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“I believe one of the greatest crutches in the church is the nursery. Parents who have neglected to train their children have very little encouragement to do so when there is a place to hide them. The father who should be up in arms by the time he gets home from church because of the embarrassment to which his child subjected him ends up going home with a clear conscience while the nursery worker takes a handful of aspirin.” –Voddie Baucham
95 comments
Funny, if it weren’t so sad! I immediately thought of the church nursery when you posted your thoughts on the “closed” church last week. Many are closed to people they count on the roles as members, but can’t make room for on Sundays. It’s really a shame.
Thankfully, I think it is becoming more accepted for families to keep their children with them during services these days. When my oldest daughter was an infant, we attended a church where babies were not allowed in service. As a first time mom, I didn’t want to leave her. It felt very wrong to me… and so I didn’t. Yikes, what a ruckus that caused. We loved the folks there, but it was an unbearable situation. Thankfully, my husband got a job in another town, so we were able to easily transition to another church.
The church I currently attend has a nursery and a “children’s church” for preschoolers, which I don’t care for. However, once children reach the age of 5, they must stay in service as there is no where else for them to go:-D It’s not an ideal situation, but it’s better than some churches where all of the children are scurried out to their own individual “age appropriate” programs. So sad.
I agree…I don’t like the idea of nursery in church, though I can appreciate having somewhere to go when the really little ones are just too young to really control their crying (or somewhere to breastfeed). The thing that bugs me the most is that we advertise it as a “break” for the moms and that their kids are basically a distraction from the sermon. So, how do we deal with the “new to church” mothers, who, for whatever reasons, their kids are not well-behaved at all. How do we deal with that, as a church family?
Our church has a “cry room” for just the things you mentioned–training stage/breastfeeding, etc. It’s normal for a child to have to be removed–maybe regularly for awhile during the training process. But it’s expected that we’re in a process with the ultimate goal being back in the service eventually.
It’s the perfect place for moms to share and encourage one another toward training their little ones. The point here is 2-fold: 1. it’s the parents who are taking care of their children, and 2. the goal is to train them in, not out, of the worship service.
I wish our church saw it that way…it saddens me the way people look a the very few infants we do have that occasional make a noise. Actually…I can think of 1, maybe 2 children in diapers in our entire 150+ attendance each Sunday. We even had a woman come up to a mother with a fussy child during service and asked her to leave and go to the nursery…I can’t remember if she ever came back…
We’re dealing with this right now in our church. The pastor actually made a home visit to our friends who are trying to train their 1yo to stay in the service. They do it in the balcony and take her out after a few peeps, but the pastor says those few peeps are as distracting as a cell phone!
We are going to start working on our children here at home. We are going to set up a mini “pew” in the living room and have pretend church time a couple times a week. I’ll have a cloth bag with a few crayons, notebooks, etc, that are only pulled out on Sundays and for these practices.
Kate,
Oh my…it’s one thing to *have* a nursery; it’s something else entirely to pressure parents or in some cases make it mandatory that children stay there. That, I think, is an outcry and a terrible symptom of what we’ve done through the birth control slippery slope that ultimately causes us to devalue children and we don’t even know it.
I heard someone say: “we (the church) hate children”. Some think that preposterous; I say it’s not about our lip service, it’s about our worship service. Do we “let the little children come”, or do we despise their presence? Jesus had something to say about that.
Oooooh, ouch!! lol
We’ve so far never attended church that encouraged family worship. 🙁 So it was extra hard for us, with people not understanding why we didn’t just drop out “troublesome” children in the nursery and enjoy a child-free service. What we ended up doing was keeping them with us until 2 yo, and then sending them to Sunday School. But honestly, if God blesses us again, I will talk to dh about waiting, because our last two were just *not* ready for class at 2 and really needed more training with us and some maturity. I felt bad for their teachers, and when I taught the 2-3 yo class, I always thought it was just silly. It was basically babysitting, no Bible-learning. Even though I know from experience that a 2 yo can listen and comprehend more than one would expect, and I tried my best to be a good teacher, when you have 15 toddlers in one room, the only word for that is: CHAOS
Maybe those with children just need to go to a Pentecostal church! I work in the children’s ministry. Although I do have some problems with it, I know the Lord has me here because He told to to work here with my hubby. Our church has it available, but they don’t care if children are in the service (2 1/2 hrs long), either. In fact, there is so much “talking back” to the pastor, that children’s noises are insignificant! How perfect!
Hmm…I think I have to disagree on this one. While I do think the attitude of not allowing babies (or children) in service is wrong, I do not think that having a nursery is a bad thing. And I certainly don’t think that anyone should be looked down upon or made to feel bad for having not having their baby in service them.
We need to remember that the church is not only about ministering to the body of believers, but it should also be beacon to the community. Not everyone who walks in the door is at the same place spiritually and may not be ready to have their baby/toddler sitting with them in service.
What about the druggy mom who has been trying to get her life back together and decides to come to church for the first time one morning only to find that there is nowhere for her take her baby (who she absolutely loves but totally needs a break from). Is this really the time and place for her to try to train her baby to sit quietly on her lap? I would say no. This mom needs a quiet, focused time of worship and the Word to minister to her broken spirit. Then when she has grown in her walk with the Lord, THEN perhaps she’ll be ready to bring baby in with her. In the meantime, she’ll be able to relax and let the Holy Spirit minister to her knowing that her baby is being well cared for by people who love the Lord.
Our nursery workers pray over the babies and sing with them. They rock and hold them. They know that each one is precious and may come from a home where mom and dad are not walking with the Lord. Even in the nursery the name of Jesus is praised.
Wow….quite the discussion here.
Our7( going on 8) children are almost the only kids in church during the service where we attend now. The teens sit in a group in the front. Our teens sit with us…our teens have their Bibles open taking notes as they follow the sermon. We allow the middle children to look at children’s bible story books or draw. We have a busy Bible for the toddlers and they may draw also. We have water in sippy cups and a simple snack for the youngest child ( even though there is a sign on the door to not bring food into the sanctuary).
Yes, occassionally cheerios fly all over the place….or the baby gets to laughing and can’t stop!( such a happy sound in service!) Yes, usually a child bumps their head on the pew and need to leave. Sometimes the toddler needs a potty break.
It’s strange, out of 500 or so attendees…if the baby cries, people stop me in the hall afterwards asking if the baby is OK and what happened!!! And if a child is missing b/c of sickness, the older folks around ask: ” Where’s the little girl with blond hair?”
Me: ” Well, she’s home b/c she’s sick today.”
them: ” But, where is the little girl with blond hair?”
Me: ” She’s not here today b/c she’s sick.”
them in a dissapointed voice: ” ohhhhh”
Between SS and the service, if we dropped our children off at their “age-appropriate classes”…they would be there for 3 hours. My husband and I feel that they get more benefit from hearing the music and sermon than merely associating with their peer group.( whom my children tell me have abominable behavior in the classrooms…tearing toys out of the toy closet and throwing them, jumping over chairs and running around the room and not listening to the teacher, ect.) As a parent, I have noooo problem limiting my kids exposure to bad behavior!
