I get these comments from time to time, from someone who has obviously been indoctrinated by feminists thinking, and they are so adamant, and so sure that I’m absolutely crazy, and stuck in the dark ages, and who knows what else.
And it makes me sad. For one, they always have this picture–very different from what I’ve tried to communicate about women’s roles. And if it weren’t so sad, it’d be funny. It’s complete irony, from my point of view.
This comment for example:
“I need to be my own person before I can become part of a union with another,and at no point will I become a submissive wife. I might be a stay-at-home mom,I might have a wonderful career and no family, or if I marry, whomever I marry could stay at home. Instead of telling your daughters that they need to get married and have many children, tell them to follow their own calling, whether
it is to the home or not- and be open to whatever it is falls into place in
their life.”
I understand what the commenter is trying to say here…but it’s saturated in deception….take a step back. “At no point will I become a submissive wife”, she protests. Yet, she is fully willing to become a submissive employee, to a man that probably doesn’t care a fraction as much for her as her husband does. To be enslaved to his schedule, his demands, his time. Does anyone else recognize this faulty logic? This “protest” and fighting for “rights” to be who I want to be.
I can understand lamenting that you feel “stuck” working outside the home to make ends meet. But to say that being at home is being “stuck”? This anger at those who would raise daughters who believe that home is more than a house…but that it’s a beginning point, a place where, if we plant ourselves, we take root and grow, and flourish, and are met with more opportunities, more freedom and more avenues of production than we will ever be able to fulfill!
That’s oppressive? How?
It’s like standing inside a prison cell and wagging a finger at those on the outside saying, “You shouldn’t tell people they can’t choose this life…nor should you brainwash your daughters to think so.” ????
I really don’t get it. I really do desire to cast off this deceptive facade that stands in the way of women and home.
Hey, I’m a women’s-libber 😉
48 comments
I just wanted to say thank you for defending the home. Personally, I visit this site for encouragement. I battle with depression and anxiety and tend to fall in that sinful pity=me state.
Your website is such a blessing on these rainy days for my soul. Reminding me to keep fighting.
Great post! Amen sista!
How incredibly sad
I should add……
I fully agree with your post and fully disagree with that comment…..
Submitting to your boss is something normal in the bussiness world. After all, he IS the boss for a reason – hopefully because he is the best choice for running the organization. And employees submit to their boss for a limited amount of time, and if they don’t agree they can express their disagreement and hopefully they can reach a compromise. The boss is not a tyrant and in the end, if things go bad, employyes who disagree with their boss can quit. Submission to a boss is understandable and acceptable because it is based on the fact that he is a good manager and the best man for the job. On the other hand, submission to a husband is for me an absurd and unacceptable concept. It is for life and it;s not based on a rational choice. If you really care for submission in a marriage, then I suggest the submissive one should be the one with the lowest IQ. It would be the husband in many cases, I’m sure! Real men who know their worth do not want brainewashed wives aka submissive wives. Only weak people need to feel superior and have to be constantly reassured by having other people submit to the. I’m really sorry for women who have such husbands. They are idols with feet of clay. If they need to have slaves in order to feel strong, they must be lousy men indeed! A real marriage is a partnership, with husband and wife having an equal worth, sharing a mutual love and respect and making all decisions together. By the way, did you know that your view on women’s role is a blatant violation of human rights ? You are denying a huge part of the human populaation the right to choose and you prescribe a role for them based on their gender.
The first comment made by rylie’s mom, confirmed my negative opinion about submissive wives. What she actually says is : I have abandoned all responsibility, I no longer think, in fact I reverted to my childhood, when parents were in charge of everything and children didn’t have to worry about anything. She’s no longer a human being, she’s a vegetable or something. Yes, for the weakest (not to say brainless ) people this submission thing is a God send. They can finally enjoy a vegetative state. As a mother, how can you leave the decisions regarding your children entirely to your husband? you basically abandon your responsibility as a mother….And by the way, rylie’s mom, how do you know your husband receives his directions from the Lord? They might come from the evil one, you know how deceptive and cunning he is…
We ALL submit to someone or something. We can only choose who or what we submit to. Personally I prefer to submit to God Almighty, Who overflows with Fatherly love, and to my husband, who cherishes and treasures me – not to a boss who only cares about how much I produce.
