Subtle Effects of the Birth Control Culture

I found this to be very helpful. I’ve read Jess often, and really apreciate her opinions, candor, and talent. There are well over 100 comments just on this post, so she’s encouraged a lot of people. I personally would like to repost one here (if that’s legal):

From Brandy:

I appreciated what Hannah said above. Here is a link to a woman who used to be part of the “quiverfull” movement. She says some insightful things. http://blog.birthblessed.com/2008/01/on-friday-january-6-you-wrote.html Here is a great article by Douglas Wilson that is helpful in “deciding” how many kids to have. He says “I would encourage you to have all the children you can. But that can is much more than biological.” http://www.credenda.org/issues/18-4husbandry.php

– Amy of the first blog mentioned is very candid and gentle, and makes very good points. And she has 7 children, so it’s not like she dosen’t have some experience with the QF idea. If you (ladies in general) wish to respond to me, please keep in mind that I hope for a massive family. I am proud of the ladies who rear lots of godly children, and am incouraged by them, and hope to encourage them myself. I just think Amy, Brandy, and Doug Wilson have some good things to say, too. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Kelly, for this link to Jess’s posting. I enjoyed it.

I loved her post, & even though I deep down feel it's right to not try to take control of things we have no control over, I have questions.

What about when one has several special needs children; it runs in the family now. The parents are alone with no support… it is very tough for those not in that situation to understand or appreciate the difficulty, even though the children are so cherished.

Then with end times upon us, & we really are prime for this now, it seems from my research we will not be raptured. What happens to my children when we're either struggling becz we can't buy or sell or I'm martyred…

Heavy stuff, for heavy times. We must be real; He warned us for a reason. So why not talk about that too…

Anon – re: “end times upon us” – This is meant as NO correction, only a cause for hope and relief.

GAry DeMar writes here, as a comment in this article:

http://www.americanvision.org/blog/?p=265

Anyone wanting to know my thoughts on Matthew 24, the most basic book is my “Is Jesus Coming Soon?” It is a verse-by-verse exposition of Matthew 24.

There is also John Bray’s “Matthew 24 Fulfilled” and my “Last Days Madness.” These are available at http://www.AmericanVision.org

1. Jesus said “this generation will not pass away until ALL These things take place.” The “all things” refer to the signs of verses 4-32.

2. Each and EVERY time “this generation” is used in the gospels, it always refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. There are no exceptions (see 23:36 which every commentator, even C.I. Scofield notes refers to that first-century generation). If Jesus had a future generation in view, He would have said “that generation.”

3. Matthew 24:33 tells us who would see the signs: “even so YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” The “you” refers to Jesus’ present audience. Follow the use of the second person plural from 24:2 through 24:34. If Jesus had a future generation in mind, He would have said “when THEY see.”

4. Jesus was quoting Daniel 7:13 and Ps. 110.1 in Matthew 24:30. It’s a reference to Jesus ascension not His coming down to earth to set up an earthly kingdom. This, too, also happened in the first century. He told Caiaphas, “From now on YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matt. 26:64).

I’ll be debating Barry Horner on this subject Saturday, November 22, 2008 in Sacramento.

I’ll have an extensive outline on every verse of Matthew 24:1-34, comparing Scripture with Scripture, available for download after the debate.

I don’t want any of my debating strategy to get out early.

Gary DeMar

Kelly, I realize this is a serious “can of worms”. I fully undestand I fyou choose to keep this off the comments. It is off topic to the original post.

Anon1 here again,

Bless your friends; they are doing His will obviously. Not all of our situations are ideal for these choices.

1% is a low estimate on this as well; I honestly don't know where that came from. There are an incredible amount of us out there. Because you are blessed with healthy children & do not run in these circles keeps you unaware of the magnitude of families out there.

