Christians, Pro-Life or Just Anti-Abortion?

As far as the world, and most of the
American church, was concerned, we should never have afforded more than one child–yet we have 14, with 5 successfully raised.

We have never been rich, and most of the time struggled. My husband is not a doctor or a CEO of a major corporation (it seems as though having a successful career sometimes makes things all right in a person’s mind). He has been just a “working Joe” all of our marriage.

Early on, while enjoying reading through Spurgeon’s commentary on the Psalms, we came across this adage, “Many children bring many trials, and many trials bring many prayers, and many prayers bring many blessings,” which we have found to be true repeatedly.

No matter what sort of leadership we have, no matter what our economic prospects, God will not forget His own.

Sherry

I can’t remember how I found your blog, but you are a blessing to me. Thank you for this post, there is much truth to your words. Before abortion will end in this country, we first must return to loving children, and the blessing of a fruitful womb. As long as children are seen as a curse and burden, abortion will abound. When they are seen as the blessing that the Lord has made, then, and only then, will we see abortion numbers drop.

Yes! I have seen the almost-condemnation of Christians to one of their own when they have more than one or two children, and it is sad, sad, sad!

A timely post, yet again.

Sometimes people don’t even wait for the third child to start in on the rude comments- I got it with my first. My husband and I are both young- 22 (the comments about that are another story entirely) and we found out that we were expecting about 4 months after getting married. We were thrilled! We had already decided to welcome into our family the children that God wanted us to have, in His timing, and we felt so humbled that He would choose to bless us with a child so soon. The next month I announced my news at work- the Mom’s Day Out program at my church- and then immediately wished I had never told a soul. I dodn’t know how many days I came home from work crying over the things that these CHRISTIAN women said to me or comments I overheard concerning children in general. It was disgusting and completely un-Biblical. I know that probably none of those women believe the same things I do about having children, but geez, you would think that as Christians they would at least be happy for me- they seemed to be happy for other women who announced pregnancies over that year (well except for the one who was pregnant with her fourth) but I guess I had overstepped some invisible bounds by becoming pregnant so young and newly married.

As I type this my almost 3 week old son is sleeping soundly on the bed and it makes me so sad to think of how many people asked me “was it planned?”- which in my opinion is just the more polite way of saying “do you want this baby?”. Who could say such a thing about this precious little boy? Of course I want this baby. This is the child that God chose to send to my family, who am I to reject that? And to think that if we had followed whatever unwritten rule there seems to be about waiting for 2 years before having children- Isaiah would not be here, I would never have had the chance to meet this little guy and be his mother, I would have missed God’s blessing. I just can’t fathom that.

Now, I am to take Isaiah back to Mom’s Day Out (uh, just for a visit!) to show him to all the ladies I used to work with. I don’t really want to, and I think it will be hard, but I pray that God will use the visit to open their eyes to the blessing of children and to shed His truth in their hearts.

It does seem to me that most Christians are more anti-abortion than they are pro-life.

Amy

I agree, Kelly. Anti-child attitudes are prevelant in the church, and many people who hold them wouldn’t even realize it.
I posted how I felt about the stares, comments, and attitudes a couple months back, and also how God changed my husbands and my convictions.
http://thefullquiver.blogspot.com/2008/09/weary-but-not-of-my-children-and.html
http://thefullquiver.blogspot.com/2008/08/addendum.html

I think it goes saying that Christians are pro-life in every sense. “Pure religion and undefiled is this…to visit the fatherless and the orphans in their affliction”.

We have seen a major failure of the church and family to perform here, though. If the church taught that it was a family’s duty to care for its members, and if the church picked up the slack where the family wasn’t able, socialism would have no place.

Of course I take exception with protecting women’s lives from illegal abortions. What kind of logic states it is right to legalize murder if it keeps someone from dying from a criminal choice?

If I rob a bank and shoot the teller, I risk getting shot, or arrested myself. You don’t legalize robbery to “protect” me while the teller dies??? You remind me that it is wrong to kill the teller and rob the bank! It’s an absolute.

A baby is no less worthy of life than the teller whose life is taken from the criminal.

