From Fox News:
“It’s no secret that the majority of Hollywood stars are strong advocates for a woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to terminate a pregnancy, however former “Sports Illustrated” supermodel-turned-entrepreneur-turned-author Kathy Ireland has gone against the grain of the glitterati and spoken out against abortion.
“My entire life I was pro-choice — who was I to tell another woman what she could or couldn’t do with her body? But when I was 18, I became a Christian and I dove into the medical books, I dove into science,” Ireland told Tarts while promoting her insightful new book “Real Solutions for Busy Mom: Your Guide to Success and Sanity.”
“What I read was astounding and I learned that at the moment of conception a new life comes into being. The complete genetic blueprint is there, the DNA is determined, the blood type is determined, the sex is determined, the unique set of fingerprints that nobody has had or ever will have is already there.”
However Ireland admitted that she did everything she could to avoid becoming a believer in pro-life.
“I called Planned Parenthood and begged them to give me their best argument and all they could come up with that it is really just a clump of cells and if you get it early enough it doesn’t even look like a baby. Well, we’re all clumps of cells and the unborn does not look like a baby the same way the baby does not look like a teenager, a teenager does not look like a senior citizen. That unborn baby looks exactly the way human beings are supposed to look at that stage of development. It doesn’t suddenly become a human being at a certain point in time,” Ireland argued. “I’ve also asked leading scientists across our country to please show me some shred of evidence that the unborn is not a human being. I didn’t want to be pro-life, but this is not a woman’s rights issue but a human rights issue.”Ireland also asserted that she believes “no justification is adequate” (for an abortion) unless another the mother’s life is in danger.
“In that instant, your intention is not to kill but to save the life of another. If we’re about to demolish a building we make absolute certain there are no human beings in there before we take a wrecking ball to it, but the unborn doesn’t have a voice so it’s up to us to speak for them,” she added passionately. “If I see someone abusing a child I am going to stand up against that, and that’s how I feel about abortion. Women are not given all the facts, they’re told it is a harmless procedure and now it has turned into such a political football.”
The committed Christian and devoted mother even dedicated the chapter “Faith & Your Family” in her new book to her foundations in Christianity and believes that this is what’s missing from so many American families today.
“You have to figure out your own values and why you have them. People are going to try and push and pull at your convictions, so you have to have boundaries and put them in place,” she said.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, “Judging Amy” star Amy Brenneman has been busy voicing her views as a strong advocate of pro-choice over recent years.
“(My involvement) is really through this feminist majority that I work with and it is a very important issue that’s close to my heart,” Brenneman told Tarts at last week’s Autism Speaks event in Hollywood. “Unless a woman really has sovereignty over her own body we really haven’t come that far.”
I wanted to make a quick response to Brenneman’s statement:
She quotes the SINGLE problem and faulty logic with the pro-choice movement. “Sovereignty over a woman’s own body” is one thing; sovereignty over another person’s life is quite another. They just don’t want to see it, as simple as it is.
64 comments
Excellent post! I heard a little bit of Kathy Ireland speaking about this on FOX News. I think it was the Mike Huckabee program. I give her a lot of credit for standing up for life in the midst of such corrupt media and celebrity.
It’s true that people like Brenneman fail to see that sovereignty over a woman’s own body also takes away the sovereignty of another’s. The baby being murdered doesn’t have a choice in the matter.
Ali
I had an abortion. I was 25-years old. I used the “abortion pill” and I was 4 weeks and 3 days along. Of course since I did have an abortion, I’m pro-choice.
I think, instead of continuing the same old debate, you should hear my story and the stories of others that have had abortions.
I’m a single mother already to one son. I had just lost my job and started a new job as a waitress when I found out I was pregnant.
The man instantly wanted an abortion and so did I. There really wasn’t another option. My son is 6-years old and I STILL have family members
call me a whore for getting pregnant. There is a lot of tension in my family. None of us have secure jobs. My state’s unemployment rate
is over 10%. There is no security. It would have devastated my parents for me to have another child. My son would have been hurt and confused to
have a sibling and then it go to live with another family. Keeping it wasn’t an option at all. There is no way. Funds for
social services are drying up. I have no health insurance. I need a lot of dental work. I barely make my bills monthly. The list of reasons why me being pregnant is a bad idea
goes on and on…
You can be against abortion all you want. But you aren’t the one that will have to pay our
bills if we continue with our pregnancies. You aren’t the ones that will watch our kids when
are recovering from the birth. You aren’t the ones that have to live our lives every single day.
It is a total myth that there are so many parents that want to adopt. There are about half a million in foster care that can be adopted and many more looking
for permanent placements in homes. Go to adoptuskids.org is you don’t believe me. So please don’t use that excuse. Also adoption doesn’t solve the problem when being pregnant is the problem!
Yes, an embryo has human DNA. So does my hair. I value life. That is why I had to think about my son and myself in my situation. It would have been selfish to
bring another person into the world when I can’t even take care of my son and myself now.
I know this won’t make you pro-choice. But hopefully it can give you a glimise of the other side.
I have already been called every name in the book by the pro-life side, so what ever you dish out to me I can take.
