Home homeschooling HOPE for the Future: What We Must Do To Restore Our Country

HOPE for the Future: What We Must Do To Restore Our Country

by Kelly Crawford

I know it’s not popular. I sat here at my keyboard, hesitating to write, because I know there are many friends and family who will likely be angry at things I say. And I actually don’t enjoy friction at all.

And yet now, as ever, I am compelled by my LOVE….my love for our country, for freedom, my love for the church, for the family, my love for my fellow brothers and sisters–to risk losing their affections. If you don’t agree with me, I still beg you to consider where my motives come from.

I will let Michael Farris speak for most of this post, because he precisely sums up the thoughts I’ve had concerning this election (and the last one, and the one before that…)

He writes:

“There are two important lessons embedded in last night’s debacle. We are losing the votes of young people. We are losing the votes of women. Why?

The simple answer is that both groups have a disproportionate number who believe that the purpose of government is to “supply my needs.” Why do they believe this?

For young people, the answer is simple: public schools. The vast majority of young people attend public schools. And it is not merely that the teachers indoctrinate the students to believe that the purpose of government is to furnish our needs—that is more true than not. The far more powerful reason is that public schools furnish the child’s education—the dominating reality of their young lives. It would be astonishing that young people would go to government schools, then graduate to government colleges, or attend private colleges on government subsidies and come out with any conclusion other than “the purpose of government is to provide for my needs.”

Women are vulnerable to the siren call of “government services” because of the sexual promiscuity of men. Men use, abuse, and abandon women. Divorced women and single moms abound because of the sin of men. We have more unmarried adults than married adults for the first time in American history. This fact has enormous political consequences. 

What do we do?

We must start with the Christian population. Christians give you child an education that does not come from the government. You cannot raise a child to believe in freedom when that child is educated by the government.

Christian men. Be sexually pure before marriage. Get married. Treat your wife well. Stay true. Stay married.

Christians must start doing these things right now or our society will never recover.”

I have my “soapbox issues” because they are crucial, in my estimation, to the way we end up as a society, not because they are some pet preferences of mine. Ideas have consequences. How we think determines how we live and we are NOT autonomous. Our decisions affect each other…..immensely.

I would add to Mr. Farris’ admonition for Christians: start receiving your children and raise them for God’s glory and the advancement of His Kingdom. Remember that to “be fruitful and multiply” is not an antiquated commandment, but for our good!

God told the Israelites, when they were in utter bondage and oppression, to “grow”. To reproduce, to receive the children He would give them. The gift of children is multi-faceted but one of them is the power of numbers. As those who hate life kill their own children and close their wombs, let us rejoice that He delights in giving His people godly increase! (Malachi 2:15) And let us never be accomplices to the death knell of the unborn through our own flippancy of the value of children.

There is only ONE answer to the brokenness and confusion of people desperate to be rescued. It is not a man; it is King Jesus who gives us the Word of life for all of life. We will start to live it–not talk it, but live it–in the way we raise our children, the way we love our spouses, the way we conduct business and treat others, the way we honor the Lord and trust Him, or we will be ruled by tyrants without real answers.

Of course these aren’t complete solutions; we must all examine ourselves in every area of living to see if we are truly seeking first the Kingdom. But some real life-change must take place…some may seem drastic. Have we ever been more ripe for “drastic”?

This is a time for doing, not just talking. For being, not just blaming.

I am encouraged! This is a wake-up call for those who really do want to see America restored to its freedom. God’s Word has the answers….let’s get busy!

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156 comments

Cheryl November 7, 2012 - 9:14 pm

I agree completely with this though the problems addressed are incomplete. We are a goat driven church, whoring after Babylon. I’ve struggled a lot with the choices I’ve made in living out my life, many times often being indistinguable from the rest of the world. It’s time for each one of us to take a serious look at our lives and to ask God to root out ever vestiage of ungodliness in us. It is time to look to self, family, church, and local government rooted in God’s law-word. Salvation will not come from the state, but we must work, one brick at a time, to build the Kingdom of God.

Word Warrior November 7, 2012 - 9:16 pm

Cheryl,

You are so right; I think I’ll add that important disclaimer.

Candace November 7, 2012 - 10:51 pm

I loved how Michael Farris summed up the election, as well as his exhortation to Christians. I read it this morning on FB.

Couldn’t agree more with all you’ve said! Thank you for sharing your heart!

Soli Deo Gloria!

Jess November 8, 2012 - 12:43 am

So many things I disagree with in this post

The Republican party has historically done nothing to convince me it would represent my interests or concerns. Those awful comments about rape victims really pushed me over the edge. It’s not about wanting hand outs from the goverment it’s about the goverment representing the issues that matter to you.

What I don’t understand about the GOP is that they keep swinging so far to the right and not understanding that most Americans are moderates. And when they fail they blame the electorate for not being conservative enough. It’s like a terrible unfunny commedians whose shows are terrible and they blame the audience for not liking their show.

I work in a public school and I did a lesson about the election. We talked about how different groups have been disenfranchised and not been allowed to vote (slaves, women, American Indians, DC residents, drafted Vietnam soliders who were under 21) and talked about why it’s important to vote and be represented. It really was such a terrible indoctrination about handouts! You would have been shaking in your boots! /sarcasm.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 8:21 am

Jess,

I think you misunderstand what we mean by “indoctrination” (not necessarily coming from the teachers themselves, but more subtly, through the curriculum and such), and really, this post doesn’t refer to that. It refers to the obvious thought process that when a child has been educated by the government (one of the most important factors in his young life)he will naturally look to the government to care for his other big needs. Socialism is, by its nature, part of how the system works. Government education IS socialism.

Candace November 8, 2012 - 11:42 am

You are right about that…. government education is socialism. John Dewey, known as “The Father of Education”, was a strong believer in socialism and surrounded himself with socialist friends. It has been their plan all along to slowly get into the minds of our children. There is an excellent article about him here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/john_dewey_is_a_fraud.html

You may have already watched, but for those who have not, another great resource is the documentary “Agenda, the Grinding Down of America”. You can watch this for free on YouTube or Vimeo. It documents the history of the socialist movement, and what they have accomplished so far. We watched this for the first time last night and I was in tears. It’s very scary how close they are to accomplishing their goal, and we don’t have much time to wake people up to what’s going on. The futures of our children and grandchildren depend on it. May the Lord help us.

