This subject, from the angle I’m writing, could really be separated into two categories: the birth control industry and accompanying mindset, and the careful, prayerful fertility life of a couple.
While I may have my personal practices and opinions about fertility, I’m not posting about this matter to convince every couple that they should never ever space their children or consider certain, unique situations in their lives. That is not the aim here.
But rather, that people would think about their fertility in a light perhaps they never have before. The BC industry has a destructive, anti-life agenda. There is a plethora of proof for that.
And since they have crusaded for so long to brainwash the masses, I believe with all my heart that Christians need to be talking about a different angle. We need to be speaking about the sacredness of life, and Who is really in control, etc.
Let couples make their personal decisions before the Lord with fear and trembling. But not until their thinking is right…”and how will they know unless someone tells them?”
(Addendum)
The last comment “unless someone tells them” is not meant to imply that I’m trying to assert my personal opinions about BC. The thing I’m referring to that they need to be “told” is the basic, undeniable truth about the sacredness of life. “For YOU have formed my inward parts…I will praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.” From Psalm 139
Not an opinion…just truth.
59 comments
“How will they know unless someone tells them?” Is exactly right.
Kelly, I would like to encourage you to keep being a voice that our culture would love to totally silence. It’s because of women like you that I no longer feel like a criminal for “allowing” myself to get pregnant (by my husband).
The whole birth-controlling mentality is one that goes beyond just personal convenience and lack of morality…you are made to feel totally shameful if you have kids while you are in debt or don’t have a high income or abundant material resources.
Let me assure you, your standpoint is not an easy one to come by. I have been a Christian for 4 years and even the people who seem to welcome children don’t speak out about the madness that has become the norm in our culture…that goes for Christians too in many cases.
Kelly, I think I know what you’re trying to say.
To me, you don’t come across as judgmental or accusing AT ALL. I see your message as one of society as whole, the whole mentality of “well, you’ve got 2 kids, time to get those tubes tied” or “you should prevent pregnancy for the first few years of marriage so you can have some couple time.” Guess I’ve always believed that if you’re ready for marriage, you’re ready for kids too. If you’re not ready for kids, maybe you should wait to get married!
I only have 3 children and get comments, mainly because our daughter was born when we were both over 40. So we hear “Did you PLAN HER?” (even from complete strangers) Our answer — “God planned her!”
I enjoy your board and especially love your beautiful photographs or your adorable children. Keep up the good work!
Lisa
Kelly,
I am the Anon that had the ‘bite’ in the ‘arrogance’ message. In rereading my post, I can sense the bite though none was intended toward you personally, sorry. Now, I did go on birth control because it is just what the doctor gave me (though I asked and asked about the pill aborting a baby and was told that it wouldn’t, I should not have been o.k. with that response). I am embarrased to say it is what others (even Christians) were doing (It’s such a blessing to have such a MERCIFUL God!). I had thought about God controlling my womb, but only slightly. Though a bit offended by some word choices (as I felt incredibly attacked for my decisions ie. a murderers comment that was made), it sparked an amazing conversation between my husband and I…THANK YOU! At this time, I will be going off my pill w/in the next week and trusting God with my womb. 🙂
Is is wrong to pray that God does not open it quite yet as I am still a bit nervous…j/k I know that He will prepare me mentally as well as physically. I am sorry for having read so much disdain into your posts and am greatful that I stumbled onto your blog.
PS I completely agree with the bc statment that it is the ‘norm’ and I SADLY got sucked right in.
Kelly,
Thank you for your post. You make me re-think a lot of things. I grew up in a Christian home, my parents are strong believers. But, when we told my parents we were having our third child, they were like, “Why”? You’ve already gotten a boy and a girl. Of course, they are crazy about our youngest daughter, and honestly can see why we wanted and want more. It’s like the Lord used the little hearts to make my family more understanding.
Also, I read something interesting the other day. The Muslim faith – most of their believers have large families. Most Christians fall into the 2.1 children range. So, just by sheer numbers, Christians will be outnumbered in a few generations. Just a thought. 🙂
Anon,
Wow…I am reading this with tears. Not taking the time to go back and read exactly what I said about murdering children, I used those strong words because I think it takes raw truth sometimes to jolt us out of our thinking.
If we (Christians) are in fact unknowingly aborting our children, I don’t see any reason not to call it what it is…I guess murder implies that the person KNOWS what he is doing, though. Maybe that’s where I should have clarified. I realize it’s not murder if it’s not intentional. (But I URGE those of you on the Pill to find out about it. The question stands…if you remain “willingly ignorant”, would it be murder at that point? Just asking.)
I hope you forgive me, Anon, for that oversight.
But to say again, your comment brings so much joy to my day!!!
I appreciate the conversation. I am one of those ladies who grew up a preacher’s kid who never once heard a Biblical reason for not using birth control. Birth Control was a completely acceptable practice except among Catholics (I was in NJ). My parents had taught that it was irresponsible not to use it.
I just wish I had heard what you and others are saying 6 years ago before my husband and I agreed to a Vasectomy. We caved. We struggled to conceive and struggled to keep our pregnancies and we made a decision in a time of emotional exhaustion. I have 2 beautiful children but would love to have more.
So keep sharing and don’t let the criticism get you down.
And a big thought that is, Anon…Ive posted about this several times.
Could it be, that God’s overarching plan is to grow is Kingdom through “more arrows”? Would that have anything to do with why Rebeccah received the prayer at her wedding, “May you be the mother of tens of thousands”…? Would that be why God said, “And why did he make them one? Because He desires godly offspring.”
Again, it’s all in the mentality. Nevermind the microscopic nuts and bolts and “special” circumstances that people want to hold up as “the rule”. Let’s get the overarching truth right!
Kelly –
Thanks so much for these posts. It is good to understand that our children are blessings from the Lord. Keep up the good work.
It is encouraging and thought-provoking. Surely, the Lord wants us to seek Him on ALL matters of our lives (with our husbands)!!
I can understand that it is wrong to use birth control or other hormone related drugs to prevent women from having children because they don’t want them, or because they think that children might be a burden in their life.
However, what about women who have menstral bleeding problems who must use a hormone related drug to control their monthly flow? I know of women who have to use some form of hormone pill so they are not constantly having to deal with spotting and bleeding problems on a regular basis. They have what is called irregular or sporatic bleeding. Without some form of hormone therapy, they can bleed at anytime without notice, which can be embarassing, as well as an interference with their daily life (especially sexually if they are married). I’m sure that these women don’t take the medications because they enjoy it or because they are trying to prevent children. It’s for health reasons. I can’t imagine any woman who would want to have a monthly flow several times during the month for every month!
So, I am curious as to your (or anyone else’s) opinion on women in this precarious situation. Sure, some of them might be glad because they can “kill two birds with one stone” (e.g., prevent the constant bleeding AND being happy that they don’t have to reproduce children), but we can’t assume that’s ALL the women who fit this delicate position.