Some are struggling with just 2 children with special needs. It varies from family to family & their situation. To say well I know someone who ADOPTED this many special needs children, undermines the real individual struggles of others, others, by the way, who are not having the body come forward for any help or support to help them in their parenting as well. The churches aren't "there" either; it just rarely happens. Your friends may be one of the rare few with support, or the gifts to manage well alone.

I believe the Lord is here for us; He willed it all, & I do believe He is in charge, all the time, no matter what we try to "plan".

There has been a lot of spiritual growth in my life, due to my having special children, but I struggle daily with knowing I can't do it all for them, yet they are left with me alone to help them. It's only through Him that I can do anything at all.

I rec'd Christ long after my marriage with 2 children already, & dh isn't there yet. He is not able to have the Lord guide his parenting; he does not have concerns for their greater spiritual good. He is an excellent provider. I am a "single parent" though, for the most part, & definitely am "single" spiritually.

I liked your point about the Israelites in Egypt. I often wonder about the verse reg. how difficult it will be for pregnant & nursing mothers in days to come though…

Reg. the response on endtimes, I do not agree with the argument that is thrown at people – the one about people having claimed it was the end several times in history.

Sure, that's true. But we've NEVER been lined up for it the way we are now. The bible talks about people around the world being able to watch things happening; that could not have happened without today's technology – TV, internet, etc. With Obama center stage & beloved by the world, it is certainly plausable he can be used to usher in the new world order.

It is painfully obvious things are getting very close. To say otherwise seems naive. God would not have spent so much time with warnings & prophesy if it weren't important that we should be watchful & aware, even though we can never know "the day", we can see what's happening & be alert.

Blessings.

Lori,

please read carefully… I did not say he was the antichrist. You need to understand the endtimes better. He may very well usher in the new world order, but that is not the antichrist. That happens later.

Thanks…

– He may very well usher in the new world order, but that is not the antichrist.
Beg your pardon

-You need to understand the endtimes better
What? That’s it? Umm. Sure. O.K.

“We are told that none of us should think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think (Rom. 12:3). Before you build the tower, you ought to do some contingency planning (Luke 14:28). Sit down and count the cost. What are your likely financial boundaries? What is your health like? How old will you be when the youngest graduates from high school? Will you short-change your oldest daughters in their education by pressing them into service taking care of their younger siblings? Given how hard you will have to work to feed them all, will you have any time and energy left over to love them? Remember that children don’t just need quality time; they need quantity time. What will the tuition payments to the Christian school be when all of them are enrolled? Are you equipped to homeschool so many children at so many different levels, or will things quickly deteriorate as they are left to instruct themselves or each other?
This is susceptible to misunderstandings, I know. But having answered all the questions above (and others like them) as honestly as you can, knowing what you can do, I would encourage you to have all the children you can.”

This is a quote from the Douglas Wilson article. He compares tower building to raising children; not sure that’s a good annalogy. :[

Like Kelly said, this kind of thing has you running around in a “what if” scenario.

*What are your likely financial boundaries? – How do I know? My second was in the NICU 12 days. Should we have 12 days worth of money saved up before we allow ourselves to fall pg again? One BIL actually suggested this. Then what happens if the next is in the NICU a whole month? What then? One of dh’s uncles was paralized at 38yo. Maybe we should prepare for that, too.

*What is your health like? – My best friend has Lyme’s. She was so sick when she married – having her son 41 weeks after her wedding was a huge leap of faith. Having children has made her stronger, unlike what they thought would happen!

*How old will you be when the youngest graduates from high school? – My dad is 63yo; he’ll be 65yo before my youngest brother graduates. What a mistake! (sarcasim) This young man is the shining light in my parent’s life right now – the older two sons would have left them with broken hearts and no hope.

*Will you short-change your oldest daughters in their education by pressing them into service taking care of their younger siblings? – Or is that known as learning how to multi-task and preparation for motherhood??