Melissa Miller November 8, 2012 - 9:56 am

I agree with all that you have said, and applaud your effort to speak out in the face of controversy. It is not a popular message, many do not really get what is meant when we speak about the public schools, but we must speak out. For the sake of Country.

Babychaser November 8, 2012 - 10:06 am

Well said! What you said about public schools… the church… everything. You are right in saying these are not complete solutions, and I like what Cheryl said as well. Even in our churches we are still just a little bit better than the world… only a few steps behind in the poor choices and demoralization of America. My husband and I are ever seeking the Bible for how we can follow what it says, not what churches are telling us. We find it places us quite counter cultural in the way we live, raise our children, worship God, etc. Not that we are better than others, I don’t mean that. We certainly fail every day, but our hearts are to please the Lord and follow His
Word… changing our worldview to a Biblical one.

Homeschool on the Croft November 8, 2012 - 11:02 am

I read this a few minutes ago in Malachi 3:
“14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts?

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.”

What I stopped at was the word THEN at the beginning of verse 16. When things were at their worst, THEN the Lord’s people began to ‘talk with each other etc.

As you’ve suggested, Let *us* consider our ways, talk with each other, and then reach out with the true Biblical message … and truth will always have an effect: it will cleanse and convert; or it will rub folks up the wrong way.

The results are not what we are to worry about. Let us do what is right.
A x

Kim from Canada November 8, 2012 - 11:37 am

Well, my husband and I watched all the debates and sat watching the map be coloured in during election night. The loss to socialism isn’t truly surprising – sad, but not surprising. When each generation is being raised with expectations that the government will serve, save and support them, then of course that gets the vote. I am sincere in my sympathy for where America is heading, but I am sincere in my encouragement for those who are independent minded, as well. Canada lived under a Liberal/socialist government for decades and is only now seeing how long our current Conservative government will have to work to undue so much damage. (Mind you, I use the word ‘conservative’ loosely here – it is a center/right government and it had to be to get into power – our Prime Minister recognized the need to be moderate in order take the lead and SLOWLY change out policies.)
Sorry the length – just commiserating

Jennifer November 8, 2012 - 11:57 am

So, where’s the controversy? I like this post. Only people I can think of who wouldn’t like it are the creeps I’ve seen who get mad any time men’s sins are pointed out or partly blamed for our current troubles (there ARE many sinful women of course, poisoned by the idea that loose sex is natural and men will oppress them, so they must cling to the government).

Miss November 8, 2012 - 12:33 pm

If public school taught me to value socialism it was because I realized that other people matter too. I do consider other people’s needs to be of great importance.

The 30 % taxes I pay go to people who need those money better than I do. I fully support that. I am glad I can help people that way. I do not need a fancy house someday. All I need is a life of quality.

I was born into poverty. Back in the 80s we didn’t always have heat during Winter-time (it was very cold here in northern Europe back then). Neither did we have running water. When my mother decided to go to the social services, she got some financial help (social allowance + child allowance). That way we had enough – most of the time. My mum is not wasteful, mind you. She is an economist.

Social welfare was a necessity to us. It was not a luxury. It was something we needed for a while, until we could one day manage without it. My mum wanted to be able to provide for our little family. With some part-time-jobs and training allowance, she finally managed to support us by herself. She never gave up. She struggled to give us a better life. After 20 years she got a permanent employment.

I am glad I can help other people, while earning enough to support myself as well. I am convinced that no one deserves poverty, no matter what kind of bad decisions they could have possibly made. (Most often I do not think bad decisions lie behind poverty.) No matter what, children do not deserve to starve only cause their parents have made bad choices.

Often illness lies behind poverty. Anyone can become sick, any time. Then it’s good knowing there’s social security available.

Socialism is not about entitlement. You are very clueless if that’s your idea of the system I’m living in.

How can socialism be selfish? I can’t see that. I do not support this system for myself. If I only thought about myself, I would not happily pay my 30 % in taxes. Since I care about other people than myself, I pay my taxes with a big smile on my face. I have experienced this system my whole life, and I have seen how it improves people’s living conditions. All systems have faults, even the best ones. It’s hard for me to understand people who are against socialism. I can’t see how they can be driven by any other motives than selfish ones.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 1:05 pm

Miss,

Your comment is terrifying. It is the raving evidence of what happens when people have been steeped in a mindset and indoctrinated to depend on the government for their needs. Let me address a few things you brought up:

First, socialism has nothing to do with “caring”. I am a Christian and am both commanded and delighted to “care” for the needy (the truly needy). I do not need the government to steal money from me in order to distribute to whom they deem needy. If you care about poverty, what prevents you from giving on your own?

Some of the money that is stolen from me is going to pay for birth control. That is not caring for the impoverished and I don’t agree with it and I don’t have a big smile on my face about it.

Poverty. That’s an interesting word. There are those truly impoverished. As I said, not believing in socialism does NOT equate with “not caring”. We are commanded to care for those in need. Socialism is forced. True caring and giving is voluntary. You must understand the difference.

Furthermore, you have NO idea of the number of capable, able people who take gov. subsidies because it’s easier–nothing else. Conversation I heard YESTERDAY. A young man, in fact that used to live with my parents told them this:

“My (live-in) girlfriend and I (with a baby) aren’t getting married because if we do and I claim my income (he makes about as much as my husband does) we won’t qualify for food stamps.”

Pause, and think about that.

Obviously, I’m not saying everyone fits that category, but I think we’d be shocked to know how many do. We live in a country where anyone feasibly determined and able to work can make a living. I know, because we’ve done it.

And there are other, better answers than socialism. Socialism has brought a host of trouble to every country where it reigns. The answers can’t be immediate, mind you. If you know nothing else, you can’t possibly imagine anything else.

Miss November 8, 2012 - 5:00 pm

“Paus and think about what?” I am a social worker! I know perfectly well how the system works (billion times better than you do). There will always be people who will try to cheat the system. But they are a minority. The cheaters are not a reason enough to ban the system. The 2 % who cheat matters little to me, when I know that most other people will get money which they need.

This social democratic country has been doing tremendously well during the financial crisis in Europe. We have a lot of money, the government recently said so. They started putting a lot of extra billions to build the rail system and support the higher science education. You, on the other hand, have been through a financial crisis.