A thought I had as I read your post again, many Anti-abortion Christians are having “unknown” abortions throught birth-control pills. I’m sure you have written on this before, but I think since you did this post, maybe you could visit or revisit (not sure which one), the abortions that birth-control pills cause.

Jess in peru again

i agree, Kelly. when one does something “wrong”, consequences will come. i do not agree that two wrongs make a right, in the case of abortion….but as it stands now, abortion is somewhat deemed ‘health care, and while i do not subscribe to that type of health care, i respect that for whatever reason, right now, it has its place in America.

my previous comment had more to do with the ‘elevation’ of either aborted fetuses, or the quiverful mindset above that of other ways the church neglects people. kind of like i feel that homosexual practice is cited and then singled out and elevated as a ‘truth’of perversion…verses any other sexual perversions. i personally wont speak out against homosexuality as i dont think the church does a justice in dealing with the rampant pornogrpahy issues many people inside it struggle with.so im certainly not going to go after anyone who practices homosexuality. so, to bring it back around, the same oges for me with abortion. if *I* am not doing all i can, and the church isnt stepping up to the plate on serving its people…why would i even have the time OR energy to speak out against homosexuality? it just doesnt seem logical.

I was interested to read your post especially since it came after overhearing a comment yesterday at church about a woman whose daughter is expecting again. I was shocked by what was said (and have just written about it on my blog). It seems that even amongst Christians there’s this idea that children are a blessing – but only if you have only two or three. After that they become a curse (hence the title on my post: Blessing or Curse?).

Thank you for sharing this.

Anon,

“And they blessed Rebekah and said to her:

‘Our sister, may you become the mother of thousands of ten thousands;’ ” Gen. 24:60

If speaking the language of Scripture is “ignorant and cruel”, I will suffer with the saints.

If God says children are a blessing – one of the best blessings He can bestow upon us – who are we to tell Him that He is wrong?

I only have 3 blessings. And 5 more in heaven. I wanted 100 kids when I was little – then once I understood how long babies took – decided I would settle for a dozen.

That is not to say that I am not highly involved with nieces, nephews, friends, and church children whenever possible. I sat down and wrote the names of all the little lives I have touched since I started working with children – many of them over 2 – 5 years each. And my list was well over 100, actually over 500! As for the ones most special to me, those top out around 100. So maybe I got my 100 blessings after all? And I’ve been delighted to see some of those starting out families of their own. I think it is wonderful.

My parents have nearly 2 dozen grandchildren (from 5 kids). They would have loved to have had more too – and we fostered over 20 children while I was growing up. I think it was great fun watching peoples faces when my parents would walk around with 6+ kids in tow – especially when we were all 7 and under!

I think children are wonderful and should be treasured as the blessings that they are, and not viewed as a curse or a burden. They don’t need or ask for tenth of the things we think that they need or have to have. My Grandma says her baby sister’s first cradle was the turkey pan. How’s that for fancy?

AM,

“Also, if someone professes a faith unlike mine, I can expect often that their guidleines for living wont mirror mine. If they dont believe in Jesus, or the Bible, why would I expect them to believe as i do on abortion?”

Agreed, which is why this post is directed at Christians. And I can give you plenty of Scripture that speaks explicitly about amonishing, encouraging, and rebuking the church, keeping each other accountable in our lives.

On the issue of abortion, I view it differently because it is a criminal activity and our Constitution is supposed to protect the innocent life of another being taken.

A non-believer may not morally agree, but the government exists to protect the lives of its citizens, and as citizens, we should be echoing and supporting that function. (If we don’t, then our right to life becomes endangered, as we see with euthansia already getting a foothold in many places.)

As a Mom to 5 gifts from the Lord, I read this post and amen’ed my way through it. After having three children biologically my womb was closed. In April we brought home our sons from Ethiopia. While we expected comments from our family and friends that are not Christians, I was taken aback by the vocal opposition and utter looks of disdain and skepticism from our church family. After 7 months and the hand of God on display, we still receive them from time to time….
We have considered these trials all joy though when we realize God is using our testimony of large families and adoption to challenge peoples acknowledged beliefs or hidden biases. We are thankful that we do have close friends within our church who also share our passion for God’s work in large families and adoption.
Sadly, though I think you are correct in saying many of our churches are anti-abortion and not truly pro-life.
Our prayer is that God continues to use us as we obediently wait on baby #6. We also pray that a true repentance of our sinful attitudes about children would wash over the church.
In Him Alone-Danielle

Amen!

