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I guess the occasional, completely misunderstood comment leaves me with an ache in my heart; I know blog world is like that, and I have to accept that you don’t really know me, and I don’t really know you, and when I talk about strong subject matter I’m bound to get random comments that bite.
Back in the post “What’s the Church For”, I received such a comment. The accusation was basically that I am a cold, uncompassionate, critical Pharisee who does not care about the lost. Part of that comment reads:
“Once again, i cannot even believe the judgement and condemnation and ridiculous blanket criticism… You are obnoxious. I suppose you also think Jesus should not have dined with sinners or ministered to an adulterous woman at the well. I am embarrassed to be thought of in the same circle as you. Perhaps you should post signs around your church property with rules about who may enter and worship our God. They must be dressed correctly, they must not sway, they must already be perfect, huh?”
(And I’m sure many felt the same way who chose not to leave such a comment.)
Couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’ll not try to re-explain my stance on this issue; if it’s misunderstood, it will have to remain that way. A careful reading of those posts may help clear up confusion.
I guess that comment has prompted me to share a few personal stories which may or may not reveal a bit more about who I am, but I hoped it would.
I grew up in a Christian home where my parents began a ministry when I was 11 that they continue to this day. They opened up our home to children who had either been abandoned by their parents, or otherwise abused and removed from home. Some were very young, some were older teens. All were absolutely broken.
Ours was an interesting life…I could write a book about the things we saw, the broken lives that called our home theirs, and the sadness wrought in families who have been destroyed by various sins.
I never got used to hearing the angry little boy we kept for about 6 years curse my mother when he got into trouble. It was such a heart-wrenching thing to process: here was a little boy who had been mistreated since birth, never really loved, with serious problems because of it. My family had taken him in as ours; we provided him everything we could. We had shared every part of our lives, including our hearts. And to watch him turn and curse the hand that fed him and the heart that loved him was often too difficult to conceive; at least at my age.
I learned a lot about a parent’s influence on their children. I learned about the devastation that comes so early in a child’s life; often wounds that leave such a gaping hole, all the love in the world can’t fill it.
All we could do was “visit the orphans in their affliction”. God would have to do the miraculous work of putting back the pieces.
My parents continue to pour out their lives in the lives of these hurting kids. When they are with them, they are a part of our family. (Since we live only a few hundred feet away, “our” family is rather extended.) And usually, long after they leave, our home is still the only home they feel like they have, and my parents the only ones they can call on when they have a need. None of them have ever really, fully left. Even if they do still only linger in our memories.
Forgive me if you misunderstand me sometimes; if I come across too harsh, or judgemental, or hypocritical.
I know of a world where people aren’t perfect. I know of a world where people have never had a single person ever love them. I grew up in that world, and it still touches me every day. I would like to think that I have touched it in some way, though I have failed miserably.
Perhaps, even, some of my zeal comes from having seen the devastation of sin, and desiring to “flee from the appearance of evil”. I don’t think Jesus was opposed to that. I think we need to get a grasp on the difference in reaching out in compassion to the lost, and tolerating sin in the name of Jesus. My parents have lived this principle out for me all my life.
Maybe I haven’t been very clear distinguishing between the two–but they must be distinguished.
I believe we can, and are even commanded to abhor the very presence of evil, and still have hearts filled with compassion for the lost. I pray that you all will strive with me, to be that Christian.
23 comments
That has to be tough receiving comments like that, when people really do not know you or your heart. At least I know it would be for me!
Please know that those people are probably the minority, and that many others (myself included) are very encouraged and uplifted to see you tackle these hard subjects. I myself would like to; but do not feel ready to articulate myself clearly, nor do I currently have the time to get all these thoughts in line to make sense on my blog! So I’m thankful you are!
Be encouraged…you are doing a great job in blog land and making lots of people think!
Meghann 🙂
I think my life and background is much closer to being one of those kids you described than being the Christian trying to love them. I think of myself as an example of the real change that can happen when shown love and a good example. I still have major hang-ups and anger issues but I am a totally different person now.
