just telling you what the Bible says about healing. The Bible states that God’s people will be destroyed from a lack of knowledge. Dying before our time and suffering through a lifetime of disease certainly is destroying us and preventing us to fulfill out HIS destiny for us and for His kingdom.
To the matter that is most quoted in rebuttal of what the Bible has said about healing, when Paul said God told Him His grace was sufficient, the Bible is vague on what that “thorn in the flesh” was. It never said a physical impediment. Current day pastors/preachers/priests did. As a former unrepentant sinner who delighted in the things that were against the Lord, I have asked the Lord repeatedly to take away the memories of who I have been. His reply ‘My grace is sufficient. You are a new creation in Christ.” I am not saying that is THE explanation of that verse, but that it is most likely vague purposefully.
Thank you for the prayers. My disease is incurable and the damage irreversible (it’s genetic). I pray for the strength and courage to live the life I am given.
Antonia,
I do not want to insult you, but I do want to push you out of what you have accepted. There is no incurable disease or illness for God. None. He has raised the dead, cured cancer, aids, blindness and many others. He is your new DNA. Only in America, where we know everything medical and trust 100% what the doctors say do we not see this in droves. In other countries “less advanced” miracles occur all the time.
You have stated here twice in only a couple of days that you are incurable. That is not a statement of faith that God can do what He has done and what He has promised in His word. He will not do what we don’t allow Him to. God is not limited by who we are, only by our faith in Him to use us.
For example “It is not God’s will that any perish, but all come to repentance” It is not His will that any die without Christ, but He is limited to save only those who believe His promise, repent and receive Him as Lord.
Grace, in its fullness, to you.
Do you know what causes a genetic disease like mine? A person with my illness is born with two copies of a mutated gene, one from the mother and one from the father. When two people with one copy of the gene (a.k.a. “Carriers”) have a child, each child has a 25% of having the disease, a 50% chance of being a carrier, and a 25% chance of having no mutated genes.
The mutation exists in every cell of my body. There is no way to cure a genetic illness caused by a recessive gene. There is no way to reverse the damage done to my body from this disease. And it’s not just the US who has studied this disease; it’s being studied in Europe and parts of Asia as well.
REALITY, not science, has told us the truth.
No one who has been diagnosed with my disease has ever been “cured”. Does that mean out of the presumed 100 thousand people in the world with this disease, not one person has truly put their faith in God?
There are some theories as to what might lead to a cure way down the road. But for anyone currently alive, there will be no cure.
I pray that you and your family never encounter the challenges that people with my disease face daily. Excluding an accident or unrelated sudden illness, it’s almost a guarantee that most of us will die well before old age, more than half of these early deaths happen before the age of TWELVE. What about the children? Is it their fault as well? Did the 3 year old who is on the transplant list not pray hard enough? Have too little faith?
The lack of empathy that you demonstrate is heart-breaking. I pray for your uncompassionate soul.
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By Kelly L, March 22, 2010 @ 5:02 pm
Antonia,
I do not want to insult you, but I do want to push you out of what you have accepted. There is no incurable disease or illness for God. None. He has raised the dead, cured cancer, aids, blindness and many others. He is your new DNA. Only in America, where we know everything medical and trust 100% what the doctors say do we not see this in droves. In other countries “less advanced” miracles occur all the time.
You have stated here twice in only a couple of days that you are incurable. That is not a statement of faith that God can do what He has done and what He has promised in His word. He will not do what we don’t allow Him to. God is not limited by who we are, only by our faith in Him to use us.
For example “It is not God’s will that any perish, but all come to repentance” It is not His will that any die without Christ, but He is limited to save only those who believe His promise, repent and receive Him as Lord.
Grace, in its fullness, to you.
Antonia,
Obviously you are very offended. And your misunderstanding of my compassion is clear. It is because I have compassion that I forced the issue. You are still basing your belief on evidence in this world as demonstrated by people around you. I will continue to hold that God’s word is the only reason to change my belief. It has been known that a Down’s Syndrom child has been delivered by God to complete healing. I cannot waiver. God can heal EVERYTHING.
I do feel very badly for your situation which is why I wanted to share The Word. And I am sorry you did not hear my heart. I still pray the fullness of God’s grace on you.
Can you point to where I can find such info? Down’s Syndrome clinical manifestations can be treated, but that is different than being cured.
I look forward to reading about this miracle.
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By Kelly L, March 23, 2010 @ 2:27 pm
It has been known that a Down’s Syndrom child has been delivered by God to complete healing
Antonia,
There are testimonies all over about what God has healed in this country and others. But that should not be the basis for believing He heals. The Bible is. Finally coming to believe He heals everything after seeing it with your eyes is still lack of faith and basing your belief on what has been known through personal contact. The Bible should be our final authority that dictates our beliefs.