When we first attended this church, several people politely informed me where the nursery was. Now that they see how well-behaved our children are…they sit amazed and constantly tell me what a joy it is to see a family worshipping together.
There is a place for the nursery for feeding purposes/diaper changes/ and calming a fussy baby/ or even to allow a few minutes of play…toddlers are mobile. And there needs to be a spot for the new -to -Christ folks where the rest of the body can minister to them also in their time of need.
Most of the time , however, I feel that all these age-segregated “classes” are just a drop-off point..even though most teachers and worker/ volunteers do have a heart for service unto the Lord using their skills with children for Him.
Sadly, after almost a year of going to this particular church, I STILL don’t know which children belong with which parents! Noooo idea!
I definitely agree. I grew up in a large church where they not only had a nursery, but one children’s church for 2 year olds through kindergarten, and another children’s church for 1st grade through 3rd grade. They weren’t training them for “big church,” here, they were having songs which required lots of moving, puppet shows, games, coloring time, etc. It was also “cool” for the youth group kids (6th-12th) to sit in their own reserved “section” of the auditorium rather than with their families. *sigh* It’s been such a gradual progression, from family-integrated to Sunday school to family-segregated, with full blown children’s ministries, youth group, college ministries, women’s ministries, etc. Thanks for this little post!
Dawn, perhaps you’ll note that Baucham did not say that nursery was bad. He said it was a crutch.
Amen…we go to church as a family, we don’t get seperated…thanks for sharing..Blessing, Heidi
Our church has a ‘cry room’ too, a concept I do like, but we’ve nick-named it the ‘bad parenting room’. We try to avoid it as much as possible, because our kids own behavior tends to regress when they watch all the badly behaved kids in that room.
It’s not that we’re perfect, far far from it, but we used the room while we were training our kids in proper church behavior. It seems like many (not all, but many) of the people in the cry room use it in lieu of training.
Training for church is not easy, but as the woman who writes about tomato-staking says, the training for obedience is done at home. If your child understands how to obey, then church is not much different than anywhere else.
I like childrens’ churches, when they don’t last the whole service, and when they focus on delivering a gospel message in a simpler, easy for kids to follow manner.
Dawn, you wrote: “We need to remember that the church is not only about ministering to the body of believers, but it should also be beacon to the community. Not everyone who walks in the door is at the same place spiritually and may not be ready to have their baby/toddler sitting with them in service.”
And I do agree with you on that point.. we have had young mamas come to our church alone with several toddlers and/or infants who are in no way ready to sit through a lengthy church service. If these mamas kept their children with them, they would get little out of what was being presented, and they likely would be so uncomfortable or embarrassed that they would never return. In truth though, how often is the church nursery being used by families such as this, or by other searching newcomers? For the most part the nursery is used by families who are regular attendees or members of the church.
I think a better solution than a regular nursery “ministry” would be for some of the older women in the church to take special notice of such families and offer to care for their little ones as they get used to the church experience. As I said, my current church does have a nursery for the main service, but not for prayer and Bible study services. Some other ladies and myself have taken it upon ourselves to quietly approach families who appear to be struggling and- in a kind and non-judgmental way- offer to amuse their little ones, get them a snack, or take them to the restroom. It’s nothing we have ever talked about or planned, it has just happened.
Sometimes it helps to think outside of the box. The traditional way of handling difficult situations is not necessarily the best way.
Just my 2 cents;-)
I wonder how many people suddenly feel “ready” to train & keep their children with them when we provide free babysitting and pressure them to use it.
Dawn,
Though there are several directions I could take your comment, (and I know that you are offering well-intentioned thoughts) the over-arching problem, as it relates to the post, is what Emsue observed:
“Then when she has grown in her walk with the Lord, THEN perhaps she’ll be ready to bring baby in with her.”
It is clear that this great-sounding idea isn’t reality. If nurseries are the standard, it becomes the accepted practice. Most nurseries are filled with children whose parents are Christians but yet are still not “ready”.
It parallels the same idea as the birth control mentality of the church. We could argue that BC should be available for certain situations, but the reality is, once it is made available, it becomes the standard.
Our starting place must always be right, and then we find solutions around that point. Pragmatism leads to other problems, and never back the right beginning point.
I’m so thankful that my parents took a stand like this when I was young. There were many times that they were approached and “reminded” of the nursery/Sunday School location, but my Dad always replied, very graciously, “Thank you, but we like to worship together.”
As I grew older, the church we attended became more and more family-oriented, to the extent that the teenagers would constantly help these struggling moms with their little ones. It was not uncommon for me to sit with a family that had 6-8 little ones, to assist during services. After church it was a contest to see who could snatch up the babies first. And believe me, the “non-segregated” attitude has so helped me in my life. I don’t have to be with peers, they can’t teach me anything anyway. I love being around and learning from those of all ages.
The church we’re in now is also family-oriented and encourages parents to train their children to sit in the service. My husband and I wouldn’t have it any other way!
We’ve been attending a family-integrated church for 2 years now, started when our oldest was 2 1/2. It was a bit of a transition, of course, but we managed. Part of the decision was visiting a pentecostal church with a nursery and NOT liking the lack of care she received there. (Her diaper was never changed one Sunday.) We tried to seat her with us at the pentecostal church, but then saw the service through her eyes, left before it was over and never went back. Now we’re training our 18 mo-old and though I thought it would be easier to start from the ground up, I’m finding that every stage, every age has it’s own challenges.
Our pastor says from the pulpit that if you’re not having family worship at home, you’re roping the entire congregation into your once-a-week worship training! (So they highly, highly encourage daily familiy worship as the proper place to train them for Sunday.)
As a college student, I worked with 5 year-olds on the Sunday evening class in a major denomination. The materials we were given to teach them included one lesson with the deeply significant subject “I SEE MY FRIENDS AT CHURCH.” Even then we knew that was watered down rubbish, tossed it out the window and tried to instruct them in deeper matters – but the materials provided can be SO INSIPID! And the parents had NO clue!
Our children are in church with us now, but we used to go to a church like Kate’s. The children were not allowed in the sanctuary because of the importance of hearing God’s Word…There should be nothing to distract, was the motto. I didn’t realize then how ‘hateful’ it was towards children. I am so thankful for the family of believers we meet with now…and the quote from Voddie Bauchum is so true.
My husband was horrified by the fact that our children could not sit still for an hour and a half…The training began. (LOL)
When I was only six years old, children’s church was cancelled one day and I had to sit through the service. God used the sermon that day to bring me to repentance and faith in Christ. I didn’t understand all of it, but it made enough of an impression on me to go to my Christian mother and ask questions. She shared the gospel with me again, and that night I KNEW I needed Jesus. My life has never been the same!
So, Amen Voddie Baucham. I’m a big supporter of children hearing the preaching of God’s word. I think they understand more than we imagine!