Well said, Kelly!
Anonymous misses the point. First off, I’ve held a job and the idea that a manger is the “best” person for the job is absurd. I’ve worked for people who are mangers simply by virtue of time served (sounds like prison doesn’t it?)
Second, who said anything about slavery??? And given that we choose the man we marry, isn’t he the “best” person for THAT job? If we marry as we should, and most people don’t nowadays, submission is beautiful and freeing, not oppressive. It is quite sad the way so many are being deceived to believe that submission in the home is prison but in the marketplace is freedom.
ANONYMOUS confirms what a confused and misunderstood state of thinking so many women are in over the word “submission”.
To call a submissive wife “brainwashed, vegetative, low IQ, etc.) is nothing but an embarassing revelation of one’s own understanding.
Maybe she has seen a case where a husband abuses his position, or a wife misunderstands hers, but BIBLICAL is nothing like that…I guess I forget that there are so many out there who don’t understand it.
ANON…submitting is not retreating, or giving up anything, or bowing, etc. And a husband who understands his role properly is the OPPOSITE of an idol who feels some need for superiority.
If you’ll read what Scripture says about it, a husband is asked to LAY DOWN HIS LIFE for his wife. In being placed in authority (by God, not by MY placing him there), he becomes the ultimate servant, shouldering the protection and responsibility of his household.
I am still a manager! I’ve given the Pres./Vice Pres. analogy before. Is the Vice Pres. a thinkless peon? I’ll say not. He serves as the right hand to the President. In essence, that’s what the wife does, only he loves her a lot more 😉
Anonymous said, “Submission to a boss is understandable and acceptable because it is based on the fact that he is a good manager and the best man for the job.”
And in loving, Godly Christian marriages, submission is acceptable because the husband is a good manager. If he’s truly following God’s commands for marriage, he is loving his wife as Christ loved the church, sacrificing himself for her. I can think of no better manager than that… one who gives of himself. Unfortunately, that’s not true of many, many marriages… but we can hardly blame submission for that. Bad relationship happen because people AREN’T following all of God’s commands for marriage, not because they are.
When a husband is doing his best to follow the commands of God regarding marriage, and a wife is doing the same, it’s a beautiful thing. I am called to be submissive to my husband, but that doesn’t mean being a doormat. In fact, as Christians, we are called to prefer each other over ourselves. So in the ideal situation, if my husband and I disagree about something, I would be fighting for what’s best for HIM, and he’d be fighting for what’s best for ME. Since I’m called to be submissive in these situations, ultimately I’d need to submit to his idea. That doesn’t mean that submission shouldn’t be seen as a way for me to always get my way. It’s merely a reflection of God’s love for us and a way for a husband to exercise his calling of loving, sacrificing leadership. I hardly see it as a bad thing to be in relationship with someone who loves me enough to sacrifice himself for me.
Another note about bosses and husbands: I currently work for a man who’s not only an ineffective boss, but an incredibly offensive, rude, and insensitive person. He’s openly racist, sexist, and I and a number of the women I work with have had problems with him sexually harassing them. He’s not a good manager, he’s an uncaring one.
It’s interesting, Anonymous, that you would make the blanket statement that bosses are good managers, while husbands are not. Husbands make vows before God to love and serve their wives, and to sacrifice for them. Bosses make no such vows. Bosses are not required to show loyalty to their employees. They can fire them at a moment’s notice.
I recognize that many marriages do not reflect this standard, as the divorce rate is higher than ever, but God’s plan for marriage is undeniable. He intends for husbands and wives to love each other FOREVER, not for a trial period, and to sacrifice for each other.