On a personal note, I will admit that I am one of these unfortunate women who fit this description. I no longer do BC because my body didn’t like it. However, I do use hormone therapy, which still can be detrimental to the reproduction process. I don’t take any pride in this, nor am I celebrating, “Yeah, I don’t have to have children!” It’s actually quite painful dealing with this irritating problem . . .
I have nothing against your beliefs about the use of BC or against you personally as a person. However, I just thought I would let you know that not every woman who must take some form of hormone therapy (BC or otherwise) is against having children.
Kelly: “Let couples make their personal decisions before the Lord with fear and trembling. But not until their thinking is right…’and how will they know unless someone tells them?'”
Molly: “This is what I’m concerned about. They’re not qualified to make decisions about it until you decide their thinking is right?”
I can’t speak for Kelly at all, but I would have easily said what she said, and by saying so would not mean that “I decide their thinking is right.” In the same way we lovingly share the Truth of God’s salvation with the lost, we share His Truth about children and fertility with other Believers who have been deceived into thinking with-holding life is what God wants for anyone/everyone.
Everyone can make their own decisions, about their religion, about working or keeping a home, about their fertility, etcetera. But God calls us, as Chrisitans, to speak to others His Truths – the lost and the Saved.
Knowing that we as Christians have shared God’s Truths with others, whatever the Truths may be, allows a Christian to know that at least *we* did what God wanted from us. At that point, we know that at least they can have one thought of the Truth, even if they choose to ignore it.
Just as my heart weeps for those that choose eternity in hell, my heart weeps for those that choose to try and close their womb from the Lord. But I don’t think they are “non-qualified” from making those decisions, just lost.
Hi Kelly~
Keep up the good work! Your blog is so encouraging and it really helps me personally. If “birth control” was no big deal, I really don’t feel like there would be so much emotion linked to it. The enemy is about fewer, less, and decrease– steal, kill, and destroy. Our Lord is a Lord of multiplication– more and mightier!!!
I just had precious baby #6 a few weeks ago— I know that people talk about us at church and within our families— the saddest part is when people question our decisions (which are really God’s decisions) in front of my children. How do they think it makes my girls feel when they say— Aren’t ya’ll done? Don’t you know what causes that?You’ve got your boy now you can stop.. and the list goes on and on…..
If our generation could just get an idea of how our Lord views children. I know that it can happen because it happened for me– thank the Lord for a bold friend who wasn’t afraid to share a tract on how the birth control pill works. It changed my family forever!!! I look at my children and think about how things would be if we had not changed our thinking and just gone along with all the “great advice” that has saturated so many families in and out of the church.
I know that there are some situations out there where there has to be serious consideration made when it comes to family size due to health risk, etc… but that is the exception. If we could all just look at life through heaven’s eyes— every part of it, what a difference we could make for the Kingdom!!!
Blessings to you and your beautiful family!!
Shelly– Mama to 5 beautiful girls and 1 precious boy
Mrs. Gunning,
Your point is precisely why I added this to the post:
(Addendum)
“The last comment “unless someone tells them” is not meant to imply that I’m trying to assert my personal opinions about BC. The thing I’m referring to that they need to be “told” is the basic, undeniable truth about the sacredness of life. “For YOU have formed my inward parts…I will praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.” From Psalm 139″
–This all comes full circle back to the basic tenets of the Christian faith, and the even bigger battle we are facing against the truth.
The “new Christianity” that is so prevalent in the church, is just a humanistic theology with a “spiritual cloak”. Result? If you try to hold on to any absolute truth (besides, maybe, that Jesus died on the cross, and I’m sure this is being challenged too) you are dogmatic, a legalist, hard-nosed, judgemental, condemning person who shouldn’t even call himself a Christian.
The Bible is being literally re-written to accomodate this new opinion and it shakes the very foundation of the core of what we hold dear…the Word of God.
Which is why, perhaps, I’m just a wee bit defensive…it’s not a defense of my opinions, but of Christianty itself, that is interwoven in a lot of topics we discuss here.
In a nutshell, compassion has morphed into tolerance…not the pattern our Lord left us with.
Just as my heart weeps for those that choose eternity in hell, my heart weeps for those that choose to try and close their womb from the Lord.
Choosing to use family planning is equated with choosing an eternity in Hell????????
Hi Kelly,
I appreciate your blog and I appreciate your recent posts about the birth control issue. I can really relate to the first anon who posted on this thread. I used to be on the birth control pill even though I’d been warned about it’s abortifacient qualties but chose to be “willfully ignorant” about it b/c others said it didn’t cause abortions and I wanted the convenience. It’s a terrible shame to me that I could be so evil and call myself a Christian. The Lord mercifully convicted me of it later and I can only hope I never aborted any children the 2 years I was on it. The Lord is so gracious with us…He so quietly worked in the hearts of my dh and I to turn our thinking completely around, not just about the pill but about the whole “birth control mindset.” I never realized how feminist and worldly my thinking regarding children and family planning had been! I wasn’t viewing children or fertility in a Biblical manner. Now I realize the Lord opens and closes the womb, He is the giver and taker of life, He is soveriegn and if we are to trust Him with all areas of our life, that would include children, esp’ly since He calls them blessings and arrows in His Word. I think of it sort of like missionary work. When God calls someone to be a missionary or go into fulltime ministry somehow, that person needs to rely completely on him for the finances and safety and direction. Of course that doesn’t mean they sit around and expect all the resources to fall into their lap but they walk forward by faith trusting He will provide as they walk in obedience to Him. I consider children to be a ministry, a mission (based upon the fact that we are to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord) and if God provides when people cross the ocean to reach lost peoples with the Gospel, I fully believe He can and does provide when we embark upon the ministry of raising godly children for His glory. The thing is, it’s His work and He wants the glory for it. And I have seen Him provide for us with our growing family. When we decided to start trying for a baby, we were not in a financial position to be doing so (my dh did have a job but not a high paying one) and the Lord has provided for us each time a child has come along and we now have 3 beautiful boys and are eagerly awaiting more!
I think the important thing is not so much whether someone uses family planning methods but rather what their mindset in doing so is, which is part of what I think Kelly is trying to point out. A lot of us in the church have been infected with worldly thinking and don’t even realize it. That was the case for me for sure!
Anyways, thanks for letting me share my thoughts. 🙂
Wow Molly, you’ve really got some nerve! Remember, this is Kelly’s blog and she is free to share her opinions here…lol. You seem to be very adversarial. This is HER blog. She’s not shoving her opinions down anyone’s throats, she’s sharing her thoughts on her OWN blog.
Kelly,
Keep up the good work in speaking the truth. If it weren’t for your blog and the Ladies Against Feminism blog, my daughter would most likely not be here today.
She is the first girl born to my husband’s family in twenty some years. And they say it couldn’t be done! The truth is if I continued doing what every other Christian I know does and use birth control pills, she wouldn’t be.
We weren’t trying to get pregnant, but after reading about how the pill works, we were no longer preventing. I guess you can say, we just placed it in God’s hands. We now know His plans differ from ours and His is far superior.
Yes, we have received a lot of unwelcoming comments from family and friends. They all think I need to “space” my children better (I have three under the age of four.) I need to use “wisdom” (you know I must know better than God). And, can we “afford” them (God has give us an increase in income with every birth, coincidence?)