What misery? YOU have the highest child poverty in the developed world.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 5:27 pm

I’m glad you are pleased with socialism. For me, even if there weren’t so many examples of failures and shifts to communism (and there are), it is contrary to biblical principles of charity and love; it thwarts the Christian’s responsibility to show the love of Christ and breaks the laws of God.

Sue M. November 8, 2012 - 7:29 pm

Hi Kelly,

I’m not directly responding to how a democratic socialist government social safety net may decrease a Christian’s desire to give, but I will comment on a Christian’s response to giving in response to the U.S. national and state-level social safety nets. Even if they weren’t currently being shredded (IMHO; I realize others might think differently), why should that cause Christians to decrease their giving to Christian and other charitable organizations? The social safety net is hardly living high off the hog. Why do individuals and families living below, at or barely above poverty level still need help from food pantries, homeless shelters, home heating assistance, health care, etc. If some people refuse assistance from public or private/non-profit assistance for which they quality, more power to you and others like you. I, for one, will not criticize those who do, though.

Even a better-funded safety net wouldn’t change my giving to worthwhile organizations like the Salvation Army, faith-based homeless shelters and transitional housing, health care, and so on.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 9:29 pm

Sue,

Right. People still give to charities (and they should), but when it comes down to one neighbor asking another neighbor for financial help, *generally* (I’m not speaking about particular individuals, but an overall feeling as a result of the government interventions in place) people are inclined to resent that asking because there are so many other safety nets available.

It’s kind of the same as one-income families. When we struggled, we had family members that just expected me to get a job because “that’s the way it is”, instead of those members rallying around to help us so that I could stay home with my young children.

Jennifer November 8, 2012 - 6:40 pm

The government said so, did it? Socialism may be just dandy, until the money runs out.

Miss November 8, 2012 - 7:08 pm

If you are implying that I am a fool, you are looking at the wrong person. Sweden is the third most prosperous country in the world.
According to the Legatum Institute, Sweden’s economy is strong — and improving, too. In 2010, the Swedes had the seventh-sturdiest economy in the world; in 2011 it was ranked sixth, this year it’s ranked fifth. And what’s behind the booming Swedish economy? According to Legatum, only one other nation, to appear next on this list, better fosters entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial growth than Sweden.

Sue M. November 8, 2012 - 7:10 pm

Kelly,

You wrote, “I do not need the government to steal money from me in order to distribute to whom they deem needy.”

While not intending to pick on you personally, statements like yours make me think, “What’s wrong with that picture?” The reason why is this: We elect our representatives to the U.S. House and Senate, as well their counterparts at the state and local levels. If we have elected them in a free and fair election, how can you consider it stealing? They are fulfilling the mandate the majority (or plurality, in some cases) of voters have given them. You or I may disagree with that mandate. If so, join with your friends, neighbors, church, etc. and try to elect the candidates that represent your point of view (sorry if this sounds too obvious). Or consider running for office yourself or convince (and then support) someone who you believe would be a better candidate. We can effect change, particularly at the local level if we are willing to get involved.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 9:04 pm

Sue,

I’m not sure I’m following you. The statement I made was referring to taxes that are taken from me and given to someone else, without my input. In other words, I believe in giving to those in need; I do not feel obliged to have money stolen from me and distributed to someone else who may or may not be in need. See the example I gave about the young man and his girlfriend. Or consider the “needs” of those wanting free birth control. That’s what socialism is.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 8:45 pm

“First, socialism has nothing to do with “caring”. I am a Christian and am both commanded and delighted to “care” for the needy (the truly needy)”

Who do you think are “the truly needy” and how do you “care” for them? For someone to be worthy of your care, so they have to be Christian? Do they have to have all their children in wedlock? Would an agnostic or Muslim single mother with 6 kids living in a 2-bedroom hovel be considered needy? How would you care for them? What would you give to each of them? If a Christian widow with a few kids in a 2-bedroom apartment cam to you and she and her kids were hungry, what would you do? Please explain.

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 8:57 pm

Lisa,

“Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.” 1 Cor. 10:24

That would be the beginning of the colossal problem.

A huge sector of those on welfare would become employed with a dose of ingenuity if there were no other options. (We’re in this group.)

The rest–the truly needy–the abandoned wife, the widow, the fatherless-those we are commanded to care for, would be cared for by family first, then church and/or neighbors. (The Bible gives strong instructions about the responsibility of families….the church becomes the safety net after that.) That is, in a world where the government hasn’t taken over so much of it.

It would never be perfect (as it certainly isn’t close now) because we are imperfect and the world is fallen, and poverty “will always be with us” the Lord says. We won’t eradicate it.

We would though, as a whole, be far more compassionate and would come up with super solutions to care for the needy. Socialism removes both the incentive of the giver to give, and the incentive of the able to provide.

It’s really not rocket science.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 1:49 pm

Some other thoughts on Socialism:

“..socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.”

Read “Why Socialism Failed” for more information

Corrie November 8, 2012 - 2:16 pm

Just to add… socialism is never sought as an ends. It is ALWAYS pursued as a means or vehicle to something else- communism. Socialism’s sole purpose is to lead to communism. Thus far, communism has ALWAYS lead to unspeakable suffering and evil, and the murder of large amounts of people. Aside from the intrinsic moral evils in communism, this “system” of “government” won’t work any better in the future than it has in past due to man’s fallen nature. In other words, as long as there is still evil in this world, communism will always lead to horror for a vast majority of people. You must be careful to look at the big picture and not get caught up in the talking points of the here and now.

God bless!

Miss November 8, 2012 - 5:05 pm

Communism has nothing to do with socialism.
“I became a democratic socialist when I, as a very young man, stood eye to eye with the oppression of communism and saw the persecution of people in the communist states.” – Former prime minister Olof Palme (before he got shot, like John F. Kennedy)

Sue M. November 8, 2012 - 6:47 pm

Corrie,

I’m not here to bang the drum for socialism, but how can you say that socialism inevitably leads to capitalism? Northern European governments such as Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have socialist governments elected by their own citizens that have remained so for decades. I’m far from an expert when it comes to international politics but I’m not aware that these countries have gone communist.

Miss November 8, 2012 - 5:03 pm

Hah, why socialism failed? My country is a living example of why it succeeded.
Your country is a living example of why your system is failing (and no, you do not have socialism, except in the new health reform).

