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Unbelievable. The feminist “bleh” that fell from this woman’s mouth was appalling. By her definition that Dr. Baucham’s interpretation of Scripture is “boxy” and narrow-minded”, the Bible can be anything we want it to be.
One must ask the question…”why do we want to be called Christians if we’re not willing to obey His commands”?
If the world is wondering if Christians struggle with hyprocrisy, we are about to remove all doubt.
I agree with Dr. Baucham…these are frightening times, indeed. Thank you, Dr. Baucham, for being a voice crying in the wilderness. They didn’t listen to Jeremiah and the other prophets either.
33 comments
Wow, is she supposed to be a Christian??
I’ll admit, I’m still really torn about how the Lord would have me vote.
No, I don’t agree with McCain’s stance. No, I don’t agree with a woman taking that role.
On the other hand, I don’t want a possible Muslim being President.
Would the Lord have us use our privelege to vote to be able to keep someone that would allow so much destruction an opportunity to hurt America?
He is in control of all, but He has also allowed us today to be involved and take a stand.
Not that McCain’s stance is right, but Obama’s is terrifying! Especially with 3 new judges coming up.
Do I not owe it to my children to do everything the Lord has given me to do to keep such a man from becoming President?
There will never be someone that is 100% perfect, 100% in line with God’s Word.
And honestly, are we not simply handing over our vote to Obama if we failed to vote, or voted for someone that doesn’t have any business running and taking votes from the most conservative party???
It always boils down to Democrats and Republicans, and I’ve never understood why anyone else bothers running or throwing away so much money.
Do they ever really make a difference? I’ve never seen that they have – they just make Christians to appear to be more of a mockery among the nation.
I personally would’ve loved Huckabee to have won, but he didn’t. At least he ran Republican and didn’t hurt the main parties by running on another ticket.
Sorry to be debating so many topics, Kelly. 🙂 I’m not sure exactly what God will lead me to do yet – but I do believe I’m leaning stronger to voting the better of the two.
Otherwise, it’s letting the worst win.
Praise the Lord that someone who is standing for truth is finally making it in the news!!!
That was very entertaining!
🙂
OK, I’m feeling a little post-partum but that just grieved me and made me cry. Voddie Baucham a sexist? Nothing could be further from the truth. I’ve had the privilege of watching this man speak, of hearing countless messages online and have met his son (who is outstanding from what I learned during a very brief conversation.) God. Help. Us. if this is what America thinks is right. Can’t anyone see that sometimes people have to choose the lesser of two evils, and if that involves a woman possibly serving our country, they will still choose that over a pro-abortion pseudo-celebrity? Sheesh.
I really appreciated his gentleness when explaining the Bible’s views. I appreciate, also, that he did not debate back when called a “sexist” even by a fellow Christian, just like Jesus would’ve done. What a Godly man! Thanks for sharing this.
I was kind of surprised by the other “evangelicals” position being dictated by the “culture” and not the Bible. Although I shouldn’t be at this point. She seemed very ungrounded. Although, it is true that the Biblical interpetations can be VERY divisive. Once again, God’s grace and sovereignty will prevail. I’m glad the news allowed someone to share the Bible. Hopefully they will invite him back again soon!
Did anyone notice how completely unbiased the reporter was? What happened to neutral media personnel? Is that legal? To laugh at one of your guests and pull the opposing guest in on the joke?
“Legal”? Well, yes, of course it is, given that thankfully our nation does not place limits on our freedom of speech. It’s an opinion piece, not a news piece, and the reporter can express her opinions too.
I cannot believe that the notion that Barack Obama is a Muslim still has currency. Candace, you need to do some research.
There are about a million reasons not to vote for Barack Obama, but he’s NOT a Muslim, and promoting the idea he is nothing but scurrilous gossip. I’m surprised and disappointed to find it unquestioned here.
That was infuriating! What was the deal with the reporter? She should be fired for unprofessionalism!
I have issues with several things that was said:
First and foremost, a church that does not allow a woman to preach has nothing to do with Palin running for office. For example, Catholics do not allow women to be priests, and it has nothing to do with politics or whether or not it’s okay for a woman to work outside of the home. The reporter kept puching this and it made no sense.