Thought I’d pass along a link my MIL sent me this morning. It’s some good encouragement for what we’re about to face:
http://www.savecalifornia.com/postelectionmessage_110808.pdf

Very true. And I’d add to that supporting women in difficult situations. Sometimes I think we focus too much on the one side without giving enough support and encouragement to women who are choosing life for their children despite difficult circumstances.

Fascinating posts. I’m sorry that those of you who wanted lots of children, or had many, didn’t receive the support you wanted from your own church. I loved having babies and definitely would have had more if more had come my way. I didn’t get married until I was 35, had my first child at 36 and my second at 38. I love, love, loved my babies and now my little girls.

I don’t find the attitude of your church members, or sceptical people on the street, that hard to understand. Americans don’t really like children that much, and they really have been brought up to see other people’s children as a social problem–they cost too much in schools, doctors appointments, clothes, noise, etc…There’s been endless complaining about “welfare moms” having “too many children” that they “can’t afford.” Naturally people look at large families and say “well, why should I think you can raise your children without hand outs? Why shouldn’t I see your children as a drag on the economy?” That’s how we’ve been taught to look at other people’s children.

I, of course, agree with anonymous upthread on the abortion issue. I was ready, willing, and able to parent the two children I and my husband have. I can’t say that I was ready, willing, and able to parent dozens of children, or dozens with learning disabilities, or dozens if my husband were suddenly disabled, or if my own children had life threatening, complex illnesses that needed full time mangement. I don’t feel embarrassed to say that and I don’t feel obligated to forbid other women from making choices different from the ones I made.

This topic comes up frequently on this board and anonymous and I have both argued that a strongly anti abortion stance rests on some strange assumptions about where and how the individual’s moral predilections must take them as a matter of public policy. For instance, I’m pro-fostering children and pro adoption. Kelly has pointed out, I think, that she had many foster sisters. That’s great! Wonderful. I myself have two adopted nieces from China and until recently was the aunt of a boy adopted through DHSS. I don’t feel obligated to promote or push adoption from China as the “solution” to everyone’s problems though, just because I have very much enjoyed my nieces. There are nearly as many horror stories from orphanages and from foster care as there are success stories. Each individual who chooses to adopt or foster has to be very, very, very certain they have the strength to meet every challenge or they ultimately betray the children who are entrusted to them.

I don’t see why pregnancy is any different. I’m pro-birth control, for myself certainly and for any family that wants to use it, because I think we should give the same care to the children we choose to bring into this world that we do to deciding whether we are ready to foster or to adopt. And just as we dont’ throw the responsiblity for fostering or adopting off on g-d, I don’t see why some people think that using g-d given technology like birth control is any more ung-dly than using IVF or adoption is un-g-dly. If you seriously believe in an all powerful g-d with a destiny for each of us that is distinct and g-d chosen I don’t see why you would think that each person shouldn’t/couldn’t decide for themselves how many children they need to have. Just as, of course, in this modern world we have come to expect that the individual man or woman chooses whom they will have children with.

The straight line some draw, here, between believing that an act is bad–even believing it to be “murder” and legislating the act out of existence isn’t really as straight as some would have it. There are lots of things I disapprove of, even consider a kind of soul murder, that I wouldn’t step forward and legislate out of existence. And, of course, there are many acts in this complex world that result directly in deaths that we don’t choose to legislate out of existence or to criminalize. This is actually my area of specialization, which is legal anthropology. Early in human history societies had what we call “strict liability” for some crimes and some forms of murder. Abortion, of course, was not included in strict liability because the fetus was not recognized as a full human being and even if it had been human beings were divided by race, caste, sex, and class into those for whom reparations had to be paid and those for whom reparations didn’t have to be paid. There was a sliding scale of payments (the wer-gild or man gold of pre-christian britain being an example) for a death depending on how powerful the family was, and how important the person was.