*Given how hard you will have to work to feed them all, will you have any time and energy left over to love them? – Oh, my! I’m tired with one 2yo…multiply that out and I’m a wreck. Of course. Am I capable of raising *one* child with lots of time and energy? Is it easier to cook for one baby or two? Frankly, I find it much easier to cook for four people than I did two! :S Am I really the best judge of my ablities? I would have said I couldn’t handle one child, I would have said I couldn’t handle an NICU stay – I would have said I was too weak to do many, many necessary things.

Remember that children don’t just need quality time; they need quantity time. What will the tuition payments to the Christian school be when all of them are enrolled? Are you equipped to homeschool so many children at so many different levels, or will things quickly deteriorate as they are left to instruct themselves or each other? – Moses didn’t think he was equiped to be a public speaker. I feel like an unlikely mother! God says that He uses the weak and poor to confound the wise of the world … for me to raise multiple children with any semblence of sucess should do just that!

According to this “helpful” article, I should be working on a teaching degree and working so that we can save up money. And I’d have one or two children wel into my 30’s.

Just my two cents.

Relying only on Him,
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004

p.s. As for the end times thing that has taken over the comments section,we barely remember Nero’s atrocities. We remember Hitler’s better. Who was worse? I mean, have we really seen devestation such as the “world has never known, nor will see?” [Matt 24:21] Have we lost a third of the sun, or of the stars? Just thoughts. I think it’s com’in – and weather we’re here for it or not is a different story. :]

Sorry to have taken over with the endtimes stuff here… I really don't have anyone to talk to about it & need the discussion. Maybe I should go join a board somewhere lol.

On another note, dh (not saved as I mentioned I was saved after our marriage), has of course, a different view of children, etc. Recently, after looking over all our little blessings, he said to me, in regard to having more, "If it weren't for the special needs, it wouldn't be so bad."

I try to take on the bulk of it all; the treatments, implementing them, etc. It really takes 2 though, to make special children succeed in life.

Kinda breaks my heart…

Annon – here is a link for you. Maybe you’ve read it, maybe you haven’t and it could encourage you today. I’m part of a MOMYS board and when I read this it was just so beautiful, and then I thought of you. :]

http://www.our-kids.org/Archives/Holland.html

I don’t mind the end-times stuff. 🙂 I’m certainly not qualified to debate it, though! My postscript is probably as far as I will take that one, though I sure don’t mind reading about it!

lori, the part that gets me is this: “But having answered all the questions above (and others like them) as honestly as you can, knowing what you can do , I would encourage you to have all the children you can.”

It’s hard for me to judge, myself, what I can do. That’s all. I was simply looking at the questions he posed, and my abilities, and drawing conclusions. You have to understand that the timing for each of our three was “crummy” to me. I ‘wasn’t ready’ for children with #1, but dh was. #2 was concieved 2 weeks after a miscarriage! The more I get to know ds #2, the more I realize how much ds #1 could consume me – he is the most challenging, stubborn little boy! He needs lots of love and consistancy.

According to DW’s article, I could be short-changing him by allowing so many younger siblings to compete with my attention along with him. Or is it teaching him even more to have siblings?

I’m just glad I don’t feel in charge of having to make that choice as to how benificial that is. :]

“I think Wilson is trying to say you don’t have to be totally anti-family planning to be a good, faithful christian (or even to have a quiver full), and that being anti family planning is no guarantee of good parenting, of good faith, or leaving a good legacy.”

All very, very true! All I want to point out is that you can honestly believe you are a good parent capable of providing, and not be. Our own perceptions and logic tend to be decieving. I believe He will give more grace, for example, to Anon1, who knows she struggles, than to a family who might have all the resources and be such good parents “everyone knows they should have more.”

I’m not glorifiying having many children; but Wilson’s article left out the importance of prayer and faith in “deciding” or not deciding how many to have. He makes it sound more of a logical, think-it-through and decide how many ‘you’ can have/handle. He did not mention the word PRAYER once! Ouch.

