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A timely thought on the heels of yesterday’s post….
Divided from Leclerc Brothers Motion Pictures on Vimeo.
Divided: Age-Segregation in Church…Is it Right?
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103 comments
I have been looking forward to the release of this video!
I think the pop culture that has found it’s way into churches (that really shows a lack of reverence for our Creator) has added to this problem. The “if it feels good do it” kind of church service will eventually loose it’s members to the world because it doesn’t feel good to have your sins pointed out. And if a church isn’t calling on it’s member to repent and be reunited with their Savior then are they really a church of God?
The church is made of up families. If families are worshiping together at home then they won’t do it at church either.
I was baptized when I was 18 (11 years ago) and even then I never agreed with “children’s church” services for a multitude of reason.
http://www.surrender2survive.blogspot.com
If the Church is a body, then segregation within the church is attempted suicide. Doesn’t make sense.
Very succinct description.
Can’t wait to see this!
I agree with the idea that family togetherness has good results for that particular family, but what about children’s and youth ministries to spread the Gospel? Our church has unchurched neighbors who send their children to children’s church on Sunday mornings (to get them out of their hair, to help them practice English, or for whatever reason). Even if their parents reasons are not good, and they won’t be getting any Biblical training at home, aren’t we called to minister to these unchurched little ones and teach them the Gospel? I think our children can be a part of that ministry as well, even if it means time spent in worship away from their parents.
Maybe there is not a single solution that works for all.
This may or may not be helpful, but this question has been addressed at length here:http://generationcedar.com/2010/02/families-worshipping-together-why-not-childrens-church.html
and here:http://generationcedar.com/2008/07/whats-family-for-2.html
among other places
Now, keep in mind that I am only coming from what I saw growing up. This is my own, personal experience with this sort of youth ministry. I grew up in a church that bussed in inner city kids to receive the gospel. Frankly, it fell flat. The church turned into a babysitting service. The Word was watered down so much, it was practically non-existent. I’d say about 95% of the church families’ youths left the church while only about 1% of the inner city youths accepted Christ.
I’m not saying we should abandon the “unchurched” to save our own youth. I admit that the church I attended had deeper spiritual problems than just a watered down children’s church. I just don’t see it working unless:
1. The entire church is in agreement that this is the Lord’s leading to bus in the unchurched youth.
2. The church’s families train up their youth and their youth leaders to witness, teach and preach to these unchurched youths without compromising the Word of God and their own values.
“1. The entire church is in agreement that this is the Lord’s leading to bus in the unchurched youth.
2. The church’s families train up their youth and their youth leaders to witness, teach and preach to these unchurched youths without compromising the Word of God and their own values”
Precisely. That’s what I’ve seen, and what healthy churches do.
Jamie,
The problem is when we apply a pragmatic solution that is not principally correct (the state has done it for years and continues to slip down the slippery slope of newly created catastrophes)we don’t address the root issue and therefore create new problems. Wow, that was a redundant sentence.
There are a number of ways children’s ministries easily hinder the principal/biblical approach to parenting, discipleship, etc.
One of those ways is what CC referred to once when talking about the state as “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. We see parents not doing their job and so instead of handling the root problem, we just take it over for them. Very few parents EVER rise to their responsibilities if they no longer have a responsibility. This is a VERY common problem with youth ministries and children’s ministries, even among Christian families who assume their children are getting what they need and so abdicate their primary role as spiritual mentor.
The bottom line is that it matters HOW we handle discipleship. Families are the primary place for discipleship. Families mentoring families is, I think, God’s intended plan. Which means the church has to step up. But no one is teaching it. The programs allow us all to abdicate our responsibilities and the precipitant snowball keeps rolling.
And as studies are showing (which is why some mega churches are cutting all their youth and children’s programs) it ain’t working. When we break the principle, no matter how good our intentions, it won’t work. It’s hard to wrap our brains around something we’ve been steeped in for so long, but I think it’s time if the church really wants to change lives.
Don’t know if that makes sense…you more articulate people, feel free to jump in 😉
Kelly,
I’d be interested in which mega churches are doing away w/their youth programs.
Thanks,
Cathy
I linked to one further down in the thread..this is it–it’s actually Billy Graham’s grandson’s church:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100825/fla-megachurch-ends-age-segregated-worship/
And I’ve stumbled across several others that I will post if I find again–one pastor is from CA and I saw a video he did explaining why they were cutting their programs but now I can’t find it.
Well I think it’s a more than necessary option, but not that it should be enforced. That’s why I’m happy that our church offers both options.
I don’t see Youth Ministry as an inherent problem at ALL. The ones I know of train young adults to be responsible, vivacious and challenged by God’s Word. As long as they’re Biblical, there’s no reason why they should be considered wrong, especially since it has nothing to do with keeping teens out of sanctuary sermons and worship with their parents.
I wonder…. will mainstream pastors be ready for this? Are they willing to put their pride down and take an honest look at what the Bible calls for, if “programs” are biblical – and the fruit of them?
They may not be IN the Bible, but neither were female missionaries, and both have produced great fruit. Many teens need a good and healthy place to go outside of home, and Youth Groups can be awesome grounds for that. Especially for kids with unhappy homes.
Actually, I think that Priscilla (Aquila’s wife) would be considered a missionary in Biblical times.
Cathy
Yes, now that you mention it I’d probably call her that too. Try telling that to the Botkin girls, though.
You seem to misunderstand what the Botkins girls (which are my personal friends, by the way) and I think about female missionaries…namely, in this case, Priscilla and Aquila were a husband/wife team. We are not opposed to that ministry and in fact, would urge all Christian husbands and wives to work as a “missionary team”.
I understand their general position, and find it alarming to say the least. They’ve seemed to be very opposed to single women being missionaries. Many VF members/supporters promote young women staying at home and learning how to be wives rather than doing anything outside home.
I actually didn’t know what your feelings on the matter were, Kelly, but thanks for sharing. Husband and wife teams are wonderful in any Christian field.
I have a question about Sunday school: sometimes the nature of sermons is very mature, like discussing violence or rape in the Bible, or adult marriage matters. Would it be appropriate, or necessary, for small children to hear all these?
It was appropriate for the early church.
Does it follow automatically that it was right?
