The most recent news from Samaritans, the medical sharing program of which we are members:
“The health care bill that was passed Sunday night by the U.S. House of Representatives, often referred to as the Senate bill, contains a provision that exempts members of health care sharing ministries from the bill’s requirement for individuals to purchase health insurance. This is the bill that is awaiting the President’s signature. We are continuing to watch the reconciliation process, an effort to make changes to the Senate bill after the President signs it, for anything that would take away this exemption. Please be in prayer.
Although we have been given protection, we are very concerned about the effect this bill will have on all the American people, our health care system, and the economy, if the provisions of this bill are actually implemented. While many of the provisions will take effect soon, the individual and employer mandates to purchase health insurance are not scheduled to take effect until 2014, after the next presidential election. We need to continue to pray for God’s intervention in this situation.”
I encourage you to consider taking part in this fabulous ministry (provided it remains an option) as it is economically far more affordable than health insurance, contains very comprehensive coverage and is a biblical–not socialist–approach to “bearing one another’s burdens”.
58 comments
I just looked at their website and guidelines. They will not publish needs for mental health services (psychiatrist visits, medicines etc). Are there any other sharing programs that will support individuals who suffer from mental illness?
Oh my. And I thought that your form of health insurance would “disappear” under this new bill? You’ll admit that I was right about that, won’t you!
Some people can’t afford to take on any more expenses- no matter how small. I work hard- over 40 hours a week. I’m a single mother. We deserve health care. The cost of health care has gone up beyond inflation. I haven’t had basic services since I was 20-years old. (pap smears, blood tests, hearing/eye exams, etc..) That isn’t right. Income shouldn’t determine your access to these things. I’m not fat. I’m a drug or alcohol a abuser. Why shouldn’t I have health care- including mental and dental?
Ashley,
I can’t answer your question. I can say that though it seems unfair, health care is not a basic human right. It’s a privilege, and because of greed, insurance companies have certainly pushed the ability to afford basic care beyond what some are able to reach. We struggle too and can’t afford insurance premiums. But it comes down to being able to look beyond your current situation and know that socialized medicine is not good for anyone in the long run.
I am not opposed to socialized health care because “I don’t care about people” as some have asserted. We’re in the same boat with everyone else financially. It’s a real problem and I’m not here to argue that. I feel for you.
I can’t point these questions to you, but I know many single mothers who are single because they left husbands without a biblical reason. Part of the consequence in their lives is being financially strapped. Many do not belong to a church.
Christian charity is alive and well in some places. I mentioned that our church is currently taking care of a woman and her children who had to leave an abusive husband. Life is messy, for sure. Your situation may be totally different. In the end, though, we can’t rally for things that are inherently wrong just because they solve a temporary problem for us.
Millie,
Your comment and your tone is so weird to me. Samaritans warned us that in the beginning, our program did NOT make an exemption. A clause was added (found?) that allows it for now. They are still threatening to change the bill once it is signed to sneakily remove exemptions for programs like these. That’s not a “aha” moment for you; I’ve merely reported from Samaritans as they report to me. If you want to have a respectful debate on this blog, fine–I allow it all the time. But your continual condescension is most unwelcome.
I’m completely respectful. I’m simply pointing out that there was never a reason to believe that Samaritans would not be exempt. That was false information.
There is no “threat” either. Once again, I suggest you READ THE BILL. It’s all in there. I promise.
Millie,
“Never a reason”…hmmmm….when the officers of a mega corporation who are reading and studying the bill, speaking with attorneys and financial experts about what it means for their company SAY to us (in the form of letters, emails, etc.) that there is a possibility of no exemption or talks of rewriting parts that would include no exemption, I would be remiss to brush that off as “nonsense”. Your comment insults my intelligence, as if I’m making up stuff.
Millie,
The following statement enforces my real concerns, voiced by Samaritans, about the uncertainty of the bill. As it was originally written, we were not exempt–that’s cause for concern.
“Members of Samaritan Ministries International will be able to continue sharing medical needs as they have done for the past 15 years, thanks to an exemption to the individual mandate in the health care bill approved by the U.S. House on Sunday, James Lansberry said Monday.”
An exemption was actually added very recently, as far as I can tell. The original letter we received from Samaritans indicated that the bill did not, at the time, include our exemption. I really don’t even know why this information has been such a “catch” with you anyway…just stating some facts.
We beloing to Christian healthcare ministries. I love it! We save so much money and I love praying for the other members needs. We often use alternative medicine so we were used to paying out of pocket for medical expenses…at least we are not having a huge monthly premium to deal with on top of that. We also joined because my husband is self-employed and I had a pre-exisiting condition that made getting not-so- great coverage VERY expensive.