Our family has not been to a ‘steeple and pew’ type church in over 18months now. We have worshipped with a few other families in a home church until a few months back. There were just a few families meeting, two are on the mission field now and the other two have moved away. My husband leads our family in worship. Other family members have been talking to us about how “backsliden” we are because our family isn’t attending a church. The reason we turned to home church was because we cannot find a church that will allow our children to come into the service with us. I can’t count the number of churches that we have visited only to BE TURNED AWAY because we wouldn’t put our children in the nursery. I am not stretching the truth here! We have driven for over an hour to attend a new church only to be told that we must leave if we wern’t going to take our children to nursery. This is a HUGE matter of prayer for us right now. We’ve been praying about moving so that we can find a church home. My husband was unemployed for over 18months and has been working for just about 6months now. He is looking for jobs in other areas and states and we are praying that God will show us what He will have us to do. We desire to worship with other believers but so far have found no church that teaches God’s word and loves children enough to allow them through the doors of the sanctuary.
I wouldn’t attend a church where I was forced to send my kids to a nursery or children’s church. However, I don’t see anything wrong with having a nursery or cry room available for very young children. My 3.5-year-old had a bad day in church on Sunday (just couldn’t sit still, talking a little too loudly) — would Mr. Baucham have told me I wasn’t training her correctly? If I understand his comment correctly, if your children aren’t perfect in his church, the parents would be reprimanded about training and discipline? Maybe I misunderstand here. I hope so; that quote kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
Obviously if a child is screaming loudly and disruptive, a parent should take them out. I just mean normal kids stuff (wiggling in the seat, maybe whispering loudly to a sibling, etc).
I’m blessed to attend a church that loves kids and encourages family worship, and doesn’t mind happy children noises. Families are strongly encouraged to attend together but there is a nursery area you can go and a special area for nursing moms that’s private.
Lisa ND – I think all Baucham was saying was that a father is going to be very motivated, naturally, to deal w/ his child’s training issues when he has to sit right next to misbehavior for an hour. He didn’t imply anything about reprimanding of parents. I seriously doubt that he expects children to be perfect. He has 5 kids, I think 4 of them are boys and 2 or 3 are still very young. He knows what little kids are like.
I repeat, all he said of nursery was that it’s a crutch.
We love our nursery at church! It’s a way for moms and dads to be able to be in service and be able to concentrate. Meanwhile, the little one(s) are having fun in the nursery. The rules are that if you have a kid in nursery you have to volunteer at least once or twice a month. We have a lot of fun when we do volunteer and we get to know other moms while working in there. It’s such a blessing to sit in church during worship and the sermon without the distractions of babies crying or playing to loudly. However, it’s not a forced issue to put baby in nursery. We created a crying room and will soon have a monitor in there to be able to hear the sermon so moms who keep their babies can go in there and still here the sermon. Love the nursery!
Forgot to mention the nursing room with couches and changing table with a monitor to listen to sermon. As a mom, I really do appreciate nursery and the crying room and nursing room. I think moms should have a choice though and not be forced to put their kids in the nursery. Some moms can be insensitive though to those around them when people are trying to listen and their child is being distracting.
Lisa,
To emphasize Lori’s correct interpretation…Baucham said: “Parents who have neglected to train their children”…he’s not talking about normal child-like behavior, but a *neglect* that should naturally cause embarrassment. If there is a place to “hide” them, the parents get off Scot free from their responsibilities.
Virginia,
“without the distractions of babies crying or playing to loudly”…this comment is so sad to me, and symptomatic of an anti-biblical view of children, even if you’re unaware of it.
Yes, cry rooms for Moms to take their children are very appropriate, as I’ve mentioned in the comments, provided that the ultimate goal is to work our way back into the worship service.
Removing children from church has negative implications on many levels (I’ve mentioned a few in the thread.) But your comment here that I’ve quoted is the foundational error of our thinking regarding children.
It’s the same thing the disciples said to Jesus–“the children are in the way”–when He rebuked them.
And here again, the fundamental element of parental training is being missed. It is perfectly acceptable for parents to train and expect small children to be able to sit relatively still and quiet (I witness it every Sunday in many, many families). There is little “distraction” in this case. We in essence excuse the parents’ responsibility (Baucham’s main point) and blame the children for being “distracting”.
How ’bout a separate room for parents who have neglected child-training? That would be more appropriate to me.
One last thought…what we “love” is not necessarily the right thing. I would enjoy a lot of different things at church that are not appropriate for worship service. I’m not trying to be harsh, please understand, just trying to present a different side/thought to our ingrained practices. I used to be a nursery-lovin’ gal myself 😉
“Without the distractions of babies crying or playing to loudly”
I don’t see this as anti-child at all, just plain reasonable. Of course older children should be trained to behave in church, but we have a 9-month-old who goes to the nursery every Sunday and loves it (as do the women who look after the babies-no aspirin there). I think people like Baucham often exaggerate issues with children, or at least babies, and take umbrage at the idea that families who put noisy INFANTS with adult care are anti-child.
Another thing I’d ask readers to consider, because sometimes we just don’t think of it until we’re challenged, is the parallel, evolutionary structure of the church and the public school system.
Age segregation has not always been practiced and was viewed, early on, as a negative paradigm. We adopted the evolutionary structure from the public school system and imposed it upon families in the church. Age-segregation has a number of negative implications, one of which is removing the spiritual responsibility from the parents.
(They’re “getting it” at church…job done.)
Ultimately, we bought it (and defend it) because it’s the easiest thing, without even asking if it’s the best thing.
Thanks, Lori and Kelly, I understand better what he’s trying to say now (regarding parent responsibility). Makes much more sense to me now.
From other material I have seen from Dr. Baucham, I don’t believe he exaggerates these issues(it’s hard to make a judgement on the man from one quote). However, there are plenty of examples in North American churches where the issues are simply ignored for the sake of convenience.
It is a convenience for parents to use nursery or children’s church INSTEAD of training their children, and unfortunately these services have turned into nothing more than free babysitting. No one here is denying that there needs to be a seperate ‘training’ room available when necessary. However, if it is necessary for me to use that training room every week – or leave my children with another adult to give me a break every week – then as a parent, I am doing something wrong.
Our church has both infant/toddler and primary grade children’s classes that start just before the pastor’s sermon. We have allowed our daughter to attend occasionally (there is a certain amount of peer pressure when she is the only kid staying in the service). But it is important for her to remain with us in service regularly, too. Good listening skills and learning to sit still are a necessity.
Jennifer – “I think people like Baucham often exaggerate issues with children, or at least babies, and take umbrage at the idea that families who put noisy INFANTS with adult care are anti-child.”
Baucham – “The father who should be up in arms by the time he gets home from church because of the embarrassment to which his child subjected him”
Child. Not baby.
By the way, I think that in this quote, Baucham was anti-(oblivious)parent. No anti-child attitude.
Lisa, I read it a couple times myself to get the flavor or the quote. 🙂
Jennifer,
the problem is that I don’t see a ton of folks who put their infants in the nursery bringing them into the sanctuary later on. When is the “magic” age to quit using the nursery? It never happens for some because the nursery is just too convenient. We keep our 3 yo & 3 month old with us and most people don’t even notice them. We sit near an exit & when the little one gets hungry, I slip out to nurse him then come back. If I miss anything during that time, my husband can fill me in. Yeah it might be easier for me not to have to rock a baby in a pew, but motherhood is not about me. And I can focus better with my kids in my lap without wondering what they’re up to down the hall.