Miss November 8, 2012 - 5:07 pm

Early signs of success? We had socialism already in the 30s. 80 years later I wouldn’t call it “early signs of success” but actual success.

Jennifer November 8, 2012 - 6:36 pm

Actually, what’s failing right now is Obama’s spending, and if he tries to make things socialist we’ll sink further still.

Sunny Suzi November 8, 2012 - 11:48 pm

That spending and debt started with Ronald Regan and his trickle down economics. The only time the US hasn’t been in large debt was during the Clinton administration and George W took care of that with his invasion into Iraq looking for weapons of mass destruction that didn’t exist.

It took 8 years to get us into this mess it will take at least 8 years to get us out.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:12 pm

Weapons that don’t exist? According to who? How many warnings do we need to give before looking for possible weapons? At least Bush spent money seeking out threats instead of protecting the feelings of those who hide them.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:14 pm

The 1st four years of Obama made things worse, not better, so the last thing we need is four more years.

Sunny Suzi November 10, 2012 - 12:52 am

Seriously? That is what the Iraq war was about. Bush invaded Iraq looking for ‘weapons of mass destruction’ that Saddam Hussein supposedly had hidden somewhere in the country. They were never found, because they did not exist. Do some research and learn your history before making such embarrassing comments.

Here, I even found an article for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 2:04 pm

Suzi, if you think the fact that we were unable to find weapons means that there were none, the only person embarassing themselves is you.

Sunny Suzi November 10, 2012 - 4:34 pm
Sunny Suzi November 10, 2012 - 4:44 pm

Here is another one:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2012/0908/Did-the-CIA-just-mess-up-on-Iraq-s-weapons-of-mass-destruction

and another one

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13433-2004Oct6.html

and another one from the United Kingdom

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/07/usa.iraq1

Interestingly though, there is some speculation that Hussein did hide some chemical weapons in Syria.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:04 pm

It’s a shame, then, that Saddam Hussein refused to cooperate until after we were forced to take action, isn’t it? And what do you know, he may have hidden some elsewhere; no surprise there.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 8:48 pm

You really are content to believe in something until every molecule has been searched. So why can’t ghosts and goblins exist?

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:05 pm

To answer your snide question, Lisa, ghosts are not tangible; weapons are. But as it happens, I do believe in an Almighty God and a Holy Ghost. Are you more limited in vision?

Jennifer November 8, 2012 - 3:46 pm

The world doesn’t work that way. People don’t thrive in a world where they’ll never rise, never make more than people working 5% of the time they do, especially living in a world where the government steals from them and others.

Charity November 8, 2012 - 2:39 pm

Wonderful Kelly!

I have to say, that if all the government “help” wasn’t so easily available then there wouldn’t be so many people using it. As you said Kelly, it is the easy way. My husband’s income is such that we, a family of 6, soon to be 7, qualify for pretty much any government aid that is out there, and I would imagine for your size family, Kelly, that the same is true. We would have to just not care, and be lazy, to be willing to accept those handouts. I just don’t see how it’s right for an able bodied man to accept such. Even when my husband faced unemployment for over 18months we scraped together money and had signs made listing his carpenter abilities and placed the signs around town. He recieved work from this and would accept pretty much any work he could find, even scooping cow manure, loading it in a wheelbarrow and rolling it to the other side of this man’s property. He would have rather been drug behind a semitruck than to have the government put food on our table and pay our doctor bills and rent. He sees it as his job to provide for our family and to look to our heavenly Father for wisdom and guidance in how to do so, not to “government daddy” with his hands outstretched saying “gimme, gimme”. I know if we can do it, than anyone can. We could eat better on food stamps than we do on our meager grocery budget…but we have the desire to work hard, stretch our dollars and watch GOD meet our needs, not the government. Not at all saying we are better than anyone, but if more people would live like this, trying, putting for the effort and working hard…not near as many people would “need” the aid they take from the government.

lucyt November 8, 2012 - 9:46 pm

Thank you I am proud and so happy to hear of a family who has not gave in to the goverment bribes.My husband is now working three jobs and we don’t see much of him 4 years ago he worked one.We have 7 in our family and even people in our church has asked why he works so hard when there is goverment help,why will he not allow you to work,why do you not put the kids in school? You would probably even get free meals.FREE HA BRIBE BLOOD MONEY.I want to add my husband has not been laid off we do not have more debt nor have we added to our family in the past four years and my husband has gotten promoted at work that is how bad it has gotten in the last four years as I am sure anyone who shopes for food will tell you.

ange November 8, 2012 - 3:52 pm

I’m a conservative parent but a social liberal. Homeschooled my kids until just recently (and a member of HSDLA) because I couldn’t mentally or physically handle being a 24-hour care caregiver any longer and still be able to provide my children with the emotional and physical care they need because I do not get much other support–government or family, except for a day or dollar here and there when in extreme crisis–and could no longer afford the private therapies my children need (nor as 1 person can I do it effectively while my husband works 12-14 hour days 6 days a week). Do any of you have children with significant disabilities…not just learning disabilities, which are definitely a struggle, but also children who require thousands and thousands of dollars in healthcare costs, much of which is NOT covered by health insurance or copays and deductibles are out of reach? We currently receive no finacial support (other than case management and now school) and are growing montly debt. We had to move (our mortgage payment is a $700/month more affordable than renting) to put our kids in a safe, supportive environment so that we could get therapies that way instead of running us further into debt…we slavaged and DIY’d much of our house, we don’t pay for cable or netflix or manicures or telephone, clothes are handmedowns or thrifted. We have internet so I can do my part-time job, which is no longer much of anything since my previous employer now sends my work to their employees in India because money and time saved is more important than quality. We have cellphones because my husband gets them through work. I grow, raise, harvest, and preserve much our food. Many meals are nothing more than PB&J and a fruit or veggie. We don’t go out, don’t have autoloans…I’m wracking my braing trying to figure out what you expect us to do? We are on a waiting list for a government waiver to help us with some care issues, I can’t get a job outside of the home because even though my kids may be in school, I am on call constantly if I need to get my oldest home for any number of issues. Even though our medical expenses outnumber our income, we do not qualify for medicare, but if something came up that would help us, I should not be made to feel like a failure for excepting the help. What if my husband dies? Our term life will only go so far. How do I save for my children’s future needs so that they DON’T need assistance if we can’t get our head above water?) I can think of a million of reasons for everyone to need help at one time or another besides being “lazy”. We follow dave ramsey’s plan and we are trying trying trying. We STOPPED having children because having two children with disabilities, we thought it to be fiscally irresponsible since we can’t afford the two we have…so???