I think it’s a universal idea that the apostles were “doing it right”. Jennifer, if you’ll look at the whole of Scripture, there’s so much more to help us formulate these ideas than just “I think it’s a good idea for children to have their own place”.
As one pastor of a mega-church who is cutting children’s programs put it, “What are we saying about the body of Christ, which is supposed to be ONE and unified when we can’t even worship together?
The fact is that the model of segregation is an element of Darwinian thought and has no place among the corporate worship of believers. Never did and shouldn’t now. I challenge you to study it more deeply before arguing about it.
I didn’t know you meant the Apostles. I’m not sure what their positions were, but speaking of parents being the primary teachers, I’ll be the one to decide when to teach my children the hard truths of sex and rape, and it will NOT be at a small age. It’s ironic how some parents try to ban “graphic” books from the library, yet don’t mind exposing kids to everything going on in Biblical times.
The only thing I strongly disagree with here is the idea that Youth Ministries and SS are inherently, automatically bad. Parents should ALWAYS be the primary teachers, and any outside teachers shouldn’t affect this. I argue for the existence of good SS and YM programs because I’ve seen that there’s wonderful fruit just as there’s bad fruit; what it depends on is the heart of the parents and the teachers, whether they’re attuned to their own jobs of teaching kids His Word.
“The only thing I strongly disagree with here is the idea that Youth Ministries and SS are inherently, automatically bad. Parents should ALWAYS be the primary teachers, and any outside teachers shouldn’t affect this.”
They are not inherently BAD (I never said that); they are inherently slippery, and the proof of that has been documented, not just my opinion. Parents abdicate left and right if they feel like someone else is doing a good job. So, the better the program, the slipperier 😉 And, back to principle…the segregation of body members is, like Charity put it, dismemberment–suicide.
Also, honestly, how many sermons have you heard lately about “sex and rape”? This from someone who argues that public school is OK where sex and rape actually HAPPEN, but a pastor can’t tactfully preach a discourse on sensitive areas in Scripture with parents there to smooth out the wrinkles if necessary?
I managed to get out of public school unscathed, Kelly, as well as thousands of others, never witnessing sex or rape. The point is, if parents want to protect their kids from PS, I find it again ironic how they feel free to let their kids absorb adult material from the Bible. A teen can’t read a Judy Blume book, but a five-year-old may be privy to a sermon about sex and sexual needs (yes, we’ve had those)? If pastors can tactfully preach on the subject, fine, but if they feel the need to be graphic, or quote Scripture like the Song of Solomon, speaking of grappling breasts, I hope they believe in children’s church.
“They are inherently slippery, and the proof of that has been documented, not just my opinion”
I don’t think they are; it depends on the hearts of those teaching them.
I’m sure the fact that you came through unscathed is a great comfort to those who didn’t and I guess can live vicariously through your experince?
“•In one study over 50% of high school boys and 42% of high school girls believe that there are times when it is “acceptable for a male to hold a female down and physically force her to engage in intercourse.” Hopper, Sexual Abuse of Males: Prevalence and lasting Effects and Resources, 1997 ”
“•In a Minnesota survey of high school students, 80% were aware of sexual harassment occurring in their schools; 75% were aware of sexual harassment between students and 50% were aware of sexual harassment of students by faculty. Susan Strauss, Sexual Harassment and Teens”
http://www.fcasv.org/information/sexual-assault-statistics
So, if sexual harrassment is this common, and we know that rape and sex in school are not rare occurances nationwide, and sexually explicit material is part of public school curriculum, exactly how do you think this stacks up against the very rare sermons on rape or sex, and how against the even rarer sermon that might include references to “grappling breasts?”
If you like CC, fine. But this extreme and rare (RARE!) example is no support for CC. Remember, CC as far as I know always occurs in regular programmed format when churches have it (as in, it’s predictable and weekly). Sermons on rape are not part of a regular program in church. They are a miniscule exception.
Thanks so much for your infinite sarcasm and knowledge, Lori. There are plenty of reasons for CC, and I don’t need to fish for them.
“In one study over 50% of high school boys and 42% of high school girls believe that there are times when it is “acceptable for a male to hold a female down and physically force her to engage in intercourse”
Kids are not taught that in school. A surprising number of Christian males and females believe it’s ok to forcibly spank wives, teenage daughters, and read/write books about husbands raping their wives to discipline them. An even greater number think a wife must obey no matter what her husband says, that women literally can’t speak in church, that fathers have the right to control their adult daughters, sometimes even asking said daughters to sign a contract giving their virginity to their fathers to “keep safe” until hubby comes along. And guess what, they ARE taught this. Yet somehow I doubt you’d let me hold this as the result of patriarchy. Anything remotely outside of church control, or direct pastor control, is questioned or villainized, like PS or CC, but rarely are the tight cuffs of utter control as long as they’re in the name of Christianity or tradition.
From the heart that beats beneath my grappling breasts, you’re welcome. (sorry, that just cracks me up! 😛 )
I think you mean your “grappled” breasts, Lori.
Thanks, but I meant exactly what I said in my prev. comment. 😉
I got a kick out of it too. “Gripping, seizing, as in wrestling.” Arg! Humph! Roar! Don’t recall reading that in Song of Solomon. 😉
Well okay, but I meant “grappled” as in a husband grappling them, not as in the breasts doing any..grappling themselves.
What are we saying??
This has gotten so far off topic I have to laugh too. I suggest we call the disagreement a truce and return to the original subject. How’d we get from babies in the church to the best use of the word grapple in regards to breasts?
*blushes* Sheesh, women.
Oh it’s there, Charity. Something about Solomon comparing his love to a tree, her breasts as fruit, and climbing the tree and grabbing the fruit. I wasn’t too far off in my choice of words.
Hey Kelly, have you seen the preview for Colin Gunn’s new film on public schools yet? Similar topic.
Growing up in a horrible segregated church environment with a terribly watered down children’s church, I was against segregation when my son was born. When the time came for him to go to Children’s Church, I hesitated, but he wanted to go so badly. My mother was teaching at the time, so I allowed it. After much inner debate, I decided to let my children go to children’s church if they choose to.