Kelly, why do you believe that healthcare should be a privilege and not a right? I’m not talking about the Bill, just interested to know in general.
Amen to “healthcare is not a right but a privilege!!!” It is this very mentalily that leads us down the path to socilalism. The right we entered this world with was life, beyond that we are given God’s grace.
I was watching John Piper talk about why God allowed bad things to happen in the Old Testament and he said something to the effect that the very fact that we are still breathing is a testament to God’s grace.
We are all sinners who need the blood of Jesus to cleanse us and we deserve nothing but punishment if not we aren’t covered by His blood!!!
We have to stop looking to the government to provide us with “privileges”! This idea of entitlement drives me crazy.
This was worth re-posting. I’d say our citizens have discovered that “they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury”. That sense of entitlement so many of us don’t like can be explained by this quote. For the record, I also think the indoctrination of our education system instructs quite well that same sense of entitlement. I won’t even mention tv, magazines, etc.
Early 19th century Professor Alexander Tytler described the dilemma of democracy in the following comments about ancient Athens:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes the candidates promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilization has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back into bondage.”
Avaya,
For millenia, men have understood the difference in rights and privileges; it is only recently, that we have effectively bred a generation of “entitlement” mentality. This quote reinforces my thoughts a bit:
“The concept of individual rights is so new in human history that most men have not grasped it fully to this day. In accordance with the two theories of ethics, the mystical or the social, some men assert that rights are a gift of God – others, that rights are a gift of society. But, in fact, the source of rights is man’s nature.
There is only one fundamental right: a human being’s right to their own life. All the others are its consequences or corollaries. The right to life is the source of all rights.”
Thomas Jefferson said in his first inaugural address, “A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity.”
I think it’s important to distinguish that in our contemporary culture, that “rights” and “entitlements” are used interchangeably, when they are not the same at all. Rights come with a high requisite standard of accountability. Entitlement suggests that no responsibility is borne by the recipient. Hence much of the confusion. There’s a culturally fundamental misunderstanding of, and refusal to accept, the necessary responsibility of freedom.
Heath care is a right – for those willing to take on the accompanying responsibility (and I’m not just talking about money). It sounds cold only because we have gotten comfortable in our belief that other people should pay for what we feel we “deserve”, that others should sacrifice on our behalf and not ask any questions. Perpetual teenage mentality.
Please don’t misunderstand – I am fervently in prayer for true reform – this bill wasn’t it. It’s also ironic that in the secular community, charitable giving is usually emotionally driven according to availability of discretionary income…the crippling burden this “reform” is placing on the middle class is going to effectively put community level charities out of business. Fewer choices and less help, not more, for the truly needy. Lord help us.
I LOVE the Samaritans concept! My hubby and I looked it up on Youtube and boy do we wish we had something like that up here in the North!
Your replies to the miffed are bang-on Kelly. May God bless you for standing for what’s true and biblical despite the fact that it seems to be rather unpopular with a few of your readers.
I love reading your clear and concise summaries about the issues at hand. You really do have an articulation gift!
Keep on! 🙂
Jacinda,
You’re very kind and encouraging. I’m surprised there have not been more sharing ministries popping up in Canada (that’s where you’re from, right?) given the socialized situation…but it’s possible in your area that such ministries are not allowed ???
Kelly, Thank you so much for your diligence on this issue.
I want to comment on what one of your readers said. Maybe you can help me understand.
I would like to know why she thinks my husband and other working individuals of this country are responsible for funding her ”pap smear”? My husband is raising five children, on a single income. We have been offered insurance but don’t want it. Not only because it is $700, a month but also because it pays for things we don’t believe in. It is a choice we made, as it is with many families who join Samaritan. We are all for charitable health care. But Obamacare is not charitable it is forced which is socialism and slavery. How can anyone think that is a good idea?
“Ashley…”Back to the Pap smear, if you want a pap smear go get one. If it is important to you save up. Give up eating out, cable, cut expenses, and shop at the thrift shop (like many of the rest of us). My family should not have to give up more of our basic needs to pay the almost $20,000 a year premium Obamacare, so you can have a pap smear!
Luke 199:13-19
And Jesus told those gathered around him, “You are not your brother’s keeper. You do not have to take care of anybody but yourself. It’s all about you. Why should you care about anybody else? Why should you allow your hard earned money to go to support another human being? It’s your money! If you start taking care of other people, you may not be able to provide for yourself and your own family. Family comes first. Health care is not a right. If a person wants health care then they ought to provide it for themselves. Freebies are not a part of the kingdom of God. And if a person dies because of inadequate health care or lack of health care, don’t worry about that either. Don’t sweat it. Hey, people have to die some way and people have to die some day anyway.”