I love your boldness in speaking out. Keep it up.
Rachel
Kelly, on a different note, could you pray for my husband and I, that we would trust God with more biological children? I weaned my 20-month old twins two months ago and started my cycle again, and we then started using condoms.
After reading your recent posts (all of which I’ve *known* already in my heart, but am now hesitant to trust because I’ve had six babies in six years) I talked to my husband tonight about not using bc anymore and would he pray about it, and he gave me that look like I was out of my mind. 🙂 We do want to adopt older children in a year or two, but both of us are just now catching our breath from babies so close together.
Anyway, could you please pray that he and I would just TRUST Him with it and quit trying to “stop” babies from coming?
Thank you,
Donna
Children are a blessing, but is it possible to have too much of a
blessing? Food and “fatness” are described in the Scriptures as a
blessing, but when we are greedy and eat more food that is good for
us, that is gluttony and it is a sin; likewise in the Old Testament
wine is called a blessing, but if we are greedy and seek to
be “blessed” too much, we commit the sin of drunkenness.
Obviously just because a thing is a blessing doesn’t mean that it’s
good to seek it in unlimited quantities — quite the contrary, in
fact. A horse is “without understanding” (Psa 32:9) and if it is not bridled it will founder itself on oats, but humans are supposed to know better.
Could it be that couples who seek to be “blessed” with more children
than they can properly support are also sinning (perhaps doubly so,
because they excuse their child-greed with the presumptious notion
that “God will provide” when, as a natural result of their actions,
they end up with more kids than they can feed without seeking aid
from the government, the community, or the church)?
And something else to consider — in the Old Testament Man is told to
go forth and multiply and FILL the earth; in the New Testament is
found a similar injunction — we are told to preach the Gospel to all nations, so that the people who fill earth may be SAVED. I think that the New Testament command to preach the Gospel follows on the heels of the Old Testament command to procreate and make the people whose descendants would one day hear the Good News — sort of like Part Two follows Part One in a sequence.
Now you might say, “If God is in control of conception, then parents will never have more than
they can take care of for the simple reason that God has control”, but, God ISN’T the only one in control of conception –parents control it too.
Before I go any farther, I guess I ought to make it clear that I’m NOT just talking about artificial birth contro here — I’m also talking about Natural Family Planning, ie, abstaining from sexual intercourse during a woman’s fertile periods, which is flatly condemned by the Quiverfull movement.
Unlike the animals, humans can choose not to be intimate during a woman’s fertile periods. What bothers me about the Quiverfull movement is the insistence that a couple should seek to have as many
children as possible. There are some people who say that ANY attempt to limit conception is a sin, even abstinence during a woman’s fertile times.
As far as I’m concerned, this reduces human beings to the level of animals: cows, pigs, deer and coyotes all have a heat cycle, and God has created them in such a way that they cannot help but breed during the female’s estrus, if given the opportunity.
People are different — a man and his wife can “mate” during the
woman’s estrus or they can abstain until later in her cycle, as seems
prudent. God created humans in His image, with a mind and a will — we
are not ruled by our hormones as are the animals.
Someone on an e-group I read wrote,
“I have seen women who do not breastfeed or severely limit
breastfeeding so they can have as many children in as little time as
possible. They wonder why Child Protective Service is called on them all the time by their neighbors. Well, when your children are running around the neighborhood in March with no shoes on and no coats on and
your toddler is in the middle of the road, that really is not a hard
thing to comprehend.”
So true.
And, other considerations come into play here as well:
When a woman’s husband has a good job, and she can afford to have as
many kids as she wants without resorting to medicaid or foodstamps
(or, welfare – yes, working parents are eligible too, if they have more kids than income), that’s one thing, and everybody praises her in the gates, but just let Mom show up in the supermarket checkout line with nine kids and foodstamps, and the busybodybiddies will be tsk-tsking.
If Mom and kids have dark hair and eyes, they will also be tsk-tsking
about those Mexican Catholic immigrants who are coming here illegally and taking over the country.
If the family is black, they will be muttering words like “welfare
queen”, even if no food stamps are in sight and Mom is wearing a head-
doily and a wedding ring.
And if the Mom is white and the kids are black, better call 911,
because half a dozen Mrs. Busybodybiddies will have just passed out in aisle #5 of the Piggley Wiggley from an old-fashioned attack of the vapors.
For the Christian, God’s Word is the standard (or should be), and anything in it is the truth, the absolute truth, and also undeniable. It may hurt to hear it and really stretch us as we learn to walk in it (Hebrews 4:12), but it should be our absolute standard. The question is, will we be like the wise man that Jesus mentioned who build his house upon this rock, or will we be foolish and build it upon the sand? I am not only referring to birth control (even though I completely agree with Kelly) but to the very idea “we” decide if someone else’s ideas are right. Regardless of the subject, if your ideas and beliefs line up with the Scriptures then they are right! If they contradict or compromise the truths of the Scriptures then they are wrong! This should be a no-brainer for Believers. If my ideas are not in line with God and the Word, then I am wrong, everytime!
I want to have the mind of Christ (“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus” Philippians 2:5) and see everything the way He does. I want to love children and value them the way He does. I want to love Truth the way He does. I want to see things in light of their eternal vs. temperol values the way He does.
May we “approve the things that are excellent” (Philippians 1:10b).
Love in Christ,
Rebekah Hixon
For the Christian, God’s Word is the standard (or should be), and anything in it is the truth, the absolute truth, and also undeniable.
Agreed. So where exactly in God’s Word are we EVER told that trusting God is antithetical to wisely managing our own wombs?
CJ,
Wow, you’re kind of “all over the page” with that one, LOL!
Let me address a few things…one of the statements you made reveals a common misconception about life:
“Obviously just because a thing is a blessing doesn’t mean that it’s
good to seek it in unlimited quantities.”
You compared fertility to food, wine and other material blessings which a person must actively SEEK. As if life were just something we could decide to create ourselves. (We can only prevent, never create.)
My point during this whole debate is not the microscopic splitting hairs of what is acceptable and what is not, but the overarching mindset of the blessing of children.
We don’t “seek out blessings”. To think that we are able to open the womb is, in my opinion, arrogant, as I started this debate with.
I don’t mean that as a personal condescenion toward anyone, but as a wrong attitude we’ve adopted about Who is really in charge of life.
See, God gives us wisdom…short, limited wisdom. But we give ourselves WAY too much credit.
Deciding to prevent a life is much different than deciding to buy a new car. How can I possibly have the wisdom and foresight to see down the road to be able to determine whether another eternal life should be allowed to exist?
I can *seek* a car; I can’t do anything for a life except obey the marital protocol 😉 (BTW, there are very specific instructions about abstaining.)
Once we comprehend that life is in a category of its own, separate from food, and wine, and cars and houses, and a budget, and college, etc….then we approach it from the right perspective.
God said be fruitful and multiply…he never revoked that command.
He said He opens and closes the womb.