Dear Ashley – you’re wrong. Sorry, I don’t have anything to dish out, except that. If you would like for me to dispute your argument, point by point, I will, but I know only God can change a heart. Just like he is the only one who can create a heart.
There is no other side. You are a woman, gifted with fertility, and you value yourself less than God does. I am not unlike you, in different circumstances, but that’s the truth of the matter.
As a follower of Christ, I will tell you that anyone who calls you a whore is not your family. It’s no different than someone who hits you and then claims to love you. A person who participates in your child’s conception and wants an abortion is no “man”. And may I invite you, in your best interest, to avoid future promiscuity until you at least can care for yourself? Avoiding the heartbreak of your situation starts with acknowleging that pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex.
I don’t have “excuses” as you put it – I don’t know why so many children are treated badly by their own “parents”, and then left to languish in foster care. What I do know is that it is lazy and wrong-minded to use other people’s bad behavior as an excuse for my own.
That’s it. Deep, abiding, love in Christ, and tears, with you and for you.
Ashley- First of all, just because you’ve had an abortion, that doesn’t necessarily make you “pro-choice.” I have known women (and men) who have participated in abortions or had them performed and are now pro-life. Clearly, from what else you have said, you ARE pro-choice, but I’m just offering, that there is no need to pigeon-hole yourself. (It seems like, from what you’ve said, that you’ve been pigeon-holed enough by your family members and others.)
I do not wish to call you names or berate you. I understand that there are serious implications that come with a pregnancy. Medical and hospital bills are attrocious; I believe that our country–and in particular the pro-life community–needs to speak out about changing this! It is unacceptable that insurance companies consider pregnancy a “pre-existing condition” and can refuse to cover care!! I could rant forever, but I won’t. My husband and I also have a number of adopted family members (including three domestic), and I understand that it is not easy in this country to adopt. Foster care horror stories abound–and it is VERY hard for foster parents to adopt children in their care. I am not unsympathetic to what you have said.
However, what I think you are not understanding is that life is being taken. Perhaps you do not agree that a 4.5 week old baby is, in fact, a human being. I lost a baby at 5.5 weeks gestation, and I grieved for that baby as though I had already held him or her in my arms. At 6 weeks, I watched my son’s hearbeat on ultrasound. I am not saying your are callous or hateful, but I do think that many women in our culture are uninformed about what a baby IS. I can find no medical evidence that, post implantation, a baby can be considered anything but a baby. To compare an unborn child to your hair makes no sense to me. Would you compare your born child to your hair? Certainly not.
But, consider, that it was your choice to have sexual relations. Does it therefore equate that you have the choice to destroy the natural consequences of that sexual act: a human child? I may wish I could have certain things that I can no longer have because I am a mother. Does that mean I should be allowed to abandon or murder my daughter? I resonate with what Kathy Ireland said, “If I saw a child being abused, I would stand up for that child; that is what I see when I see abortion.”
Remember that in other times and places, it was permissible to kill other people because they were not seen as fully human (women, Jews, Tutsis, African Americans). If we do not value ALL life–even lives that some people would like to believe are not worth anything or are less than human–where do we draw the line? With an unborn child, where do we draw the line? Is it the beginning formation of the brain (5 weeks gestation), or the heartbeat (6 weeks gestation), or implantation (before a pregnancy test could even DETECT a pregnancy? What arbitrary line in the sand do we draw? Why not consider, as the Romans did, that our children are not actually human beings until they are a year old, so that we can dispose of the ones that are “defective” without guilt?
Ashley, it seems to me that you are very defensive about your past choices. I can understand that. It sounds like you were not met with much support or comfort from your family at a time when you probably needed a great deal of support. I am sorry for that. Know that my heart and sympathies do go out to you. But, they also go out to your child. You are both precious children of God; I cannot say that one of your lives was more precious than the other. It is not a matter of saying, “The woman is not important.” She is infinitely important–you are infinitely important! But, so was your unborn child.
Blessings,
Bethany
Ashley,
I won’t say most of what I was going to because Bethany and Rachael said it so well–right along the lines I was thinking.
Most of us who are pro-choice are not angry, ready-to-call-names women; we sympathize greatly with hurting women. We are not against you; we are against the concept that anyone has a right to take a life, regardless of how inconvenient. (As Bethany said, it’s a slippery slope; suppose one of my children gets really sick and costs us a fortune in time and money–do I say, “I have no choice but to kill her”?)
That’s the only point we want people to understand. Being in hard situations is, well, HARD. But taking life is never the right answer.
What you did you can be forgiven for!!! AND, as Bethany said, you could choose to even be pro-life, with perhaps a stronger influence than many who haven’t been through in situation.
Again, the crux of the big picture (not to point a personal finger at you) is that certain actions have certain consequences. If those consequences are hard or inconvenient, they must be dealt with…but not at the expense of taking a life.
And don’t forget, you are treasured by your Creator.
“Dear Ashley – you’re wrong”
I would like you to explain point-by-point. Otherwise how will I know which parts you take issue with?
Bethany,
I looked up pictures of what an embryo at 4 to 5 weeks looks like. I looked at the ultrasound at the clinic. I wanted very much to know exactly what I was doing. I completely understand that an embryo is alive. An embryo is not equal to the people that are already born.