In my church, the song service is done with the families intact. Before the sermon, the children are dismissed. Children’s church is not enforced and children are welcome to stay with their parents during the sermon. The curriculum my church uses in CC is a very VERY good curriculum. It is not all cartoony and silly. It is very meat and potatoes. I was nursing my son in the hallway and overheard the 5-7 year old class. The teacher was teaching the children about the Holy Spirit! And not just in a factual, impersonal way, but in a very personal way. The children understood and were excited! The curriculum is also very parent-involved. Also, every month we have a 5th Sunday in the month, it is a family service where there is no children’s church and then afterwards we have a church fellowship dinner.
My church is also small. If I went to a mega-church (which I never plan on doing. Churches should be families, personal, not huge and cliquish) I wouldn’t send my children to some remote children’s church with bulging classrooms of screaming kids from who knows what kind of families.
Just MHO.
I meant to say “if families AREN’T worshiping together at home” by the way.
I though the topic had more to do with separating for the main worship service.
We have separate children’s and adult classes prior to worship services with age appropriate lessons for each group. We go over the lessons and Bible story during the week at home and then their classes have a mission story, sing songs, review the lesson together, and have age appropriate crafts. (As a mom this even bother’s me sometimes because I can’t be all of my children’s classes at once.)
It’s the actual children’s church that I think is unnecessary. I like Charity’s suicide description.
I like the method you described, Jessica. And as far as having kids simply learn the Bible in separate rooms, without being BANNED from sanctuary, I find the suicide description overblown.
But what is the point of “having kids simply learn the Bible in separate rooms”, if they are being taught the Bible at home, throughout the week, each day, by their parents, as scripture instructs parents to do? It goes right back to what Kelly has said so many times on this subject, the very option of these programs takes the resposibilty off of the parents…slippery!! If your church served a meal after each service, would you go home and cook a meal for your family? Very unlikely! You would eat at church! It is the same idea…why do it at home if they are doing it for us at church…although we often just don’t think about it like that. SLIPPERY!
“It goes right back to what Kelly has said so many times on this subject, the very option of these programs takes the resposibilty off of the parents…slippery!!”
Only for a MORNIING, Charity. Children won’t expire if they spend an hour or two out of their parents’ sight.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but we’ve never been to a church (and we’ve attended and visited LOTS of churches in our near 6years of marriage) where there were only programs in the mornings. The programs are during Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and often offered events throughout the week. In other words, *every* time the family would enter the doors of the church they are seperated! I highly doubt I am alone in my observation.
Good grief. Well, parents don’t have to accept those programs, or even go to church that often; my family doesn’t.
I love this. I have posted before about being tired of our church’s Sunday school programs. It’s just glorified babysitting. The kids don’t learn anything. I started taking my older two children to worship with me, and our church is fine with kids in the sanctuary. But somehow, I’m back in the same old routine. I’ve gotten sucked back into “teaching” preschool Sunday school, and I’m very unhappy about it. I want to find a church that is built around Family -Integrated worship, but I don’t know where to look. Our church is a big one and I know that truth is spoken from the pulpit, so when I feel like I want to look elsewhere, I wonder if I’m just being silly. I guess I don’t want to go church-shopping, and I’m also worried about trying to juggle 4 small children on a pew by myself since my husband’s job has him away most Sunday’s.
This directory could help you find a family-integrated church: http://www.ncfic.org/church-network
I did not attend church in America as a child or teenager so I do not have actual experience as a child.
As a young adult and college student in America, I tried a lot of churches and found them lacking because of ‘well my theology is the only theology that matters and others do not have the truth’. There seems to be more focus on theology vs christianity. Like which baptism is the ‘real baptism’. Dedication/Immersion or Baptism/Confirmation. I am not talking catholics here, but denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalian etc. I have heard some people identify themselves as ‘Lutheran’ or ‘Methodist’ instead of Christian or Protestant. I think it is called ‘Legalism’ (I recently heard about this term..so I may be wrong about the actual term).
And impersonal, personality driven, prosperity gospel mega churches. I do not know if this is true, but have heard some actually ask for income statements from parishioners so they can calculate tithe. Powerpoint sermons. Who can hear the still, small voice of God in this chaos ?
Why should I bother going to church, waking up my children, loading them in a vehicle when my husband and I have so many resources in the web, phone applications, sermons on ipods etc.
The only reason I have not given up on finding a church is the fellowship of people. I have seen how priceless it is and it cannot be replicated by one family. I was part of a vibrant youth group in a church in a non-christian country. That spread the Gospel, that taught people who did not know how to read or write, hospital ministry, jail ministry. Lovely Sunday School teachers including my mom who taught me the Bible through stories when I was a little child and could not understand adult sermons. Who took turns sitting in church during service so they listened to our pastor’s sermons. Our dads who patiently wrote verses down for our moms or who recorded sermons in little tape recorders so they can listen. So many things I took for granted. So many things I took for granted. I want that for my children.
I posted a response in a Kelly’s previous post on supermom. But I would like to repost my ideas here.
I don’t think children’s programs are wrong, I think they are most often DONE wrong. Our church has seating for around 300, but usually over 400 are in attendance at one service (we offer two). This past spring we started setting up chairs in fellowship hall and children who were able to sit quietly by themselves were encouraged to sit in there. They have their own service complete with praise songs, reciting of Lords prayer and Apostle’s creed, offering, communion and sermon. The only difference is the children are the ones leading, except the sermon given by an adult who attended the earlier service. These children are not being kept from Jesus, they are coming to him on their own. Just because they are not sitting with mom and dad does not mean they are not worshiping.
Our wednesday night is full of “segregated” classes. School age children go to Bible blast. They are quizzed on scripture while there. However, the learning happens at home. The parents are responsible for leading them in the Bible reading and preperation at home. If parents neglect their duties at home, it will be evidenced in how the children do on the “quiz” Wednesday night. It is made clear to parents that this is not to replace parents teaching, but to encourage it. By the time these children reach junior high age they can quote more scripture than many adults I know. Then yep, they move on to “youth group”. I’m not sure how things are run there. I don’t have children that age yet, but I can see the fruit. We often get updates on the college students in our church newsletter. Most are attending church, many are involved in ministry. I know of five students that went through the youth group, went to college and are now either studying to be pastors or are already missionaires. (They all graduated between 2005-2006.)
I know good results can’t be reason to argue for it if you believe it to be wrong in the first place. I just think the arguements for it being wrong are not very strong. Just because children are not with their parents during service does not mean worship is not happening wherever they are. That is why I think the “how” is more important than the “where”.
I agree completely.