@Ashley who “deserves” health care – You absolutely should have access to healthcare, everybody should. So you have two choices. You can support a system where government gets out of the way and lets you, as an individual, negotiate freely with the doctor of your choice over price and care, and where if your first choice is too expensive, you can go somewhere else. But that would mean the government would have to allow health insurance companies to compete across state lines, hospitals would have to stop receiving government subsidies, governments would have to stop requiring insurance companies to cover multitudes of procedures half the people aren’t interested in … etc. This is a good primer on why healthcare under the current system is so expensive (http://mises.org/daily/3793).
Now, option 2, is for you to bring a gun to my house, and threaten to kidnap me and/or kill me if I don’t open my wallet and hand you the money for whatever you want. Obamacare is option 2.
Yes, you deserve healthcare, we all do. What type of person you are inside (something only the Master Healer can fix) will determine which approach you support.
Daria,
Sarcasm loses its effectiveness when the whole premise of the point is based on a complete misunderstanding of that point.
Jesus DID say “bear one another’s burdens”. I post here ALL the time about our need to die to self and put others first. Don’t assume for one minute, though, that the command to show Christian love is the same as being forced to provide something for another, removing all voluntary action. Such is no longer love at all.
Argue your socialist message all day, but don’t use the Scripture to do it. As one reader already said, it is an absolute slap in the face of God to do so.
Perhaps this is a little more clear:
“The difference between charity and socialism is the same as the difference between sex and rape.”
Clear enough?
Daria,
Another question…why do you have the same IP address as “Millie”?
I looked into Samaritan healthcare at some point, but I got the impression that they had nothing against paying for birth control–am I wrong there? Also, not sure it is allowed in MA.
ycw,
I’m almost positive they do NOT pay for birth control pills, surgery, etc. And I know they cover all states in the US–I called and asked.
Their number is a direct line to a friendly rep. ready to answer your questions. Here it is:
1-888-268-4377
Daria, LOL. Jesus did in fact have a sense of humor.
Still, attemting to elevate a broken commandment to Christian benevolence will never make it anything other than what it is – Foul fruit of a poisoned tree.
“But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever”. (1 Timothy 5:8).
So yes – family first. I would think we’d like to encourage that, rather than criticize it. If men and women were looking after their own households, much of the problem would be self- resolved.
Kelly, That is why I love the Christian sharing programs…they are a way for us to “bear each others burdens” and we do so with a happy heart.
I agree Lucy. We have saved tons of money negotiating and shopping around for health care. I saved half going to my midwife for a pap, half on some radiology, and my husband even worked off 1,500 of our homebirth bill with our midwife since they needed work at their house.
I got nervous recently when we decided to have the lowest coverage on our sharing plan so I had to have the Lord search my heart…For me it really comes down to Jesus is my Healer and God has all of my days ordained. My hope is in His grace and perfect sovereignty over my life. My hope cannot be in government as savior and my country a utopia. One, because it never works and two, God alone must be One His throne…He will have no other gods/saviors before Him. I cannot put my hope in the false idol of comfort and security even though I am tempted often to do so.
Well what about unbelievers? The more the government takes over the less they will turn to the Body of Christ and the Lord for help. I don’t want the government to take over me loving my neighbor. I would rather give my money to them directly than having the government take and keep most of it to perpetuate itself.
Socialism definately builds a generation of people who feel “entitled” to hand-outs. Canada is full of it. Why work when the welfare system will pay your bills? Why take care of our own children when public schools will do it for us? Why take care of ourselves when healthcare is ‘free’ for the taking?
There is nothing ‘free’ about a socialist approach to government. With so many hands held out for the ‘free’ ride, we are building a staggering debt with very little return on our taxes (for those of us who have to pay them).
It is a far cry from Christian love when the government it telling us to give.
We don’t have insurance. We can’t afford it, even though we do without the things others have mentioned(eating out, new clothing, etc).
We have had to pay out of pocket at times, and yes, it would be nice to have insurance, but at what cost?
I don’t feel entitled to healthcare and I would rather chip away at my own bills for a lifetime than get “free” healthcare in this manner.
Even if I don’t see full-blown socialism in my lifetime (which is very likely- I’m 23) I fear the bondage of tomorrow into which we will thrust our children by our selfish actions today.