“it seems to me that you are very defensive about your past choices.”
Why would you think that? I only get called a “murderer”, “whore” and “baby killer” routinely by the anti-abortion/pro-life crowd….
Btw, I didn’t compare and embryo to hair. I said both have DNA- which is true.
“The baby being murdered doesn’t have a choice in the matter.”
Do you really think abortion is the same as going to a school and taking the life of a child? Do you really think we belong in prison for abortion? I mean, before you say murder, think about it.
“Again, the crux of the big picture (not to point a personal finger at you) is that certain actions have certain consequences. ”
That is a very good point. I should have NEVER had unprotected sex! However you make choices based on what you did- not what you should have done.
Virtual applause Bethany!
Ashley,
I don’t know how long you have been reading this blog, but if it has been for any length of time, you would know that Kelly and some of her readers, such as myself, were in your position and made a different “choice”.
“Why not consider, as the Romans did, that our children are not actually human beings until they are a year old, so that we can dispose of the ones that are “defective” without guilt?”
I read in Family Driven Faith about a fellow from Princeton who says that a parent should be legally allowed to murder their children until they are able to care for themselves at the age of 2 or 3.
Such a slippery slope.
I guess since the evolution fueled humanistic reasoning of the day allows for “survival of the fittest” it will be a wonder if the dwindling population will contain any children or elderly people.
Good for Ms. Ireland!
The “slippery slope” theory doesn’t work because it doesn’t go both ways. Example, you want abortion illegal, so how about all medications that could cause a miscarriage? I don’t think you want that. And people that support abortion rights don’t want people the murder 2 and 3 year olds.
Ashley,
I don’t see your example as a rebuttal to the slippery slope…most doctors check for pregnancy before prescribing such medications. I’m confused about how that example nullifies the slippery slope concept.
The slippery slope is a FACT–we’re already seeing it. At first, abortions were only legal until a certain gestation; then that was prolonged; now partial birth abortions, and now euthanasia..it just keeps going.
And really, the slippery slope analogy is still irrelevant to the basic thing–we must maintain the absolute truth that it is wrong to strategically take an innocent human life.
Ashley, God loves you. He sees your needs. He WILL NOT forget you if you trust in Him. I encourage you to go to your local crisis pregnancy center and let them know your needs should you ever find yourself in the same situation.
He loves you, He loves you, He loves you.
“most doctors check for pregnancy before prescribing such medications.”
You can’t get pregnant while on medication???
“And people that support abortion rights don’t want people the murder 2 and 3 year olds.”
p.79 Family Driven Faith, Voddie Bauchum writes:
Peter Singer, a renowned bioethicist at Princeton University, argues that abortion should be legal prior to “personhood.” What makes this shocking is that Singer’s definition of personhood would carry the abortion question not into the second or third trimester of a pregnancy but into the second year after birth. That’s right, by Singer’s definition my thirteen-month-old son (due to the fact that he cannot communicate or sustain his own life without help) has not yet reached personhood, and to take his life now would be no more problematic than a pre-birth abortion.
While this is shocking, I must ask a question: What is the difference between my thirteen-month-old son and a six-month-old fetus? The answer is, location. If it is acceptable to kill a child in the womb, it is also acceptable to do so outside the womb. Peter Singer is not being morbid; he is being consistent. The only difference between him and many Christians who take a pro-choice stance in the abortion debate is the coherence of his view of man.
Quinn–If we’re going to “go there”, what is the difference between a 6 month old fetus and my friend’s 60-year-old brother who has never been able to speak, clothe or feed himself, or even sit up of his own accord? Should he be “disposed of”?
~Bethany
Mom Blogs – Blogs for Moms…
…
Ashley,
Please remember as we debate, this is about a principle, not about pointing a finger at you–there are many women reading who have probably had abortions. So while the tendency is to take the defense of pro-life personally, I hope you can understand that we fight for children, not against women, if that makes sense.
You asked, “Do you really think abortion is the same as going to a school and taking the life of a child?” Our answer is YES.
It might not FEEL the same, because we can’t see the child, but a life is a life, whether one is hidden inside the womb or not. Why does concealment change everything?
Also, about the medications that cause abortion…not sure what that has to do with proving abortion is OK. I don’t know of many necessary meds that cause abortion, but even if there are, again, doesn’t justify abortion.
Dear Ashley,
I do not write to condemn you in any way. My heart breaks for you; I’m heartbroken that you felt that you had no other options. As you write:
“Keeping it wasn’t an option at all. There is no way. Funds for social services are drying up. I have no health insurance. I need a lot of dental work. I barely make my bills monthly. The list of reasons why me being pregnant is a bad idea
goes on and on…”
If I may make one observation, it’s that the reasons you’ve given for your pregnancy being a bad idea are circumstantial. My question for you is, if you’d had the resources (financial and otherwise) to support another child, would you have opted to continue with your pregnancy? Circumstances change – but absolute truths and rights aren’t contingent on personal situations. The child’s right to existence doesn’t change, regardless of circumstance.
