Should we be surprised when even those who claim Christianity call us “cult members” for obeying Scripture (piggy-backing on the last post)? They accused Jesus of being demon-possessed. That’s even worse.
And should we be surprised at a culture who continues to be deceived by the very same lie Satan approached Eve with in the garden?
Think about it…”Has God indeed said?” That was the deceiving question that stumbled all of humanity, and continues to today. “Does God’s Word really mean that?”
Eve thought it was a question worthy of consideration, and the offer Satan gave her was too delicious to resist. “You can become like God.” She fell for one thing…..POWER.
It’s the same thing that still draws us. “I can be strong on my own…doing my thing…interpreting truth to stroke my feelings.”
Read Ezekial, Jeremiah–the lamentations of God in the OT. “My people, whom I have loved, have turned away from me, have followed after the idols of their hearts, followed their own wisdom, and have forsaken my Word.”
We continue the same idolatry and call it “freedom”.
And Satan is there, in the ear all the time…”Has God indeed said?”
And Eve felt that power for a short, sweet moment…”the eyes of both of them were opened…”
And then the pain of the fall.
That death that ensued the moment Eve was deceived was not only a physical death for the human race. It was a constant death of the natural man and God knew it would be our sole struggle. We all struggle to die to flesh. It’s part of the curse–the way it is. We cannot just decide to stop dying and indulge our flesh. Not an option for the believer.
What is that thing we question, “Has God indeed said?” Am I trying to get out from under the life of a dying-to-live disciple? Am I squirming to be comfortable?
We are called to life, not comfort, specifically. We are called to living sacrifice. And that paradoxical sacrifice requires proverbial bloodshed, pain and death. The shedding of “me” so that He might be made visible. Glorified. Less of me is more of Him. Delight in that.
11 comments
This is just so “right on”. Hits the nail on the head.
This is such a hard lesson for me. No matter how much I want to be obedient and submit in every way I can, I still struggle with myself. My pride, especially. I guess that would be the dying to self? I can be such a prideful woman sometimes. Almost judgmental in some ways. I’m so glad God hasn’t given up on me, there are times I want to give up. But He continues to work on me and my heart. New mercies every day. Thank you for sharing your heart, Kelly. This “greenhorn” appreciates the lessons.
I know whaqt you are saying, Kelly, but *I* feel the same way. I am called disobedient (if I am not doing this or that, or NOT dign this or that), a cult member, poisoned by other ‘wisdoms’,etc. It goes both ways. The very things you feel ‘judged on’, others of us, whom some may see as on the ‘other side’ (whatever that is), we too feel judged on.
I hear you sometimes say people look for control, or things to tickle their ears; stroke their feelings. While I agree every human does this at times, just becasue someone doesnt follow the doctrine you follow to the T, doesnt necessarily mean we like control, or ear tickling. I for one was much happier when I didnt have to think or decide for myself….I wanted someone else to control (husband, church leaders, a doctrine) and I didnt really want to obey crawling out form under that control. *I* had to take responsibility for myself when I did that, and couldnt bandwagon any longer off someone else’s theology-I had to instead adopt a theology of my own, which is continually evolving as I am made aware of new things, and more is revealed to me in this life. I beleive Gods perfect theology has bigger bounds than you do, and thus I feel there is room for me in it…..but I am just putting out there that not anyone who isnt ‘won over’ by certain doctrines doesnt mean its because they lavish over control, and ear-tickling. I didnt really fidn that to fit into my experience at all, with some exception.
With respect to Biblical Patriachy, the definition that was linked in the previous post via the Vision Forum Min. website certainly has some “prone-to-interpretaion” points. While the basics of patriachy (men are leaders, women are help mates, children are to honor both) are clearly biblical, “hyper-patriarchy” (or in many cases Matriachy) is not biblically sound. For a balanced and biblically-sited look at this see:
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2008/october/14/patriarchal-dysfunctional-families-part-2/
Ditto to mrshester…Sometimes I feel like I have it all down and then…God reveals the next layer he wants to work on in my fleshly soul. He brings me to my knees and shows me how utterly dependant I am on Him to change me. He brings flaws in me to the surface and asks me to let Him work on them with me. I so admire you ladies you have had a solid christian upbringing. I didn’t and sometimes it seems like I’m so far behind…like I will never get it all! Things some of you take for granted as being common biblical knowledge are new concepts to me even in my
30’s. Thanks to all of you for your pearls of wisdom. As “iron sharpens iron” right? I’m so grateful to the Lord for bringing me to this blog and the others He has led me to where I can learn from seasoned christian women.