Sorry, Word Warrior, I think I echoed some of what you said. I didn’t read all the comments before responding to Anonymous. 🙂
you know, i dare say that’s the problem. most people have not seen a good, Godly example of Biblical submission. i know i hadn’t. it really isn’t like most employer-employee situations. most of those are awful. but then, many marriages are awful. there are many situations where the man is something of a bully and also many situations where the woman is outwardly submissive but secretly manipulative. but that’s not Biblical, it’s just the inevitable result of our sinful natures. when i finally saw this Biblical model of marriage actually working, with the woman submitting and the man laying down his life for his wife, it was such an amazing and beautiful thing.
-magda
Wow, well said Kelly, Anna, Terry. Everyone. It’s hard to remember that most women out there don’t know what Biblical submission calls for or looks like. I used to think like the post you quoted Kelly.
I’m not going to speculate on the type of life that Anonymous has lived, but I know that personally, I used to have an incredibly independent attitude. When I was younger, I thought, “There’s no way I’m ever going to submit to a man!” Behind my attitude was an incredibly intense fear. All around me, I saw men leaving their families. Even though my own dad was present, my mom still warned me that I needed to go to college and have a good career in case my future husband left me. The message was very clear to me as a young girl: “Men leave. Men can’t be trusted. You’d better be able to fend for yourself when he runs off with some hussy.”
So in more ways than one, my submission to my husband is a respect issue. I respect him enough to allow him to fulfill his Godly place in our family, and I’m also showing him that I really do trust him.
I could have the heart attitude that he’s probably got one foot out the door so I’d just better be prepared when the other shoe drops, or I can show him that I trust in him to live up to his marriage vows, and to provide for my needs and the needs of our children. I think that ultimately, my trust in him is at least a small part of what equips him to be a better man and be the type of father and husband we need him to be.
Quoting Anonymous: “And by the way, rylie’s mom, how do you know your husband receives his directions from the Lord? They might come from the evil one, you know how deceptive and cunning he is…”
Yes…there may be times he is not receiving the correct direction – but we as wives have to remember we are not just submitting to our husbands, but to the Lord THROUGH our husbands. (Eph 5:22) Even if our husband is wrong, (not speaking of moral issues here) we are still obeying God by submitting to them…as hard as it might be!
I too am learning how to submit to my husband after being the “leader” in our family…it has been such a huge blessing for all involved. Definitely a challenge and I’m still learning to TRUST in the Lord, and not myself. But I know it is what I am called to do and am thankful!
Submitting to a boss is something a person does for a specific period of time. It’s a role that a person can take off and put on at will.
Whereas being submissive because you are a *woman* is not a role you take off and take on. You are to be submissive BECAUSE of the way you were born, and you are to remain submissive until you die.
So I think comparing submission on the job front versus submission on the home front is comparing apples and oranges: it’s not the same thing at all.
Because according to your teachings, women don’t have the *choice* to be submissive—they *have* to be. And that’s a lot different that simply making the choice to work at a job.
From a stay-home mom who believes in submission, but who believes that submission is supposed to be a *Christian* trait, not a female one.
Oh, women can absolutely choose not to be submissive. There are plenty of things that God asks both men and women to be, and we can choose to either comply or not. It’s just that when we choose to live outside God’s will, things don’t usually go so great.
Yes, I’d say submission is a Christian trait, not solely a feminine one. We are all, men as well as women, called to submit to Christ, to submit to leadership, and to submit to one another. I’d say that a husband sacrificing himself for his family is absolutely being submissive. After all, if he’s going to be a portrayal of Christ, he has to submit to God’s will, just as Christ did.
That’s the key to all of this… in order for a woman to feel comfortable submitting to her husband, she must know that he is truly submitting to God’s will.
it is clear that anon doesn’t understand the biblical meanings of the words and is instead using the worldly way to make her decisions. that is why it is so important for us as titus 2 women to teach.
and yes- following bible is a choice- God doesn’t come down and beat you up if you reject it. how foolish to go your own way tho instead of His.
by the way- a job is what you do , a wife is who you are. how can you compare the 2?
Lots of people have made some really good points. One I noticed when I read the original comment is part of the last sentence.