Candace November 8, 2012 - 4:31 pm

I think you need to pray, and leave it in the Lord’s hands. He WILL provide if you trust Him in everything, and He will never give you more than you can handle.

ange November 8, 2012 - 4:52 pm

🙂 That’s what my husband’s cousin said to me too…until she told us when my son was two years old that she couldn’t handle watching him anymore as of the day she told us(starting a long list of reasons why I eventually couldn’t work my previous 10 years of employment nor my typical 50 hours a week and eventually had to stay home and cut our income by 60%)…the only time we were debt free but miserable and unhappy parents.

Sobriquet November 9, 2012 - 2:58 am

In my experience, “leave it in the Lord’s hands” is often code for “I’m unwilling to help you and think you would be morally flawed to ask for other help.”

Ange makes an excellent point that she’s trying hard, has made tons of sacrifices and is still struggling to support her two disabled kids – and despite all that, Kelly and Candace and many others reading would look down on her for taking government assistance. You’d look down on her for doing everything she can to support her disabled kids. Read that last sentence and let it sink in.

Here’s what it comes down to for me: I believe that I have a moral obligation to support people in need, especially children. There are lots of ways to accomplish that. In my case, I give money and I volunteer, and just as importantly, I vote for programs that support the needy. Yes, social support programs cost money, but I’m willing to pay higher taxes if it means that fewer people go to bed hungry, fewer children have little to no healthcare, more people can get education and jobs.

Nicole November 9, 2012 - 5:06 pm

I agree 100%!

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 2:07 pm

And you look down on people like Kelly and Candace because they prefer to help them out of their own choice, instead of letting the government do it for them. Helping the needy, and voting for allowing a government to enforce this by often defining the needy as adults who need help not getting pregnant, or getting low-cost abortions, are two separate things.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:06 pm

Since Jesus doesn’t walk around with a checkbook providing, the help is going to come from the pockets of others, how much are you going to give?

How do you know the lord’s way of providing and trying to make sure the poor and struggling are helped is something other than the social system we have now? How do you know he didn’t lay it on FDR’s heart to start the welfare system because those who could help the poor weren’t actually helping the poor? The current system very well could be the way the lord is trying to make sure people get help, but you are thwarting it.

How much financial help do you and Kelly give to the poor, and how do you decide who is worthy of your help? Making a meal now and then for someone doesn’t help them get any closer to being completely self-sufficient the way government welfare system requires people to get training. There are cheats, but not all of us are.

My family is struggling horribly and can’t come up with the money for some medical tests for our autistic child to get the specialized therapy she needs. We get food stamps, but can’t get cash aid because I don’t have a job and can’t get one because there are no affordable day cares around here, and even fewer that will take an autistic child who is still in diapers, and we don’t have any family or friends who can take our kids for 9 hours a day for me to go get a job. Without me working or looking for work outside the home, no cash for us. You tell me how we should handle this. You tell me what “care” people like you and Kelly are willing to give so that my family and others like mine don’t have to go to the welfare office to ask for what help we can get so our kids can eat and be warm at night. Tell me what “care” you and Kelly will give since we can’t pay for our child’s medical testing and don’t qualify for help paying for it.

How are you so sure that the welfare there is isn’t the lord’s way of providing some for us because people like you and Kelly, who speak so fiercely against it, aren’t willing to do anything for people like us?

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 9:14 pm

Lisa–I’m very sorry you are struggling…I do know what it feels like to wonder where the next dollar will come from.

To answer your first question, I don’t think socialism or welfare is God’s idea because, as I mentioned earlier, it’s a form of stealing, and that is never God’s plan. Secondly, God’s plan is far more efficient than our current one. While “the poor will always be with us”, his plan wouldn’t incur a heap of other societal ills (we are going bankrupt, as a country, because of government program spending).

Do you have a husband? And do you have a church? Do you have any family that can pay for the tests?

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:17 pm

Please tell Kelly where she said she will do nothing for people like you. God does not put it on people’s hearts to forcibly take money from others.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 5:06 pm

Ange,

You are right; everyone needs help from time to time and it is perfectly acceptable to get it. That still doesn’t make “socialism”, which is the subject here, a good answer. If your family isn’t able to help, your church falls in line next, assuming you have one.

One example of why socialism is bad is precisely this: when there are so many government programs to be utilized, it robs us of our need/desire to show compassion and help. In other words, if you need help, most people are inclined to say, “there’s a program for you” than they would be if people were more dependent on each other and the church.

I understand this is personal to you, as it is to everyone. My “answer” is to keep doing what you’re doing, ask the Lord for direction (you didn’t mention being a Christian; I’m assuming), and look for ingenuitive (I made that word up) ways to make extra money.

If you don’t know my story, my husband and I have lived off of very little income (and still do). He has delivered pizza at night, picked up dead chickens early in the morning and lots of stuff in between. I have used sweet potatoes that someone gave us and made dozens of pies and sold them locally to our neighbors to come up with Christmas money. I’ve ebayed, sold coupons, wrapped gifts with whatever materials we had, and started this blog, in part, out of our need for more income. We have scraped a lot, and it has been good for all of us. Some of the things I’m most thankful for our has been our dependence on the Lord for times we didn’t think we’d get through.