Kelly, this post just shows you have a conscience, however, this person who said those things to you is simply misguided. It seems like many people have compassion psychosis, they think that helping people means allowing them to continue destroying themselves because it’s “mean” to tell them not to.
I’ll just ditto everything catherine r. said. We live in such a P.C. culture that to take a stand for/against anything is asking for an attack. I know that’s hurtful in an environment where you have shared and made yourself vulnerable. Keep doing what you’re doing, I know you’re helping a lot of people.
Be encouraged — your compassion comes through in every post I’ve ever read of yours! You make me think and I’m reminded that I’m not alone!
awww Kelly ((((HUGS))) De-lurking to let you know I’m praying for you. I agree with what you’ve said … and I appreciate your courage in saying it.
Kelly,
Something I have noticed in a lot of the critical comments (which come to my in-box because I check the box that says email follow-up comments) is that most of them are extremely judgmental and they always accuse you of saying something you never said or implied!
The people who are screaming “Pharisees” are the ones who are the most judgmental in their comments about you.
Hang in there… your blog has blessed our lives (my family).
Word Warrior, your apology did not make a lot of sense, other than to explain that a traumatic childhood in which you saw a lot of hurt is what makes you come across as harsh. What does growing up ministering to unfortunate children have to do with saying that the worship service should only be for believers? This is what drew the criticism in the first place. You did not apologize for that. People have left Bible verses like First Corinthians 14:24,25, showing that unbelievers should be in the worship service. A few people who left comments expressed the desire not to have their children influenced by non-homeschooled children in church or Sunday School. I, and perhaps others, found this to be elitist, as if home-schooled children are perfect and incapable of being a negative influence on others. Yes, we must distinguish between good and evil, but must realize that even in a church where unbelievers are excluded, as you suggest should be the norm, there will be Christians of varying degrees of maturity, who do not yet dress or talk quite rightly. We need to be patient with these people and model right behavior, or even speak kindly to them about their behavior, privately. It is hoped that they will grow and mature and that their outward speech and appearance will improve, even as, you will, I hope, mature in compassion for those who do not enjoy your present circumstances. I am distressed for you that you have abandoned your evangelical, fundamentalist, Armenian theology for reformed theology, which leads to exclusivity — that is, if they are “one of us”, they will make their way to our church, already looking and acting like one of the elect; if they are not “one of us”, keep them out, since they can’t get saved anyway, being the non-elect, and predestined for hell. This is what reformed theology teaches, and eventually, maybe not now, but on down the road, evangelism is tossed by the wayside, and the social gospel prevails (not that we should stop helping the less fortunate — we are commanded to do that). Your writings suggest that you have been deceived into this elitist way of thinking, which is obviously not how you started out. What do your parents think? I am concerned for you, as you seem to have influence with others.
Kelly, I feel bad for you! You always seem to be misunderstood. I gain lots of encouragement from your blog.
I also don’t think we can compare ourselves to Jesus (ie, saying well, Jesus ate with sinners so that means we should too). He was absolutely perfect and had the ability to forgive them of their sins. WE on the other hand, are fallible human beings, who are more easily led astray than we are able to pull others out of the mud.
Laura
“anonymous”, so how do we solve the issue of girls and women attending church in skimpy club clothes, and being a very real distraction to the boys and men attending the services to worship God? Paul was pretty clear about his instructions to throw out a member of the church who was in active sin. This has obviously become an epidemic in the church (and I once was that woman, BTW, so I’m nowhere near a prude)…whether it be skimpy clothes, men addicted to pornography but still showing up to be deacons, etc. How can we take a stand against this kind of thing to help FREE these people, without being harsh or unloving? Kelly makes a good point, this DOES need to be dealt with. But how?
Anon,
You are apparently responding to a preconceived idea you have about a certain group (reformed) rather than to me.
Because I have made it clear that I don’t believe we should “keep sinners out of church” which is what you keep accusing me of. NEVER did I say that.
And when I say that church was established for believers, I’m not projecting my own opinion; I’m referring to the NT church. Paul would have said the same thing (and in fact did!) When people began converting to Christianity, they simply gravitated toward each other for like-minded fellowship…thus the church. Sinners were always welcome. Sometimes they were converted, and probably some were not. But the purpose of meeting was to worship and be taught the Scriptures…geared toward followers of Christ.