I simply do not feel qualified to make the judgement call that one more child will bankrupt me financially/physically/emotionally. Most people I know handle their “oopsie” child okay, although usually with some grumbling, lol.

And I’m sure you can’t “read” my tone, but I have fun with things like this. :]

Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004

Anon1 –
Please revisit my second posting. I can’t say anyting more clearly than that. But to that, I’d like to add that I believe
1) that when Jesus taught his disciples to pray “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven” he meant for them to pray expecting God to grant that.
2)when Jesus said that “the meek shall inherit the earth” he meant His followers (the decendents of the people he spoke to then and there) would someday rule the earth in peace and brotherhood.
3)that Christ began His millenial reign when he ascended into Heaven, and that millenial reign dosen’t literally mean 1000 years.
4) that the crushing of Christ’s foes is progressive, and not in one fell swoop (if I may use a cliche). (please see http://www.americanvision.org/blog/?p=198)

This is just a rough outline, and not meant to be comprehensive by a longshot. The real masterpiece is David Chilton’s Paradise Restored.

I really appreciate American Vision (www.americanvision.org) for their products. They have so much information, and much is free in their archives. If they sell a book published by Institute for Christian Economics, you may be able to download it for free here:
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/sidefrm2.htm

They also have open forums if you’re interesed. You do have to sign up, but it’s free.

(Yes, I’m shamelessly plugging AV, but all the free stuff. Gotta love free. And I’m a fan of DeMar.)

O.K. Here is an article that I thought was helpful about post-millenialism. The first couple paragraphs are somewhat harsh, but not too much so as to be unreadable.

http://www.preterist.org/whatispreterism.asp

Thank you for your openness to dialogue. I’m sorry I couldn’t offer you anything more succinct at this time.

Lori, that's way more than is appropriate to go through here, but please be careful…
http://lionofjudah.tribulationforces.com/articles/prophecy/puritannews_preterism.html

We must be ready. It's been said the christians who think nothing is going to happen, either through your views or through rapture views, are the ones who will fall away in those last years.

Be careful… believe the scriptures for what they say.

People want to be "optimistic"; they don't want to hear about bad things. They don't want people to frighten them. But God gave us His Word & it's full of warnings for good reasons. He wants for no one to perish.

Again, way too much to go into here, but look into it further, elsewhere than where you are presently reading, for yourself before settling on that view…

re: -“we barely remember Nero’s atrocities. We remember Hitler’s better. Who was worse?”

I have to admit, I don’t know Nero’s total casualties count. But your point stands.

Modern despots kill more efficiently than ancient despots because they have modern, efficient technology at their disposa. I believe that modern technology is a gift from God. It can be used for evil intentions. Take medicine for example. God has allowed us to heal injuries and cure diseases that were insurmountable a very short time ago. But sometimes humans use modern medicine to kill unborn babies, or unwanted post-natal people for that matter(euthanasia). We can split an atom and destroy villages, whole cities. But maybe someday we will split atoms for clean, abundant energy. We are not in that time when Christ has subjugated all foes. No one ever said it would be easy or quick.

Lori,

Time has proven that as we get further & further away from the Lord, e.g. increased promotion of homos*xuality, increased ease of abortion, electing a president that believes in infanticide, God taken out of the schools, etc etc etc, the worse things get, for everyone.

Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Lori,

When did this happen exactly? Were all these folks beheaded for not accepting the mark of the beast or worshipping the antichrist? When exactly did they live & reign with Christ for 1,000 yrs? Why is 1,000 yrs not 1,000 yrs? It's what's written… it's literal.

None of this has happened yet. Don't be anticipating things will get better, because there is much persecution in the future of the true believer. The concern for those who feel nothing bad is coming is they will fall away permanently when it starts to happen…

Matthew 24:10-14
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

There's tons of good reading out there… here's just one.

http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/money/terrible_times.html

HTH

Anon., I can see what you mean about Christians, in America at least, not being much of a restraining force, since nobody listens much to Bible Believing Christians any more. Perhaps God will judge and destroy America and we will be out of the picture long, long before any Rapture. I don’t know.