Yes, it’s true – both my hair and a small baby have DNA. But my hair, whether I pluck it out or it’s on my head – that hair is not human life. The skin cells on my body cannot become human life. There is a difference between a baby – even at the moment of conception, when cells are beginning to divide so quickly – and normal cells. Normal cells don’t have the ability to become persons (I recognize that, via scientific manipulation, cloning is possible – I am not addressing this. Those cells do not divide as normal cells; they don’t have the “spark,” if you will, that manifests as human life.) Abortion removes that spark. Abortion takes what would eventually be born alive, and destroys it. That child could be a normal schoolchild. That “fetus,” if you will, could be born alive. At just a few weeks, that baby has a heart, a brain, all of the appendages that characterize a human. If this being in the womb is not human – how could I claim to be? This new creature, this boy or girl, has as much claim to the right to life as I do – sitting here, typing.
I believe your post shows why the pro-life community has so much work to do. I am involved with knitting baby clothes and blankets for babies born to impoverished families. We all have to support women who find themselves in your shoes – pregnant and feeling hopeless. We all have to do a better job.
It is my prayer and fervent wish that you and your child are blessed by God and that He protects you every day. We could go back and forth all day long on this – whether a “clump of cells,” as many abortion clinics will call a child of several weeks, deserves the same rights as human who has already exited the womb. But I would ask you to consider: circumstances don’t change truths, children are precious from the moment of conception, and God loves each of us, regardless of our past histories and personal problems.
In Christ,
Luci
What it comes down to is that God is the author of all creation. Without Him, there is no life. If we accept abortion, then we are, in effect, telling God that He is wrong and that He didn’t know what He was doing when He created that life.
Jesus Christ did a very hard thing when He died for us. He didn’t have to do it. He chose to do it because He loves us. He asks us to face many difficult situations in life. Having a child is not easy. It is a lot of responsibility. But that does not excuse abortion.
Ashley,
I want to reiterate what others have said. God loves you. I do not want this to seem like an attack. That is not my intention. I do believe is speaking truth.
It sounds like the choice you made was made in fear. You were scared what your family would say, you were scared that you would not be able to take care of another child, you were scared that you would have to explain to your first child why you had to give up another child for adoption. You had a right to be scared because you were in a hard situation. But to say you had no choice? That is not true. We all have a choice.
“It would have been selfish to
bring another person into the world when I can’t even take care of my son and myself now.”
I believe it would have taken a great sacrifice to have your child. It would have been the least selfish thing you could have done.
Comment not posting again
Quinn–AGHHH!!! I completely don’t understand why comments are randomly not posting…I’ll see if I can talk to someone who does–sorry! Keep trying!
The page is reloading at the top instead of at the bottom displaying my comment. Tells me duplicate comment if I repost it. Don’t know if that will help you.
Ashley – You said, “I completely understand that an embryo is alive. An embryo is not equal to the people that are already born.” If I may play the Devil’s Advocate with you on this: WHY? I am truly at a loss as to how you would distinguish between the two.
~Bethany
Quinn,
If you’ll email me your comment, I’ll post it with your name.
Ashley,
I normally would not post this so openly but I think you need to hear it.
I have had an abortion also. I know from my perspective it is hard for those who have never had an abortion to fully understand what I went through as well as what I still go through. I am sure you feel the same. But, I am NOT pro-choice. I was at one time but praise the Lord He showed me the truth and I ache daily for the decisions I made.
You say you had no choice. That is a lie you are feeding yourself. You did have a choice just as I did. You could have chosen to not have sex out of wedlock. You could have chosen to give life and trusted fully in God to provide for ALL your needs as well as your children’s needs. You could have trusted fully in God in that He would have fully covered you with His mercy and grace to get you through the hard times with family.
Also your statements concerning adoption are completely untrue. My abortion was not my first pregnancy. I also had a child that I gave up for adoption prior to that. The stats you are looking at are for children who are pulled out homes due to abuse or neglect. Finding a family to adopt an infant is actually quite easy as people would flood you with requests if they knew that a sweet blessing needed a home.
As for saying your son would not understand. How do you think he will feel when he grows up and realizes that he was part of the reason you killed his younger sibling.
I am sorry if this seems harsh but nothing rubs me the wrong way than women lying to themselves to make their bad decisions seem OK.
And remember, I have been in your shoes and know full well what you experienced.
Hi, again, Ashley – I wanted to formulate an answer, rather than a lecture, in response to your question, about why “you’re wrong”. I hold the position that all the grim imagery and pious speeches in the world will not change one single heart for the good. They inflame, but ultimately do not inform. As an example, I do not need to view the photos of the victims of slaughter in Darfur to know that those lives were stolen. Their lives were devalued, deemed less by political and activist beings. It is no different for the mothers and children of abortion. They are devalued, deemed less by political and activist beings. I’m not sure I’m fully equipped to explain anything beyond what I’ve personally experienced, but you said you’d like to know my arguments against your “choice”, so here we go –
First, “pro-choice” is the title of an advertising campaign. Really, I’m not kidding. It’s an invented, contrived (sadly, by women, for women) business model that lines the pockets of doctors, study groups, social engineering interests (including Planned Parenthood and most insurance companies), and a contingent of eugenicists who define worthiness by a distorted notion of Darwinian “fitness”. It’s an industry, there’s nothing “non-profit” about it. It has survived on fear, deception, and downright evil intent. As do all holocausts.