You are completely misunderstood about my stance that church is for believers. It’s a fact, not an opinion, or some “anti-sinner” establishment I’m promoting. And what a smug assumption to say that my denomination is an elite group who doesn’t care about the lost!
I’m sorry for you, that you have a hard time wrapping your brain around such a real, basic truth.
Perhaps you should spend your time somewhere else where you are less stressed by the posts.
Kelly, thank you for replying. I do find the posts stressful, because it seems clear to me what you are saying, but then you say you are not saying that. It is confusing. Obviously, I am not the only person who has come to the conclusion that you believe sinners should be kept out of the church. By the way, I am not the anonymous person who said you were obnoxious. Lots of people blog anonymously on your site. I am not the one who said that. Kristi, I don’t know how churches should keep out women who are skimpily dressed. I don’t like it, either. Maybe an usher could be posted at the door to turn people away who are improperly dressed if they claim to be Christians. That would seem unkind, though. Like I said, there are Christians with varying degrees of maturity in any church. You could explain that to your children. I suppose immodestly dressed women could be talked to, nicely and privately. Paul said to kick out a man who called himself a Christian who was living in gross sexual immorality. That is much worse than being indecently dressed. I do agree with you, Kelly, that we shouldn’t dumb-down the Gospel or resort to worldly tactics just to get numbers in. Why, I even heard of a church that told people a $l00 bill would be taped to the underside of one of the chairs, to get people in, or that gave a door prize of $1,000. That is unconscionable. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but sometimes it is hard to get what you are getting at.
I wish someone could quote the confusion about where they think I said sinners should be kept out of the church.
This seems so difficult to communicate…let me try yet again:
The church is what it is. It’s very existence is a fact. The “church” as it relates to the physical place of gathering one day a week, is FOR the believer; the body of Christ, those who have joined the Christian faith.
The unbeliever is more than welcome; but it’s not who the church is for!
I don’t know how else to say it except if you think anything different, you’re confused about the issue and really need to do some searching in Scripture.
Since one of the anon’s made a particular reference to the “error of my reformed faith”, let me relay a conversation I had last night with my armenian, evangelist friend…He said,
“The church is absolutely for the believer. We can go seeker-friendly and focus on trying to lure non-Christians in for conversion, but if we do that, we are no longer the church; we are then an outreach ministry meeting in the church building.”
And that’s fine, but let’s get our terms right.
Anyone who understands the history of the church understands this simple concept. It’s not even an issue of compassion, or our definitions of what The Great Commission looks like; it’s a statement of truth that should never be offensive to the believer. If it is, we have a different view of the gospel than that of our Savior.
We, the body, the universal church MUST be about the GC; we must love the lost, and we must share the gospel. We must love as Christ loved. That fact is unrelated to the fact of the gathering together of saints once a week.
And this understanding of the church, getting our thinking correct, is of the utmost importance. That’s why I cannot let it go.
Let’s stop trying to create a new definition for “the church” and let it’s own definition define it.
Please hear what I’ve been trying to say…the church defines itself…it is the gathering of the saints together. Always has been. Sinners are welcome, but it’s not the purpose of the church.
Word Warrior:
I am curious, what is your religious denomination?
I am reformed Presbyterian.
Anonymous #1, maybe you have been mistreated by someone who came from a Reformed background, but to say that that is the norm is wrong. People are sinners and are capable of causing offense no matter their specific denomination. I know Kelly. She is not calloused and cold as you may believe. I was hurt for her when I read what you wrote. Let’s have a good, healthy debate without throwing stones.
Kelly,
Being raised with those that come from broken and “destitute” backgrounds, makes our hearts keenly aware of God’s mercy, love and forgiveness. I understand what you were saying in how your childhood awareness relates to being an adult unable to be coldhearted to those from a broken past (which we all are, in some way or another).