The place where most adult people die, these days, is in factory or farm accidents, military incidents, and medical malpractice. In each of these areas we don’t have strict liability which would term those deaths “murders” and we don’t fully criminalize those who are involved in the deaths–not the people who sign the employment contracts or the doctors and nurses who make mistakes. We tend not to throw people into jail even for actions which we know and they knew would result in some death, even if the particular death was not foretold.

What can we learn from this analogy? Well, we might decide we want to really tighten up regulations relating to work place safety to prevent all unnecessary deaths. Or we might learn that we, as a society, tolerate lots of deaths of actual people because its quite costly and inhumane to punish everyone who would need to be punished to prevent any deaths.

I’m anti abortion in a sense. I love babies and I think they are great. But just because I never needed an abortion, just because my husband and I didn’t have to choose between my untimely death in childbirth, or a second special needs child, or an ectopic pregnancy, or a uterine growth, or an anencephalic baby or utter financial ruin in order to have our children doesn’t mean that I have all the information I need to make that choice for all other women in America. In fact I’m pretty sure I’m not capapble of making that determination. And I’m really sure I don’t want the responsibility of throwing women into jail, or throwing doctors into jail, for doing what they think is morally correct in any particular circumstance.

Despite the certainity expressed on this board its pretty clear that none of you actually think *other women’s embryos* are actually identical to children. If you had to choose between a live baby sitting on a railroad track and a petrie dish full of fertilized embryos in a burning building you’d pick the live baby, every time. And plenty of women agree with you. If they ahve to choose between their own live babies and families or a fertilized embryo and maternal death, or a fertilized embryo and financial ruin, or a fertilized embryo and some other personal disaster some fairly large number would choose their own priorities over the fertilized embryo. And calling that “murder” or lumping it in with “shooting a bank teller” doesn’t change the circumstances at all. The fact of the matter is that most americans don’t think a fertilized embryo is the same as a baby. And trying to legislate that notion into law would put good christian women in some very uncomfortable positions. In fact there was just a legal case about that. A hospital argued that the fetus in a nice christian mother was a full person with separate rights from hers. The hospital thought she should be forced to undergo a c-section while she and her husband wanted a normal vaginal birth. The hospital went to court to *force her to stay in their hospital and have the birth surgically* but she and her husband decamped and she had the baby sucessfully somewhere else.

Once you start legislating women’s choices from an outsider perspective you potentially extend the hand of the government and entities like doctors and scientists all the way down into the womb. If you don’t want that you might want to think twice about pushing the notion, at law, that the embryo and the fetus is a fully separate human being from the mother with fully adjudicable legal rights.

aimai

“Of course I take exception with protecting women’s lives from illegal abortions.”

What? How come?

So. . . a man who kills someone in a convenience store robbery deserves humane treatment in prison and should be spared the death penalty according to a rigorous pro life ethic, but a women or girl who seeks an abortion because her uncle raped her or because her husband will throw her out if she has another child should bleed to death or die of infection? I just don’t think it follows logically or can be argued from the teachings of Christ that women should be singled out in this way.

Well if it’s all about thinking “logically” (instead of morally) let’s imagine this scenario:

A worried woman went to her gynecologist and said:

‘Doctor, I have a serious problem and desperately need your help! My baby is not even 1 yr. old and I’m pregnant again. I don’t want kids so close together.’

So the doctor said: ‘Ok, and what do you want me to do?’

She said: ‘I want you to end my pregnancy, and I’m counting on your help with this.’

The doctor thought for a little, and after some silence he said to the lady: ‘I think I have a better solution for your problem. It’s less dangerous for you too.’

She smiled, thinking that the doctor was going to accept her request.

Then he continued: ‘You see, in order for you not to have to take care of 2 babies at the same time, let’s kill the one in your arms. This way, you could rest some before the other one is born. If we’re going to kill one of them, it doesn’t matter which one it is. There would be no risk for your body if you chose the one in your arms.

The lady was horrified and said: ‘No doctor! How terrible! It’s a crime to kill a child!

‘I agree’, the doctor replied. ‘But you seemed to be ok with it, so I thought maybe that was the best solution.

Logically now people…..