We have been greatly blessed by Samaritan Ministries! Knowing that there are believers all around the country praying for you is astounding, and all of our discussions with the staff have been phenomenal. They even know us by name (not sure if that’s a good thing or not!) And I can assure you they DO NOT pay for birth control!
When doctors told my husband we probably would be unable to conceive again, Samaratin promised to pray that the Lord would bless us with many more children. Fancy an insurance company saying that!!!
Thanks for your response, Kelly. Would you, however, call health care a necessity, if not a right?
I have another question (I am trying to get all the various arguments clear in my head).
In reading the discussions on these posts I get the impression that people feel the government is stealing from them in order to fund health care for others. I have also read suggestions to negotiate the cost of care with doctors if one is not able to afford healthcare. My question is, is this not putting healthcare professionals under undue pressure to be charitable-would this not in a way amount to stealing the fruit of the doctor’s labour? Depending on where a doctor practices, he/she could see an awful lot of such requests.
Also, do people not use free emergency services at hospitals? Is this not funded by taxes?
I am not American, so forgive me if I sound ignorant.
Avaya,
If I run my health care bills through my health insurance company, the doctor submits a fee of between $50-$80, depending on the services I receive. The insurance company then sends a statement to the doctor and one to me saying that according to the “rules” he can only charge me $35… and then I pay my bill (because I have to pay 100% of my deductable before the insurance company pays a penny). If I circumvent the insurance company and pay cash on the spot, my doctor only charges me $30–that is less than the insurance company allows. The doctors charge more up front because they expect to collect less. However, they would rather charge less up front to avoid the middle man, cut down on paperwork and hassle and get get rid of the long wait to receive payment that often accompanies the use of an insurance company. So no, by negotiating fees, we’re not stealing from the doctors. 😉
Hi, Avaya – you didn’t ask me, but your question is compelling, and I used to wonder the same thing…”My question is, is this not putting healthcare professionals under undue pressure to be charitable-would this not in a way amount to stealing the fruit of the doctor’s labour?”
Negotiating price isn’t stealing – it’s an agreement for services at a certain price. What’s interesting about health care is that it’s one of those categories in which cost doesn’t always equal quality. Additionally, it’s the Doctor’s choice whether or not to accept what a patient is offering to pay. The advantage to everyone with a cash payment or short term schedule of payments is that often the Dr is getting paid more in a shorter amount of time with lower administrative costs than he/she would with an insurance involved case. Insurance companies often ammend payments with little to no recourse by the provider, and pay slowly, often as long as 4 to 6 months is standard, with lower administrative costs. How much lower could a Dr’s fees be, and yet still be more profitable, if he didn’t need to house an insurance administration office within his practice? What if he could hire a nurse practioner, or midwife, instead, to practice with him? Practitioners who can see more patients, at lower cost?
A doctors best customer is a vested cash paying patient. It’s been my personal experience that they typically work to keep them.
Hi Kelly,
You directed a question to my wife Jacinda concerning the absence of sharing ministries in Canada.
It made me think! It is weird that I’ve never even heard of a sharing ministry in Canada. I’m not sure if they are allowed or not around here, but I do have a funny feeling that the reason there are none of the sharing ministries here is because we are a generation or two more advanced in our socialism (at least re: healthcare) than your country.
I am 26, raised in a great church/school, and only within the last year has it even entered my mind to question the socialistic atmosphere in this country. I simply was never trained to discern what was even going on. I really didn’t even know what socialism was – it was mostly some vague concept in my mind that had something to do with the USSR.
I think my parent’s generation felt some of the changes that your country is going through right now, but just didn’t have the know how to figure out how the government was wooing them into the trap we’re experiencing today.
Interesting tidbit re: the state of healthcare in Canada: There are more MRI machines in the city of Philadelphia than there are in Canada.
This is not because they don’t fit in our igloos:). It’s simply because people just have to wait 6 months to get checked out, too bad for you, find somewhere else to get fixed otherwise. And this is why people I know have crossed the border into the US, paid out of their own pocket (imagine!) to get a US doctor to take care of them when their own countrymen can’t be bothered – his BMW is getting paid for anyway.
What wonderful comments! I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this post, though it breaks my heart at the same time.
We are members of Medi-Share, which is similar to Samaritan Ministries. We have friends who are members also and have been for the last few years. I have nothing but good things to say about them and they are certainly worth checking out as an option. There is even a health discount available for members if you are within target height, weight, BMI, etc for your age. I love it! It’s a little extra incentive to eat right and exercise :o)
Their site is here: http://medi-share.org/Default.aspx
I checked out a few of these, but they don’t welcome believers who are not an active tithing *member* of a church (building). There are many reasons why someone might not belong to a church organization, & many more ways to give toward His kingdom, but yet are excluded. I also referred a friend to it who does belong to a church, but they would not “qualify” due to pre-existing conditions.