I started making my comments section registered users only towards the beginning when an “anon” posted at my place with some heated comment. It’s not that I mind a lively discussion, but rather, some form of identifying mark makes things a little less sneaky feeling. It always feels slimy reading anon. comments that are just mean, spiteful and vindictive, without a way to “know” who they are. I really like my blog being calm for the readers, rather than getting a nercous sick feeling. I have been glad to come here and find several horrible comments deleted, because they were just plain mean and rotten and argumentative – not for the sake of discussion, but just to make other’s mad. Thank you for keeping a watchful eye on your blog!
I am not speaking for you or anyone else here, but whenever I read horrible comments made by someone unwilling to identify themselves I always think of the KKK with their masks on. Yeah, it sounds really harsh, but that’s just the image I get. Spouting off a belief but unwilling to show face.
I am not calling anyone a KKK member, just that the fondness for spouting something off without being willing to identify yourself is a similarity in the two situations.
I might say something people don’t like, but they can at least find me at my blog and let me hear all about it.
I keep praying for these people, that their hearts can be softened and they realize that they don’t have to be hateful people spouting of mean things. Most of the responses in return to them are curt, but never mean or ugly. I don’t understand why some people feel the need to go to a place on the internet that only makes them angry and tear the author(ess) down. Lack of things to fill their time, I guess. Prayer, prayer!
Hello again,
I have been sincerely praying and thinking over this topic. I do believe we need to discuss our different points of view in a respectful way. Obviously from my other comments, you know I do not agree with your stance on the church. You have yet to give a specific set of scriptures as I have asked, once, maybe twice, and I know others have as well. I believe the only scripture we need to exemplify why church is to be a place where the saved increase in knowledge of how to live the Christian life, and a place where unbelievers can come and learn of Christ and see their need for a savior, is the great commission in Matthew. The basic premise you have to accept is that all commands of God hold true in any and every situation. For example, pray without ceasing literally means to live in an attitude of prayer. The Great Commission means that every moment of your life is to be used as a testament of Christ, including and never excluding while you are in church (or WalMart, or the bank, etc etc). God will make sure you get the spiritual food you need while you are in Church, even if you are ministering to others while there. I have actually found in my personal life, that I learn more and grow spiritually as I minister to others. It is living my Faith, just as the Bible commands. Limiting this to certain areas is adding to the meaning of the Bible.
I must address the comments on dress in Church. It is like ANY other sin (including Pride in your own perception of your holiness because you choose to be modest). If there are women and girls dressed inappropriately, that is not your concern. Judge not lest you be judged. As for boys and husbands noticing, then that is a sin problem all their own. It is not a sin if you look up as a Man and see a girl dressed inappropriately. You have to look away and avoid willfully looking again. If this means moving to another pew or seat, so be it. You cannot blame the sin of a lustful man on a girl dressed inappropriately. Do husbands and sons go to the store, restaurants, etc.? If they do, it is likely they will face similar or worse temptations there. In which case they have to apply the same judgment and choose not to take a second look or think on the inappropriately dressed woman. It says in the Bible that man will not face any temptation stronger than he can bear. including women dressed in a immodest way. As for your sons, part of training them is including how they should handle temptation. Not shielding them from it completely.
I have to admit that Anon #1 pointed out what has grieved my spirit the most since the middle of last week. Kelly hinted that her theology was “different” than mine. I suppose that is true. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Kelly, you believe that only certain people are able to become saved. Therefore, we don’t have to worry about it, especially in church. If I perceive your theology wrong, then explain more clearly and bluntly.
I will make clear, as I believe I must, that those who consider predestination to be a valid doctrine, have it totally backwards. God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. etc. Therefore, when he chose to send His son to die on the cross for ALL mankind, he new that not everyone, even after understanding the Gospel, would choose to accept the gift of eternal life. He knew exactly who would and who would not. So, even knowing the small minority who would accept His sacrifice on their behalf, he still died for us ALL. That is much different than saying He died for a predestined group (this alternate theory actually insults the depths of His love). My Bible says that Whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life. Not, Whosoever is predestined and believeth on Him. Since we humans are not all knowing, we cannot know who will or will not accept Christ’s gift. So it is our job, in self sacrificing service to our Lord, to tell everyone. In and out of church.