Kelly- it’s crazy you mentioned that parallelism- we were just talking about that last night!
I recently discovered V.B. through your site and I have just been blown away! I just want to jump up and down when I stream his sermons. This particular subject is an interesting one to me. I became involved with the children’s ministry at my church because I was new and had kids and wanted to serve in some way. I want to serve and I love kids, so I thought this was exactly what I needed to do. I’ve become jaded though. It’s basically glorified daycare. We have lots of materials and are supplied with nice curriculum packages, but the kids I see have no idea what I’m talking about. I can tell they have no biblical training at home, nor any behavior training. Here it is, 7 months into the Sunday school year and my biggest accomplishment so far is that most of the kids sit still for most of the bible story, and maybe 2 will be able to answer a question after we’re done. It’s just gotten me to really consider the idea of family worsip.
Regina,
I love that…being confronted with a “new” idea (as I was) and then kind of doing a forehead slap. That’s the whole purpose of this blog.
What I am going to say, I say in a spirit of wanting to learn, not attacking or accusing.
Kelly (WW), are you sure this is a command that is for everyone, and not just something that God has laid on your own heart? I totally agree with your posts on courtship and homeschooling, but this issue seems to be one where when I’m reading it, I agree, but I can’t actually articulate the position for myself. And I’m pretty good at articulating. So it seems to me that this isn’t an area where God is convicting me–my inability to make the argument my own makes me think I am adopting a standard because it is a conviction of those I respect, not because it is a conviction of my own, and trying to follow a conviction that is not my own is potentially legalism.
When my daughter was a baby, I did keep her with me. I was breastfeeding, so I usually sat in the parents’ room, though sometimes I would start out with my husband. She was in the nursery only when I was working there. And I know I could never leave her if she weren’t okay with it. I still remember sitting back there–the sound didn’t work well at that time (they fixed it around when I stopped using it) and it made me feel like a second-class citizen in God’s kingdom. My husband was the “sound guy” (almost exclusively at that point) so he would at least troubleshoot things when it wasn’t working and make sure it got turned on, but it felt like my hearing the sermon wasn’t a priority. But maybe that’s just me being oversensitive.
Then one day Hannah went into the nursery herself while I was sitting in the foyer watching her before service. So she stayed in nursery, and I went in with my husband, and ever since she’s been in nursery.
Then came Peter, and since he wasn’t breastfeeding, I couldn’t see why not to put him in nursery. (And the nursery people were delighted to have him.) Hannah is a very active 20-month-old and Peter is almost 2 months. I love them both to pieces and I wouldn’t want to be away from them for long very often; I trust God with my womb and would love to have another very close in age to Peter, and as many children as God would give me. I certainly don’t abdicate my responsibility to teach them about God to the church. I actually didn’t really think anything of this post until I started reading the comments.
We don’t really have a family worship time. When I first read about that, I thought “when would we?” but then I realized there is time for it in the evening before or after dinner. It’s something I would like to have, but one of many things that never quite happens. I’m also not sure how much I can plan/prepare/push for that without usurping my husband’s place as the spiritual head of the household? He is a great man but we are so busy and tired with the new little one, and usually he is only able to spend a couple hours each day with Hannah (though I don’t think he would mind part of that being family worship). I don’t want to nag him and I’m not sure how much I can suggest something without it becoming that?
I want my children to have a spiritual heritage and to know that their father and I truly reverence God, but I’m not sure they need to be in the service with us to do that. Maybe God is convicting me on this now; I don’t know. Obedience is an issue we are still working on with my daughter as well. I am not sure she is capable of sitting through the whole service (or that sitting still so long should be expected of a child so young–isn’t that part of an objection many people have to government schools?).
Last week we attended a different church because my brother-in-law was preaching there. Most of them are related to my sister-in-law and they don’t have an official nursery. It is a very small church, around 30 people. My sister-in-law’s mother offered to take my baby and I let her, and gave her his bottle. He made not a peep the whole service. Hannah was a different story–we tried to have her sit with us, but she was delighted to see her cousins (4yob with autism, and two girls 6 months older and 6 months younger than her). She sat with them a while, then they were acting up so their mom took them to a back room. But she still wanted to sit with her uncle, and was interested in the booster seat they’d brought for her younger cousin. I moved up next to her so that my brother-in-law didn’t have to be watching her. Then he got up to preach. After a little bit she walked up to the front to see him–which cute as it was, was a little embarrassing. We tried holding her but she squirmed and protested, so I took her to the back room and my sister-in-law was willing to watch her (the three girls aren’t harder to watch than two). The other family with kids was in the back row–they had two boys and the entire floor in front of that row was covered in books and toys. We hadn’t really thought out ahead of time how to keep her occupied, though. Not sure what would work.
It’s too far away to attend that church on a regular basis, even though that experience didn’t scare us away (Hannah did behave better than her cousins, I think). I think that sister-in-law, her mother, and maybe someone else might take turns watching kids when necessary.
I actually don’t mind hearing kids during service, especially babies. But the older kids running around does seem distracting, especially to their parents. And what about children with autism or other difficulties? I don’t know if they can be trained so easily (not that the prospect of training a healthy almost-two-year-old seems undaunting).
I know I’ve rambled a bit but I’m just hashing this out in my own head–my church (which we feel God has planted us in) does not have a lot of people whose theology I trust on family matters, so I really appreciate hanging out on the internet where I can select my reading such that trusting God with my family size feels normal, and I’m almost surprised at comments from people in church who are “done.”
God bless you and I would appreciate feedback… just my thoughts, not meant as any sort of attack on the idea of family-integrated worship (which I certainly support as an option even if I don’t end up practicing it).
Neat quote, Mrs. Kelly. 😉
I go to Dr. Baucham’s church (obviously =D ) and we do have a nursing room for mothers with speakers where they can hear the sermon. At the beginning of our service, the fact that we worship together and why is always explained, and I’ve found that -after several years of attending a church where families worship together -little coos and calls are such a normal facet of our worship that it seems quiet when we’re in a place where the children go to the nursery.
With 6 children, 4 who are 5 and under, Dad is definitely speaking from experience here.
Just my very biased two-cents. 🙂
We are so very blessed that our church provides a nursery for any parent that desires to use it. Children are always welcome in worship, adult sunday classes, and so on. But they are also welcome to study and learn with children their own age if a parent wants them to. If it weren’t for that setup, we would never get to go to church, ever. Sure, one of us could each week, but one of us would never get to attend due to having to stay home with our sons. They both have special needs that preclude them from being able to participate in a quiet setting at this time. They are in multiple therapies and we are helping them learn how to sit quietly, but it’s not going to happen for a very long time. I am glad our church realizes there is a real need for some people to have some childcare so they can be spiritually fed, strengthened, lifted up, and taught. Without it, life would be so much harder.
Thanks Lori, Kim, and Emsue for clarification. I’m glad that Baucham seems to be reasonable about this; I was bothered, though, when someone mentioned how we should be able to worship without babies screaming and someone else was concerned this was an “anti-child” attitude.