Second, how in the world can that woman use the bible quote about a man laying down his life for his wife in this way? The verse is clearly talking about a man dying for his family. The only other way you could really interpet that is to say that a man is to give up his (selfish) life to provide for his family (and that even strikes me as a rather broad interpretation). That is pretty much opposite of what Todd Palin is doing. He isn’t providing for his family, he is providing the ability for his wife to provide. This is nonsense! Talk about twisting things around! That woman is basically saying that taking anyting in the bible as what it clearly says is narrowminded. The passages the pastor quoted mean exactly what they say. End of story.
Lastly, it enraged me that she said that wives who stay home to care for their families are placing a burden on them! Are you kidding! This is so clearly the opposite of christian teaching that i have to wonder if this woman was planted by the news network to help puch their liberal agenda. A woman who sacrifices her life to care for her children and spouse is a blessing to her family, not a curse or a burden. It’s not selfishness or laziness that makes a mother desire to be with her children. So what if the family has to do without some material goods? So what if they can’t send their kids to college? Are these things really more valuable than a mothers love and teaching?
Sadly, I think most women these days would agree with that woman. I applaud the pastor (I’m sorry, I don’t remember his name) for standing up for the truth. I am not even protestant and I think he is wonderful!
Just to clarify myself, Irene, I’m not saying that he is a Muslim, and spreading gossip or lies.
I said a “possible” Muslim. There’s just something inside me that doesn’t believe he’s a Christian – but he might have ties to his upbringing/ background/ schooling.
The Bible is clear saying that a child will follow in the way they are trained, and he was trained in a Muslim environment.
Only the Lord knows his heart and beliefs, I just don’t care to chance if he’s telling the truth or not.
Do we not know the devil will come in sheep’s clothing. Why would the man admit to being linked to our Muslim/ terrorist attackers, really.
I’m not a judge, but I am a discerner, and my heart is very uneasy about him. I can hardly look at the tv or paper without getting sick at the thought of so many being misled by his smile and words.
This religion issue doesn’t seem to matter to hardly anyone, but I know the Lord isn’t letting my spirit rest easy about it.
Candace, spreading malicious stories you have no proof of is the very definition of scurrilous gossip.
What do you mean he was raised in a Muslim environment? He was raised by CHRISTIAN grandparents. He attended a public school for two years in Indonesia – where, yes, he would have been around Muslim children, but they aren’t contagious. He then attended a Catholic school for two years. Is he a Catholic as well?
He has written about being saved as a young adult. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest he is lying. Every attempt to suggest he is a Muslim has been emphatically debunked. Have all the ‘feelings’ you like, but they aren’t facts, they aren’t proof, and they don’t justify any ‘possibilities’. Stop pretending they do.
Again, there are so many real, true, provable reasons to dislike Obama. This is not one of them.
Candace,
My husband thinks like you and your husband. These two things really got him to thinking this past week. Pray on it.
“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.”
John Adams
and this:
http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2008/9/2_The_Continuing_Collapse_of_Education_2.html
Also, more food for thought…like our weary brains can handle it… 🙂
I’m not sure how you and your husband feel about this:
http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp/2008/09/4329.aspx
There are thinking theologians (like Mohler) who differ with Vision Forum on their stance about Palin. Just because Christians don’t buy into what you or Vision Forum says, does not mean they don’t know Christ. I don’t know for whom I’ll vote, but, please, don’t paint all Christians with a broad brush. There are many strong, Bible-believing Christians who would disagree with your assessment of a college education, patriarchy, of the Palin issue and a myriad of other values that Vision Forum and you espouse. Judging motives of the heart or questioning the salvation of people who don’t agree with you is precarious territory.
Candace,
I am not a fan of Obama–even a little–but to use your “heart” as a barometer of his faith in Christ is wrong. Our hearts lie to us ALL THE TIME. They’re deceitful, according to Jeremiah.
Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not voting for Obama and I’m not a fan. BUT, I would take umbrage with anyone going after people the way you have with Obama. How is your “uneasy heart” relevant?
Thanks for the forum.
GENTLENESS PEOPLE!!!!
“Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.”
Colossians 4:6
This is why an unbelieving world doesn’t want to believe.
Judgement, angry or sharp tones (yes, they are all throughout the comment sections and also the blog itself at times) from one Christian woman to another. How is that any different than the world?
Anyone can debate! Not everyone can love! Let’s do what Christ has entrusted us to do and stop trying to be right all the time and love each other in the kingdom.
Fruits of the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control.
Let these fruits be evident in our live, repsonses and blogs!
Someone posted this quote on another blog where this is being discussed:
“Of two evils, choose neither.” Charles H. Spurgeon
I really think Baucham hit it on the head. People are scared of Obama – so they are putting their trust in the “lesser evil”.
Isn’t our trust supposed to be in God?
Very, very few people would agree with John Adams:
“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.”
Everywhere I go I hear a resounding NO – a vote for principle is a vote for Obama, the deaded, fearful Obama.
Will all of these fearful people stop doing what is right if it isn’t legal anymore? What if homeschooling becomes illegal?
That was a wonderful chance for Dr. Baucham to speak Truth loud and clear. The other woman, frankly, scared me. She distorted Scripture and sees staying home as “burdensome”.
How sad. Just as someone said, so what? Life is too short to center it on material things. Does God take care of us or our college degree?
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
Anon,
“Judging motives of the heart or questioning the salvation of people who don’t agree with you is precarious territory.”
By this, I assume you mean my statement here?
“One must ask the question…”why do we want to be called Christians if we’re not willing to obey His commands”?”
And my answer, gently, resonates with Dr. Baucham’s. One can’t claim to be a Christian (and by default claim that the Word of God is the living, powerful authority of the One we serve) and then twist it around so perversely as Mrs. Freidman did in the clip.
There comes a time when aside from allowable differences among believers we don’t have to judge motives of the heart. (Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.) They reveal themselves to be false teachers.
Word Warrior:
Actually, I have been reading your blog for a few days now with regard to Palin. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
You said,
“why do we want to be called Christians if we’re not willing to obey His commands”?
I took that to mean, based on your comments on Palin, women in the workplace, etc., and your comments as a whole, that you were questioning the validity of the salvation of those who aren’t in the Vision Forum camp way of thinking.
I merely pointed out that there are differing views of strong Christians who would differ with Baucham. To liken him to Jeremiah to the exclusion of guys like Mohler is curious. Is Mohler wrong? Or. can we as believers, differ but still be kind, longsuffering and have fellowship since we have the same blood coarsing through our veins?
I submit that we can. To be “like-minded” doesn’t mean that we all think one way.
Anon,
Actually, the comment I made was in specific regard to the twisting of Scripture done by Dr. Baucham’s opponent. She was actually an “evangelical speaker” completely perverting the Word of God, in my opinion.
No, many of my close friends and family do not agree with my stance, and I don’t dare question their salvation!
What I question is the compromise that seems to be so prevalant. On this issue, and hundreds more in the past.
We are accepting more and more of the world’s philosophies and that is frightening to me. The things we have accepted, and even applaud, the godly sages of the past would have shuddered at.
I worry about our loss of tenacity when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of truth and holding fast to it.
We have been sliding…and continue to do so, into God’s judgement, little by little. The world is not to blame; the people of God are.
Where once we devoutly guarded the honor of home and the importance of a woman’s role there, we have, by our very acceptance of the egalitarian movement, scoffed it.
We are proving that you can’t really hold both highly esteemed. We must choose. (That’s only one issue, as an example.)
Wow. He just told it straight, didn’t he? Yay for him! Everything she said sounded so smooth and so reasonable that I can see how such thinking could deceive many. Thanks for putting this on your blog!
Word Warrior:
I am in complete agreement with regard to the Christian culture being on a slippery slope with some issues. Lest you think that I am writing you for my benefit, i.e., that I am a working mom and want to defend my position, let me hasten to say that I have a large family (the # of children that I have is double digits), I homeschooled for a very long time and we adhere to Reformed theology.