So I guess we folks don’t count as far as Jesus’ words…
Nothing against you personally… but it’s still a business; no better it seems.
Brad,
Very insightful thoughts…thanks for sharing them!
Michele,
As far as I can tell Samaritan does not require that you belong to a church building.Or that you are tithing. They do require that you are acountable to another Christian leader.That you don’t drink, do drugs, fornicate, or use tobacco. We actually joined Samaritan, while attending a home church. As for the pre-exsisting conditions…if they qualified all pre-exsisting conditions our share amounts would no longer be afforadable.
My heart goes out to families with on going medical issues.I don’t know what the soulution is. However an exemption for the beneifit of all does not mean it is a bad thing for all.Sometimes a family may need to get additional coverage. Not the most ideal solution, but it is a soulution.
As far as I can tell Samaritan will allow people with pre-exsiting conditions to join, but Samamritan won’t let them publish a claim for that condition. However Samaritan offers a secondary option for non publishable issues.Samaritan will announce the families claim as an additional giving option. Members can give to that family if they feel led to.Charity at it’s best! Most people I know that have submited secondary claims often have the entire amount covered.
Kelly, as a Christian how can you say that health care is not a right? Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan? According to the “health care is a privilege” theory, the good samaritan should have helped the injured man only if the injured man could afford the cost of the bandages and room at the inn, etc, I really can’t understand how low-income families who are obviously struggling can be against universal health care which would ultimately benefit them. I would understand if rich people were against it, but how can you be against someone getting free healthcare if you’re not so well off yourself and can’t afford premium insurance. For us in Europe, healthcare is indeed a right. I suggest you and your fellow low-income opponents of universal healthcare study a bit European healthcare systems, especially the Franch and Scandinavian ones, much more extensive than Obama’s bill and arguably the best in the world, before stating that Obama’s plan is socialist. And also,you should read the Bible more carefully. Both Jesus and the early Christian community would qualify as socialist by today’s standards. And please don’t confuse socialist policies with the atheism of Marx and many communist societies.
Alix,
I have explained, AD NAUSEUM, the difference in socialism and charity, as the Bible instructs us. Not explaining again. Perhaps you should study the difference a little more closely–it’s embarrassing that people actually equate the two.
Alix,
You said:
“I suggest you and your fellow low-income opponents of universal healthcare study a bit European healthcare systems, especially the Franch and Scandinavian ones, much more extensive than Obama’s bill and arguably the best in the world”
http://www.euthanasia.com/euthanasiamap.html
Euthanasia was legalized in Belgium in 2002. Under the current law, a patient must be over 18, terminally ill and in constant suffering in order to qualify for euthanasia. The country has considered extending the law to include children ever since the present law was first passed.
Last month the Netherlands announced it would allow the legal euthanasia of babies and children under 12 years. Dutch doctors admitted to the unauthorized killing of infants prior to the legislation; at least 15 babies were killed every year, many of them born with non-fatal genetic disorders.
And your tax dollars pay for this? Or do you consider this charity?
This has been an interesting discussion and I can appreciate all opinions. I am one who is in favor of the sharing programs. We had “good” insurance until it got too expensive for the ministry my husband works for to continue paying for the group plan, and they gave us the option to find something individual. We looked at the company we had before, but for and individual plan with maternity, for me, would be almost $500 per month, ouch! We looked into several of the share programs before we chose to go with Samaritan. We have been members for 3 years and have loved it.
Since joining we have had 2 healthy babies, in with they shared the full cost of prenatal and delivery, this in the space of 2 years. Three months after our first I became pregnant with our 2nd and when contacting them to publish our need there was nothing but joy from them on our good news. All that to say we support the mission statement of the ministry and LOVE the concept of biblical burden bearing.
Cottage Child, thank you. I like to hear all sides of an argument.
I agree that negotiating per se isn’t stealing, but what if a doctor feels under pressure to lower the cost? Certain professions tend to get this more than others. I once knew a lawyer who was just building his practice and couldn’t really afford to do as much pro bono work as he did. But because legal aid wouldn’t cover certain people and they needed help, he did it anyway. A healthcare professional might feel even more compelled to serve someone at a less than fair rate because it is health and someone’s life may depend on it. I’m just wondering how we can balance the need of people to see doctors and be treated without doctors being put under pressure to be charitable.