Amy, just curious, what do you feel are the points that are “prone-to-interpretaion” ?
I read the entire article last night and wonder what points are up for interpretation.
Thanks,
Michelle
Hi Michelle,
First of all the points of Biblical Patriarchy that I am suggesting are “prone to interpretation” are from the article from Vision Forum, not from Gen C original post. Just want to make sure that is clear.
I have a great respect for VFM and have been blessed by many of their resources in the past several years, so my comments are not directed against them. However, just because we respect ones personal family choices does not mean that we agree with them – or even believe them to be doctrinally unchallenged. That being said…
The points that I believe are subject to additional or different interpretation are:
1. The Quiver Full concept
2. Home Education
3. Adult children at home
Now, I realize that this blog promotes all of these ideas and so I do not want to challenge the right of the writer or readers to choose to follow the VFM concept of these teachings. However, I do know that many young, new Christian women also read this blog and with that in mind, I wanted to provide a balanced view of these issues. I don’t believe that the VFM definition of Biblical Patriarchy is balanced based on Scripture.
With regards to adult children at home, I included a link in my original post that does a very good job approaching this issue in a balanced manner (and also highlights some of the dangers of the “multi-generational” ideology), so for my views on that, refer to that link. I consider this portion of “biblical patriarchy” to be one of the most grievous and dangerous to the future generations of our children.
With regards to quiverfull: I have no desire to open a debate here on this issue. I know that the writer and many of the readers, including yourself, embrace the blessing of quiverfull. And I have no judgment whatsoever for you or against you regarding that. I pray that God allow us to have more children, too. However, I do not believe that the Scriptures – either directly or through precept or principle – teach that women are to bare children as long as they are physically able. I believe that the Scriptures teach that children are a blessing and that we are to be very sober about our training them up in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. I do not promote birth control in the form of the pill or any other hormone induced method, nor do I believe in sterilization for men or women (the latter is more for long-term health reasons than anything.) I do realize that with feminism and the introduction of the pill that children came to be seen as “conveniences” (or not) and that ushered in the adoption of a radical abortion holocaust. All that being said, as Believers, I believe that God wants our hearts more than He wants our wombs. Obedience to God is not about numbers but about loving Him enough to say, “Whatever you want, Lord. Show me. I am willing.” And this with regards to all things – not just numbers of children. This is my attitude to my Lord for our family. I will not take the quiverfull platform because I seek the will of God for the number of children in our family, one child at a time, giving God my heart each and every time. And our family uses NFP for “planning” purposes. Again, I know that you and many of the readers and writer do not agree with this, but I hope that you can acknowledge my (and other women’s) hearts of obedience to our Lord with regards to this matter and realize that we are not spiritually deficient to those who embrace quiverfull.
With regards to home education (and this one will be shorter), again, my family will home educate. And I do believe that there is Scriptural support – both directly and in precept – that states that it is not the job of the state to educate our children. However, there are other options to the state (i.e. private Christian education) that are not forbidden in any way. The Biblical principle here is that ultimately the parent will be held accountable for how the child is educated and if the parent farms out all or a portion of that education to someone else then the parent needs to be sure that what is being taught is sound. Again, there is no direct “commandment” stating “THOU SHALT HOMESCHOOL THY CHILD.” Even the Jewish people of the Old and New Testament who received the Deut. 6 mandate sent their boys to be educated with others with regards to trade and rabbinical training. Obviously, it is okay to do this – again, if the parent is thoroughly involved. I realize that the VFM treatment of this issue does RELUCTANTLY state these ideas, but they do so with great reserve for no biblical reason.
Amy
Michelle (and others),
Here is a wonderfully humble approach to “daughters at home” from a mom of 10 children.
http://yoursacredcalling.blogspot.com/2008/02/protecting-our-daughters.html
Amy,
Thank you for your response, very well spoken (written;) I understand where you are coming from and I think I can hear your heart.