He said he formed us in the secret parts and we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Don’t get hung up on the details, and please don’t sell my God short. If he takes care of the birds of the air, how much more will he feed His own children?!
And what do I say about Him when I question His ability to provide for a life He created? Or to be my strength in weakness? Or to just have me walk in faith through something hard?
Oh how He yearns for us to trust Him, and to believe we were not given enough wisdom to override the incredible, miraculous process of the miracle of life.
God does open and close the womb, but I think that for young, healthy women, “open” is the default setting — if a young, healthy woman has sex at the appropriate time, she will concieve, unless either God intervenes or something else happens to prevent it.
Similarly, for older women, “closed” is the default setting. A woman past menopause can have sex every day, and no baby will result, unless either God intervenes or she has a donated embryo implanted in her womb.
And another thing — I’m not trying to be rude or difficult in saying this, but if only God opens the womb, what about all the unwed mothers? I know of unmarried young women who got pregnant on purpose — who deliberately engaged in illicit, sinful sexual relations for the sole purpose of becoming pregnant.
If
A.)it is always God’s will when a conception takes place
and
B.)sin was an integral part of some cases of conception,
then
C.)it would necessarily have been God’s will for sin to be committed in those cases, so that those specific acts of conception should occur…
…and that’s hogwash, and blasphemous hogwash to boot.
CJ,
Actually, I still believe a conceived life is always a blessing. “God brings rain on the just and the unjust”.
It’s actually very poor theology to deduct “it’s God’s will for sin to be committed in the event a life is conceived in sin.”
?? That just doesn’t add up. And to say that a young, healthy woman has an “open by default” setting is
quite an assumption. Tell that to the women whose wombs God has closed.
Older women who can’t bear? Yes, God says no eventually! But it’s always Him who ordains life. Always, even in those cases we don’t understand.
I had a child out of wedlock. Was encouraged to have an abortion. I was in sin. It was a VERY difficult road. But the overarching wisdom of God in allowing conception can be clearly seen in my incredible daughter, my right hand, by jewel. He blessed me anyway–right in the midst of my slavery to sin!
“Does the BCP cause changes in the lining of the uterus that could be detrimental to the newly conceived child’s ability to implant?”
“It would appear so. Since we know that the birth control pill sometimes allows ovulation and conception to occur, unfavorable changes in the endometrium could make it difficult for the preborn child to implant and would support the conclusion that the BCP is an abortifacient.”
Dr. Chris Kahlenborn
From: http://www.ccli.org/contraception/mdexplains.php
“And to say that a young, healthy woman has an “open by default” setting is quite an assumption. Tell that to the women whose wombs God has closed.”
It’s the only sensible assumption one can make, and it’s the very same assumption that we make when it comes to cats, dogs, livestock, birds, etc — everyone knows that if your cat gets out when she’s in season and a tom finds her, you’ll be looking for homes for kittens a few months later – it’s how God has set up nature to run. Similarly, when a young, healthy woman has sex at the right time, she will probably concieve, and if she doesn’t, it’s a sign that either she, her partner, or the baby itself wasn’t healthy that’s also it’s how God has set up nature to run.
If “open” were not the default setting in young, healthy women, it would not be considered a sign of something amiss when young women FAIL to conceive.
(And, if “closed” were not the default setting for post-menopausal women, it would not be considered a miracle when they DO concieve.)
http://www.trdd.org/ETHMEDE.HTM#NEND
http://www.ccli.org/nfp/contraception/pill.php
(This article has a ton of references at the bottom that would provide additional resources for anyone really looking to find truth.)
CJ,
I guess the real question should be, isn’t “open” a good setting? See, we’re so jaded in the way we view children that the thoughts of having more than a few make us panic.
He set us on “open” for a reason…that’s how He wanted it. Did it ever occur to you that God may actually desire that His people have lots of children? That maybe He made us to reproduce often because He wanted us to?
(“And why did He make them one? Because He desires unbridled passion without the “fear” of having children?” No…”He desires godly offspring.”
Did we just decide the last 40 years that God didn’t know what He was doing with our bodies, so we need to help Him out?
I do not appreciate Mollys constant turmoil she causes on this blog. It makes me not even want to read here because she is always engaging Kelly into a battle. If you don’t believe in what Kelly has to say, leave. Write your opinions on your own blog where you can have as much fighting and contention as you want. I am so sick of it here.
“How can I possibly have the wisdom and foresight to see down the road to be able to determine whether another eternal life should be allowed to exist?…. We can only prevent, never create”
Kelly, I actually think that these statements kind of limit God to a certain extent. If God wants you to have a baby, you will have a baby, no matter what birth control you are on. Similarly if He doesn’t – nothing’s gonna happen! We CAN’T prevent life. Using birth control still means it’s in His hands. Birth control is like a dam of twigs against the Amazon compared to His power! And I think it’s possible for people to use birth control but still have a Godly and positive outlook to children. To me it’s like this:
“And what do I say about Him when I question His ability to provide for a life He created?”
Of course He can – but that doesn’t mean that we are excused from our duty to be good stewards. To be honest, this argument could be used to justify a mother not putting seat belts on her children in the car – hey, if God wants to protect them, they’ll be fine! I think we need to take a good look at our resources – physical and material – before deciding if a child is right right now, praying hard about it – not just at first but all along – and recognising that ultimately, God’s will will be done.
CG, the last part of your post affected me greatly. It’s hard for white mamas of many – how much harder do our Hispanic and black sisters have it? There is so much hardness, pride, and prejudice out there. Thanks for the reminder. I’m praying for them.
In regards to the point made about gluttony and drunkeness and greed being compared to seeking too many children…from a Biblical standpoint, overeating, overdrinking and greed for riches are all specifically pointed out in the Bible as sins to avoid but I can’t find mention anywhere of a “sin of seeking too many children”. If that was a sin, I would think it would mentioned just like the others. The only possible sin I could see is not being content with what God has chosen to give you or envying the children others have but as far as allowing God to bless you with the children He desires to bless you with and acknowledging His soveriegnty over the womb and trusting His infinite wisdom as opposed to your own finite wisdom, I just don’t see the sin in that Biblically. All married couples enjoy God’s gift of sex and there are no limits set on that either (there is an allowance made for a limit in 1 corinthians I belive it is, but not a command) but when it comes to children we tend to be like, “I’ll just take the sex, thanks.”
Dana, not providing for your family is a sin, though (it means you are ‘worse than a heathen’) and so is not being a good steward of your resources.
Like, there’s no biblical verse to say ‘Thou shalt never quit your job’. But quitting a job when you have nothing to fall back on and support your wife and children with is a sin – you aren’t providing for them. Similarly I think it is defying the biblical command to be responsible with what we are blessed with to knowingly seek out a situation where you cannot support yourself. It’s not ‘not trusting God’ – it’s like the man in the story who denied the car, the boat, the helicopter in the storm because ‘God would save him’ – we have to take responsibility.
Answering two posts at once here:
“I guess the real question should be, isn’t “open” a good setting? See, we’re so jaded in the way we view children that the thoughts of having more than a few make us panic.”