“-and be open to whatever it is falls into place in their life.”
Why do we assume that it will be “good” whatever “falls into place”? Because we live in a if-it-feels-good-do-it society?
It ‘fell into place’ for my brother to escape reality with drugs. It might ‘fall into place’ for a young woman to easily become a stripper, multiple relationships, etc. It would be easy to let the habit of day care “fall into place” when it comes to a handfull of a 2yo boy.
As far as the last comment goes, I do think that submission is something a follower of Christ is called to do. However, if a *woman* in general will practice the principle in the way a Christian does, I think there will be benifits.
For instance, if atheist practices honesty, he might be more sucessful than if he were underhanded and dishonest.
The problem is when most people do not know what honesty is, or what submission is, and justify ‘little white lies’ and disrespecting their husband to close girl friends.
Of course, for a person to look at a follower of Christ and try to copy all of what they do would not result in joy, because the source of our joy is found in Jesus Christ.
Just some thoughts.
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
yes- following bible is a choice- God doesn’t come down and beat you up if you reject it. how foolish to go your own way tho instead of His.
But I am a follower of Christ, therefore also of what the Bible teaches. I just don’t think the Bible teaches female submission—I think an interpretation of the Bible teaches female submission, but there are other very valid carefully researched interpretations that do not.
What we can agree on is that gentle submission is a Christian trait. What we can’t agree on is that God made women to submit and men to lead.
There are some very good scholarly articles on this, available on the internet and elsewhere. It would be a blessing if you would consider reading what some scholars have to say, instead of assuming that your view is the only Biblical one. I really am very much pro-submission and pro-Bible. I just believe that Ephesians 5:21 is just as inspired as the rest of the chapter.
Love from this stay-home mom
I find it terribly interesting (and alarming) that you would search out versions of the Bible that teach something more palatable for you, and that you are more concerned with what “scholars” have written on the subject than you are with what was originally written from divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Submission is not the problem…I think your interpretation of it may be.
“There are some very good scholarly articles on this, available on the internet and elsewhere. It would be a blessing if you would consider reading what some scholars have to say, instead of assuming that your view is the only Biblical one.”
Anonymous, I’d love to read some of these articles. Would you be good enough to provide links for them? Thanks a ton!
I find it terribly interesting (and alarming) that you would search out versions of the Bible that teach something more palatable for you, and that you are more concerned with what “scholars” have written on the subject than you are with what was originally written from divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Wait. There’s nothing “palatable” about being called to love utterly. There’s nothing “palatable” about obeying 1 Cor. 13. I really don’t understand why you would instantly jump to assume I am taking the easy way out because I don’t agree with your interpretation.
Following the way of Christ is the hardest thing (yet the most wonderful thing) I’ve ever undertaken. There is nothing easy about being called to bear the fruit of the Spirit.
Anonymous, I’d love to read some of these articles. Would you be good enough to provide links for them? Thanks a ton!
Here are some for starters.
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/free_articles.shtml
(I don’t know if that link will show up or not, as I don’t know the code for making a link active in blogger. Also, some of these articles are excellent, some are not, as with any group or organization).
Again, the point I am trying to make is that there are solid Bible scholars on *all* sides of these issues. It’s not Bible believers on one side and liberals on the other, as this blog often tries to paint it, at least to me.
There are good solid “Bible is inspired of God” people on BOTH sides of the fence here, because what is at issue is not what the Bible says but rather how we interpret it.
For example, the Bible never says that the husband is the leader. People have interpreted that into the Bible. There is *no* verse that says a husband is to be the leader. No verse at all.
Just as there is no verse anywhere in Scripture that says a husband will stand before God and answer for how he led his family. No verse at all. It’s another example of a very common teaching that is 100% interpretation, not actual Bible teaching.
That’s not to say the interpretation is right or wrong. It’s simply to say that it is an *interpretation.*
how can you interpret these verses as anything but a wife submitting to her husband?
Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
bringing up this verse before those-
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
this is speaking of christians in general, as seen by mentioning singing and speaking etc.
why would you be afraid to submit to a biblical christian husband? i submit but my husband doesn’t order me around like a slave, he and i share decisions,i use my own mind. i am not a beaten down dog !
Head=Leader, anyway you slice it.
Head does not equal leader. There was a Greek word used to indicate head/leader, arche, and it was not used. Instead the word, kephale, was used, which was not used to indicate leadership/authority, but used to indicate either a literal head, or a source.
Because people during this time did not view the head as “the brains,” but actually viewed the person being ruled by either their heart or their gut (no joke), head was not likely being used as an illustration of “brains” as we know it.
To me, it seems like it was being used to indicate unity.
Women submitting was the way that world worked. They were required to submit by law. The New Testement wasn’t requiring slavery for all time, was it, when it said, “slaves, obey your masters?” Paul was just talking to people in the social structure they were in, not necessarily making rules for all time. If we decide “wives, submit” is a rule for all time, that’s fine, but we need to recognize that we are doing so based on interpretation, not based on the actual text. Nothing in the text says that this is a rule for all time. And nothing in the expanse of Biblical Greek studies would indicate there is a strong argument for “kephale(head)” meaning leader/authority. Wayne Grudem wrote a paper saying that kephale meant authority, but it has been discredited now, as the examples he gave have been found to be seriously stretched.
Again, this does not have to do with submission in and of itself. Gentleness, submission, those things are all parts of being a Christian and are beautiful things. It’s the concept of one-sided submission, of male leadership, that I am suggesting is not as “Biblical” as some are saying it is. It’s one way one might INTERPRET the Bible, but not the only way, and certainly not above some serious approach, particularly once one delves into the Greek.
Here is a link to a translators blog where this is really delved into (if I can make it work, that is):
http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/2008/01/index-cbmw-grudem-kephale.html
If not, a link to the specific page is found by clicking these words on the sidebar:
Index: CBMW, Grudem, kephale
Again, my point here isn’t to say that your interpretation is wrong. It might be, it might not. My point here is simply to say it’s an *interpretation.* Scholarship is not on your side. And that scholarship is not from evil satan lovers, but from humble Bible-believing Christians who want to be *sure* that they are not making mistakes when it comes to living by the precepts of Scripture.
Anon,
I’m confused about why you think I am advocating “one-sided” submission…your interpretation of that being a lord-it-over kind of thing.
Your interpretation explanation makes no sense. If Paul was simply speaking in agreement with a law, and not speaking to “all times”, why does he take the time to explain the husband’s role–“husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it”…
If submission was such an archaic and demeaning practice of NT times, men certainly would not have been asked to give their lives for their wives. It would have been considered “normal” and therefore, no need for qualification.
What concerns me most about your philosophy here is that you have basically decided the Bible is inaccurate. I believe in studying the Greek meanings, but you are advocating a complete “rewriting” of the Scriptures.
You can therefore make the Bible say anything you want it to say…dangerous, inerrant ground.
My question is, why did you need to find a “better” translation in the first place, except that your flesh didn’t like what it was reading?
Let me clarify:
“If submission was such an archaic and demeaning practice of NT times, men certainly would not have been asked to give their lives for their wives. It would have been considered “normal” and therefore, no need for qualification.”
We know there were abusive classes during Bible times. I meant to imply why would Paul be giving direction regarding submission to Christians, both women’s and men’s roles, if he was merely satisfying the law of the times?
Paul’s instructions (and otherwise in the Bible) were given to demonstrate a biblical relationship–for all times, specifying how a man and a woman were to act toward each other.
Woman was made to “help” man. Not to be a worm beneath his foot, but to be a very capable helper and to complete him.
Someone has to have veto power! It’s alot like Easter, where she replaced the disobedient queen, least women all over the country start disrespecting their husbands. It would be a mess, and even the Medes and Persians recognized it.
I found an article at cbeinternational on equality that quoted extensively from the TNIV. That’s a gender-inclusive version, btw. Also it talks about Deborah – no one denies that God used her to judge Israel and do it well, or that God uses other women.