Children should indeed be taught to behave in a sanctuary; I just think the quite young should be freely handed to care if need be. I had Sunday school from kindergarten to fifth grade and adored it. Rather than just fun and empty games, we had true Bible lessons; I still have some old booklets about Jezebel and her god Baal. Conveniently, though, these Sunday school lessons took place before the church sermons, so my mother often took us to the sanctuary afterwards.
Ok, this would be better for the birth control/anti-child thread, but I’m putting it here anyway:
I’m really starting to see the bossy attitude of non-Christians myself regarding kids. Someone just gave a link on another board to an online discussion about a poor kid in the UK who, as a preteen, looks like she’s approaching middle age because of a disorder. Turns out her mom has six other kids. Many commenting on this site were sympathetic towards the kid, but one person marched up on the comment board and sanctimoniously announced, “First of all, having seven kids is irresponsible.” I didn’t even wait around to see what the “second of all” was, I was already spitting mad. Says who? Who croaked and made you the womb police, little liberal? Urrghhh!!!
Jennifer,
LOL! Yes, there is a rampant anti-child attitude that I personally think evolved from the slippery slope of *if* then *should* regarding birth control. That’s been my big hang up all along. If it’s true that the acceptance of birth control cheerfully abides the acceptance of non-birth control, why the constant upheaval and degradation of large families? Interesting….don’t ya think?
Yes, quite so. These people are just as demanding and judgemental as the most militant anti-birth control Christians they no doubt dislike.
ycw,
It’s good to think out loud, and I’m glad you don’t take another’s stance on a topic as your own without a personal arrival. Very good!
I would encourage you and your husband to ask yourselves questions, study the issue, and then see where you are after that. You may not come to any further conclusions. I post on topics like these because they are, as far as I can see, issues that have precipitating effects, and I do think they’re important. I also think many people haven’t really thought through the *whys* or *what ifs*.
Here is one article, out of many, for your consideration that expounds a little on the topic.
The Unforeseen Consequences of Age-Segrated Youth
The accurate assumption is that age-segregation doesn’t stop at the nursery. I only skimmed it, but I’m assuming that it is a sound article as I trust the source. Which, by the way, is: The National Center for Family-Integrated Churches
Gleaning alot from all the comments. I stand right in the middle of this. I grew up in a Family intergrated church and hated it. As a pre-teen and through my teen and begining adulthood I strayed away because I still felt I was a child sitting there with the pastors words going right over my head.
As I married and had children, I have loved the nursery and Sunday school classes because my children HAVE learned much about the Lord and I was able to actually listen to the words of the pastor and ponder them in my heart. Of course I am also a ss teacher and I do go over what my kids learned at home. I am sure many parents do not.
Although… I see the reason for the family Intergrated church. Right now my kids stay for the worship songs and then head off to class. Behavior wise, my kids would never make it through a service. So this is where a intergrated church could help out with giving me that push to teach my children to sit still! I am so confused as to what is better. Both seem okay to me as long as families are coming to church and leaving with ways to study and learn more at home together!
I’m going to try to make this a short post :)My oldest six (now ages 18 down to 9) were never in a nursery, and we trained them all to sit through 2 1/2 hour services from birth. They also sat through (or slept through) a Sunday afternoon meeting for an hour and a half, a weekly prayer meeting and a weekly Bible study. My last two (now 7 and 3)only occassionaly were in a nursery after we changed church direction, but were mostly with us.
So I guess I’m a long-time family integrated mamma and I want to speak my piece 🙂
I understand the sentiment against any kind of nursery (I used to think that way), yet I can see how a limited nursery can be a help. It doesn’t have to end up being a crutch, or a dumping place.
Wow, I have so much to say on this subject, and I am so glad that people are interested in having their children with them. I can attest that you will never regret it!
I truly believe that this had a very powerful impact on all of my children. They are really fabulous (if I do say so myself)! Oh, I could tell you stories of spiritual truths that they learned because they were there.
Ok, now it’s turning into a long post. Probably lost most of you by now.
We are now starting the process of planting a new family integrated church. Please pray for our direction! Thanks.
We attend a church where you cannot bring your child into the sanctuary if they are 5 or under as the pastor has ADD and children are a distraction to him. If you try a greeter will give you two options: to either sit in the foyer to watch the service on a television or they will walk you to the nursery. It is also encouraged that any child above that age go to the children’s classes for teaching in a “fun and relevant” way. I don’t like it, it really bothers me that I’m forced to put my child in care, but my husband likes this church, so this is where we attend. This church also believes that church is for the nonbeliever, and we should be going to small groups to be fed, which can start a whole other post. My husband and I are on different pages, so all I can do right now is pray. I do not believe this is a healthy environment for my children or us, but my husband does not see it that way.
I have never left my babies in the nursery, though our congregation has a nursery and a childrens church. I have been very fortunate in that the people around us have always enjoyed our children and made a point of telling us it is okay when they fuss–their sounds are welcome.
My 14 month old is attached at the hip and she goes to Sunday and Wednesday class with me. She folds her hands when we pray and jabbers to the adults when class is over.
Reading some of the other comments has made me more appreciative of our church family.
Jen – “the pastor has ADD and children are a distraction to him”
Wow. Just wow. He should probably look into a different line of work (though he’s probably not trained in any other field, so not worth much there).
I can just imagine
Jesus – “Suffer the little children to- Hey! You in the back! Shut up! Oh, uh, what was I saying? Crap!”
But on a serious note, I encourage to continue to submit to you husband and keep praying for the two men in question, and your children.
Oh, and that last bit was meant as moral support, not advice, in case I wasn’t clear.
(btw, did your greeters come out of a history of organizied crime? Stinkin mafioso enforcers!)
While I can appreciate and understand the reasoning behind this, I am a huge supporter of a nursery for young children. Our church has no problem with children of any age in the service, but offers the nursery as a ministry to parents who would like to use it.
Oh Lori,thank you, thank you! I had a good laugh. This is really tough and brings me to tears a lot of the time. Thank you for your encouragement. I like your website by the way.
Jen, you’re welcome, and thank you. Truly, my heart goes out to you. It’s terrible that the place that should be like a family is a place of grief.
I don’t think making fun of someone with ADD will help matters. If small children are disruptive, they should be elsewhere until they can behave.
I never heard of a family integrated church until I started reading on this blog over a year ago. I like the idea of it, and yet I look at my church, which is not family integrated, and see so much growth and true discipleship of our children that I have a hard time seeing nursery or programs for children as bad.
We do not force children into the nursery, in fact on any given Sunday during worship there are probally 10 infants in our service. But we do have a nursery where nursing mothers can go, or a place to put a more active baby that is eager to explore and move around. We have paid staff that work in the nursery, they attend the opposite service than the one they work. (Two morning services 9 and 10:30). I admit the babies are not learning much. But they are cared for by women who love children.
By the time children are two they participate in child programs where they learn things like the Lord’s Prayer, work on bible verse memorization, etc. When they hit age five they begin to transition into the service. They are there for everything except the sermon. During that time they go do their own bible study.
Anyone that doubts the children are learning anything need to attend on a day when the children of our church conduct the service. They do the bible reading, worship songs, even the sermon (often reciting verses they have memorized).