There is a dichotomy at work for which there is no relief, other than to recognize it….there is no such thing as “pro-choice” – there is only pro-life, or pro-death. If you choose abortion, you have chosen death. Sounds harsh, it is harsh – hence the need for the pro-choice ad campaign – soft sell (here is where I would LOVE to share with you my own experience of redemption, through Christ, if you would ever like to know – choosing death is not a permanent state of the heart).
There is no legitimate argument to be made with regard to physical circumstances. The stigma of single motherhood no longer exists, for better or worse, and social services are hardly drying up (another discussion, for another day). If you need help with that area, please email me. I would be happy to help you get whatever information you need in order to provide stability for your family.
I hope I’ve been clear – I don’t think there is any benefit in being ugly or preachy, nor in being less than truthful, if it’s for the well being of all concerned. Please forgive me if I was any of those things. One thing I would ask of you, is please realize that the women you’ve met on Generation Cedar’s blog have hearts for Christ, and most are wives and mothers. Baiting for baiting’s sake isn’t worthy of time taken from any of our children, including your own. If an argument is all you’re after, I hope you’ll understand that I won’t reply. Not to mention, this is another gal’s spot, and I talk A LOT here already. I answered your question out of genuine concern. I hope it’s taken in the spirit intended. Love, love, love, fully, whole-heartedly, and hope we’ll speak again, in Christ.
The irony of it all is that abortion shouldn’t be called pro choice because most women who have it performed feel they have NO CHOICE in the matter. Planned Parenthood generates that lie. If they really cared, they would channel the funds used for abortion to make it easier to adopt. Then everyone would win: the adoptive parents, the babies, and the babies’ mothers.
Ashley I agree with everyone else, and I offer you hope in Jesus.
There is no legitimate argument to be made with regard to physical circumstances. The stigma of single motherhood no longer exists, for better or worse, and social services are hardly drying up (another discussion, for another day). If you need help with that area, please email me. I would be happy to help you get whatever information you need in order to provide stability for your family.
Hmmm. Isn’t that SOCIALISM? 😉
Shanna,I am so happy you posted you said exactly the things I have been thinking sense I read this post earlier today.While I have never had an abortion I spent many years convinced that a child would be a burden.I thank God often for sparing me the heartache I could have brought upon myself.I have had three losses and have been blessed with five wonderful children so far. I wonder how many blessings I denied myself while I was beliving santans lies.Ashley,I just want you to know my attitude about children was just as ugly and sinful as an abortion.God has forgiven me and blessed me.People who new me before often tell me they see Gods power when they see my relationship with my children.I know God has a great plan for your life to.
“My question for you is, if you’d had the resources (financial and otherwise) to support another child, would you have opted to continue with your pregnancy?
Yes actually I love children. But that doesn’t take over my common sense. Unless I when the lottery, my situation isn’t changing.
There are too many post here for me to response to. But I take serious issue with Janie. I know, for a fact, that you are wrong. Funds for social services are drying up. There is a waiting list of services that I would need like day care. I can’t get dental help. And I’m on a waiting list for a clinic. That is the honest to God truth right there.
And OMG yes there is a stigma against single mothers. I have experienced first hand for the past 6 years. It was one of the main reasons I had an abortion!
It truly angers me that you have buried your head in the sand on this issue.
BTW Cottage Child, Adoption is an industry too. Lawyers, advertivers and agencies profit from it. But that doesn’t stop you from supporting that does it?
Ashley,
With all due respect, and again, my only intent is to change your heart NOW, not condemn what you did…
You keep listing all the reasons why you chose to take a life. They are hard things. Money, stigma, pressure, etc…
But there is NEVER ever a reason good enough to take a life–period. List every one–none justifies killing a child.
If so, then I can justify killing my husband if I can come up with a good enough reason; or one of my children, or my relatives, or a neighbor (before or after one is born–it’s still a life)–hard circumstances can not be what determines our truth or we have ourselves a HUGE mess as a society!!!
Truth must come first…killing innocent life is always wrong. Then we make our decisions from there.
When I discovered I was pregnant at the age of 20, unmarried, I was devastated. For a number of reasons, including several you have mentioned. Not only that, but my parents were in full time ministry with “troubled children” (ha!) So I had helped mar their reputation as well as my own.
But you know…despite the fact I was already living in sin, I held the solid belief that abortion would be wrong. With that settled, it mattered little about reputations, finances, shattered goals and dreams, etc. Yes, my life changed. Things were hard. I came through, and praise God He turned it all around for the greatest blessing of my life.
My point again, circumstances cannot determine what truth is. Truth must remain; if we bring hardship on ourselves, we must deal with it, however painful.
Praying you’ll find truth and become an encourager to other women!
(For some reason, some readers are having trouble commenting on this thread…I don’t know why and I apologize. This comment is from Misty):
“Ashley,
You are a brave girl to speak out on this topic. Hats off to you.
As it has been stated, this is not about condemning you, specifically.