AND,
“In regards to the point made about gluttony and drunkeness and greed being compared to seeking too many children…from a Biblical standpoint, overeating, overdrinking and greed for riches are all specifically pointed out in the Bible as sins to avoid but I can’t find mention anywhere of a “sin of seeking too many children”……
All married couples enjoy God’s gift of sex and there are no limits set on that either…..but when it comes to children we tend to be like, “I’ll just take the sex, thanks.”
Yes, I think that OPEN is a great setting, LOL!
From a human standpoint, it is a lot easier for a couple with lots of children to abstain, than for a couple with NO children to seek divine or medical intervention in order to open the womb; and I think that God had this in mind when He designed us.
When a couple has as many children as they can afford to feed and raise properly, they should practice self-control and abstain from sex during the woman’s fertile periods. This is a very old teaching of the church, by the way — in the very early church, couples were ENCOURAGED to abstain from sex periodically in order to achieve control over their physical desires, just as they were encouraged to fast from time to time.
As for the comment, “I can’t find mention anywhere of a “sin of seeking too many children”, I think that that is because the Quiverfull idea that couples should have as many children as possible (whether or not they can afford to feed them and even if it means resorting to unnatural means, such as curtailing breastfeeding to bring on ovulation) is a relatively new take on the sin of presumption, dating from about the 1980’s (presumption is the sin of “tempting God”, with the idea that you can do any sort of foolish thing you like with the idea that God will protect you from the natural consequences of your actions, and it usually involves citing scripture to prove that God promised to protect you from said foolish actions – when Satan tempted Jesus to throw Himself down from the temple because angels would bear Him up, he was tempting Jesus to commit presumption.)
Back in Biblical times and in third world countries today, want and starvation were commonplace. Children were seen as a blessing, and since birth control was unheard of, large families were common, but women breastfed children until the age of three or even longer, and couples who were “well-blessed” practiced periodic abstinance, just as they did in the United States until the beginning of the twentieth century. No couple in their right minds who already had several children would have PURPOSELY used extreme or unnatural measures (such as curtailing breastfeeding) to have more children than they otherwise naturally could, or would have PURPOSELY sought to have more children than they could afford to feed, with the idea that “God will provide” — common sense and sound church teaching were proof against such foolishness.
Unfortunately, commonsense is not so common anymore, and sound church teaching is getting hard to find too, with the decline of the traditional denominations and in the wake of all the pop-theology and new-fangled religion being promoted nowadays by bright young things who ought to still be learning at the feet of their elders…
Claire,
VERY interesting, a contradiction you made…
First you say,
“If God wants you to have a baby, you will have a baby, no matter what birth control you are on.”
and then,
“this argument could be used to justify a mother not putting seat belts on her children in the car – hey, if God wants to protect them, they’ll be fine!”
You’re fine with doing what you can to prevent children and believing God is powerful enough to override it, but you think it’s ridiculous to stop wearing seat belts.
I think you proved your own point, you just have to see how it applies to BC.
Believing God will override BC (which He sometimes does) is like belieiving I can jump off a building but if it’s God’s will, I won’t die. Is He powerful enough to save me? Of course!!!
Does He just override my stupidity? Usually not.
So, we’re back to being forced to answer the question…is birth control a neutral issue? Does God have an opinion? How does He view life? Etc.
Being a good steward of our material possessions is what we are commanded to do.
But here’s the rub…children are not material possessions. Pregnancy is not a sickness to be carefully monitored or limited. He MADE our bodies to function the way they function. He never made any allowance for us to alter the NORMAL functioning of that.
Imagine God creating His masterpiece (us), then having us turn around and say, “Well, I’m sure you didn’t mean to make me this way…thankfully the medical field as created a drug to undo what You did.”
(In fact, going back to medical arguments, the more children a woman has, the less her risk of certain cancers. CONVERSELY, the more time she ovulates in her life, the higher those risks are. Just a coincident?)
Just want to challenge you!!! 😉
I went through years of this question/answer. Does God have an opinion about the way we view and handle life?
CJ,
I think I may address some of your comments in a new post…because they are so common and need to be addressed in detail.
For now, though, I think you can leave the insertions about “women purposely not breastfeeding to get pregnant as fast as they can” out of this discussion.
No one has remotely suggested this, and while it may happen with some women, it is rare.
It’s hardly ever effective to use RARE circumstances to support a general argument.
CJ
In your reference to young unwed mothers and bearing children as a result of their sin, as Kelly has already testified to, the children are still a blessing.
My husband and I became pregnant before we were married. I grew up in a Christian home, he in a semi Catholic home. Neither of us were living according to our upbringing. But God used our sin to bring us back to him through the life and ultimately the death of our first son.
His very short life accomplished so much for God’s kingdom. My husband and I are now both born again Christians. I can only guess how many other lives have been affected by my son’s life and death. (I was surprised to see how many people attend a funeral for a stillborn child, and how many heard the gospel message for the first time at his funeral.)
Oh, how at the time I did not want to be pregnant, but how vastly different my life would have been if I never was.
Never doubt God’s goodness or His wisdom, they are far superior than ours.
Rachel
Claire,
Not providing for your family, i.e. refusing to work, is not at all the same as working honestly and trusting God to provide for His own.
Jesus rebuked our lack of faith about His ability to provide for our needs.
And if Jesus told those in the Bible days to stop worrying about their life, and since artificial BC did not exist, and since we can find NO place where the people were commanded to “be responsible”, or practice some form of bc, we can assume He fully intended to provide for the children He gave to families.
Here’s a fact to chew on..
Go back and read the commands He gave to the Israelites when they were OPPRESSED, POOR, and in CAPTIVITY…plights we’ve never come close to.
He told them in the midst of all their poverty to have more children!
How can we assert today, then, that we are being irresponsible for having too many children?
God is more than able to provide FOR THOSE WHO TRUST HIM.
This is where I think we become arrogant…thinking we know what the future holds.
Taking that theory, what if I only have two children and then stop because I can’t afford anymore. (What does that mean anyway???) Then tomorrow, my husband loses his job, and we are left in a difficult financial position. Was I irresponsible for the two I had?
See, this LIFE thing is just too big for our finite wisdom to figure out.
“For now, though, I think you can leave the insertions about “women purposely not breastfeeding to get pregnant as fast as they can” out of this discussion.”
This is not a rare thing, Kelly. Quiverfull is about far more than not using birth control — it’s about Christians becoming the majority religion in the world having and raising Christian children, rather than by spreading the gospel and converting the unbelievers, as Jesus commanded us to do — and with these goals in mind it teaches that all attempts at spacing children, including periodic abstinence are sinful, and teaches that couples should actively seek to one-up nature and have as many children as possible, with the idea that God will manage the consequences.
This is new-fangled pop religion, pure and simple, and it borders on heresy.
CJ
Your references to the Quiverful movement I believe are misplaced. Kelly’s post is about our views on children, not a particular movement or group.
If people in this group practice as you say this could be a discussion for another time. However, I don’t believe Kelly has said that her goal and everyone else should try to have as many kids as possible. Instead being open to the kids God has planned for you.