I’m not saying that this system is perfect, but I don’t think all churches that offer these programs can be called anti-child. In fact our pastor says it is because we value children and love them that we ASSIST parents in their training of their children. Church should be an extension of what the children learn at home, same for the parents, it should be an extension to the reading and praying and growing that is happening the rest of the week.
Having other believers come alongside parents and help in the encouragement and training of the children I do believe to be biblical. Church is not a building or just a service, it is the body of Christ. The body of Christ includes the children that are sitting with mom and dad and the ones that are learning bible verses from another believer.
It’s almost midnight and I don’t feel like I am making much sense. I hope I haven’t offended anyone. I know I am in the minority here, and it doesn’t sound like anyone else has seen programs like this for their children. But I feel our child programs offer so much more than free childcare. I truly believe my children are being discipled by the body of Christ.
This one got not-so-rave reviews for me on Facebook!! Still agree though! 😉
Rachel,
I understand what you’re saying. And I don’t think making a general observation necessarily negates any and every form of children’s ministry–another blog post. I have no doubts there are wonderful programs, with wonderful people and wonderful outcomes. The question still remains, I guess, whether it’s the best thing for children, parents and churches. Is there a slippery slope here too? After reading an article which I’m referencing below that I highly recommend, I’m thinking this issue can’t be properly discussed until the meaning of Sunday worship is unpacked.
I have some excerpts from an excellent article by John Piper on this subject that I planned to post in a day or two.
Here is the article in its entirety that you may enjoy browsing over. Sometimes a thing is not evaluated by whether it is good, but by whether it is right, or at the least, the best.
The Family Together in God’s Presence
Jennifer – you’re missing my point. It’s not about ADD. I understand that’s a personal difficulty that is not a failing. It is a serious character flaw though when you make others suffer needlessly (or maybe at all) for your personal issue, creating an exclusionary church. Did you not catch the part where Jen’s children aren’t even given a chance to participate?
A person with narcolepsy should not operate heavy machinery as a daily occupation (you could hurt someone or personal property)
A person w/ persistant hacking cough should not work in a hospital (even if the cough is not contagious, no one around him knows that so he’d be causing them worry, PLUS he could be spreading illnesses from room to room that he is a carrier for but asymptomatic)
He’s in the wrong line of work. What happens if someone calls for advice while he’s preparing a sermon – “No calls! What I’m doing is important pastoral work!” Meanwhile sweet old Mrs. S. will have to wait for the doctors on her own as they process the test.
I chatted with a man in seminary once. He said he was there because his undergrad degree was in Bible from a Christian college and he wanted to do something that would make real money. I’m tired of men going into the pastorate who are doing it pragmatically for the paycheck and not in humility for God’s kingdom service. (My husband and I have met a lot of seminarians. The guy in seminary because he thinks he has a head for Bible scholarship and pastoring is the way to make a living w/ that is not a bit uncommon. Pastoring is so much more that Bible knowledge.)
In case I wasn’t clear, I maintain my earlier stance.
Clarification- I’ve chatted w/ men in seminary lots of times- but one time in particular I chatted w/ a notably irresponsible man in seminary.
First of all, I think it’s ridiculous to REQUIRE parents to put their children in the nursery or in the children’s ministry. Parents, no matter what the situation, are responsible for and able to make decisions about their own children.
However, I am not categorically opposed to the idea of a nursery or of a children’s ministry. I do not myself have children. I think the idea of a church without a nursery overly idealizes the reality of the American family. The reality is that there are women who come to church without their husbands, and even children who come without their parents (some walk, and some are bussed in). I have worked with our children’s ministry once or twice a month for about a year now, and while it is “fun” in the sense that the kids enjoy it, it is anything but play time.
The way it works in our church is that parents who desire to place their babies (up to 18 months or 2 years, I can’t remember) in the nursery are free to do so at the beginning of the service or at any time throughout. We have many single mothers in our congregation, as well as many women who must come without their husbands for whatever reason, and placing their babies in the nursery gives them the opportunity to fully participate in the worship service (of course, they are free to keep them with them as well). This may include, at any given point, dancing before the Lord, worshiping with hands raised, and praying/being prayed for at the altar, with the laying on of hands. The babies in the nursery are cared for and sung to, and the sermon plays on screens in the nursery so that they will still be able to listen to the pastor expound on the Word of God, even at such an early age.
The children’s ministry is geared toward older children. It is split between two groups, toddler to five, and five to eleven. All groups participate in the praise and worship portion of the adult service. Many times, due to Christ’s admonition to “let the little children come,” the children stand at the altar in the very front and set an example for us of how to worship God with the heart of a little child. They are not loud or misbehaved, and we delight in their love of God.
When the praise and worship singing is over and the pastor begins his sermon, the children usually leave the main sanctuary and head over to the children’s/youth sanctuary, where they are presented with an age-appropriate Gospel lesson. This is not a watered-down lesson, a storytelling session or worse, a coloring session. Our church recognizes that people bring their children to church so that they have the opportunity to hear the Word of God. We also have a bus ministry specifically for children, and bring in about 10-15 kids on any given Sunday. The lessons in children’s church since I have been working there have been centered around such topics as grace, the Holy Spirit, Taming your Tongue (from James), and the fruits of the Spirit (a ten-week series with each fruit of the Spirit having its own week and then a week of wrap-up). Certainly, I’d think the children on the bus are more likely to come if there is something geared toward them than if they’d be expected to sit in adult service all by themselves the entire time, although I have no evidence to support this.
Parents are ALWAYS welcome to keep their kids in service with them instead of letting them go to children’s church or the nursery. The parents who choose to keep them in adult service never seem to have any trouble. For their part, the children who attend children’s church generally sit still and are very well-behaved as the children’s pastor preaches the Word to them on their level. I know him very well personally, as he is a dear friend to my husband and me, and he is so dedicated to his ministry. He spends hours throughout the week praying over the altar in his children’s room, carefully planning how to share the Gospel with the children in an accessible way, and studying the Word in general. Both he and the senior pastor are amazing men of God who know how to preach the Gospel clearly and beautifully. For our part, our children are definitely hearing the Good News in a very serious way, but in a way that they can understand, and I don’t see a thing wrong with that if that’s what they and their parents want.
I was QUITE put off by the negative tone of the Baucham quote. It’s one thing to state the benefits of your own approach, but quite another to guilt-trip people who have legitimate reasons to do it differently. Sweetness, please! A church nursery can be such a blessing to so many, for whatever reason. Those who want it can use it. In our church, we have nursery for ages 6 months and up after the worship and announcements. There is also a nursing room with a one-way window where moms can sit with babies, as well as a toddler training room with a one-way mirror for those who want to train their kids to sit still during the service without disrupting others. Those who want these amenities use them, those that don’t, don’t. As a mom with several young ones, I so appreciate being able to focus on the sermon and not on wiggling children. I’ve also served as a nursery worker and been delighted to do it. It’s not a nightmare or a cruth, it’s a ministry. Parents are happy, kids are happy, workers are happy! Sounds like a win-win to me!
btw Jennifer – it should go w/out saying (but clearly dosen’t) that there is a wide, cavernous range of what different people might call “disruptive.”