However, if women were only to submit in the NT due to cultural restrictions, how do we decide what is what? Maybe the issue of modesty was a cultural one. Maybe the request to adorn ourselves with our spirits rather than jewlery was because of the culture being addressed adorned themselves, so this doesn’t apply to me.
This basically means that because our culture thinks it’s normal, if my husband makes a choice I can over-ride it. I can stand up and argue with him in public and tell him in front of other’s that he’s wrong. My husband might want me to stay home, but I decide to put our children in daycare and go to work, too. Because *I* want to and feel it’s best, disregarding his desire as opressive.
This is just wrong….I don’t care how culturally acceptable it is today. We are to be different, not blend in!
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
However, if women were only to submit in the NT due to cultural restrictions, how do we decide what is what?
That’s the point: you already are. You make those decisions every time you read your Bible when you decide what is culturally applicable and what isn’t. The slaves and masters “commands” are an excellent example.
My question is, why did you need to find a “better” translation in the first place, except that your flesh didn’t like what it was reading?
This is a terrible way to respond. It’s called discrediting the witness. You would feel rightly outraged if I said that the reason you are pro-wifely-submission is because you have issues of wanting to be controlled, right? Why would you be so rude to do the same to me, to assume that simply because I see the Bible saying something different (I,along with many other Bible-believing people), that it *has* to be because of my flesh?
I am really shocked at how mean-spirited that is. It also tells me, I’m assuming, that you have no carefully combed through all the research (because if you had, I’m imagine you’d speak a lot more respectfully instead of assume that yours is the only option).
There are a LOT of powerful arguments for interpreting Christ to be setting women free from “female” submission—–but, remember, nobody is saying that Christ sets us free from submission in general. Submission is a Christian virtue.
Wives should submit and respect, becuase they are Christians, not because they are women. The end result is that my marriage likely looks no different than yours. It’s just that my submission is not based on whether or not I’m female. It’s because I follow a Christ who tells me to respect and love all of His people.
I thought of this today. Why take it back to Sarah if this is a cultural command?
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; [….]
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
[6] Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
In the Greco-Persian law, women might have been classed with animals. But *God* has certainly never treated women as second-class people! When they were not counted as trustworthy eye witness by the culture, God used them to witness His Son’s resurection! If this is a cultural thing, we need to be told it’s a cultural thing, and not confuse the issue with talking about how other “holy women” in “old times” have followed their husbands.
There are also many slaves in the world today. So I hardly think that part of the Bible is obsolete.
If submitting to authority is such a demeaning thing, you would think more people would work for themselves, rather than subject themselves to such abuse. I certainly have never thought of my husband as a vegetable or a slave, though he has boss upon boss to answer to as a design engineer…. every design he creates is carefully double-checked, not because he is being demeaned, but for the good of the project.
The bosses I have worked under usually don’t want us to see ourselves as peons but as part of a “team”. Some abuse their power, tis’ true. Regardless, I still choose to place myself in my home where my husband is a very loving, generous ‘boss’ rather than under one that doesn’t love me – at all!
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
If submitting to authority is such a demeaning thing,
Humbly spoken, no one is saying that.
The question is whether women are literally created to be under the authority of men *because* of the fact that they are women. That’s a submission that starts at birth and ends at death, a submission that is not voluntary.
Does the Bible promote that kind of submission? And that’s where good Bible-loving men and women have different answers, all of them with plenty of Bible passages used to “prove” their point.
Point being, it really comes down to interpretation.
You have to use the art of interpretation to decide that “head” means “leader.” It doesn’t always mean leader. Particularly “kephale.” It’s an analogy we use today to mean “leader,” when we say head of a company, head of the pack, etc. But it wasn’t used that way, then.
Again, it comes down to our interpretation. All of us are using interpretation when we decide what the Bible means to say to our lives. God’s words are not what is fallible, it’s our human understanding that is fallible.
I could be totally wrong in my interpretation that head does not mean spiritual authority. But so could you, because the text does not EVER say that head means spiritual authority.