Many of us reading Kelly’s blog do not accept financial difficulty as a legitimate excuse for aborting a life. Many of Kelly’s readers are accustomed to giving birth under extremely difficult financial challenges, and we continue to do it more then once! We even choose to continue to receive children under emotional hardships and a whole host of challenges and imperfect conditions. If you read Kelly’s past posts, she shares freely on how she chose life under many hardships that are not unlike what you have described.
Point is that we are no strangers to the pressures that you and others are experiencing which is EXACTLY WHY we are SO passionately against the right to choose abortion. We have experienced FIRST HAND that when you do the right thing the Lord honors and provides. You say, it was impossible to have the baby, but don’t you know that with God ALL things are possible. He takes care of His people. With His help, we take the harder road and He leads us to brighter pastures every time!
From our vantage point, we see that these women are missing out on a blessing and it grieves us. It is God’s specialty to take the most dreadful circumstances only to turn them into something wonderful for all.
Even under your conditions before you conceived, you and your son could not survive if it were not for God’s grace and provision. He loves you both passionately!!!
An idea: The next time you find yourself in a crisis situation of some sort (thankfully not an unwanted pregnancy now that you are aware that you should abstain until your situation improves through a marriage) and chances there will be a next time, do something unusual– seek God’s direction. His way are not our ways, they are much better!
Many blessings,
Misty
“List every one–none justifies killing a child”
Do you really believe I am the same as someone who killed a child? If I killed I child then I’m a murderer. If I’m a murderer I belong in prison, right? Do you honestly believe that abortion is no different than going to school and killing a child?
A child is not the same as an embryo.
You guys can brag about all the difficult situations you have given birth in. Kudos to you. Have a cookie. Do you want me to admit your better than me? Ok, fine I’ll say your better than me.
Just because you did something doesn’t mean everyone can or should. It doesn’t even mean what you did was the right thing. You aren’t going to live my life. You aren’t going to pay my bills. You aren’t going to deal with my family. That is why it isn’t your decision what I or anyone else do.
It also irks me that bad information is being given here. Like that there isn’t a stigma against single mothers and that social services funds aren’t drying up. It just proves to me that you guys don’t know what we go through!
Ashley,
“A child is not the same as an embryo”…
Yes it is. And yes, the hard truth is that I do believe abortion is murder.
“It also irks me that bad information is being given here. Like that there isn’t a stigma against single mothers and that social services funds aren’t drying up.”
Even though these things are still totally irrelevant to making the decision to take a life, I’m fully aware there is some of a stigma against single mothers (I was one). But I promise you it’s NOTHING like it used to be.
Social services? Not a big fan anymore; but, if you pursue it, it’s there–I know lots of people on it right now, and I used Medicaid when I was pregnant–hardly had to fill out a paper.
Ashley,
Just because you made a bad decision in your past doesn’t mean you have to keep justifying it. I know it would be hard to come to terms with the cold truth…but that would be better than continuing to tell yourself (“it’s not the same”)…
Scripture says:
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
The Creator of life determines when it begins, and if He says life is life in the womb, we can’t argue.
Prayed for you this morning…I know you are hurting.
I was on Medicaid for my first pregnancy. I also got day care vouchers. However both programs have been cut- I couldn’t even get emergency dental help! Daycare and public housing are on wait lists. Without day care help your screwed as single parent. I know you don’t think that justifies ending a pregnancy, but people still shouldn’t spread lies.
I think what it comes down to is you see an embryo as a child and value it the same as people that are already born and I (and most people) don’t.
I hope that by sharing my story the readers of this blog can better understand where women who have abortions are coming from.
Oh, Ashley. Wasn’t imply that my ways are better than yours, but that only God’s ways are better than our.
Ashley,
Not sure if you have seen this, but I would encourage you to watch this video (there’s a second part afterwards…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ
It’s a testimony from a lady who SURVIVED an abortion.
The reality is, no matter how you slice it, that life is perpetual. A human is not MORE human at any stage of his development. An embryo is still a person. And yes, MOST people do understand this, maybe just aren’t willing to admit it because it is so uncomfortable.
Ending a life is ending a life–not matter when it was ended. But that’s where our conversation stops, because until the light of truth has been shed in your heart, you will not see it.
Word Warrior, do you think that women who have abortions should be tried for murder?
I think I answer for many pro-life people when I say we don’t want to see women who have had abortions tried for murder. Most have made their choice to end their child’s life with consent of the governmant. Since the government is the body that conducts trials and earthly “justice” it would be silly to suggest such a thing. What they have done is “legal”. However, just because it is legal does not make it “right”.
That being said, God’s justice is not the same as our earthly justice. His standards for right and wrong are higher than ours. In his eyes we are all sinners. Anyone who has ever felt hatred toward anyone is a “murder” in his eyes. That is why Jesus died, to erase our sins and declare us “not quilty”, if only we would let him.