The bottom line is that sometimes we don’t make as much as we’d like. Trust Him for today. In all our years we have yet to be forsaken.

ange November 8, 2012 - 6:07 pm

I appreciate your response. I do most of the things you’ve mentioned, but I have a strong need to provide service and charity, I do it for free. *shrug* I give away a lot of our eggs, what I can, I pick up trash on the roads near our house, clean horse stalls to be neighborly, babysit to allow others to make their appointments, give away the coupons I don’t use, donate, freecycle, and handdown items since that’s how I acquire many of them, I sell items on CL to pay for items purchase on there. I counsel special needs parents, volunteer my time to take notes, teach skills to parents to advocate, take phone calls to parents in crisis…all for free and organized by government organizations. I will be starting a new in-home business related to microfarming and am reupholstering items for people. I despise pity and try to avoid all private charity because of the attitudes and judgments thrown out in some of the comments. I don’t necessarily agree with socialism, but I have been humbled to know what goes around comes around. I have a crazy ethic where I don’t believe in using insurance to pay for a new roof due to weather damage even though it is a 15 year old roof and need to be replaced anyhow…I go back to the store if they charge me LESS than they were supposed to and pay the difference, etc etc. I put plenty of time and energy into our nation and its citizens so I’m not sure why I should feel like I’m lazy or a freeloader if I receive assistance in another form? My mom died when she was 31 and her Social Security went to benefit the lives of my sister and I at 4 and 10 years old. Should I feel guilty about that too? I know tone doesn’t come out properly online, but my tone is very calm and explanatory. I just like to push boundaies and give people info to chew on. 🙂 I try to educate others that there are many many people out there like me that contribute to society in a lot of ways besides monetarily. There are people of all levels of wealth and poverty that lie, cheat, and steal. They do not speak for everyone. My husband and I were both born and raised Catholic with Catholic roots back to our familys’ homelands, but frankly we do’t practice in church anymore because of the above attitudes and the way we have been treated because of our children and their disabilities. Always fun to be told your kids are accepted but cannot be “allowed” to attend mass, sunday school, bible school, etc. But we still give give give no matter how much we have lost or how many times we’ve been kicked down. It’s just how I’m made.

Sunny Suzi November 9, 2012 - 2:37 am

Amen.

Nicole November 9, 2012 - 5:08 pm

Ange, you sound like an amazing woman! You are taking care of your family and whether that means you took government assistance or not, you are doing the right thing. Blessings. I will pray that you feel relief from guilt.

Sobriquet November 9, 2012 - 3:21 am

“…when there are so many government programs to be utilized, it robs us of our need/desire to show compassion and help.”

This strikes me as a strawman. There’s absolutely no reason, nor any evidence, that government programs would diminish empathy and a sense of responsibility for one’s neighbors. Like everyone else, I developed empathy when I was a child, before I had any idea what a government program was. As I grew up I learned responsibility for myself, to myself and for others, and when I found out that the government would give poor people food, I thought it was awesome that President (I was 6 – as far as I was concerned, the government consisted of the President, the Mayor and a nebulous group called Congress) and I did the same thing!

Leaving strawman issues aside, who cares whether people give personally to charities or if the government uses some tax money for charitable causes? As long as the people who need it are getting it, I’m not overly fussed over the process. What matters is whether the money is honestly gotten*, fairly given and is helping those who need it.

*I know you’ll probably take issue with this bit, since you think the government is stealing money from you via taxes. However, that’s a different argument, and I hope that you’ll acknowledge the larger point that I’m trying to make rather than latching onto the stolen vs. not-stolen debate.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 8:37 am

Sobriquet,

And your moral obligation is correct. But remember: while some of that tax money will help those legitimately in need, much of it will not. Especially with the new components of Obama care. The conversation I mentioned earlier about the young man is not the exception; many, many capable, working people take your money. Imagine if you could take ALL of that money and dole it out to the truly needy….not only would that be more productive in helping people with real needs, but it would not create a system that is ultimately harmful to everyone. Socialism was great idea; it just doesn’t work.

Sobriquet November 9, 2012 - 5:33 pm

Actually, if I doled out all the money I paid in taxes to the truly needy, it wouldn’t do much more good than what the government does. You see, the government is a bulk buyer. Much like Costco or other wholesale stores, the government can get more for my dollar than I can. Even better, they can reach more people than I can.

While we’re at it, let’s talk about this concept of “truly” needy. For instance, the young man and his girlfriend who don’t want to get married so that they don’t reduce their food stamps. You say that because he makes as much as your husband he doesn’t need those food stamps, but you have zero information about his life besides the fact that he has a girlfriend, a child and qualifies for food stamps. He might have major expenses outside the usual shelter and supplies. He might be supporting more people – parents, siblings, nieces/nephews – than you know about. He might be trying to better his life and long-term income by going to school. He might not actually make as much as your husband. I’m unwilling to judge this man’s neediness on such little information. Same goes for anyone else.

More than that, if I’m going to judge someone’s level of need, I’d need lots of private information about that person, and I’m not about to demand that. How arrogant it would be of me to assume that because I have money to give I also have the right to demand all the information about a person’s situation. How humiliating it would be for the person to have to come begging to me, to feel indebted to me as their neighbor. If I truly believe that the needy deserve my assistance – and I do – then I’m not going to make it any harder for them than it has to be. It’s a lot kinder to a person to create and support programs where people can get the help that they deserve than to put them in a situation where they feel like they have to ask a favor.

Last but not least, and only tangentially related, taxes go to more than just social support. Roads, infrastructure, emergency responders, maintaining a sanitary enviroment et al. I’m happy to pay for those things.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 5:40 pm

Sobriquet,

Actually I know everything about him. I know his spending habits, about the house he just purchased, about his family, since you asked.

Government programs work well in THEORY. And while there are some who are truly helped, it doesn’t begin to make up for all the damage that these systems do. And if the Bible says that organic giving works, it works. We’ll always have a fallen world with its problems and needs. And we must always be seeking solutions to those needs. This isn’t a “my opinion” issue; what began with good intentions has only increased our societal troubles–both for the needy and otherwise. We are on the brink of economic failure where everyone will be truly needy because of a system that is faulty. If we really care, we’d be opposed.

Lori November 9, 2012 - 5:55 am

Ange, I want to hug you. You are my hero today.

ange November 9, 2012 - 9:56 am

Ha, the only thing that makes me more uncomfortable than pity, is praise. I believe in good character and service and teach my children such. Most days I just live my life, but I don’t take it lightly when I’m called a freeloader, lol. I’m pretty sure I have some political genetic mutation since most of my paternal and maternal family is uber conservative. Oddly none of my siblings are politically conservative even though most of our family generation (cousins are). I think my dad is a closet socialist even though he says one thing he’s always lived his life the way I do. He’s MY hero. 🙂

I guess I could be stalking this blog; I love a good debate, but especially a good conversation!

ange November 8, 2012 - 3:57 pm

And the only person I have ever slept with is my husband. Apparently that matters to you and Mr. Farris.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:12 pm

I’m in the double digits. This probably means I should get rid of the food stamps, use my husband’s income to buy food instead of pay the rent, lose our home, use what money’s left to feed the kids until we’ve got no more money and my husband loses his job over a lack of personal hygiene because the homeless don’t have regular access to showers, and then, when all the money is gone, my kids should starve to death because it’s the lord’s will because their mom is some kind of a whore.