“These children are not being kept from Jesus, they are coming to him on their own. Just because they are not sitting with mom and dad does not mean they are not worshiping.”
I think the problem remains, as in many discussions, of what’s the Scriptural instruction, what’s the informed objective, and have we met both?
Children’s programs aren’t inherently wrong, we can agree on that. Your Wednesday night example is perfect, R.F. – a social opportunity, a learning opportunity, in community, designed with the social interests and ages of the participants in mind. Sounds very nice. I wish our church did more stuff like that.
And to address some of the more delicate topics that are often not suitable for a regular family worship service, this is the perfect setting to delve into Song of Solomon, etc. There’s an acknowledgment and consideration for all concerned. Folks who aren’t of an appropriate age, are unmarried, perhaps just uncomfortable publically with a certain subject matter aren’t made to feel further embarrassed, or bored, or put on the spot, or {fill in the blank}. Again, very nice, and situationally appropriate.
Speaking specifically to separate worship for children when celebrating the Sabbath, it is wrong to not include them in the larger worship services. Yes, they ARE being kept from Jesus, in a way. We’re called The Body, we identify ourselves as a Church family…like any other Holy Day we celebrate apart from our loved ones, it’s incomplete, and we’re quick to excuse this for what is largely our own convenience…having seating issues, not wanting to be disrupted by a child -our own or anyone elses – these aren’t really legitimate to The Body. Parts are missing, and the entirety suffers.
Corporate worship isn’t merely a suggestion, to be structured tidily, like a dinner party, according to our social preferences or by extra-invitation. It is by it’s design meant to be inclusive, the invitation open. It’s where we come together, once a week is typical for our culture, to fulfill a directive from our Lord and unite DESPITE how much we may or may not like each other for any given reason. We might, in fact, practice ignoring those annoying differences, and try to see each other how God sees us all: His squabbling, deceitful, nose-picking children, whom He loves, and trusts and empowers to do better.
How odd would it be if we decided that – I don’t know – men with beards were taking up too much space in church, let’s move’em out to Fellowship Hall (isn’t it ironic how all the inconvenient people get stuck in “Fellowship” Hall?)…because it really is that arbitrary, when you think about it, how we dismiss the gifts of God and symbols of increase that are required to grow this church we claim to love.
As far as children coming to God “on their own” – that is a blessing of the Holy Spirit that so many do despite our incorrect renderings of what spiritual expression should look like. It has nothing to do with children’s church, it gratefully happens in spite of it, of us.
Really interesting thoughts, CC.
CC,
Thank you for your insight. However, I am still not changed in my thinking. I don’t believe our little ones in Fellowship Hall feel “put out” and that is certainly not our intenet. Instead (besides seating issues) it is an opportunity for the children to participate in ways that wouldn’t be possible while with the adults. Other than the sermon, the children are leading their service. They are leading the singing, collecting offerings, praying and confessing together. I think it is very powerful.
Again I repeat my thoughts. I don’t believe the family must be together in the same room to worship. The body of Christ is bigger than one church building, and thus, bigger than just the sanctuary filled with adults. It includes the children in fellowship hall, the babies being cuddled and sung to in the nursery by elderly women long past their child bearing age.
What is important is the spirit behind it. If a children’s program is there to keep kids entertained and out of mom and dad’s hair, then it is going to fail. You’re right, that is not what church is about. And too many churches are doing that, thus the high “drop out rate”.
But if it is about teaching these children what it means to be in community as the body of Christ. Serving and teaching, and meeting together. If they are being taught the word by people in the church with spiritual gifts bent in that direction, then I believe the fruit looks much different. I have seen the fruit of our “programs” and it is a great thing indeed. We value our children. That is why we have so many “programs” to encourage their spiritual growth.
R.F. – to be clear, they’re not “my” insights or opinions. I can’t take credit for originality.
CC,
I’m sure you are implying that your insights are not your own in that they are found in scripture. Can you please point me in the direction where your insights are gleaned from. I would be interested in seeing them. I did not know the Bible instructed where our children were to be during service. I’m not trying to be snarky, I really am interested.
Thanks
RF,
I think CC is gleaning from the principle we see in Scripture that our modern thinking/practices have sort of pushed out. Your comment here:
“If they are being taught the word by people in the church with spiritual gifts bent in that direction”
needs very careful attention. It’s the identical “lie” that parents have been told about educating their children. “Leave it to the professionals” which invariably undermines the Scriptural instructions of parents to educate their children–in every way, not just academically or spiritually, but both in one effort. (The Bible doesn’t distinguish the two.)
(BTW, I’m not arguing that a child can’t ever attend a children’s program or activity or be taught by someone else, just that the corporate worship of believers should be as a whole body.)
The crux is that no matter how *good* a program is, if it interferes with biblical principles (the church model of Scripture, parental instruction, etc.), we are going to incur other undesirable results. Such as the ones that have already been mentioned…burned out “program workers” not able to pour themselves into their first callings, parents who abdicate their responsibility, children who aren’t “walking with the wise” and observing the unity of the body of Christ in worship–all those things have implications we can’t ignore.
I also believe our thinking on these issues get muddled because we’ve lost the clear picture of what church is for. We’ve focused so much on what WE need or what WE can get out of it that we have forgotten that church is about what we GIVE as we offer our worship. We shouldn’t be so concerned with all the efforts to make sure our children get a super-duper spiritual lesson; that’s not what they’re there for. Home is for that. We should be concerned with their learning to worship in spirit and truth, observing the reverence of the Sabbath, along side the rest of their brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, etc.
As we’ve already mentioned, the very principle of segregation defies the family unit, and there’s no worse place for that to happen than in the body of Christ.
Thank you Word Warrior for your always graceful responses. I see the Big picture you are talking about and completely agree that most children’s church and sunday school’s have a dividing affect on the body of Christ. They don’t work and are often used as a babysitting service. And I agree that they are born out of Satan’s desire to see the church divided.
But I also believe that God is powerful enough to beat satan at his own game. I’m not saying we should be doing children’s programs just to see if we can. But I think that God can use them and does use them when necessity demands it (overcrowding in santuary, firecode does not allow for sitting in the asile:) And when it is done by people who recognize the importance and place that children have in the body of Christ. Our children’s program would not work without the diligent teaching of the children during the week by the parents. When it is seen as part of the body, not removed from it, it can have a huge spritual impact on all the members. There is something truly amazing seeing a fifth grader leading others in the Lord’s prayer.