What “concerns (probably too strong of a word)” me is the dogmatic way some people convey their thoughts as though their way of thinking is the only way.
Do I think it’s best if a mom can stay at home and raise her kids–at least in their younger years? Absolutely, but I don’t get uptight if another believer doesn’t hold to that.
That’s all I’m saying. If you don’t believe Palin has any business running, then, by all means, don’t vote for that ticket. If other thinking Christians don’t agree with you, that is is between them and God.
Lastly, I believe the Church at large may be on a slippery slope, but I don’t think it’s because Christians aren’t homeschooling or don’t hold to women being “keepers at home” exclusively, etc. I think the danger lies in doctrinal issues that are espoused from the pulpit. Good doctrine is the foundation of our faith. Extraneous issues like the ones you’ve cited are not doctrinal issues, but, from my perspective, are preferences.
There is a difference.
Again, thanks for allowing my comments.
Anon,
I respect your opinions, though not completely agreed.
“Good doctrine is the foundation of our faith. Extraneous issues like the ones you’ve cited are not doctrinal issues, but, from my perspective, are preferences.”
Hmmm…I’m thinking on this. What is “good doctrine” but the Word of God? And if the Word of God says it, I have to believe it, Amen.
I don’t agree that a woman choosing to work outside the home when she has a family is a preference. I think there are a few women who may be forced, by fallen, dire circumstances to do it, but Scripture speaks of it…clearly. More than once.
Or women being in authority–church or civil. The Bible speaks.
My question is, how many times, and how plainly does the Scripture have to speak for us to obey?
And at the point we begin to re-interpret or redefine it, the slippery slope leads us to complete apostasy…as much of the church is facing already.
The new buzz is “I don’t get uptight”, or, “who am I to judge”…I think we’re not uptight enough, or not ready enough to judge the things of God.
Regarding “dogmatism”:
A.W. Tozer said:
“Great saints have always been dogmatic.”
If major life issues are open to interpretation, and cannot rely on absolute truth for their definitions, I fear there is nothing solid left on which to stand.
Word Warrior:
If you contend that a woman must stay at home, why is there wiggle room? This is from your answer:
“I think there are a few women who may be forced, by fallen, dire circumstances to do it…”
Is that something that Scripture teaches or is that something that you think, despite what you believe Scripture teaches? In other words, if women are to stay home, where does it say that if there are dire circumstances they can work outside the home?
I find it also interesting that you ask:
“How many times, and how plainly does the Scripture have to speak for us to obey?”
When commenters on other blogs (and possibly yours, I just can’t remember right now) have cited Deborah as an example of leadership, the response is that this is “non-normative.” Did Deborah lead–or not? If we use your premise, then the example of Deborah is a good one and illustrative of a woman in civil leadership.
I believe that the Bible teaches that women are to submit to their husbands, that they aren’t to teach men or to be in leadership over men in the Church. I don’t believe the Bible teaches that to be true in civil government.
Let me use two examples to demonstrate what I mean with regard to how two people can see the same passage, but disagree as to what it means in practice. There are some who use the Deuteronomy 11 passage to somehow make that about homeschooling. Therefore, if you don’t homeschool, you’re in sin. That is a stretch.
How ’bout women wearing pants? I have no idea where you stand on it, but I’m merely using this as another example of different thought processes. There are some that hold that women shouldn’t wear pants and that if they do, they’re sinning. The only problem with the text that they use (Deuteronomy 22) is that if one uses that as a proof text, there are a myriad of other instructions in that chapter, e.g., not wearing linen and wool woven together, etc., that should be followed to stay consistent. A case can be made for almost anything.
I cast no aspersions, but I am saying that there is more than one way to think about the way we live out our faith. When I was growing up, movies were taboo. Today, I don’t believe movies are sin, but, for the most part, I find that many of them are objectionable in terms of content (I still occasionally go to movies). Another Christian may believe differently.