“…the text does not EVER say that head means spiritual authority.”
Out of curiosity, what does it mean to you when it says, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body” as it does in Ephesians? What does it mean for Christ to be the head of the church? How do we, as the Church, act toward Christ, our head?
Very interesting in how you answer mrs. sarah ….
…and the verses I quoted out of first Peter chapter 3 don’t even use the word “head” – just ‘subjection’ and if you want to use the TNIV, ‘submit’. So I’m a bit confused as to how that pertains to my comment…. 🙂
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
Sorry Ashley, I should have been more specific. I was speaking to Anonymous, the one who is making the point about submission not solely being a feminine trait (which I don’t disagree with, by the way). She was saying that head does not equal leader, so I was just asking her what her interpretation of the word “head” was in regard to Jesus’ headship over the church.
The multiple anonymouses are confusing! Anonymous, would you mind just giving us your first name so we know who to address our comments to?
Out of curiosity, what does it mean to you when it says, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body” as it does in Ephesians? What does it mean for Christ to be the head of the church? How do we, as the Church, act toward Christ, our head?
Those are all areas where we have to use interpretation.
For some, they feel that the husband represents Christ in *all* ways, and the wife the Church in *all* ways.
For others, they believe that the thrust of Ephesians is to emphasize that Christ has made us all one with Him. They use the first chapter to demonstrate that, Christ making us one with Him, even going so far as to “seat us in heavenly places” (which involves ruling) with Him.
To me, Ephesians doesn’t appear to be emphasizing that Christ rules OVER the Church but more so that Christ has made the Church *one* with Him. (That’s not to say that Christ doesn’t rule the Church, but rather to try and interpret what the main emphasis of the head-and-body analogy is supposed to mean).
If the analogy is meant to be taken FULLY, meaning that the husband represents Christ in *all* ways, it becomes a little problematic. I’m sure you can imagine the problems: how in the world can one human being adequately represent Christ in His fullness? Or where does the Bible say that a husband is the prophet, priest and king of a wife? Doesn’t it say that we *all* are prophets, priests, and kings?
But nonetheless, some feel that is the best way to interpret Ephesians 5. That’s fine. They have the right to interpret as best as they can.
For me personally, I feel that the emphasis of Ephesians is on one-ness. To me, the head and body analogy appears to be emphasizing the oneness, not the seperateness.
Paul tells the wives to submit (as was the law) and the husbands to love their wives by serving them unto the death (“as Christ loved the church”).
Paul tells us in Ephesians 1 and 2 how much Christ loved the Church. Paul shows us that Christ does not lord it over her, but pulls her up and has her rule and reign with Him.
Which person is doing the loving serving and which person is graciously submitting? It’s awful hard to tell. That’s the other thing that makes me lean towards Paul using the head/body analogy as a means of expressing oneness, NOT as a means of expressing authority and subordination.
My interpretation is VERY much based on carefully studying the Bible, not going after my flesh. You’ll notice that I am called to submit either way—there is no “getting out of” submitting for ANY Christian. I just see it called for because I’m a follower of Christ, not because I was born female.
Thanks for your interpretation! I appreciate you getting back to me on that.
Exactly! You are one of the few, the rare that sees this dichotomy in the feminazi argument. They say they won’t become a submissive wife – but they ARE submissive employees? Why are they so? – FOR MONEY! They worship MAMMON that devil and NOT God. In fact, they BLASPHEME THE WORD OF GOD and want to bring others into the same spiritual slavery as them.
Thank you for posting your insight into their dark and faulty reasonings sister! Yah bless you & yours richly!
You don’t know me, and I have never read your blog before but my sister (Kim) has told me about how great it is, and how you have a way with words. I really love this post and COMPLETELY agree with it. I just want to say that when “anonymous” people make obviously ignorant comments, just remember, at least they’re reading your blog, and even if they disagree with it, at least it makes them think. =) I’ve read several of your posts and I agree with all of it- I want to have a big family if it’s the Lord’s Will, and when I tell people how many kids I want to have they look at me like I’m crazy. =/
Thanks Erin! Hope to see you around some more1
I am the “Kim” Erin is talking about. I hope your blog can touch her life. She is about to get married next spring. 🙂 She is my “baby” since she was born 12 years younger than me.