CJ,
Depending on who you are referencing as “the QF movement”, I think I can safely say that you are using an exaggeration to support your theory.
I would be considered QF by some, although I don’t subscribe to any group’s agenda.
I know LOTS of women who receive all the children God gives them (which would classify them as QF) and NONE of them purposely try to have more children.
That’s really the whole point of where this debate started…we acknowledge that God is sovereign; we enjoy the blessing of marriage, we believe that God’s FIRST command was to evangelize and raise disciples through our own children, and we rest upon His divinely created model.
CJ,
Depending on who you are referencing as “the QF movement”, I think I can safely say that you are using an exaggeration to support your theory.
I would be considered QF by some, although I don’t subscribe to any group’s agenda.
I know LOTS of women who receive all the children God gives them (which would classify them as QF) and NONE of them purposely try to have more children.
That’s really the whole point of where this debate started…we acknowledge that God is sovereign; we enjoy the blessing of marriage, we believe that God’s FIRST command was to evangelize and raise disciples through our own children, (Deut. 6) and we rest upon His divinely created model, joyfully accepting the blessings He gives…whether it is 18 or none.
“He MADE our bodies to function the way they function. He never made any allowance for us to alter the NORMAL functioning of that.”
Well, Kelly, He made us so that for the majority of the time, we are not fertile. We are only fertile for a small and predictable window. He didn’t make us like some animals, who cannot resist intercourse at fertile times, not did he make us so that every act of intercourse can result in pregnancy. So, to me, that means that we can work within God’s design… I went to convent school for a time, and I have a big problem with the Catholic belief that, essentially, every act of intercourse is for baby-making (don’t get me wrong – the nuns who taught me were GREAT mostly and I learned a grew A LOT – I’m not trying to Catholic-bash! But this, I don’t agree with.) I don’t see that in God’s design for us. In fact, the more I learn about the amazing bodies God designed for us, the more astonished I am!
And, I’m afraid I don’t agree there was a contradiction in what I said earlier 🙂
“Believing God will override BC (which He sometimes does) is like belieiving I can jump off a building but if it’s God’s will, I won’t die. Is He powerful enough to save me? Of course!!!”
It might help me to explain more if I remind you of what you said earlier: that we have the power to prevent, not create. I disagree. It is JUST as wrong to pretend we can stop as that we can create. GOD is in charge of our souls and the souls of our children, and HE has decided on their creation. We CANNOT prevent that which He wants to create.
The seat belt analogy, in my mind, is this (apologies for the unpleasant nature of it! I would have used something gentler if I’d thought ahead!) – if God wants to call my children to him in a car accident, my seat belts are meaningless. But I should still wear a seat belt. If my husband and I are jobless, penniless, and ill, we should not seek to have a child whose birth we cannot even afford. God will look after us if it’s His plan, but failing to take responsibility for the things He’s given us is not excuseable. And it’s NOT lack of faith to be a responsible steward.
But I hear you about the Israelites, and the need to have more faith in God’s provision generally. I just think that there is a point when it isn’t faith in God, it’s an excuse for irresponsibility.
I think we often have the tendency to view children as something we acquire for ourselves, for our own enjoyment or benefit and while we can and should delight in our children, there’s a larger purpose at work here. Children aren’t for us, they are for God’s glory! God wants us to have children so we can raise them to be godly. No, we are never guaranteed the children will turn out godly but we are to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Children are a ministry, a mission, just the same as telling those in the world about salvation. God never asks us to do something He doesn’t provide for. I also think God doesn’t necessarily provide for something we’re not doing. I have parents-in-law who were missionaries who watched God provide for them as they walked in obedience to Him. My husband had a job when we conceived our first child, he worked hard and the Lord has provided side jobs and pay increases for him as we have continued to have children. And you know what, that brings glory to the Lord! It shows He can and does provide for His children. It’s not irresponsible for us to continue having children b/c God is the One who creates them! I don’t consider it to be the same thing as buying a boat or an extra car or house we can’t afford. Children are eternal souls created by God, not possessions acquired for our selfish enjoyment.
I know a lot of people feel it’s presumptuous to expect the Lord to provide for us as we continue to have children. They feel it’s the same as crossing the street without looking both ways b/c, well, God can protect me. I don’t look at it that way b/c God makes it clear in His Word that He is in charge of life and the womb…that’s His jurisdiction. We are His instruments to do His will. I am here for Him to do with as He pleases and that includes all the members of my body. He created my womb in working order, why should I stand in the way of that? A lot of people assume that when people talk about God providing for them, they mean they believe in just floating along doing as they please and expecting God to just take care of everything anyways. That’s not what I mean. I know God wants us to work and make wise, responsible decisions with the resources He has given us, so I say all I’ve said with that in mind.
Claire,
Again, I’ll be addressing this very topic in a post by itself. It’s BIG. I’ve addressed it before, btw, in the archives.
I appreciate the questions/challenges/though-provoking angles.
We studied and considered all these details for years, in and out, before we decided to stop taking control of my womb…I have lots of thoughts on why this thinking is erroneous. I guess sometimes God just has to open the eyes of our hearts.
Oh ugh Molly!!! LOL….You are completely missing Kelly’s entire POINT, and instead want to nitpick and argue. The fact that women have written here and thanked Kelly for posting these thoughts, and shared how it has changed their own views and practices, shows that what she is doing is ‘appropriate’. You’re throwing around lots of baiting questions for Kelly, here’s one for you: since when did your reasoning become smarter than God’s?
As far as not having children when you don’t have the resources to handle them (what does that mean exactly, anyway? How much money does one have to be making to be considered “responsible” in this area? What if circumstances change for the worse AFTER the children are born?)…we wouldn’t have any of our children if we waited for our outside conditions to be better. We were moving in with my parents because of financial difficulties when I found out we were pregnant with #4. How’s that for timing?! You can imagine how thrilled my family was. Well we are on our own again, doing MUCH better financially, and #4 is 10 days old and laying here next to me, absolutely perfect and beautiful, and I can’t imagine if we had blocked his life from happening. Because of money. Blech.
I believe God DOES respect our will in many cases. If we are taking steps to actively prevent children, MOST of the time He will respect that. Do you really want to take on that kind of responsibility? Because I don’t.
Dana, thank you for sharing. I like that. You make a lot of good points.
So having read through the last couple of posts and comments, I just want to clarify …
I have nine children. From the outside, I look like someone who submitted my womb to the Lord because I understand the sacredness of life and that might have been the tiniest amount of that in my motivation. Unfortunately, I think my true motivation was some weird idea that I had to prove my faith and trust in God, I had to earn God’s love and approval, So, I had 10 pregnancies in fifteen years.
Sometime between the 8th and the 9th live birth, I was bombarded with God’s extravagant grace and realized that nothing I could do would make God love me more and nothing I could do would make God love me less. My husband and I decided that we wanted to finish raising our children in sanity and wholeness. I had my tubes tied.
So, what I am wondering is in light of this statement:
Let couples make their personal decisions before the Lord with fear and trembling. But not until their thinking is right…”and how will they know unless someone tells them?”