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 9:18 pm

Lisa,

I’d rather you comment, if you wish to, with a bit more tact and not anger. I understand your frustration, but it is futile to aim it at me. I would mention, from our own experience, that it has been a life-saver for us, several times, for my husband to get an extra job–delivering pizza at night was one of the best things he did and got us ahead a bit so we could figure things out, get our debts paid, etc. I thrive helping people find ways to save money and stretch their income, and I would be glad to offer some practical things we’ve done.

laura November 8, 2012 - 6:42 pm

I think I understand what Kelly is trying to say…And let’s not get our panties in a wad…come to understand, there are times when EVERYONE needs help at one time or another…I have a brother (whom I love dearly), who has cystic fybrosis, and has needed to have a medical assistance card, to pay for his very expensive medical costs…he however, at 34 years old, works a full time job, goes to school and lives a full life…I know that my family would not have been able to afford the bills incurred after his diagosis…and the small 20-50 member churches, while they may press a $20 into your hand every now and then, couldn’t really help with much either. When I was pregnant with my 3rd baby, I ended up going on medicaid for a short time, because we were trying to pay for everything out of pocket while living on a pastor’s income of less than $25K/year…with no insurance. However, when our cirumstances changed and my husband got a full time job with insurance, we called and ASKED to be taken off the list, I might add, since then, our income and family size would qualify us to receive help too, but we also choose to live simply than to take help. I think Kelly’s point is that if the government chooses to have some sort of aid available, it should be short term in MOST cases. Also, there was a lady at my church who had 4 kids when her husband died from cancer very young. She accepted SSI so that she could raise her kids and not deprive them of a mother. And she spent VERY wisely, and her kids were well behaved and stable. I think what Kelly gets frustrated about is when people on govt assistance live high on the hog on OUR tax money. I was just in the grocery store a week or two ago, and the lady in front of me paid with the access debit card, and she had a huge pork loin(about $25), name brand coffee and sugar, and might I add she was about 200lbs overweight…not trying to pick on plump people, but apparently she wasn’t skimping, but getting overweight on the public tab. Or when poeple using access cards have the newest cell phones and Ipads and such…I know that if I had disabled children, I would look for any and all ways I could to help them, and if some of it was through govt assistance, I would do it…AN old neighbor of mine who had a disabled daughter needed a ride to the store once…she had a “back” problem…and claimed to need a wheel chair to get around…yet at the store, she bent over and picked up a 20 pound bag of potatoes with one hand…not a whimper, not a whine… I would say, in so far as it depends on each of us, let us care for our own lives/families as much as we are able…and if we use any govt assistance at all, try and be worthy of and grateful for the assistance received…and not abuse or defraud our fellow citizens.
I’d also like to make a point, in the past when charity was private, poor people had to receive their help at the hands of the rich…and I am sure it was convicting to be rich and doing your duty, see the difficult situations in which people lived…and would spur feelings of compassion in you…rather than knowing that there are “poor” people out there, but not knowing any, never helped any, because the govt does it…

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:29 pm

“the lady in front of me paid with the access debit card, and she had a huge pork loin(about $25), name brand coffee and sugar, and might I add she was about 200lbs overweight…”

In my family, a $25-pork loin would last a while. It costs less per pound to buy big cuts of meat. I can buy a 5-pound chicken for 89 cents a pound, or I can buy a small 1pound pack of cut up chicken for $5.99. Should I buy the smaller pack, even though it’s less food?

RIght now pork loin is $1.39 a pound. Hamburger is $4.99. I bought a loin today, so I know today’s pricing. Shame on me for buying a big loin that will last many meals? My one splurge is good coffee which costs $1 more per can. I need a lot of it to stay away as long as I must to take care of my children, including an autistic child who sleeps only about 3 hours a day. Many days I drink only coffee and don’t eat food to make up for the coffee.

Cheap foods usually are high in starches and carbs. A box of macaroni and cheese is a lot cheaper than whole wheat pasta and freshly-made cheese sauce that is healthier. Add a can of chili bought on sale for $1 and you get some protein to that meal. It’s also got a lot of fat and salt on top of the carbs and preservatives. That sort of diet will make you big if you have to eat it long enough.

How do you know coffee isn’t a treat for her? Or even on sale? Did you run back and check? And sugar is the cheapest sweetener, even though it’s the highest calorie. It could have been on sale too. How do you know that that loin wouldn’t be for a bunch of meals?

I would be looking askew at someone claiming to have a back injury bad enough to need a wheel chair who just hoisted a 20-pound sack of anything with not even a whinge. But how do you know she did that? Did you personally monitor her ever action? Did you watch her face close enough to see if her eyes squinted as she tried hiding pain because she didn’t want to ask for help?

“I’d also like to make a point, in the past when charity was private, poor people had to receive their help at the hands of the rich…and I am sure it was convicting to be rich and doing your duty, see the difficult situations in which people lived…and would spur feelings of compassion in you…”

If things happened that way, there never would have been any need for help. Take a look at pictures from the Great Depression. There were extremely rich people then. Why weren’t they helping? Greed. The New Deal came about because the rich weren’t helping.

How degrading to say that the poor should go to the hands of the rich to ask for help, the rich who would never go out of their way to find poor in need to freely give help so desperately needed.

weblogs.cltv.com/news/local/chicago/the%20great%20depression%202.gif

Look at that picture of a grief-stricken mother with children who were clearly too ashamed to show their faces. Where is a rich person to help her? During the Depression THERE WERE NO JOBS. People traveled the country seeking any work they could. The rich started losing a bit of money as their goods stopped selling because no one had money to buy. So the rich hoarded what they had. Why didn’t any of them help that woman feel her kids or make a job so she could earn money? GREED. Most of the rich get rich because they are greedy and want more and more. They could spend a ton of money helping those in need and keep enough in their accounts to support the rest of their lives, but most want to leave the biggest bank accounts to their kids they can instead of helping the starving and sick.

Take your idea that the rich would feel compassion when the millionaires and billionaires of today who give a hoot are the minority and shove that idea where the sun don’t shine.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:52 pm

“Cheap foods usually are high in starches and carbs”

That’s a good example of why overweight people shouldn’t be judged for getting food stamps.