I do disagree that the articles from NGJ are balanced. I receive their newsletter and have been blessed by them, but I don’t think he really presented a good biblical view of patriarchy. He certainly points out the bad that can happen when people DO NOT live in a biblical patriarchal way. But that, I guess is the problem. It’s not biblical patriarchy that is wrong, it is those who distort it that mess things up.
I have seen and experienced beautiful examples of the ‘adult children at home’ point. I’m not saying there are not those out there who do just what he says, but then again its not the principle that is wrong, it is the people who are not biblical.
I totally respect where you are coming from in regards to ‘quiverfull’ though I despise labels. I didn’t even know I would be considered ‘quiverful’ till a couple of years ago:) When the Lord led us down this path of completely trusting Him with the number of children we would have I didn’t know I would be considered a part of some movement;)
I guess where I am coming from on this subject is not so much that God COMMANDS we bare children as long as physically able, but the decision to not limit children in any way comes from a deep belief…
…that God is TOTALLY sovereign over everything, including my womb.
…A belief that life comes directly and ONLY from Him. He doesn’t say “oh, shoot, there she goes again having s*x at the right time of the month, guess I need to give life here”. (hope that wasn’t sacrilegious,:)But do you know what I mean? It is He that knits a baby together in our wombs, one that He totally planned on from the beginning of time. It’s not a surprise to Him. He did it on purpose.
…A belief that ‘just because we sow a seed does not necessarily mean we will reap a baby’
…A belief that if God is to be Lord over ALL, than that includes my womb, but also everything else as well. My heart, mind, time, money,ect.
I am not trying to convince you to jump on board the ‘quiverfull’ platform, I hope you believe that. I am just sharing my heart.
I am just trying to present my picture of it.
I also agree there is no ‘thou shall homeschool’ command. My big hang up with this one is simply I have no idea how I could possibly fulfill all the commands to me as a parent if my children were gone all those valuable hours everyday!
Again, thank you Amy, very good post and your tender heart towards the Lord was evident.
Blessings,
Michelle
shelookethwell.blogspot.com
Michelle,
Thank you, too, for your heart response. I very much appreciate your genuine and humble approach to these topics that have divided so many.
I do agree that the NGJ article certainly highlighted the devistating stories with regards to adult children at home. Anytime one takes an extreme, legalistic position on any biblical precept (or perceived biblical precept) it becomes very dangerous. Many a cult has been started this way. I believe that the one point that this article makes that is worth receiveing is that even in the OT, God designated that thier was indeed an age where children were accountable to God outside of the realm of their parents; that children were to hear and worship and respond directly to God without the mediator of the parent. I beleive that this is a crucial biblical doctrine for all of us. None of us need a mediator to hear and discern God’s will — just the Holy Spirit. So if our adult children discern for their lives a call or move that we do not agree with, we cannot claim “bilbical patriarchy” to keep them under our authority or within our protection. They have to be able to hear from God, and receive dicipline from God if they move in disobedience, on their own.
I also respect your position and heart with regards to God’s sovereignty over your family. I, too, acknowledge the sovereignty of God. I do not believe that my families choice to use NFP denies God’s sovereignty, nor do I believe that God ever takes an “accidental approach” to knitting together a child in the womb. I believe that all children are the result of God’s hand on a womb. And I feel no pressure to “jump aboard” the quiverfull express:-) If God so desires my heart to respond in this way in this area, He knows that He has it.
On a side note, is it against “blog etiquette” to actually spell out the word sex? I have seen the “s*x” several times, and I am just curious. I suppose I don’t see this as a taboo word but as a wonderful gift from God to be delighted in.
And finally, totally agreed on the homeschool issue. Still, I feel a sincere need to offer grace to those who choose differently.
It’s one thing to recognize the truth or begin to see that you’ve been doing things wrong. It’s very difficult to change your heart when your mind has only been changed on the surface. I am just starting to realize how much the me-first-in-marriage culture has been ingrained in my thinking. I’ve prescribed myself a daily dose of your blog to begin to retrain my way of thinking. Thank you.