Would you be able to say that my husband and I have made our decision before God with fear and trembling and emerged with God’s blessing on not continuing to have an open womb? Or do you like another commenter, weeping because I have closed my womb from the Lord?
I don’t even know why I am asking … it’s not like your answer changes anything for me. I walk in God’s complete will and blessing for my life. I am sure of that.
Honestly, if you answer is that I risk some amount of condemnation or ill will for my decision, in some weird way, I am ok with that. At least it would be consistent with your convictions.
On another note, I really don’t see a child hating culture. Sure there are individual cases but other than my mother, who was mostly concerned for my physical and emotional health, I never experienced any negative reaction to have all my children. Sure, there was the humorous over dramatic counting when they were all younger and we went places together … but we just laughed. We ARE quite a bit group and growing now as they are getting older and starting families of their own.
Ok, enough said, I think.
Grace and Peace . . .
Cynthia
The only point I want to make is that while some say, “What about seatbelts?” or “If you think this way about ‘controlling the womb’, do you feel the same way about taking medication to save a life? Taking medicine is preventing what God allowed, after all, right?”
There’s some validity to the questions, however, God is a God of LIFE. Wearing seatbelts and taking medication to prevent sickness and possible death is honoring the life He gave us – protecting it, because it is the Spirit’s temple!
Just as it is wrong to take pills to end our lives, it is wrong to take pills to prevent life inside our wombs. DEATH.
Just as it is good to take pills that might save our lives, it is good to allow life in our wombs whenever God sees fit. LIFE.
Yes, even if we take herbs or medicines to help heal us, we still may die. But it is that we did try to care for our bodies and keep them for His glory that He is pleased. He loves life.
We can all agree that He loves life, yes?
“Persecution is when people KILL you for your faith, it’s not when you have a different opinion than your brother or sister.”
According to Webster’s New World Dictionary, persecute means to afflict constantly so as to injure or distress, as for reasons of religion, race, etc. Dictionary.com defines persecute as: 1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
2. to annoy or trouble persistently.
Molly,
You say that you want to have “good strong discussions without everyone claiming persecution” and “strong serious conversations” without attacking anyone. I, personally, love a good discussion and I imagine many of Kelly’s readers do as well. Some of your comments (past and present), in my opinion, come across as aggressive and slightly hostile. Please don’t ask me to quote you which ones though, because I do not have time to go through the archives. Perhaps I have read a certain tone in your comments that you didn’t intend.
I agree with Kelly that you are very good at surrounding your stinging words with *hugs* and *winks* so it appears to be sweet. To me, that just seems like a slap in the face.
Whether your comments are meant to be divisive or not, many of them have been taken that way.
Kelly,
I grew up in the church and NEVER heard one woman talk about praying with their husband concerning their family size. (Most of the families at this church have 2 or 3 children.) Once I had my first child, I started getting the questions “how many children are you going to have?” or “how far apart are you going to space your children?” I wish someone would have been there to challenge me to trust God for our children…..and not assume control of this part of my life
I truly appreciate your blog. It has greatly inspired me! Thank you!!
Carolyn
“We need to be speaking about the sacredness of life, and Who is really in control, etc.”
This brings to mind something that I have thought about for a long time. As Christians who believe in the sacredness of life, are we willing to give a home to a pregnant, unwed 15 year old who has decided to keep her baby or perhaps place that child up for adoption? Are we willing to help financially those families who are willing to adopt children that are exposed to drugs or alcohol? Are we willing to adopt a child of a different race because no home can be found in this country for a child based on the color of his skin, or the fact that it is a male child? If we believe that God is the giver or life, are we willing to sacrifice our life for the life of another. I am a mom who has adopted 5 children. I know what it is like to watch a baby tremor for a month and sleep for only an hour a day due to cocaine exposure. I know what it is like for people to say to me, “It would have been nicer for the birthmom to abort that baby than to ruin his life by drinking.” Now, I don’t personally believe that, but I would love to see more Christians that disagree with abortion start sacrificing for the birthmoms, adoptive families, and the babies!! I love adoption, and I have a deep respect for each of my birthmoms for carrying their babies. However, most of the birthmoms took drugs, drank, or smoked and have profoundly affected the lives of my children. I wonder if Christians would reach out in love to these precious birthmoms and help them during their pregnancy if maybe we could see a change.
Just some more food for thought.
In His love,
Amanda
Just as it is good to take pills that might save our lives, it is good to allow life in our wombs whenever God sees fit. LIFE.
I am for life. But I don’t think that being for life means that you must allow your womb to be as fertile as it can possibly be. Sometimes doing that results in outcomes that are detrimental to life. Sometimes having an open womb means death, and lots of it.
Andrea Yates for example (who was a QF mom, pressured to keep having babies even though she didn’t feel that she could handle it). The mom in Ghana, for example, who can’t feed the kids that she has, and who needs every ounce of strength that she has to try and keep them alive, though even that is highly doubtful. Women who are genetically going to give birth to babies who will only make it for a very short time. Women who feel called of God to things other than motherhood. (Was Mother Theresa wrong for not becoming a mother? She was VERY pro-life, though non ever came out of her womb. Being for life is a HUGE WIDE thing, not at all confined to non-family-planning wombs).
Life is good wherever it is. We should seek to help nurture it, and I’m sure we can agree on that. 🙂 But being for life is NOT being for every *possible* life (otherwise we should refrain from nursing so that ALL of us can get pregnant as often as possible): it’s being for life in general, those already alive JUST AS MUCH, if not more so, as those not yet concieved.
I think it’s GREAT to feel called to have your womb open. I really do! I just don’t think it’s good when we tell people that they are for death UNLESS they keep their womb open. Because that’s just not true and it’s putting a burden of condemnation on their backs that the Scriptures do not put.
Some of your comments (past and present), in my opinion, come across as aggressive and slightly hostile.
I am sorry and hope you will accept my apology. I will do more to try and work on my tone. It’s hard to talk about such serious issues with gentleness, but it really is important and I know for a FACT it’s an area I could stand more growth in. (You’d be shocked at how far our God has brought me, though–lol). 🙂 Thank you.
I wonder if Christians would reach out in love to these precious birthmoms and help them during their pregnancy if maybe we could see a change.
What a good word.
To me, what this woman shared is *just* as “for life” as anything else. I think adopting, fostering, and otherwise reaching out to life in this hurting world is just as much pro-life as having a lot of babies.
The thing is that we all need to find where *our* personal calling is—-what piece of humanity am *I* called to touch in the name of my Jesus? If I am having baby after baby, I simply will NOT have the ability to concentrate on anything else (with excellence, that is).
If having baby after baby is my calling, then yipee! I will raise those children well-loved, knowing that this is the primary way I am called to minister to life as my God’s hands and feet.
BUT if I feel called to go to the prisons and work there with those who are broken and hurting, THEN having baby after baby is *not* going to be the best way for ME to minister to life, because it’s not the way *I* am called to nurture and heal and love in this world.
When we tell ALL women that they must be having babies non-stop, we take their energies away from helping other lives that are already in existance. Being a mommy is AWESOME. But it’s not the only way to be pro-life.