I’m still having trouble seeing healthcare as a privilege. If we don’t call it a right, is it something that should be accessible to all (though we can debate over how that’s achieved?)
For those of you who are in favor of government run healthcare, I’m hoping you can explain something for me. You want everyone to have equal care that is your goal correct? Now the question remains do you want good care or bad care?
Evidence has revealed that when the government administers healthcare they do it with tax dollars. When tax dollars are used there is a limited amount of money available. Even with an increase in taxes, every country that has this have found that the cost exceeds what they are able to bring in in taxes. When that happens they need to cut costs, the easiest way is to start rationing care. Not everyone will get what they want. There is going to be a panel that determines who gets what depending on their ability to contribute to society still. (Grandma doesn’t contribute much so no drugs for her…) Can you tell me how this system is “good”. Don’t tell me it won’t happen. Everywhere it is tried has evidence of this happening. They try to hide it, but you can find instances everywhere.
How does this help poor people that can’t afford insurance? How does this provide equal healthcare for all? Please use examples not generalities. Thanks.
This is something we should all watch. There is a tradeoff and we need to be aware of what it is.
Alix, Isn’t France always dealing with riots? I don’t know if you realize that people who can afford to, come to America for healthcare they pay for. Also, one of your arguments was that if it benefits us not so well off people we should be in favor of it. Well, that is selfish and definitely not a Christian trait. YOu do what is best for others, rather than yourself. I do not think “free” ha ha Healthcare is what is best for our country. Socialized medicine is not as successful as you seem to think. I don’t know have anything to compare it to, but I don’t think you could if you think your system is better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJuhALi3GxM
Leslie,
France has one of the best healthcare systems in the world. I know because I am half French and I was born and raised there. I still have family and friends there and I spend all my holidays and vacations there. You obviously know next to nothing about France if all you can say is that it is “always dealing with riots” For your information, there have been a few protests over the years, but it happened in the poorer neighbourhoods inhabited by the immigrant population. It was nothing compared to the terrible violence one sees in big cities like N.Y or L.A. And obvoiusly these protests have nothing to do with healthcare. Also, my mother is a doctor who has worked in several European countries and she always says that French healthcare is the best, with the exception of possibly Denmark and Norway. In France, a homeless person with a serious illness gets the same high quality care as a top executive.
You also said “one of your arguments was that if it benefits us not so well off people we should be in favor of it. Well, that is selfish and definitely not a Christian trait. YOu do what is best for others, rather than yourself.” That is ironic, I am selfish because I want free universal healthcare but you are not selfish because you don’t want to pay a small amount of taxes in order for everyone to benefit from healthcare?!Of course healthcare systems are not perfect. But it’s better to have some kind of healthcare available than none at all. Bottom line: charity is just that: charity. You can’t make people help the sick and the poor if they don’t want to. But if all are made by law to pay a certain amount of taxes, all will benefit from healthcare. It’s very easy for greedy insurance firms to scare gullible, uneducated people with the word “socialized medicine”, so they can keep their monopoly. I really don’t understand how the so-called “land of liberty” is full of so-called Christians who are against basic human rights like universal healthcare and free education. I think the answer is your innate selfishness. You are being tolerant and charitable to your own kind. The others can just drop dead.
Hi Avaya – if you’re still reading -I can only say that being in business as a Christian requires us to seek to serve others first. It’s the Biblical recipe for success. I can only speak from that perspective – “pressure” isn’t a fair assessment of a negotiation, if it’s an honest one. I am certainly not advocating misrepresenting a charitable need when really just a lower price is wanted, or waiting until after a service is provided or good is received to try to strong arm someone into accepting a lower payment – that, to my mind, IS stealing, or attempting to.
That said – when I take my 3 children for checkups, I schedule them for the same appointment time, and always ask for a modified price -the Dr’s not filing insurance, he’s able to see all of them within the span of a usual single appointment, so I’m saving him time and money and paper shuffling. From a business standpoint, he’s earning more charging me for two look/sees instead of three, because he’s only using one appointment slot. Last time we were there I did the height/weight myself, because I knew our questions were running over. The insurance paperwork alone for three children would take about an hour – I asked. We only need one nurse for all three. He’s profiting more, I’m paying less, everyone gets what they need. No pressure or deceptive practice necessary. If he were not amenable to the arrangement, he could certainly say so, and then I could decide if I wanted to research another pediatrician or pay to stay, but I certainly wouldn’t think less of him.