Ashely- I’d like to restate my previous question, because it seems to be coming up again, and I am truly interested in your answer:
Why do you believe an embryo is different than a born child? Do you believe an embryo is different from a fetus? Do you believe a person with severe disabilities and is unable to care for themselves is different from a capable adult? How do we decide who is “more human”? You see, this is a very important point to me because genocides have always occurred when we decided that some humans were more or less “human” than others and therefore more worthy of life. This is how I view abortion: it is a genocide of the unborn. I do equate destruction of an embryo with the killing of a born child–or a born adult or whomever. I also understand that the vast majority of pro-choice people do not view the embryo as a person. But, I must reiterate: Adloph Eichmann did not consider the murder of Jews to be murder, because he did not understand the Jews to be human. Does that mean he should not have been tried and convicted of his crimes? Who decides who has the right to life? In my book, the only answer can be God Himself.
~Bethany
Luanne,
I would second what Rachel said…the fact that many women have been lied to about life–when it begins, etc., probably puts many of them in a “crime by ignorance” category (that’s not meant to be insulting.)
However, do I believe abortion should be a crime? Yes. Scores of women are in jail right now because they took the life of a newborn, still attached to the cord.
It is ludicrous to say that is a crime, but having a doctor do it inside the womb is not.
Luanne…one more thought, it may be more reasonable to suggest the doctors performing abortions should be tried for murder, if anyone. Because they DO know the truth.
And I expect the capital punishment question…that’s a whole different debate and has nothing to do with taking an innocent life.
Another thing to mention regarding prosecution is habeus corpus. Any woman who has had a legal abortion since Roe v. Wade is immune from prosecution. Particularly since so much our culture convinces these women that they are merely removing something akin to a cyst rather than destroying human life, all the more reason that they cannot be prosecuted for abortions during this time period. However, in the past, women and abortionists have been tried for premeditated murder, and if our laws reflected an unborn child to be considered a citizen, I don’t know how we could do otherwise than consider abortion as a crime.
~Bethany
As a nation we uphold abortion as legal and acceptable, but when an expectant mother is murdered, the killer is usually charged with two counts. The baby is considered a murdered victim as well.
We are so double-minded sometimes! ERK!!!
Speaking on financial hardships…
This can not be used as an excuse to destroy life. Let me tell you about a dear friend of mine who is truly an encouragement to me.
Her and her husband have 9 children. He makes $13/hr and actually has spent the last 3 months unemployed due to a layoff. Praise the Lord he just received a new job 2 weeks ago. But, they have not once taken any sort of welfare check even though they surely fall within the eligible state. They do not even accept Medicaid for their pregnancies or their children.
But, what is even more wonderful than seeing them have faith in the Lord. Is seeing the Lord provide each and every time they have needed it. When a child has been hurt or sick God has either provided healing through His herbs or the money to get further help from doctors as needed. When they don’t have enough food or gas money the Lord always provides to them in some way. It is truly amazing to watch Him work.
Is it easy on them? Are they holier than thou? It is neither. They will fully admit that they are sinners and even sometimes wonder why God has chosen them for this path. But, they remain faithful in their convictions and the Lord blesses them for that.
I thought we are all born with sin? Are we really innocent then?
FROM SHANNA,
Ashely,
You seem to have totally missed my post because I have been there and no matter what you say your logic flawed.
Also, you keep saying you wish people would stop spreading lies. But, you yourself have given your own when you said in your post
“I was on Medicaid for my first pregnancy. I also got day care vouchers. However both programs have been cut- I couldn’t even get emergency dental help! Daycare and public housing are on wait lists. Without day care help your screwed as single parent. I know you don’t think that justifies ending a pregnancy, but people still shouldn’t spread lies.”
There is not one state in the nation where medicaid has been cut out. You may make too much money but it has not been cut. Also, depending on where you live you can go to any dental college and get dental treatment. I would also bet (if I thought it was OK) that if you searched you could have found another mother or even a grandmother (not your own) who would have been more than happy to help with day care. Call any church and ask. They would know of women who would be happy to minister to you in this way.
I am sorry but NOTHING you will say will make what you did OK or right. I could sit here all day and tell you all the reason why I had an abortion (I was told that I would be kicked out of my home and that my family would have nothing to do with me. Plus much much more!!!!) NONE of that makes having that abortion OK or right.
BTW, I went on to have another pregnancy out of wedlock (Yes, I was in deep sin.) and refused to tell anyone till it was pass the time I could legally get an abortion because I refused to take another life. Today he is a wonderful 14 yr old godly son that my husband and I are so thankful that the Lord chose us to be his parents. To make it even better my husband is not our sons biological father.
Nothing any of us say here will change you. Unless you know the Lord and His ever forgiving grace and love until then it falls on deaf ears. I will be praying for you.
Luanne- That depends on who you are asking. Some Christians do not believe that we are born sinful. I am Catholic, so I believe in the doctrine of Original Sin. However, even Christians who believe in Original Sin understand this as inheritted sin, not committed sin, and it is understood to be very different than committed sin. Original Sin is basically the concept that we are all born “not holy”, in other words “not God.” So, we are born “not holy” but we are still born “innocent” because have never COMMITTED sin. Does that make sense?
~Bethany
Shanna-
I am praising the Lord with you for you 14 year old son. THAT is the blessing that so many mom’s are rejecting and destroying. And, I am sure he is the reason you are now vehemently against your past decisions.
Your testimony is incredible!
THANK YOU FOR SHARING IT WITH US!!!!
You help us all to stand stronger!