Where are all the Scriptures where God tells women to not touch their wombs and that family planning is 99.9% a sin? Not anywhere. But where are the Scriptures where God says that those who exemplify His heart are those who reach out to the widow and the orphan? THOSE Scriptures are ALL OVER the Bible.
I really am very pro-life. I just have a very wide definition for life. It’s more than just potential babies. Life is blessed, wherever it is, and we need to give eachother the freedom to be pro-life in the area that the Spirit is directing us to be.
With Warmth,
Molly
Kelly,
Why are you deleting all of my comments?
Kelly,
If you are going to delete all of my comments in the past three posts, you have that right. But please do edit the post you wrote so that it more accurately reflects what I do believe, because what you say my theory is is not accurate. I don’t believe we should be silent—I think talking about it is great. I’ve simply said I think we should be *respectful.* Though my words are gone, so there’s no record of any of that, now.
This is the third time I’ve requested that you edit what you say I believe. I expect this will be deleted as well. I would ask you to consider what is motivating you to do so. ? How is it that I’m this amazingly threatening???
I’m not angry at you at all, Kelly. (Frustrated at times, particularly when you get busy with the delete button, okay, yeah, a little bit. But angry? No. Actually, I had a long drive early this morning and spent some of it praying for you, that God would richly bless you, and I really really really meant that!). 🙂
Kelly, is it okay to delete all my words while purposefully misrepresenting me? I’ve respectfully asked you to correct your statements that you made about my beliefs in this post. Why do you feel it is appropriate to silence me while purposely misprepresenting me?
You just wrote a post about respect, Kelly, wondering why people don’t respect others anymore. Will you do me the honor of respecting me, even as we disagree?
Love,
Molly
Molly,
I am not opposed to commenters who are in disagreement with me (as evidenced by the many opposing comments listed.) But your comments make people not want to read the blog. And that’s not the kind of blog I want to have.
They also take up way too much of my mental energy because of their nature.
I understand FULLY where you are coming from. You are here to try to “free” people, and help them find what you think you have found.
Which is great, if you want to do that on your blog.
Your spiritual views are very different from mine, which ends up causing strife, not objective debate.
I hope you understand.
Molly,
I will delete that part of the post, or edit it.
However, you must know that what you are asking me to do is precisely what I feel every time you post.
That you misrepresent what I say. You have consistently done that. So while I think it’s a bit of a paradox that you don’t want me to misrepresent you (which I didn’t think I did), you are OK with doing the same.
A few excerpts from Wikipedia about the Quiverfull movevment that contradict some accusations made here. There may be some extreme people out there, but in general this is what quiverfull is about.
(Sorry about the length.)
Quiverfull is a movement among conservative evangelical Protestant Christian couples chiefly in the United States, but with some adherents in Canada,[1] Australia, New Zealand, England, and elsewhere.[2] Its viewpoint is to eagerly receive children as blessings from God,[2][3][4][5] eschewing all forms of birth control, including natural family planning and sterilization
Obedience to God
The core motivation expressed by Quiverfull authors and adherents is a desire to be obedient to God’s commands in the Bible. Among these commands, “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:22; 9:7), “behold, children are a gift of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3), and passages showing God acting to open and close the womb (Genesis 20:18, 29:31, 30:22; 1 Samuel 1:5-6; Isaiah 66:9) are interpreted as giving basis for their view. Quiverfull adherents typically maintain that their philosophy is first about an open, accepting and obedient attitude toward the possibility of birthing children. Within the view, this attitude may result in many, few or even no children, because God Himself maintains sole provenance over conception and birth. The duty of the Quiverfull adherent is only to maintain an “open willingness” to joyfully receive and not thwart however many children God chooses to bestow. Contraception in all its forms are seen as inconsistent with this attitude and are thus entirely avoided, as is abortion.
Some of the beliefs held among Quiverfull adherents have been held among various Christians during prior eras of history. Initially, all Christian movements opposed the use of birth control. As birth control methods advanced during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, most Christian movements issued official statements against their use.
Quiverfull adherents maintain that God “opens and closes the womb” of a woman on a case-by-case basis, and that attempts to regulate fertility are a subjugation of divine power. Thus, the key practice of a Quiverfull married couple is to not use any form of birth control and to maintain continual “openness to children”, to the possibility of conception, during routine sexual intercourse irrespective of timing of the month during the ovulation cycle.
Quiverfull adherents advocate for child spacing through breastfeeding, so return of fertility after childbirth could be delayed by lactational amenorrhea, although the method is not certain.
Dana,
After reading through the comments again, I really wish you had a blog!
You have such insightful things to say. You say them with grace as well. (Much like Kelly!)
God’s blessings.
All I can say is that I wish I had someone like Kelly standing boldly for the truth about having/preventing more children. After 2 complicated births we were *highly* recommended to no longer have children. We were devastated. We went to counsel with our then Pastor, who encouraged us to have a vasectomy (as he had one also). As much as we felt in our hearts it wasn’t right, being young in the Lord, we took his advice. I cried the entire day of the procedure. My gut was telling me no, but I thought it was just me. We went ahead with the procedure, and have always regretted it. Years later I learned of God’s plan for the womb, and we were heartbroken. We have repented, but so often my heart and arms ache for more children. I wish someone was there to boldly proclaim the truth to me. It is with a humble, repentant heart that I share this. Ministries like this and Above Rubies are fantastic, and every women should hear the truth about children, because it isn’t happening in most pulpits. I can’t change what we did, but I fully support and proclaim the truth I know now. God is good, and I often pray He can overcome our circumstances. I am grateful for His grace and forgiveness. I pray that through our children, we can have a quiverfull. So Kelly, thank you for bodly taking a stand for the truth!
Not in response to this post (series) per se, but in relation to what “QF” people say or don’t say…
Kelly said: For now, though, I think you can leave the insertions about “women purposely not breastfeeding to get pregnant as fast as they can” out of this discussion.
No one has remotely suggested this, and while it may happen with some women, it is rare.
I’ve been subscribed to the QF e-mail list for quite a while now (OK, since January ’07), and I can assure you that taking measures to get “pregnant as fast as you can” is NOT an unheard-of or rare topic on that list.
It seems the question typically comes from a younger mom, a couple who have trouble conceiving, or a couple newly convicted about being QF: “Is it OK if we don’t abstain for the Dr. recommended 6 weeks postpartum?” Based on other questions posed in the same e-mails (like “how soon can I start weaning over to a bottle to increase the chances of our fertility returning sooner?”), I’m left making the inference that *someone somewhere* in the greater (stricter?) QF movement is indeed teaching that for a couple to be truly QuiverFull they must be actively trying to conceive at every opportunity.
Thankfully, there are older (Titus 2!) women on the list who try to gently recommend that being QF is more about truly letting God have control and less about proving our willingness to expand our quivers by “helping God out,” and that part of being QF entails nourishing the children we’ve already been given by bf-ing for as long as the current baby wants.
But as I said, this is almost completely OT from Kelly’s post, so I shall slip away quietly. 😉
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