By the way – I educated myself to the expenses of Dr’s offices, insurance billing, staff etc – so I could make a reasonable offer. It created a much more sympathetic relationship. I also know what insurance companies pay/are billed in relationship to what cash basis patients pay – I made sure to choose a Dr. who’s fees to cash patients weren’t falsely inflated so that discount seemed larger. Unfortunately that happens.
One last thing – if there is a genuine charitable need – make it known. I woke up sick as a dog one morning and needed to see a doctor (I never go, so it was serious). We had just paid a large bill and I foolishly let our account get too low to cover a visit. So I called a couple of Dr’s, two of whom referred me to the emergency room (no problem – it’s usual). One said he would take a deferred payment, so I went in. At the end of the appt, including a throat culture and a big bag of sample antibiotics, he wouldn’t take my payment information. Just asked that I donate to charity so another person in need could be seen. Guess who my Doctor was until he retired (sniff)? I think there’s a misunderstanding that we shouldn’t have to make our needs known, that somehow people are holding out on us because they can’t just figure it out. I made a need known – and multiple people were blessed and humbled. It’s funny how God works in that circumstance.
Anyway, sorry for the looooonnnng answer, but I to clearly express that the spirit these things are approached with is key. Nice visiting with you.
Let me ask you a different question. Most of you have made some sort of reference to emergency room or charity hospital care for people who can’t get health insurance because of pre-existing conditions (and it appears that Samaritans won’t cover you either.) Well, who do you think is actually paying for this care? The hospital systems can’t absorb it. Emergency rooms provide insanely expensive care. Then you the taxpayer pays for it.
Unless you don’t want anyone to take their six year old with a brain tumor for treatment? Because the bill actually covers children. Don’t we all agree that this is a good thing? Does right to life end when you are born?
Leslie,
Seeing that the bill passed covers abortion, I don’t see how your question is relevant.
You are ignoring the fact that ability to obtain care will actually become more difficult with the bill passed because of the rationing that WILL happen (it has happened in every country that has tried this.)
Of course we want everyone to recieve care, we are Pro Life for everyone not just unborn babies. We just don’t believe this bill is the answer. We see it causing more problems and solving few. We have the same desire to see people covered and cared for. We differ in our ideas to solutions.
Alix, you have been talking about Frances healthcare. I’m happy you enjoy the healthcare there. As far as the “land of the liberty” I believe you have no idea what that means. Liberty means free FROM government interference, not more of it. Just because we have different ideas on how to help people, does not mean we care less for people. Let History speak for its self. Every country that has tried socialism (healthcare included) has a substandard of technology, inovation, and quality compared to the USA who has relied (for the most part) on free enterprise. It sounds so greedy to peole, free enterprise, it sounds selfish and dog eat dog. This country has created a middle class where there once was none. It has allowed people of every economic beginning to move up in status. YOU may think that is selfish, but the evidence shows otherwise. When businesses florish and make money, so do the people in the surrounding communities. When we take healthcare’s ability to do that, and individuals ability to invest in business and create more jobs (ie taxes on the wealthy) we HURt everyone. It may help the poor for a short term, but in the end it hurts them as well.
Rachel
Rachel, if I understand your point, you’d rather have free enterprise then a system that will treat children without question. Odd. But let me say this again: There isn’t a public option on the healthcare bill. I’m guessing there will never be. THIS IS NOT SOCIALISM. You could call driving on the freeway participating in socialism if you like. The government mandates the roads. It’s possible that on those very highways someone is driving to an abortion! You see the problem, right? Plus, this bill DOES NOT cover abortions. In order to pass it, Obama signed the Hyde Amendment.
You can read more here:
http://blog.faithinpubliclife.org/2010/03/an_authoritative_analysis_of_t.html
[By the way, there is a large middle class in England, France, Canada. And socialized healthcare already exists in this country. It’s called the Veteran’s Administration. It’s done a pretty amazing job so far.]
What I would like to know is:
1. Why penalize and fine people who don’t have coverage and don’t want to sign on with this healthcare plan? They are forcing us to buy into something (how unconstitutional is that!) we don’t want?
2. Did any of you who are for this plan notice that Obama and the senate have EXEMPTED themselves from this? Their own plan not good enough for them?
Jane, it’s because of my previous post. If you don’t have a healthcare plan, you’re going to visit the emergency room, or perhaps have some sort of illness that will require the taxpayers to pick up the bill for you. That’s why in a nutshell. It’s the exact same reason you need to have car insurance. It’s interesting that everyone isn’t yelling “that’s socialism!” when they pay their car insurance. Hah.