I don’t believe having children in the service equates a higher retention rate. Take a look at the Catholic Church. I don’t mean to beat up on our sisters in Christ that belong to the Catholic church. But I do know they keep children in the mass with them. And they are also seeing a drop in their numbers. I believe the problem goes much deeper than seperating children from parents in a service.
I believe parents have dropped the ball in teaching children in matters of faith.
“BTW, I’m not arguing that a child can’t ever attend a children’s program or activity or be taught by someone else, just that the corporate worship of believers should be as a whole body”
That’s a great point. Thanks for the clarity.
Yes, of course, I’m happy to! – they are based in Scripture, but I was also referring to resources and authors who have put into words, better than I ever could, the actuarial consequences of and Biblical foundation for NOT segregating worship services.
There are countless Scriptural references to necessarily inclusive worship. I’ll spare you the long list (although I’ll try to link to an article that has a thorough one – I’m really bad at linking, sorry), but one of the more convicting passages for was Deut.31:11-13.
“Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God.”
I’ll let you read the rest of it, if you care to, but the concept is that ALL were gathered. It wasn’t a call to parents to hear one version and children another (which is also a “slippery” stone), and meet for lunch after. It was/is critical enough that we all have the same experience that all should be summoned simultaneously. Crossing the Jordan and living in the Promised Land wasn’t an age-segregated field trip – it was a singular, communal journey.
My question remains: Why would we default to break-out groups now? There are no Biblical recommendations for such a structure.
more resources at:
http://www.inrich.org/pages/ChristianEducationAndTheLocalChurch.php
(see, I can’t link :p, I hope you don’t mind cutting and pasting. )
(and fwiw, I am not necessarily endorsing, or not, this ministry…I don’t know much about it, it’s this specific article that I have found exceedingly well sourced and helpful)
and like I said, much better than I could ever state it (from the referenced article):
“Intergenerational activities (classes, programs, special events) provide an opportunity for individuals to relate to others of all ages in the natural way they are placed by God in society (church and family) instead of in the unnatural and negative peer structure. These cross-generational groups also furnish ample occasion for the church to follow God’s plan for older women to instruct younger women, for older men to instruct younger men, and for parents to train their children, etc.
“It wasn’t a call to parents to hear one version and children another (which is also a “slippery” stone), and meet for lunch after. It was/is critical enough that we all have the same experience that all should be summoned simultaneously”
Can’t agree in the least. Individuals themselves will always have different learning experiences and it’s only natural for children to learn things differently; they certainly don’t learn math or anything similar at the same time as their parents.
Didn’t really care for that article, as it seemed the author almost had an anneurism calling SS unnatural; good grief. It is bad to ISOLATE children from their parents (evidenced by the wicked PP group trying to teach kids sexual immorality away from their parents and even get them to LAUGH at their parents) but another extreme is parents who seem to fear their kids hearing anything, even from the Bible, from someone else’s lips.
“Intergenerational activities (classes, programs, special events) provide an opportunity for individuals to relate to others of all ages in the natural way they are placed by God in society (church and family) instead of in the unnatural and negative peer structure”
And classes of kids among their own ages can be good learning tools for socializing with their peers.
Jennifer, I guess all I can do is invite you to reread. You’ve missed the point(s), here and elsewhere in this conversation, altogether. It’s not an argument to be won or lost, it’s a matter of how we’ll observe Scripture, or not.
I understand perfectly, Cottage, and I know how my church and I observe Scripture. I know it’s not an “argument”, at least not from you, and I simply disagree.
To be clear, CC, I know what you guys are doing is good: you’re exhorting people to examine all aspects of their lives and pull out all the stops to keep youth from straying. The one thing I resent is being made to fear or question something that’s dear to me unnecessarily; in this case, the YM and SS I personally know of. When this occurs, my natural defenses come up. And I know that’s not what you’re trying to do; sometimes my fear of human fallacy, including in other believers trying to reform something, gets the better of me, and it takes me a while to remember that there’s benevolence here and no real reason to fear.
Or, maybe there is. My fear of inbalance wasn’t simply toward you, but by and toward the churches who simply can’t seem to do things correctly: they miss up YM, then they tear it down instead of trying to improve it. I don’t want dozens of churches tearing up YM, I want them to FIX it. It shouldn’t be a case of do it wrong or don’t do it at all. That’s my fear: humans have such a tendency of all or nothing, mess it up and then tear it up instead of repairing it. Of course in a mega-church I understand the probable need to simply disband a YM instead of repairing it; with 500 students it’s probably beyond them. I just get frusterated at the lack of balance in humanity, with our society and especially in our churches. But, maybe in the case of some churches (especially super-big ones), disbanding defective YM really is the best thing. I’ll just have to keep giving this to God.
I have literaly been to church every sunday of my entire life. My parents were wonderful and took me every sunday. I have belonged to 3 mega churches in my life time and I am currently 40 years old. All of the churches that I belonged to all believed in age segregation. They all had thriving youth groups, with anywhere from 300 to 3000 in there youth attendance. I have known hundreds of people growing up and of all the people I grew up with in church youth group only 1% of them still attend church on a regular basis today. It is so very sad. I can only go by what has happened in my life but for me it is proof positive that age segregated programs just do not work. I have 4 children of my own now and I just can not fail them on this issue. It is not about what I want it is about God and The Bible and if it not in the Bible then how can I possibly justify in my own mind doing it. Oh God please change me and my heart to be more like yours! Please Lord change the heart of our nation and draw us closer to you! Lord, I desperately want to be more like your son and I want to teach my children to be just like Jesus! Help me to do just that, in whatever means you see fit.
Our Church has a family sacrament service (about an hour) and then we break for Sunday School. Children under 18 months stay with their parents, but children 18 month and older go to their age groups Sunday School. I enjoy this arrangement because we are able to train our children to be revrent in the sacrament meeting and worship together, but can discuss more adult or dig deeper into scripture in the Sunday School classes.