To restate, thinking people can disagree. I stand by what I said: these are not doctrinal issues, and to try to somehow make arguments that they are, is, from where I sit, not in keeping with the Bible teaches. I don’t, though, have any quarrel with you thinking differently.
How DO you explain a guy like Mohler who doesn’t have a problem with Palin running for Vice President? Is he just missing something? Has he just not studied enough?
These issues are not our identity. They are not who we are in Christ. They have nothing to with salvation and justification. That’s why I stated that these are preferences.
Thanks for your thoughtful replies.
In regard to what Amy wrote:
I have left four comments on this post. Three of them were in response to what the owner of the blog wrote. I have never left a comment here until last night/today. What is wrong with healthy discussion?
As to CNN–you are mistaken about the network never allowing the Word to be shown in a positive light. Have you ever watched Larry King Live? He may be the most culpable person on the planet (that’s hyperbole) because he has heard the Gospel presented innumerable times. King has had MacArthur, D. A. Carson and Mohler on as guests, to name a few. They have had opportunities to present the Gospel clearly and concisely. Jews for Jesus was another ministry represented on his show. And, I might add, they have been on to debate the other guests.
I don’t believe the enemy has won (he never will). Of all people, Christians should have a reason why they believe as they do and they should be able to state them with clarity.
As an aside, I have read parts of blogs and comments (even mine) to my husband. If he objected to what I had written, I would have deleted it.
Baucham bases a LOT on Isaiah 3:12 when Isaiah 3:12 is likely not talking about women at all.
See this commentary here:
I think we find another case of prejudiced translation in Isaiah 3:12. The word translated “children” in this verse in Isaiah, is a plural masculine participle of the verb “to glean,” “abuse,” “practice.” It is translated “glean” in Leviticus 19:10, Deuteronomy 24:21, Judges 20:45, and Jeremiah 6:9. The word has no translation such as “children” anywhere else in the Bible, and it occurs 21 times. Another word altogether is used for “children,” and “child,” in verses 4 and 5 of this same chapter; the sense seems to have been fixed by the supposed context, to correspond with “women.” As to the word translated “women”: Two words, without the rabbinical vowel “points,” are exactly alike. One is pronounced nosh-im and the other na-shim. In appearance the only difference is a slight mark under the first letter of the Hebrew word na-shim. The first word means “exactors;” the one with a vowel mark under the initial letter means “women.” The entire decision, therefore, as to whether the word means one or the other depends upon OPTION. Those who pointed the word, evidently thought the nation could sink no lower than to pass under women rulers, and then translated the word “children” to match it. Commentators frequently call attention to the alternate reading. See Adam Clarke on the passage. The Septuagint translates: “As for my people, tax-gatherers (praktores) glean them, and exactors (apaitountes) rule over them.”
622. There seems little in the context to support the translation “children” and “women.” But study the context as regards the other reading. After complaining of the “gleaners,” (that is, “tax-gatherers”) and “extortioners,” they are threatened in the following language: “The Lord standeth up to plead and standeth up to judge the people. The Lord will enter into judgement with the elders of His people, and the princes (“rulers,” masculine, not feminine gender), thereof for ye have eaten up the vineyard (the conduct of extortionate tax-gatherers), and the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What mean ye that ye crush (R. V.) my people, and grind the faces of the poor?” Because of this context, we believe that OPTION took the wrong turn when it decided to translate this verse as it stands in our English version; and that this translation would have had a strong showing up of its sophistries, had educated women been on the last Revision Committee.
I’m all for following the Scripture. But let’s follow it, not a translator bias.
Amy,
I have removed your comment because it was, by far, the most venemous one I’ve read here.
I agree with Anon, the commenter with whom I’m dicussing, that we are having intelligent, calm debate. I see no anger–maybe occasional intensity, and I certainly don’t feel any anger as I am rebuttling.
If you are having a difficult time with the discussion, I certainly invite you to move to a different blog.
I also disagree that to discuss differences of opinion is to “practice the same thing we’re arguing against” (i.e. feminism and women’s roles). There is a far cry from discussing important matters with other women and becoming Chief-in command of the country.
You are apparently confused about what I consider the role of women to be.