And by the way, the “socialist” government health care for senators and congressmen is incredible. You can look it up. Why would they give it up for anything else? Any senator or congressman who voted against this bill and is reaping the rewards of the health care provided by the government is being a giant hypocrite in my opinion. You might want to ask Michele Bachmann about HER health insurance.
I can assure you that anyone in the armed forces isn’t giving up their plan either! Same thing.
Leslie, My husband is a wounded war veteran and I have to say his care for his injuries was substandard, so much so that we had to take some serious risks and step out and get private care. Thank God we did.
There are apparently 2 leslie’s commenting on this. I hope we can keep each other straight.
Alix,
I am definitely not selfish and I certainly don’t want to only help my kind of people. I do object anyone forcing me to help “their” kind of people (whoever that may be). What I object to the MOST about this bill is the requirment that I buy something. I know we have to have auto insurance, if we want to drive. But requiring us to buy something as a consequence of living is rediculous. I understand that we all want everyone in the world to be happy and we don’t want anyone to be hungry or want for anything. However, dependence on the government is NOT good for society. Welfare, while providing for immediate needs, has not helped people groups in the long run. This is just another entitlement program. By the way, we have some programs already to cover children, and people who can’t get covered by regular insurance. It still isn’t free for them, except maybe Medicaid. I would suggest, that it is the responsibility of the immediate and extended family of these unfortunate people to step up and care for their own family members and help pay their insurance premiums. (This gets harder and harder every time we have to pay more money to Uncle Sam.) There is much more accountability when it is your family helping you.
1 Timothy 5:8
8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
There are also very specific instructions for which people should be cared for.
Also, I understand the riots in France were not about healthcare. If I remember correctly (and I may not) they are often about employment and wages? My point was that France’s own population is unhappy with the way things are going. They recently voted in a more conservative PResident, right? I happen to like AMerica and am fed up with some our leaders always trying to make us like Europe. I don’t want to be just like France. IF anyone thinks the other countries are so wonderful, why don’t they go live there? Some of us would like to independent and responsible for ourselves. Even when we dont make much money or have many “things”. The US government is making it increasingly impossible to pursue happiness for yourself or your own family, or those of like faith. It is, IMHO, getting harder and harder to find opportunity to witness to people, simply because instead of the local church food pantry, they are just headed to the food stamp office, instead of the local pastor, just head to DHR where you can get some morally neutral drone worker to meet your needs with someone elses money. And it doesn’t even matter if that someone else objects to what you are doing with it. I don’t see my opinion on state run welfare changing. I just don’t think it is good for any of the parties involved.
Alix,
I just noticed your comment on free education. THere is no such thing as a free education. ONce again, the government is requiring us to pay for something that we don’t agree with. I agree with education, I just don’t think I should have to pay for an education system that pumps out little atheists and does a very poor job of the actual education. If you look at all our government run programs-they stink. The government (no matter who is in power) does a horrible job of running these programs. They are all barely functioning and always need more money.
Can someone please tell me why none of the Christian sharing services I’ve found so far cover mental health expenses??
Elle,
I don’t know other than I’m sure it has something to do with diagnosis/treatment, etc., being much harder to discern than a physical ailment.
Hey Leslie, guess what? I have been to the ER, I have taken my children to the doctor, I had a baby or two, all without insurance, but we WORKED HARD, WE SAVED, to pay for it all. We have helped others when we could. I don’t want you or anybody else responsible for my bills, thank you very much! We don’t have lots of money, my husband is a carpenter, but are needs are met.
If you want somebody else helping you with yours, that is your business, you can buy into it if you like, but if I don’t want to buy into it myself, I do not want to be forced to pay a fine, out of my pocket, because of my choice.
As for your insane car insurance argument, if I don’t pay for it, I don’t drive, simple. So far the govt. hasn’t insisted I pay for yours or anyone else’s (at least not yet), and I’m not penalized (other than not being able to drive) for not having it.
Not sure why you’re picking on Michelle Bachmann, unless it’s because she’s a Republican. I’m no particular fan of hers either. I’m not crazy about either political party at this time. And you’re right, why should they want to switch to Obamacare, any of them, they’ve got it too good right now. It’s going to be inferior healthcare, and they know it. Subject themselves to the same care we are in for, and then see how they feel about it.
I just wanted to add….
If I gave the impression in my above post that we did this “all ourselves” that’s not the impression I wanted to give. I give all the glory to God for His help in times of trouble, for His comfort when things did not work as we wanted them to, for His provision for us as He sees fit.
Also, if something really catastrophic happens, He is bigger than any catastrophy or circumstance, He determines the outcome. Unless you really know Him, you will not understand.