I am torn on this. I do not yet know what I think. We serve in Children’s church. My daughter helps me with new kid check in. I always make a point of telling them that their children are welcome with them in service, that we are not a church that requires children to be in a certain place, and that it is great for them to be able to worship together as a family. My husband teaches 2nd graders. What he imparts to them is very good, very Biblical, and often fills the gaps that would remain unfilled were it not for God loving teachers. HOWEVER, we feel that God has told us to not put our 10 yr old (6th grade) into youth group. I see them take trips to California to do a little outreach and have some fun (we live in Vegas). I see kids treating each other as potential dating material and not brothers and sisters in Christ. We would obey God despite our observations, but I am really happy He told us not to allow her in. In contrast, our homeschool group has a tweens group that is getting together tonight. There is no inappropriate actions (ie flirting, hand holding, dating). Most of us “crazies” who HS train our children to view each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, so the attitudes are different.
So, I see the value of some age segregated time together. And while we do not feel led to put our daughter in CC, we feel strongly that we are told to serve there. Weird. But we also know God has a purpose, so we will obey, even though our eyes cannot see what lies ahead because He works ALL things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. (even CC or sunday school 😉 )
I really appreciate the posts on these things, Kelly, it helps me to delve more into what He wants.
I say, again, it depends on how evertything is handled. Your thoughts are good, Kelly L.
Thank you, Julie.
Great job Kelly!
As a father who has done the research into the origins of segregation within the body of Christ, the truth is it is nothing short of a well orchestrated plan by our enemy to leave the biblical model. If I am not mistaken that would at very least cause it to fall into the class of “worldliness” and at worst would make it a demonically inspired plan infused with the spirit of anti-christ (and yes the lowercase letters are intentional).
Is this statement polarizing? Of course but with a purpose. I challenge all of you that read my statement and then had a visceral knee-jerk reaction to rebut my comment – please be my guest but only if you are brave enough to research the issue and not just tell me about how you feel or your experience (As believers Sola Scriptura [Scripture Alone] is our only right and true standard, our emotions and experiences can and do LIE).
Need resources, glad you asked here are 3 great ones:
Family Driven Faith by Voddie Baucham
The History of the Sunday School Movement CD Message by Doug Phillips
Perspectives on Family Ministry: Three Views by Timothy Jones, et al.
By the way – I love the suicide analogy Charity!
EXCELLENT article by Billy Graham’s grandson, pastor of a mega-church in FL, who has ended their age-segregated programs…he says:
Oooh, gotta love that.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100825/fla-megachurch-ends-age-segregated-worship/
Here’s an interesting read for you ladies.
http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles/critiquemodyouthministeries.htm
Very interesting read. I think you have encouraged me to pursue this deeper. Thank you.
RF, I hope you continue to be blessed by your own church structure. It sounds wonderful.
Donna – I’ve read this before, it’s very informative. Thank you.
Thank you, Donna. Extremely thought-provoking article (I still think the biggest problem we have with this and many other issues is a diversion in our thinking and no one challenging us to trace back to the principle/biblical roots of a thing).
I loved this:
Even in the church, we have established a pattern of perpetual regress that is tearing down the last vestiges of maturity that our fathers laboured to achieve. Evangelical churches are honouring divisions that have existed in our culture for less than a century – divisions which have no basis in either Scripture or common sense. These divisions breed immaturity because they hinder young people from associating with, and learning from, their elders.
Rather than admonishing our young people with Paul’s mandate, “Flee youthful lusts” (2 Timothy 2:22), we provide a forum for youthful lusts to be pursued. We have compromised standards in the name of relevance….Evangelicals condemn this break up of the traditional family, but have ironically advanced programmes that further erode family values in the church.
“Evangelicals condemn this break up of the traditional family, but have ironically advanced programmes that further erode family values in the church”
There’s a difference between kids spending time constantly without elders among themselves, and spending time in a holy place with their peers and Christian teachers.
“Young people have a far greater capacity for spiritual and social maturity than we tend to give them credit for”
Which is exactly what good Youth Ministries expect from them and WHY they’re encouraged to be active in such a ministry.
Thank you for posting this video. I am looking forward to seeing it and when I have time, coming back and reading all the comments!
I am in a dilema again..seems the dilemas are endless…We have found a nice bible believing and teaching church and there go my kids right into youth church…I tried to get my 14 year old to come up stairs and listen but it is “boring and she doesn’t like it at all” I am so tired of argueing every point with my kids with my husband with other church members it seems like i AM ALWAYS FOR NO ONE HAVING ANY FUN ( like when my mother in law just dropped off 3 large boxes of halloween decor, most with witches and etc) I came out of a wiccan type religion which was Not worshipping God and so these things to ME are sin..to the rest of my family and etc they are harmless fun. I see a total lack of interrest in God like things since our kids have been in youth ministery and yet once again I am the kill -joy…gosh this is tiring. And makes me think I am wrong. I should just be happy we are in church do I just not want my kids to have fun ?they really seem to enjoy being downstairs but they never seem to learn anything.I actually liked it better when we had home church.
May I suggest some private family sessions about Bible matters? You guys can think up some good, and entertaining, ways to spend time together discussing God. Maybe it is time to bring back home church in some form; maybe you could try doing it once or twice a week (I don’t know if you guys have church attendance or activities more than once a week, but it might be a good idea to have home church more often than regular church).
Thank you so much ,that is the simple answer isn’t it!!! I wasn’t seeing the forest for the trees ha ha . Sometimes it gets overwhelming and that is why it is so good to have a fellow Christian to simply point the way back to the path!!!
Aw, well you’re more than welcome! 🙂 God bless your family’s journey.
We had the privilege to visit Voddie’s church last year – and were in awe of the teens and families in his congregation. He is definately leading people in the right, biblical direction based on the “fruit” we saw within the families under his leadership. Kuddos to all these men for speaking up and opening up the controversial subject of youth ministry.
I’m am done with this conversation for now. It is exhausting to say the least. Our church has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 10 years. We have not watered down our message. In fact the new families coming in say they are refeshed by the message because it is not just tickle your ear teaching. We have many new christians coming, those who were unchurched or badly churched. When asked by other churches in the area “what are you doing over there?” (We have an old building with no parking in a downtown area where most churches are declining, but we are busting at the seams.) Our pastor only has one response. We preach the word and the spirit does the rest. I am not going to concern myself with whether or not our children’s program is “Biblical”. The fact or “fruit” is our church has outgrown our santcuary. We do not have enough seating for everyone and our children are learning how to worship just like everyone else. They just happen to do it in an overflow area. We are one in the body whether we happen to be in the same room or not. God Bless.