Maybe we should have “adult church” for those disruptive adults – you know, those people who
Wear too much perfume
cross and recross their legs every 3 minutes
Write notes on the sermon w/ scritchy sounding pens
Use oxygen machines OR
Cought due to emphezima (sp?) thanks to years of smoking (but he quit)
Slip off the backs of dress shoes to bounce the heal up and down lightly
Snort post-nasal drip (darn cedar!). Ever.
Blow noses. Ever.
Sing off key.
Say “A-men” instead of “Ah-men” or vice versa
Whoops, there went the whole church (except Mr. C who dozed of and is breathing very softly)
Remember, when Jesus chastized Martha, it was not because she wasn’t sitting at Jesus’ feet as opposed to working w/ “much serving” (Luke 10:40). Jesus was all about serving. It was because she allowed a good thing to be cumbersome and distract her from His teaching. She even wanted Mary to be forced to leave Jesus’ teaching to help her in her so-called good work (I believe it ceased to be good work when it turned exclusive to the point of coveteousness and would-be-excommunication). Kind of like people who are so into the “good word/good news” that they kick out half from their company. Let me repeat. Martha was chastized for allowing herself to be distracted by good work from good teaching. She was NOT chastized for working. Mary was not chastized for causing distractions.
I think people should be courteous. But things happen. And singling out the children and forcing them out out for minor infractions- or worse, the possibility of infractions – is unbiblical. And I would add, shameful.
Virginia,
I actually appreciate Dr. Baucham’s tone, in that I don’t think he was trying to give anyone a guilt trip, rather he was reacting to the *general* evolution of the attitude toward children in church: “Get ’em out”, and he is rightly angered and annoyed by it.
Please know that this quote or topic thread isn’t meant to say “do it this way or you’re wrong”. It’s meant to bring up some valid considerations that have had affects in the way we view worship and children as a body. I’m just asking you to think about it thoroughly for a minute, apart from the way we’re used to doing things.
Be sure to read his comment carefully (and remember it was taken out of a bigger context).
He starts from the presupposition that the corporate worship of a Holy God should include the entire body of Christ, and children are a vital part of that body, not unneeded appendages. I think some of our resistance is because we have lost the concept of Sabbath worship and have adopted a more “me-focused” mentality (we don’t say this, but you can hear in the comments how many feel it is necessary for parents to have a break, or be free from distraction when in truth, worship is not about us at all.)
Taking your children out is not inherently bad–no one has suggested that. But, there are creeping similarities between our increasing refusal to accept children into our lives and our sanctuaries as well.
Kelly
I see this as a trend in US…Parents not taking the full responsiblity of being parents..They can leave their children in day-care’s at malls, grocery stores, gym’s and yes, even churches..I even think grandparents also can be a hinderance to their Adult Children..I have seen time after time Grandparents taking control of their grandchildren and the parents just sitting there watching it all..Grandparents should encourage their Adult children,not take control of their grandchildren…I was at a bakery with my daughter and saw a grandmother taking care of the grandchild ,one was crying, and the mother just sat there while her Mother took care of her children…The Grandmother should of been sitting there admiring her Daughter being a mother…It’s all just teaching the next generation that they can’t be parents without help, it’s too hard…Now this is just my opinion and my observations..
I am really enjoying your blog and the articles you post….Blessings, Heidi
LOVED your link to the Age-Segregated article. It’s such a pervasive way of thinking! My in-laws who are in their 50’s and are pretty youthful empty-nesters, told us about their choice to attend a “church” that meets in a coffee-shop… They said they didn’t feel comfortable attending churches where there are lots of families and lots of children because they “don’t fit in.” FIT IN? Age-segregated thinking has so dominated their thinking that they cannot see how unbiblical they are being! We’ve been studying Titus 2 at our church and learning how the older women are to mentor and teach the younger, and here’s my in-laws placing themselves in a situation where they CANNOT obey Biblical commands because there ARE no younger people (30’s or below) in their “church”. Is it all about being comfortable and mingling only with those of your demographic group?
I’m apologize, but I’m a little miffed at it all (and of course, would never let a word of it drop in their hearing) but it really makes me question how many other ideas I’ve accepted as they have and never questioned in the light of clear Biblical principles.
(Again – only been attending my Family-Integrated Church for 2 years now, so I’m fairly new to all this myself – but everything they do makes SO much sense and we would never go back!)
People can always exaggerate Lori, but most would find a screeching child very disruptive; this really has nothing to do with the idea that anyone could be overly picky and demand certain “adult churches”.
“He’s in the wrong line of work”
You already said he’s probably not trained in any other field and therefore “not worth much there”, which I also found unkind.
Kelly, thanks for your response. I read the quote over and over and over before I even posted my comment. I still think the tone is offensive and mocking. I can understand the frustration with churches who will not allow babies in the service at all — that’s absolutely crazy! But to characterize nurseries as a “crutch” and hint that parents are being irresponsible to use them is a bit over the top. This grieves me.
I wrote a blog post last year that might explain my thoughts better.
http://virginiaknowles.blogspot.com/2009/08/do-it-well-but-keep-it-humble.html
Joy and peace to you and yours,
Virginia Knowles
Mom of 10 and grandma of one who will make his debut this summer
Well-said, Virginia and Lori 2.
Jennifer – ” but most would find a screeching child very disruptive”
The point in that quote (which was not even mine, btw) was that distractions happen, and the important thing is that the parent train for that, first at home, and at church while leaving as quickly as possibly to do the training in the foyer or cry room or something. Just like someone w/ emphazema should exucse him/herself if a hacking fit comes on and not be mandated out of the sancutary to begin with. Really, are you just willfully trying to bypass the main point of parental training negligence (the post) or the point if church ill-mandate (Jen, me and other)?
“You already said he’s probably not trained in any other field and therefore “not worth much there”, which I also found unkind.”
I stand by that. This is a serious problem for the church at large – men ill suited for the cloth trained for nothing but the cloth. Even Paul and Peter had training elsewhere. Oh yeah, and Jesus. It is one thing for a man to be ill-suited for his profession. But to do so at the expense of God’s church and families is unpardonable.
Actually, Jennifer, I’m Lori 2, so…. thank you?
Well, you’re standing by an unkind presumption. And really, I’m not just trying to bypass anything, I simply found your making fun unnecessary; has nothing to do with this post.
Btw “Lori 2” has a different design by her name, doesn’t link to your blog, and began her post with “First of all, I think it’s ridiculous to REQUIRE parents to put their children in the nursery or in the children’s ministry.”
It had to do very specifically w/ Jen whom I addressed specifically yesterday (at 9:52 PM).
I didn’t think that you were actually addressing me. I was nicely pointing out your mistake, which was interesting since as you mentioned, we Loris have different fractals. All three of us.
“I was nicely pointing out your mistake”
Doesn’t really matter to me what number you literally are; to me, the Lori I addressed was the second Lori I’ve seen on this board.
Jennifer – “the Lori I addressed was the second Lori I’ve seen on this board.”