One more comment on the dress issue. Read Colossians 3:12-17. It explains how all Christians are at varying levels of maturity, and it is not our job to condemn each other. Leave the convicting to the Holy Spirit. And by all means, pray for each other!
Jennie,
What’s funny is that I basically agree with everything you said here…except your assertion that a certain doctrine is “backwards”.
I think our major difference lie more in a misunderstanding of theology rather than what we actually believe.
Of course we are to open our church to sinners…I’ve never said otherwise. It’s in our basic understanding of what the church “IS” though, that determines our entire direction of the church.
When church is *geared* for the unbeliever, the whole structure (teaching, etc.) changes. The only point I’ve tried to make is that the church, by its very definition is the body of Christ. (I even googled “definition of the church” and I found the same thing no matter how many sites I looked.) The church is the body of Christ; sinners, “come on in!” But the gathering of saints is the gathering of saints! Paul repeatedly addressed his letters to the church, (the elect of God–oooh, Paul used that word too!) The Scripture you want is everywhere. I can’t list them because they are in essentially every book from Acts to Revelation. Look yourself! *grins*
As for doctrinal differences…I’m afraid you don’t have a clear grasp of predestination. (Guess what? I only became reformed the last 5 years or so, and I thought EXACTLY the same way you did before. But when I learned, I was surprised to find how many misconceptions I had held.)
We do NOT believe that “since God knows evangelism doesn’t matter.” That’s ridiculous. From a human standpoint it may not be, but the interesting thing about our doctrine is that we don’t fully understand it, and must trust God for working it all together. The Bible speaks of man’s free will; it also speaks of predestination and His elect, chosen before the foundations, etc. How do these two work together?
I don’t know! Nor do I have to know. But I do have to be concerned about the lost. I do have to fulfill the Great Commission, every day, just like you said. Why? Because the Bible tells me so.
I would challenge you to really study the books of the Bible that describe the church, their function, responsibility, etc. You may be surprised.
It’s not about keeping anyone out. It’s about understanding how the church came to be in the first place. It is basically a voluntary meeting together of believers.
It is my opinion that if an unrepentant sinner enjoys hanging out at church, something is wrong with that church. Don’t forget, I said *unrepentant*.
In every church that I have attended Sunday morning was always a “salvation” message because that is usually when the unsaved visitors came. Sunday night consists of the “back bone” of the church,and that was usually messages directed to christians. Wednesday night was bible study. So, I think that is a really good approach.
And, BTW Jennie, I am from the “Arminian/Wesleyan/Conditional Security” camp as well. But on the same token, I totally understand where Kelly is coming from.
I see that you still avoid providing a single verse to base your beliefs on. I only believe what I can find in the Bible. I am not disagreeable, merely selectively agreeable, choosing to agree with God’s word first and foremost in every thing.
Specifically, you refer to the word elect. I searched for this word in the King James Bible and found that it is used both in the OT and the NT. It is, as you stated, used by Paul. In the NT I see “elect” and “election” used to refer to those who have placed their faith in Jesus, after they have placed their faith in Jesus they are “elect”. Paul uses the word elect in Romans and many other books to describe those who are saved by faith, and indwelt by the Holy Ghost. Lets look at how Jesus uses the terminology in question. In both Matthew 24 and Mark 13, He is referring to those who are saved. He is speaking of those who will not participate in the Tribulation. No-where does our Savior speak of those who are saved because they are chosen. He always speaks of those who have chosen Him as His elect. One of the best places to study and pray about for understanding of the elect and the purpose of the church is 1 Thes 1. It describes the elect and what the elect did and what results it had. Why would Paul write about all that if he didn’t want readers of his letters to use it as an example of who the elect are, how more became part of the elect and what the elect are supposed to do. In closing, no-where in the NT does it say that some are elected because they are chosen. Taking each verse about the elect in its context reveals clearly that the elect are those who have chosen to follow Jesus and put their faith in Him.