I have to laugh at the notion that you all support fetal life because it is “innocent” when you insist that we are all born sinners and that our lives and our efforts in this world mean nothing if we aren’t christians within the narrow meaning you assign to christianity. Lets get real, your sentimental weeping over aborted babies notwithstanding you don’t actually like or support the vast majority of already existing babies and children in this country. The gay ones? you don’t like them and consider them doomed. The ones on welfare? you don’t like them and consider them cheats and beggars. The ones in public school, or who watch programs you don’t like? you think they are a lost generation. The ones who are being raised in another religion, or who belong to families you deem insufficiently christian? well, you really don’t like them and see no reason, for example, that we shouldn’t bomb them to smithereens if we think it would “protect” us from harm.

There is no moral difference between a citizen who accepts the bombing of a civilian population and a woman who chooses to abort her own fetus. The woman in the first scenario, the citizen who accepts or furthers the bombing of a civilian population because her government says that will make her “safer” is choosing to place her life and her family’s life over those of other people, somewhere else. A pregnant woman and her husband who decide on abortion are, likewise, choosing to treat the fetus as a danger to them and the lives they have chosen. No moral difference. (In fact that is the rabbinical position on abortion. The fetus is analogized to a “pursuer” who the mother is entitled to treat as a danger to her life).

Talking about the innocence or cuteness of the fetus in the womb of your neighbor and ignoring the right to life of Iraqi citizens in baghdad who we bombed is mere moral sleight of hand. It enables you to feel superior to those you feel are insufficiently pro-life while actually doing nothing to save lives in the real world.

But in any event, lets pursue this thought experiment to its logical conclusion. By all means try to fully criminalize abortion–throw your neighbors, your sisters, your own mothers (in many cases) into jail for deciding they can’t physically risk another full term pregnancy. And throw the husbands and doctors in jail too. Will you end abortion? certainly not. Abortion existed long before good medical care and will continue to exist afterwards. Will you end up forcing some women to carry an unwanted or a dying child to term? sure. Will you cause some women to die who would otherwise have lived? sure.

I’m sure at this point the anti abortionists on this blog will say “but that’s not my problem! people should suffer and die for their sins!” One baby saved is all the world to me. Of course, you can’t know that “one baby is saved” and since many women choose abortion to save their own lives and fertility the baby that you think you saved simply displaces future children who would have been born had the mother not died or had her fertility impaired.

So, what made your intervention meaningful, then? In one scenario “innocent” embryos died and in the other “innocent” embryos and also lots of adult women died. In scenario A) x number of humans died, or were never born to be more accurate and in scenario B x + y number of embryos and adult women died.

The so called pro life movement embraces women who have had abortions as long as they are sorry about it afterwards and promise to spend their lives throwing other women in jail for having exercised the same rights as they did. I don’t see any of those post abortion women willingly going to jail, or terminating their own lives, on the grounds that they actually think what they did is comparable to true murder. In fact I’ve seen more fake remorse and less real restitution from these professional post abortion grievers than you see at an AA meeting.

As long as you aren’t willing to specify serious jail time for women and their doctors, and risk dying yourselves in an unmanageable childbirth, I don’t see much serious moral thought going into the discussion here.

aimai

Just to clarify:
when I quoted John 14:6, it was Jesus speaking.

A truly pro life ethic is pro All life, and doesn’t judge the worthiness of the life in question. That is reserved for God alone.

The life of the raped teenager is just as valuable as the baby she aborts. At the core of any ethical reasoning is that there is a choice that must be made. The “pro life” movement chooses to value unborn life, but at best gives lip service to unwanted children (including the majority of people on death row) and the mothers and fathers who are not able to care for the children they birth.

I see nothing of the teaching of Christ in that way.

My pastor said to me the other day when I asked him some hard questions:

“Neither our standards/norms/lifestyle issues/rules, nor our “correct” doctrine, nor exciting first experience is taking us to heaven.

But God’s GRACE (emphasis here), outpoured on those who choose to reply properly to His overtures of love, and who continuously walk in His light, provides the strength, cleansing, guidance, and indwelling Holy Spirit to help us make the heavenly landing.

The readers of this blog have an assortments of beliefs. I was raised as a 2 point Calvinist, but now I go to a Wesleyan/Arminian church.

I believe several readers are Calvinist, some Arminian, Catholic, etc.
I still consider them Christian sisters.

But regardless of “what” we believe, it does not change the truth.