Which brings up something else, which I’d prefer to address privately, if you’d care to e-mail me via my blog e-mail.
Alrighty. Can’t right now though. TTYL
I read the quote and only some of the comments, so I may be simply re-iterating someone else’s point.
Our church fellowship is basically an overgrown “house-church” and we have no nursery facilities at all. The building where we meet has a small kitchen in which moms can take restless or hungry little ones.
For the most part, it is expected that training of children be something that happens at home, but the group in general has agreed that children will sometimes behave badly regardless of how well they have been trained. We follow an order of worship but it is not a rigid program. Neither do we strive to put on a weekly show that cannot be interrupted if necessary.
I’m not saying this to brag up what “we” do as being superior to what other groups are about. But, as we have tried to determine whether “children’s church” or an official nursery is necessary, we have, as a group, had to recognize that the church is not a business organization with smoothly oiled cogs that can get gummed up by people who desperately need to hear about Jesus and find loving support in areas they are weak.
Neither is the weekly meeting supposed to be an academically-slanted lecture or private club meeting which is only open to those who meet certain acceptable standards. It’s family coming together, learning together, sharing burdens and worshiping our risen Savior together.
Jesus Himself gave stern warning to those who would prevent children from coming to Him. He made Himself accessible and His love and arms are wide open to those who are being drawn to HIM (as opposed to an impressively detailed performance ABOUT Him). If the weekly Sunday service is arranged in such a manner so as to appeal to only the academically minded or the impeccably-behaved (thus excluding most little ones and possibly many hurting visitors), perhaps we ought to be rethinking what we are doing on Sunday and whether it actually is something that causes Jesus to smile.
Heather,
Beautifully stated.
Heather, thanks for the lovely description of a lovely church.
I would like to say (again), there is nothing wrong w/ nursery. Baucham didn’t say it, Kelly didn’t say it, I didn’t say it, don’t recall if anyone has.
Also, crutches are not bad. They are very useful and necessary.
However, if a healthy person with normal muscles uses crutches as a primary way to get around, those normal muscles do not develop properly or at a healthy pace.
Treating routine (routine as in not just for the injured) crutch use as normal and healthy flies in the face of science and medicine.
Treating routine nursery use (for children at least) as normal and healthy is not biblical. It’s just not. There is no underlying hinting or allusion. (seriously, Rev. Baucham is nothing if not forthright.)Bad? No. Biblical? No. And it can prevent proper development of people and families.
The Lord hit me with another thought about this–2 actually, one of which Christie hit on:
1. This, like many others, is not as much as a “right or wrong” issue than a “wise or foolish” one…we would do well to note the difference. Some things are OK to do, but may cause us to miss precipitating blessings of a wiser choice.
Which introduces the next thought that Christie mentioned:
2. The older members of the church are commanded to “teach the younger ones”. Now more than ever, since household hospitality is sparsely practiced, church is often the ONLY opportunity for this teaching. If the solution to child-training is not child training at all, but a “quiet place” away from parents, the entire subject of child-training is lost between the older and younger. This is a colossal loss!
The older parents don’t even see the need, and the younger parents don’t feel the need to inquire because the church has already “solved the problem”. To me, this might be the biggest factor in the whole discussion, second only to not forbidding the little ones to worship.
I’m thinking at our church how often a younger mother will ask an older one about child-training issues because, well, that’s her only option. But doesn’t it seem right and fitting that the nursery-less structure so beautifully enforces the Titus 1 & 2 commands?
Just wanted to let you know I emailed you, Lori.
Thanks!
Welcome 🙂
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to cause any trouble by being “yet another Lori.” But it definitely is my real name. Oops. 🙂
Lori…3, was it?
Who knew there were so many Loris around? It certainly wasn’t a common name where I grew up. 🙂
Lori, you didn’t cause trouble at all 🙂 Thanks to the fractals, it’s easy to tell the difference.
Kelly,
I have been thinking and praying a lot about this topic and as I was reading through the scriptures asking the Lord for wisdom and direction in this area, I came to Romans 14. The entire chapter speaks to the things which are not essential doctrine but that might prick at a believer’s conscience. The whole chapter is worthy of studying, but a couple of verses particularly stand out to me. Verse 3 says “The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.” And verse 5 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” And verse 17-18 “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.” And lastly verse 22-23 says “So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
The Bible also says in Matthew 7:16-18
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
As believers we need to look at our own church and ask ourselves, “Are we bearing good fruit? (as individual believers and as a whole body)” “Are our children being fed the Word of God?” “Are they growing in their walk with the Lord?” “Are the young people following after the Lord or chasing the things of the world?” If a person can answer “yes” to these questions, then I believe they are in a healthy church (assuming they are teaching sound doctrine).
I really appreciate your blog Kelly and the ideas that you bring to the table. Although I may not always agree with your position, you challenge the believer to take a look at why he/she is doing things and that can only strengthen the body of Christ.
Just for the record, we have done a mix of both (keeping our kids in service and allowing them to go to children’s classes). We homeschool and take the training of our children very seriously.
I have to say I vehemently disagree. Those of us who let our children go to their own classes or nursery are NOT raising heathens or hiding them away and it’s offensive to say so.
Children are just that and while I agree with teaching my kids how to sit in church – I’ll do so when it’s age-appropriate. There is nothing worse than unrealistic expectations put on a child.
JMHO
Christi,
Keep in mind that the quote and the discussion does refer to a general observance, without regard to individual reasons for leaving children. The offense to you personally may be lessened when you understand it from that angle.
However, part of your comment itself reveals the misconception we have of children and perhaps is one of the errors behind the removal of children from the worship of God.
You said:
“There is nothing worse than unrealistic expectations put on a child.”
Your statement itself may be true, but the context you say it in is not. Thousands of normal children sit happily beside their parents every Sunday and enjoy the Lord’s day. The “unrealistic expectations” come when we haven’t expected common obedience at home…the entire issue requires a dissecting of several elements before we can accurately enter the discussion.
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So many people are pro-huge families, yet you go to churches where children are not allowed??
Raised Catholic, we went to Church weekly and on Holy Days, as soon after we were Baptised (usually a month after birth). I have 3 siblings, and we are all within 4 years of each other (2 are twins). Prior (and in addition) to going to Catholic school K-12, I remember vividly being a small child and being in church. I remember my younger brother climbing over a pew one time. Obviously, if a child is disruptive, you remove him/her to deal with it. How are the kids expected to learn if they are not exposed to it from the start??
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Hi – I just came across this blog while googling the topic after being shocked at seeing the age-separated groups at a friend’s church that I visited.
At Catholic services everybody always worships together as a family–sometimes there are glassed-in cry rooms for noisy kids, but the goal is to expose people to the services from birth. Most have no nurseries, preschools, or childrens services at all–Sunday School is AFTER or BEFORE the service, not during it. Parents can attend an adult bible study or sit in with their children.
I think it’s a great idea to integrate the family at worship. People put up with a little noise and distraction, and parents take their kids out for a few minutes when needed. I’d urge all of you to find a place that keeps the family together and try it out. Your kids might take a little while to get used to it, but at the end you’ll be glad you did. Worshipping together as a family and as a community is just too important.