And Katherine, I disagree with your interpretation of Matthew 7:1-4. Judgment is God’s, not ours. Not one of us have spiritually “arrived” and therefore have sin in our lives of some sort we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT judge others for their sin, whatever that may be. here are more verses, just a subset of MANY that deal with this issue
John 8
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Jennie,
I haven’t cited Scripture on “who the church is for” because there is so much of it intertwined, evident to people who know how to study and see the whole counsel. Nevertheless, here are just a few:
“We give thanks to God for you all…knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.”…1 Thess. 1:2-4
The letter continues, as every letter Paul write “to the church”, referring to his bretheren, the elect, those who follow Christ, etc.
“Therefore BRETHEREN,…let us hold fast the confession of our hope…not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together…” Hebrews 10:23
I still think you are asserting that I believe something I do not. These verses only restate what I’ve been saying; primarily “the church” was the group of believers coming together. Not the PURPOSE of the church, the very existence of the church–there would be no church were it not the saints meeting together. Church MEANS the saved!
Again, sinners can come in–but our primary purpose for meeting is worship, fellowship and teaching of believers.
The church was never addressed in any other way except “to the saints”, “to the elect”, etc.
This however does NOT diminish our zeal for reaching the lost! You don’t have to be scared that this stance takes an “I don’t care about the lost” approach…no, no, no!
Jennie; you are saying that “elect” and “election” used to refer to those who have placed their faith in Jesus, after they have placed their faith in Jesus they are “elect”…not before. So are you saying that God was surprised by the person’s salvation and then labled him “elect”? Our sovereign, all knowing, God already knows who is going to be saved and who is not and therefore already knows who the elect are, even who the future elect are! He has chosen them from the foundations of the earth. So to say that we were not elect before we were saved is actually putting it in human terms, because we can’t see or know all so therefore once someone is saved then yes to us they become one of God’s elect. But God already knew that it was going to happen and knew that person was already one of the elect.
Also, on the topic of men and boys struggling with girls who are inappropritely dressed at church. Although I do believe the man/boy needs to always be sheilding their eyes, I do think it is sad that they would have to do that at any church function. I am so frustrated when we are at church and regular attendees/christian girls are dressed inappropriately. It’s a distraction to everyone. Yes maybe we are judging and we need to address that issue in our own hearts, I think churches need to be addressing the modesty topic more often. Carolyn Mahaney has a great little booklet on modesty that I think every girl/women should have. Also, there is a website called tHE Rebulation…They have a great survey that guys answered on modesty. Bottom line, is our soul purpose for living…is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. So everything we do, everything… eat, drink, what we wear, what we say, what we do…everything should glorify God. God is our standard…nothing less.
Kelly, thank you for standing up for the truth. I agree with you, we have become a generation of Christians that settle and allow sin to be swept under the couch so that we don’t offend anyone. Thanks for sharing.
Jennie, I’m a little lost, please help.
Quote: “And Katherine, I disagree with your interpretation of Matthew 7:1-4. Judgment is God’s, not ours. Not one of us have spiritually “arrived” and therefore have sin in our lives of some sort we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT judge others for their sin…” I cannot find what Katherine said regarding Mathew 7: 1-4. Therefore, I can’t adress what she said. It would be much easier if people would quote the other person!
We are all to use judgement everyday. It is a gift from God to be able to discern. How can we “guard our hearts,” or choose “wise council?” Why would we be told “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?” Why would the proverbs tell us to avoid fools, mockers and bad company if we are not allowed to judge who is or isn’t this way since we are sinners?
We can judge (discern) these things *their actions*, but not judge (condemn) their hearts, or motives.
It is an interesting word study to see where “judge” is used in the bible and which greek word is used.
As far as christian immodesty, I (like Kristi,) was one of those distractions at one point. I am reminded of 1 Corinth. 1:23 “But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your’s become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.” Of coarse it is sin, not liberty that would cause them to stumble. I would say that the church needs to address the subject of immodesty as the sin that it is and the stumbling block it becomes for others, and (yes) to address the sin of taking the second look. As Jennie suggested here’s Colosians 3:16 “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” I see Kelly attempting to teach and admonish from scripture (like the one you suggest) and herself being condemned as being judgemental. Maybe we should check the greek? is judgemental (like zealot) a criticism or a compliment in this case?
(((Kelly))) You take a lot of heat!