Oh and get this… my mom was on the pill when Erin was conceived!!! Isn’t that awesome?!
If it’s all right for men to be submissive to an employer, then why is it wrong for women? I guess men aren’t worshipping Mammon…Again a double standard, in fact you’re violating human rights by prescribing a certain conduct on people based on their gender. Another thing: you interpret the Bible the way you want in order to support your position. How about putting things in context? St Paul wrote 2000 years ago for that society and some verses apply exclusively to that specifical historical context. St Paul also writes about slaves obeying to their masters. Since it’s in the Bible, do you suggest we should have slaves? Then we must have commited a grave sin by abolishing slavery…How about the verse that says there are no men, women, but we’re all one in Christ? Another thing: you NEVER mention or think about the way Jesus treated women, giving them an important place in his life and mission, in a time when women had almost no rights, certainly played no part in the spiritual life of the Jews. Oddly, you never mention that, but stick to a couple of verses written by St Paul for a specific society. Concentrate on Jesus, please, he is our Saviour and we should follow his teachings. Also, as Christians we are bound to love our enemies, so if you decided feminism is your enemy, you should love us and pray for us, not judge us, criticize us and call us names.
You clearly haven’t read any of my other posts besides this one.
I have consistenly fought “against” feminism because it ironically degrades women and tears them down. My stance is that JESUS, (yes I’ve written specifically about this) was the true liberator of women, bringing them to the position of EQUAL value with men.
The feminist’s problem is that they do not comprehend how a woman can both follow/submit to her husband and still be equal in value to him…
The true picture, the relevance Paul wrote about for his day and ours, is that a husband was given the position of head just as Christ was; Christ lay down his life for his bride, both symbolically while he was living, and physically.
That’s the picture the Bible gives of true submission and authority. A godly man will lay down his life for his bride. That automatically *exalts* her to a position FAR beyond what the feminist agenda does.
It’s a freeing, valuing gospel our Lord teaches. That’s the same one I promote.
I can see that Anon. is suggesting that we need to see everything in its right context. The Bible was written 2000 years ago, and the society looked obviously different at that time. If we didn’t have working women in our modern society, how would everything go around? I am thinking of the proffession that I’m in; social worker. 90 % of the social workers in my country are women, and more than 90 % of the nurses in my country, are women as well. How can you say and believe that a society would work if we didn’t have these women to help the weaker and poor people? These two areas; nursing and social work, is since ages dominated by women. It’s not too popular for men to work in this area. That isn’t something we can change over a night, and it doesn’t matter if we could bring more men into this proffession, cause then we would lack of labour somewhere else.
Would you suggest it’s okay for a woman to work before she settles down with a family? Would you suggest that’s a solution? But then you must realize that educating yourself 3,5 years just to work for some few years, wouldn’t gain many. And if all these thousands of women eventually decide to stay home, we would all be in a miserable situation. The poor people wouldn’t get the help their needed. The criminality rate would raise to extremely high levels. More children would suffer from not being heard and seen in the society… Suggesting that a society should work in another way is extremely naive, egoistical and not in line with the messages I get in the Bible.
Ps. Sorry for my bad English. It’s my third language.
Jenny F.,
The comments you bring up are interesting, but really not relevant. As Christians, we should look to the Bible as the final authority on all things in our life. We are not to use the society we live in or the circumstances we are in to determine what we should do or how we interpret what the Bible says. If the Bible says something, even if it doesn’t seem to “fit” with our circumstances or “fit” in our society, we still must do it- and we cannot help but speak about it as well, as Kelly does here on her blog.
Amy
Howdy! This is my 1st comment here so I just wanted to give a quick shout out and say I really enjoy reading through your blog posts. Can you recommend any other blogs/websites/forums that cover the same topics? Thank you!