I think you’ve shown great wisdom here, RF. Your church produces good fruit in all its aspects, from SS to sermons, because it preaches the truth; period. That’s what counts. God bless you.
I am so very anxious to see this documentary! My prayer is that it takes our society by storm and causes us to freeze in our tracks and take a serious look at the way we “do” church.
I have no interest in seeing this film, since I disagree so strongly with the premise and there are extremists on the subject in the film, but the young men who made it created some other films that look amazing. Here’s their site: http://leclercbrothers.com
I must say that I’ve gotten tired reading all these comments. 🙂 Ya’ll have been busy.
I personally believe that family integrated worship is the best way to go but hard to find. The church we attend does some of both. In the summer there are no segregated services on Wednesday night because our Pastor believes that it is good for the youth to experience corporate worship. During the school year they have Master’s Club on Wedesday night. Then on Sunday night there is only nursery provided up to age 3. Babies and children are always welcome in our worship services. Uncontrolled children are disciplined by parents and taken out of the service for a time if necessary. There is a local “mega” church which has signs posted discouraging children in the santuary! ( I just couldn’t believe that!)
Our church has a huge bus ministry and provides a children’s church service on Sunday morning. They also go out on Saturday and teach children through the bus ministry. It has proven to be very fruitful.
The teenage group have a youth ministry which includes soul-winning on Wed. and Sunday afternoons. Also, VERY fruitful and wonderful training for these young people.
Now all that being said. We will allow our children to attend the teen youth functions until we decide they shouldn’t. However, we will not allow them to go to overnight functions nor to youth camps. Too many times these young people go to youth camps and come home with experiences they shouldn’t have had. Over-protective? Yes, by worldly standards most definitely. Do I care if you think so — No! We, the parents, are responsible to our Father for our decisions. Just as you, the parents, are responsible for yours to our Father.
As far as those sex sermons – too funny! There is no comparasion to a sermon, preached from God’s word, to “lessons” on sex in a public school. Firstly, a pastor/teacher will be very careful choosing his words, it will be from a man/woman marriage standpoint, if it’s truly Christ’s church it will contain “outside of marriage is sin” all of which is good for children and adults to hear on a regular basis.
Public school sessions on sex … well it’s a whole ‘nother flavor. Lot’s of visual aids and demonstrations, any of which you please is okay and marriage?? How archaic! Really!
Children learn the ways of the world far quicker than they should w/o any help from us parents and usually against our wishes. We strive to keep the hearts of our children so that they trust us and listen to us when they are young adults. I think that time comes much quicker than many and will expect my 13 yr. old to start behaving like a man / woman by stepping up to the plate,doing what is right in God’s sight w/o having to be continuously prompted.
You know, we need a church family. Hebrews says not to forsake the assembly. We are to bear each others burdens and w/o a church family how will you help other Christians bear their burdens? Jesus deserves our time, effort and tithe – the best of it, not what’s left over! If we love Him we will obey Him. It takes a lot of time to assess a church and weigh it by Biblical standards to see if it is a fit place to serve but we must do it. Be Bereans!
That’s my 2cents. Gotta go help fix a fence now before hubby comes hunting me – again. 😉
Sounds like you have a great thing, Grace. I did love Youth Camp, and went with my mom and usually my sisters. It was a beloved time and I hope to go again next year; I loved learning, and then teaching! Teaching younger kids was a precious thing. The few times there were truly rotten apples (trouble-making kids) they were rooted out by their own behavior almost instantly and didn’t return to camp. Which is sad, but discipline’s needed.
“There is no comparasion to a sermon, preached from God’s word, to “lessons” on sex in a public school”
The difference is that the sex lessons are age-appropriate in public school. Or, at least they used to be; no telling what think-tanks like PP have done. I speak from my own experience here.
And just to comfirm, we were never taught any sex is alright; the school nurse came down and told us, even showed with medical photos, the whole ugly truth. I remember my psych teacher even said once, after the subject of sex came up, “Sex is great fun, if you’re MARRIED.”
Jennifer, if that were all there was to it today then I wouldn’t have such a problem with it. Today … well, all I can say is that its a whole horse of a different color. Today’s children are getting taught that whatever you can come up with is a-okay. These young people today have very inappropriate ideas about what is s** and what is not. What we experienced is very different from todays public school environment.
As for youth camps and such, I’ll still err on the side of caution. If I’m not there or Dad’s not there then they don’t go. It’s a risk I’d just as soon not take.
I have a great church, Jennifer. I’ve found a Pastor that teaches strictly from Scripture. God’s word is it’s foundation and it’s growing, oh my but it’s growing. God is so good and He’s using this man to draw many to Christ and then discipling them so they know how to live a life that is pleasing to Jesus Christ.
Have you ever stopped to think how many blessings we have day by day? Small mundane things like the light turning just at the right time, missing the wreck that happens right in front of you because something caused you to pause, having access to something at just the right time, oh so many things! How many blessings have you received today?
One of these days I might have to start a blog just so I can get some answers to some of these questions. I’d love to have people answer them, because I love to see Him in action!
Yes, school has definitely gotten worse.
As for small blessings, are you kidding? I love ’em 🙂 I can be as blind and ungrateful as the worst of ’em, but when I see them.. Yesterday I was with my mom when she shopped for some clothes for a sick friend at JCPenny’s in the mall. We got the parking space closest to the store, unheard of. After my mom wandered aimlessly around the men’s clothing, she asked a woman for help and in less than four minutes, the woman had helped us get everything. I love everything in my life, from the fact that we can afford those incredible fruit smoothies to my old cartoons late at night that offer me a huge boost. God is amazing at all levels.
AMEN! to that sister!
I don’t have the time to read through all 90+ comments. I just wanted to say that looks like an excellent documentary and I look forward to seeing it!
When we still went to a church building to worship (we home church right now) and had our first daughter, we were asked every single week when we would allow our daughter to go to the nursery. And the children’s church minister would tell us after every service that he couldn’t wait to get our daughter into children’s church.
He was a little disappointed when we informed him that that wouldn’t happen. Ever. Not that he wasn’t a good man. He was. Not that he wasn’t reaching the children in his ministry. He was.
However.