My husband usually does read my posts, and often my replies before I post them.
Sorry you were offended.
Anon,
“In other words, if women are to stay home, where does it say that if there are dire circumstances they can work outside the home?”
This “wiggle room” is where the individual is left to answer before God.
I personally believe women are to be Keepers at home, via the teachings of Scripture. If my husband died and left me without an insurance policy and I had no family to take care of me (that is really dire), I might have to work outside the home until I could figure out a way to sustain our family. (Actually, in my circumstance, my church would take care of us…but not everyone belongs to a church that obeys that command.) I would still be striving to get back home. It’s all in our foundational thinking.
Once we dismiss the belief that the Bible speaks about women’s roles, leaving it open for interpretation, the flood gate is opened, and the home disinegrates over time…as can be easily seen in our culture.
I do agree that not every issue is clear and absolute in Scripture. Like your examle of modesty…there is room for the Holy Spirit to guide an individual. But there again, somewhere we’ve missed the mark in this teaching or the churches wouldn’t be full of half-naked ladies. Sorry…just the truth.
In regard to your husband/wife authority statement…
I wrote a piece on the authority of the husband as head, and how it relates to the picture of Christ and His church. I haven’t posted it yet…still praying.
But, I asked the question, can a woman “submit to her husband in all things”, and he remain her head, and her the body, when she physically becomes the body to someone/something else’s head?
And if so, what have we just said to the world about our Savior?
If I make the statement in my marriage that I can assume position under another head, am I not saying that the church no longer must submit to Christ and remain under His authority?
If the body is attached to the head, the body goes where the head leads. Can this clear metaphor from Scripture still apply if I become the body that carries out another head’s agenda and vision?
As to explaining folks like Dr. Mohler who have supported Palin’s nomination?
I have no explanation. I am saddened at this appearance of recanting former beliefs. Just like I can’t explain Dr. Dobson’s recant of his rigid stand against McCain before Palin’s nomination.
How can Palin’s presence make such a difference, given the impotency of the office of VP in regard to policy change?
Thoughts for pondering…
Just a reminder of God’s word. Another reason we should flee from the quarreling.
“So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
2 Timothy 2:22-26
Jessica
Why can’t you “Obama Haters” just admit the fact that you are afraid of an African American (e.g., non anglo saxon) running this country? After reading several comments on this blog regarding Obama verses McCain, I hate to say it, but some of the comments here sound “racist.”
I loved this video! Dr. Baucham really didn’t really get enough time but I know that given about 2 more minutes he would have wiped the floor with her.
http://www.adlynmorrison.blogspot.com
Anon (“Obama-haters”),
I humbly ask you not to make such strong accusations. I disagree with your assertion of “racists remarks”.
Furthermore, to prove that you are wrong, I’ve said for months that I’m strongly thinking of writing in Dr. Voddie Baucham for President 😉 We would spend our lives supporting him if he ran…no, I’m afraid race has nothing to do with it. It is a STRONGLY principle issue.
Obama stands against everything most of us here believe in as Christians.
Is that the role of Christians, i.e., “to wipe the floor” with them? C’mon. The message of the Cross brings change (to use a word that is being bandied about in the political forum these days). We’re to be salt and light, not mops.
Again, this makes me sad. I think this is fighting the wrong battle.
It really is saddening to see people barking up this tree when there is so much MORE that is clearly wrong with our culture. On an issue that is obviously gray (because godly people DO in fact disagree on it), we ought not be so hard-nosed when there are gospel-level issues still fully needing our efforts and attention.
I really am heavy in my heart that fellow Christians (including Dr. Baucham) would take this on as the battle to fight.
Jess,
I’d love to agree that this issue is *minor* in light of the problems in our culture…but I can’t get past the belief that this issue is one of the major factors in the destruction that has manifest itself in a myriad of ways…bottom line, the home is broken and underestimated.
Until we stop overlooking and calling this (mom leaving home) a minor issue, we will continue to see the destruction.
(Read the more recent R.L. Dabney quote as he has so squarely described our culture–from over 100 years ago!)
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