If God sovereignly uses the church to restrain evil, He will sovereignly take it out of the world when His plan for the church is completed. He is in control. But, He chooses to use the church, right now, to restrain evil. We think things are bad now, but when the church is gone, the floodgates will burst.

When the church is gone, He will turn again to the nation of Israel. That is another reason for the Rapture. Israel is very important in the end times. After the Rapture, when Anti-Christ reigns, his (Anti-Christ’s) wrath will be poured out on Israel, and Israel will recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah. Many will turn to Him. Many will pay for it with their lives, because of the wrath of Anti-Christ.

After this, God’s wrath will be poured out on the earth. Anybody who is a believer in Christ will have to flee (Matt.24)to the hills. The gentile church is long gone. God is dealing with Israel. Matt. 24 deals with the Jews in the end times. The “This Generation” that Jesus was talking about was the generation that will see all these things come to pass — the generation of Jews alive at the end times.

Matthew 24 shows that Jewish believers at the end of the world (the day of the Lord) will ALSO be taken to a place of safety (“one will be taken and one will be left”) as the universe begins to disintegrate and God pours out His final wrath.

There are other examples in the Bible about God’s people being taken out of a place or a situation, so that He could punish evil (Lot was taken out of Sodom with his family, and Noah and his family were put in the ark, so that God’s wrath could be poured out). God CHOSE to do it that way; He didn’t HAVE to. He chooses to use people and events in His own mysterious ways to accomplish His ends.

I studied John MacArthur’s commentary about this, and that is where my ideas are from.

By the way, John Calvin wrote a commentary on every book of the New Testament except for the Book of Revelation. Maybe he was not interested in it. I don’t know. Reformed people have always taken the a-millenial, no-Rapture approach to the end-times.

Yes, they will be put out of the synagogues — these are Jewish believers. Jesus was talking to Jews about future Jews.

And to tie all this in to modern birth control culture: All things to God’s glory. I hope to have lots of children (as many as God sees fit) to train up as spiritual soldiers of God, to expand his kingdom, hopefully with many little soldiers of their own, and grand-soldiers of their own. If that means one being an evangelist, great. If that means him being the best, most honest mechanic in town, I would love that too. Dominion over ALL of life, all of culture. A legacy of hope, of expantion. My children for God’s glory. Thank you Kelly, for sharing your space for this. Have a blessed, and restful Sunday.

forums:
perhaps this will be helpful, for those who are truly curious.
http://www.americanvision.org/forum/index.php

Lori, yes, we are suppossed to overcome evil with good. But, overcoming evil IS restraining evil. Overcoming it IS restraining it.

“The fact that Jesus spoke in the second person, especially in Chapter 24, does not prove He was speaking to the disciples about their own generation. The Old Testament prophets frequently addressed messages to people yet unborn, some of whom would live hundreds of years in the future. God picked up the prophet, as it were, and transported him to the time wf which he was to prophesy, and he spoke as if he were standing directly before those future generations: Isa. 33:17-24; 66:10-14; Zech.9:9. Jesus was saying, in effect, ‘You who are alive at that time…'” (John MacArthur’s commentary on Matthew 24-28, pages 16 and 17).

In the Olivet Discourse, beginning with verse 3 of Matthew 24, Jesus was talking of a time in the future.

The principle of “talking TO somebody THROUGH somebody else” is a Biblical means of speaking to somebody. God talked TO Satan THROUGH the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28.

As far as the Anti-Christ goes, Satan, through him, will try to imitate Jesus Christ. Satan will inhabit a human being (the Anti-Christ). It will be a fake incarnation, mimicking the real Incarnation. Many will be deceived.

Just like there were many “types” of Christ before He was born, so, I believe, there have been and will continue to be “types” of Anti-Christ (people like Hitler). One day, when the time is right and God allows it, the real thing will happen.