Having worked in a couple of different children’s church ministries, often they’re little more than a babysitting service so the adults can have yet more time away from their children. Only this time for the sake of worshiping God.
I’m sorry, but we have no interest in our children hearing watered down versions of the Gospel. We have no interest in our children attended services catered to draw their interest and often resemble something that you could find at any worldly child/pre-teen/teen gathering. Our children have always stayed with us during worship and they always will. It’s not always the easiest, but they learn and they grow in Christ.
Children aren’t stupid. Things will be over their heads, sure, but they’ll pick up more than most parents will give them credit for. They’ll understand more than we think.
If age-segregation in the Church actually worked (and I don’t think it does in the least) …. then why is the Church in the state it’s currently in? Why ARE so many youth leaving the Church for the world?
Because age segregation has nothing to do with it; the hearts of the teachers and parents do. Blaming it on kids not being with their parents for every second of church activity is a cheap road to take, blaming the method instead of the people.
Ok, just one more comment. I already said I was done. But I just have to chime in just once more. There have been many examples of bad youth programs out here. I alreay told of a great one (the one at our current church.) But I wanted to give one more example of one that was great. The one I grew up in. I still keep in contact with the kids from my high school youth group. I can say that 100% of us still go to church.
That same church did away with youth group sometime after I graduated and before my three younger siblings had a chance to attend. My younger siblings did not attend church regularly after they left home. (One brother has since returned to church after college.) My parents believe that the youth ministry at our church gave my older sister and I a peer accountability group. A group of friends that prayed for each other and did life together. I gave us an opportunity to see faith played out in other children. It wasn’t just something our cooky parents believed in, but our peers too.
Thank you for the scripture that explains corporate worship. I see it applying to our church as well. We are all gathering together with other believers, we just can’t all be in the same room together. Just like the body of christ as a whole does not meet in the same church all at once it is just not possible.
My personal experience with youth group was non-existent. My parents said that after I was confirmed I could make my own decision about participating in youth group. I had no interest in it at all. In confirmation/catechism class, I remember our pastor saying that he was upset that there were so many more kids showing up for the social activities than for the Bible studies (they alternated from week to week).
In my current parish, our youth group meets weekly for Bible study after the last Sunday morning service ends (~12:15 pm), which means that they can attend church with their parents. They have done many forms of both mission and ministry — putting door hangers announcing VBS, visiting parishioners who are shut-ins or in assisted-living facilities/nursing homes, assisting in the nursery, participating in some kind of famine and getting sponsors to raise $ for a Christian organization that disburses the funds to the hungry, and that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head. Of course, they have social activities, too. We also have a great team of adults to work with them — single men and women, as well as married couples.
On another note, parents can keep infants and toddlers (or older children for that matter) in church with them, but most opt to send them to nursery or Sunday school. There isn’t pressure either way.
However, except for the nursery, children in Sunday school are dismissed to sit with their parents right before we receive the Eucharist, which we celebrate weekly. Parents bring their young children to the altar with them and if they believe their kids understand the meaning of Eucharist/Holy Communion, the children can receive it. If not, the priest gives them a blessing. After the Eucharist, there are more prayers and at least two more songs/hymns. So our children have Sunday school + time with their parent(s) in church.
hi, I am really happy to see that people are waking up to the truth: god made people to be families within God’s family. I think that most children’ ministries today are actually evangelistic, more an outreach instead of really be for the edification of the church. And so, the building up of the church concerning children should really be a ministry of its own where kids stay with the parents for the main sermon and then they each can split up to play or study together with their peers later. Even today’s Christian parents are not all ready to fully take the responsibilities of godly parenting or it takes time to get it righ. But the children and youth ministry should really be only for an outreach, because then the use of wordly entertainment would definitely attract the world in the church until the real issue has to be faced: God wants everyone to be fully living forever and that requires to let go of the ways of the world. As believers, we have to bear the world’s ways, but that does not mean we promote them and keep them as we grow in the Lord. That’s my opinion and I think the focus for today’s churches is strengthening the family with God’s ways! After all, God is our Father and we are his children: christianity is about restoration of families for the glory of God!
I am old enough to remember how young people were already leaving the churches in droves in the 50’s and early 60’s. The things like youth groups, etc., were put in place to stop the hemorrhage, but unfortunately it didn’t work. The idea that church was great and kids were happy with it until the churches got greedy and seeker-sensitive and started youth programs to pander to them, is not accurate. I remember. Like Europe (we are about 10 years behind them), young people started leaving all churches by the late 50’s. The youth programs were a desperate measure put into place to try to stop it. Unfortunately it didn’t work. I remember being Catholic back in the 50’s and early 60’s, and the young people were already starting to find church irrelevant, and I remember them sending a young priest around to talk to us young people one Sunday after church to try to get us interested in our faith once again. I don’t have the answers. We are in the great falling away, the last days. We can pray, though, for our families and neighbors. Youth programs are not the answer; neither is back-to-the-future. No human solution. Only prayer and asking God for mercy.
Also, I remember how the ADULTS had already stopped coming to church back in the 50’s, where I lived. I knew only very few of my parents’ friends who attended church. The nuns (I went to Catholic school) knew this, and in desperation, started “the children’s mass,” which was the 9:00 a.m. mass. It was no different from regular mass, but at 9 a.m., parents could drop their kids off and the nuns would keep an eye on them while the parents (like mine) went back to bed. They figured at least they’d get the children going to church if the parents didn’t care. Parents must care. Families should go to church together. I like family-integrated, by the way, but don’t know if that would get young people and youth any more interested in church. Couldn’t hurt.
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I just watched this film for the first time. However, I have been so unhappy about our churches policy on no children under jr high allowed in the sanctuary. I had my fith baby 6 months ago, and have had a baby that was nursing the whole time we have attempted our church so I am consistently missing out on the sermons. They play the sermons in a separate fellowship hall via satellite on a huge screen, and you can hear it in the court yard but it still isn’t the same. My husband likes the kids ring in Sunday school because he says its a great social time for them since we homeschool, and we do family worship daily in our home as well as bible reading and prayer time during the day so I feel like our Children are definitely being fed well. And our Sunday school curriculum is excellent but I just miss being in there and I would love to worship with my husband and children together. My question is, how do I biblically convince my husband of this? I looke on the site for family integrated churches and the closest one is 50 miles away so it’s a definite budget concern.