Whether I am wrong or not Whethr I sin or not, or whether I make mistakes………..

It does not change the truth. I will not get into doctrinal arguments with my Christian sisters here because we will argue forever. (I think we are closer in beliefs than we realize! And only divided by terminology… I may be wrong) But I think our terminology sometimes confuses and gets us into trouble and scares some away from seeking the Lord.

Unfortunately we are flawed human beings. I will leave you with this though…

Aimai, Anonymous, agnostics, atheists, whoever is reading this.

John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life….

It’s a gift.

If I keep my eyes on PEOPLE (Christians or not) and their flaws, mistakes, sin, wrongness,etc etc I would always deny that gift because we are flawed by sin.

Btw.. Comment deleted, but I would never throw my child away regardless of his age (teen or not). I would not try to justify his sin but I wouldn’t stop loving him.

Like I said, If you watch people/me, you will most always be disappointed. I am nothing with Christ and His grace.

There are nearly a thousand foster children in my county alone, there is a “pro life” church on every corner (literally). I just don’t buy the notion that “pro life” people are lining up to take on these kids. The babies, maybe, or the “easy” ones. But clearly most of them are languishing in temporary homes during the times their hearts and minds are being formed for good.

One other point: Christians of good faith and practice disagree on these issues, and to imply as the last post does that to have this conversation in a serious way (meaning to ask for logical consistency and to question the assumptions inherent in the debate) is to not be saved is really offensive to me.

Anon and the other posters who dare to present a contrary position have in no way denied Christ or posited a non-Christian faith.

But you do believe in the Death Penalty, which I consider murder and a lot of Christians consider murder.

Have you checked your Bible for verses about the death penalty?

They are there.
If you want me to quote them, I will but I have a feeling you don’t want me to.

We can argue it until we are blue in the face but the Bible is filled with the answers.

One can also argue that slavery is approved in the bible, and stoning for adultery.

Jesus, however, had a different way of looking at things.

One can also use the slavery and stoning issue to discredit any and all verses in the Bible if they want (if they do not understand those issues as they were).

If you go back and read comments on recent posts, someone brought up the issue of slavery and how it is wrong when the person is unwilling or owe nothing to the slave-master (just like in pre Emancipation days…. WRONG.. period).

In Biblical days slavery was one means used to pay off debts.

When the person is in debt, they are enslaving themselves. So, in fact, it is still prevalent today….except it does not discriminate.

The person gets to choose who they work for ,that’s all, but they are so enslaved that they cannot give to the poor, give to the church, help those in need, or help their neighbor as they should.

It’s a whole lot worse today because the slave-owners keep adding interest rates instead of forgiving after 7 years (like they did in the Bible).

Jesus made it clear that it is hypocritical to stone if one has a sinful heart. No question there, but there is purpose for EVERY Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works.”

If we discredit some Scripture because “some” of them we misunderstand, then why even believe “any” of the Bible?

Even those verses that mention stoning, war, etc have reasons and God knew what He was doing back then. The God of the Old Testament is unchanging.

Old Testament:
Malachi 3:6 – “For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

New Testament:

James 1:17 – “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”

Because of what II Timothy says, I can rest in knowing that even though I do not understand everything, I can trust……

Anon,

Even though I mentioned that I might admit there are some gray areas to interpreting Scripture about capital punishment(just don’t have the time to research right now), the arguments are not inconsistenet to me.

God allowed for justice to be carried out in society in to protect civil order. (BTW, I don’t separate “God” and “Jesus” as having 2 different missions.)

As such, capital punishment is the just consequence for someone who breaks a civil law (murder).

Abortion is the murder of an innocent person.

Not inconsistent in the least to me.

The only inconsistency is the refusal of pro-choicers to call abortion murder.

I loved this! I remember when I was 12, my dad became extremely convicted about using birth control. He told my mom, “Melissa, we aren’t really pro-life… we’re just anti-abortion. If we were pro-life we woule let God determine how many children he wanted to send us. But we hang onto that area of our life, and simply decide to be against abortion.” After they became convicted about that, God blessed our family with 4more little lives!

Can you please publish this article again? I read this article years ago and it still has an impact on me today!! Thank-you for speaking truth! God bless you!