I didn’t say “cut totally out”, I said “cut”- meaning there are less funds. Sorry for the confusion. Nothing I said here was a lie.
It comes down to when you believe “personhood” starts. We just disagree. But there are no flaws in my logic. I gave you my story and explained the reason why, despite liking children, I decided not to continue with my pregnancy.
Bethany,
I’m not sure where you are going with your questions. Yes, of course an embyro and fetus are different than a child. They all have DNA, but so do sperm and eggs.
Ashley,
Doesn’t it make a difference that a sperm doesn’t turn into a life by itself, nor does an egg. But once the two are joined, LIFE is written–in every way…sex, hair color, etc.
A fertilized embryo can’t be compared to a sperm or an egg–they aren’t the same.
So how are the embryo and child different? In what specific ways?
Oops… I didn’t mean *if* you will accept His gifts… He loves you regardless. But he will provide if you will accept is what I meant. Sorry about that.
I don’t understand how anyone can say they are different…especially since there have been those that survived abortions and live to tell about it.
Sperm, egg, embryo, fetus, infant…
“Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, [Even] the days that were ordained [for me], When as yet there was none of them.” Ps. 139:16 ASV
Let us start where life REALLY begins:
“ORDAINED”, book-bound CONCEPT, egg, sperm, embryo, fetus, infant…
Ashley, I’m not trying to “go anywhere” with my question. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. I meant exactly what I said. I never said that an embryo was like a child because it had DNA–my dog’s fleas have DNA. What I meant was the an embryo is a very YOUNG version of a child, just as a baby is a very young version of an adult, a teenager is a young version of an elderly person. How would you differentiate between the two? How do you define WHEN somone becomes “human”? Because when we’re considering embryos and fetuses, it is simply a matter of “when” they will become babies, not if. A human embryo is not going to become something else. Certainly, an embryo may die and not survive to birth, but similarly, a child may die and not survive to adulthood. No one would deny the personhood of a six year old child who died of a disease or complication. I do not see the difference between this and my child who died at 5.5 weeks gestation, or a child who is aborted. It’s still a child. An embryo isn’t going to become a foot or a hand…or a flea. It isn’t going to become anything “non-human.” It’s going to continue developing as a human. So, how do you differentiate? At what point do YOU think someone becomes human? Is it a hearbeat? Is it the ability to care for oneself? Is it the power of speech or free thought? How do you decide who is human and who is not?
~Bethany
I am not claiming to speak for Ashley, but I will answer this question as someone who is pro choice Why do you believe an embryo is different than a born child?
The difference I believe is their ability to sustain themselves outside the womb. Not necessarily the ability to be able to hunt their own food, etc. But to be developed enough to have the ability to breathe and be fed without the help of the mother’s body.
Now what I am most discourage about is that all of you equal pro-choice with abortion. Pro-choice is not about abortion, it is about the ability to chose for oneself what ever their circumstances and beliefs may be.
Noemi,
You just stepped off ontoa slippery slope, though. Many full-grown adults find themselves in illnessess/injuries that permit them from being able to breathe/eat without outside assistance. What now? Does someone else now decide if their life is “viable” enough to keep from being taken?
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed here for being kind and not ugly. This is a beautiful discussion, without any hurtful words, which is is so unusual when it comes to this subject. Blessings to all of you as you continue to grow in the Lord!
I enjoyed reading this discussion even though parts of it saddened me, I think some great points have been made – essp. Bethany Hudson! Great questions.
I think to be pro-life is to have the greatest choices available; the choice to abstain, the choice to follow God, and the choice to not stand in the way of any life He wants to bring about through me within the bounds our marriage union.
I hurt for people, because I see how they could believe the lies. There are so many! I have many choices I can legally make by law – but the option to stop someone else’s beating heart? No matter how tiny, I tremble at the thought. I don’t dare make such a choice! What power we hold in our hands and our bodies, what choices we can use for good and evil ….
Just musings from a different ‘Ashley’. 😉
Word Warrior,
Now that is a whole different ball park all together. They are adults and have already participated life and society. A clump of cells is entirely different from a full grown human adult or even an infant fully developed enough to be capable of such things.
Noemi,
Well, bad news…very few women EVER know they are pregnant when the baby is still “a clump of cells”, (if aborting at that time would make one feel better–because for the record, that is still a human being formed/killed, not a lifeless “clump”)…
Most women are at least 4-6 weeks at the earliest before they even know they’re pregnant–a time when that clump of cells, apparently so easy to reconcile the destruction of, is now a tiny little, fully-formed baby with hands, feet, brain, heart beat, etc.
And sadly, more often than not, abortions are performed much later, often when the baby may even be able to live outside the womb.
Very bad logic.
Noemi,
I read on your blog that you’re 21 years old…I pray that your education “abroad” would help you understand the dire mistake in thinking that life is disposable, that “a clump of cells” is not a person in the making, and that you would one day fully come to embrace the sanctity of life…it could depend on how people value US…you mentioned there was a “big” difference in a helpless infant in the womb and a helpless adult…well that difference is shrinking if you’ll do a little study on euthansia that is gaining popularity around the world. It’s a slippery slope–don’t ever forget that compromising the truth has no end.