“But how do you know she did that? Did you personally monitor her ever action?”

You seem rather eager to monitor the charity and motives of people around here.

Erin K November 8, 2012 - 7:46 pm

I don’t think anyone is saying that some amount of social welfare is a bad thing, rather it’s the changing nature of the “American Spirit” that is disheartening. Instead of neighbors helping out by sending work to those they know that need some money, people assume the government will take care of them and because of this the nature of charity has changed. I fear that we are so far down the slippery slope that we will never be able to fix our country.

ange November 9, 2012 - 9:33 am

Read charity’s comment #10 stating any able bodied person who accepts social welfare is lazy. It wound let me copy to quote here, but it’s up there. I am able bodied. Most days I’m able minded too, lol !

Charity November 9, 2012 - 7:37 pm

I said I didn’t see how it was right for any able bodied man to accept such help (government aid). I specifically said MAN, because I believe what the Bible says…that a man should provide for his family (actually the Bible says that a man that doesn’t is worse than an infidel). I know there are different family situations, but I was talking about “typically speaking”.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:30 pm

So how about if a wife signs up for aid?

Elizabeth McBride November 8, 2012 - 9:31 pm

The photo you used at the beginning of your post is the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima by United States Marines. It’s actually a reenactment done after the battle for the purpose of taking a photo to remember all who died there. Does your love for our country and for freedom mean that you too have served in the military? If not, why not? Or if not the military have you served with another service organization like Vista, Peace Corps, Habitat for Humanity, Americorps? What I learned in my 12 years of public school was that I was blessed to live in a great country. I learned about the fight for blacks and women to get the right to vote. I never was taught that the government owes me anything. John Kennedy spoke when I was in high school. He said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” And I took his words to heart. Did you? I served my country. Did you?

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 9:45 pm

Elizabeth,

Your comment is stabbing and off-topic. But to answer you, yes, I serve my country everyday. I *lived* a charity all my life–I didn’t have to go abroad. I am surely thankful for those who serve our country in the military, but I don’t belittle those who serve in a million other ways…and you shouldn’t either. And I think it is unbecoming for a servant to boast.

Charity November 8, 2012 - 10:25 pm

Kelly, you are so kind! Oy! Me? My chin will surely be bruised from my jaw hitting the floor!

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 10:31 pm

LOL!

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:32 pm

Yeah, you’ve received a lot of charity all right. While your uninsured home was rebuilt after the tornado and you got a fancy new sewing machine and a bunch of other stuff, you have done exactly what for the victims of Sandy? Praying for others to give doesn’t count. What have you sent to them in return for the good fortune you received?

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 9:53 pm

Lisa,

You might notice the note in the comment directions:

“Dissenting comments are welcome only in the spirit of “iron sharpening iron”; hateful or angry responses will be removed at my discretion.”

You’re not interested in a discussion here, only insults, and so I’ll ask you to bow out now.

And since you mentioned it, what happened to us after the tornado is precisely what it CAN look like. God’s ways work. We experienced it and it was miraculous. And I wouldn’t think of publicly disclosing the help that we give to others. If I did, you’d be embarrassed for presuming.

Laura November 8, 2012 - 10:29 pm

I hate to break it to you Word Warrior, but birth control is hardly the worst thing your tax money is going to. How about that meaningless war that conservatives started? Your money builds bombs that kill children. Your money goes to build schools in Iraq. Two things I am sure you are against. The Iraq war bleeds US tax dollar money and it ends their the lives to men, women, and children who were never terrorists. At least liberals want to use government money to help Americans.

Jennifer November 8, 2012 - 10:49 pm

That conservatives started? LOL We’re more against using tax money to kill unborn babies and pay for the loose sex lives of others’; that’s not “helping Americans”.

Laura November 9, 2012 - 12:02 am

No. Bush was more about making money from war than he was against abortion. You are wrong. Planned Parenthood got more money from Bush than it did Clinton.

Laura November 9, 2012 - 12:10 am

Generally speaking, Conservatives were pro-war in Iraq (pro-killing of women and children) and Liberals were against. Research which politicians at the time were for and against it. Hillary Clinton was one big exception, she voted for the Iraq war resolution. But, overall, the record speaks for itself.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:04 pm

The Muslims, which liberals coddle, began that war, and perhaps you should worry what they do with women and children. Just about everyone was ready for action against terrorists, then suddenly some behaved as Bush was a bloodthirsty creep who stood alone in the cause.

Sunny Suzi November 10, 2012 - 1:00 am

Another person who needs to learn some history. The terrorists that flew the planes on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. We should have invaded Iraq back in the 1990’s when we went to war for Kuwait. That would have solved a whole lot of future problems and saved numerous lives, but George Bush weaseled out.

The Iraqi war was all about George W. Bush and his ego, don’t kid yourself.

And as far as unborn children go, when all of the children that are living in this world go to bed each night with a full tummy, in a safe environment, in a soft bed and have the opportunity to go to school the next day if they so choose, I will worry about the unborn. A million children starve to death every single day world wide ~ that is horrifying in my world.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 2:03 pm

I never said the hijackers came from Iraq, Suzi, so your unsunny stab at patronization is lost. Iraq became a problem when they refused to be open about possible weapons, and since they were full of people with the same beliefs as those who crashed into our buildings, having proven over and over what they’re capable of, we took action. As for children, your argument is quite interesting; until there is a perfect world, you say you will not worry about the unborn. There will always be poor, there will always be people struggling in love with family; some of the richest people struggle the hardest with the latter, in fact. I don’t find the idea of “sparing” people from pain by piercing their skulls, tearing apart their limbs, or poisoning them with saline a very Christian or merciful idea.

Sunny Suzi November 10, 2012 - 4:53 pm

You wrote:

The Muslims, which liberals coddle, began that war, and perhaps you should worry what they do with women and children.

If they were not responsible for 9/11 how did they begin the war? Did they invade our country? 99% of Muslims are people who just want to live their lives, to say they are all terrorists is the same as saying that the Westboro Baptist Church represents all Christians.

As far as a perfect world goes, I can use the same argument in regards to abortion. There has always been abortion, there were always be abortion legal or not. I can do something about hungry, homeless kids. I can provide them with food, I can provide them with shelter. I cannot stop a woman who is determined to have an abortion and I don’t know that I want to. As a foster parent, I have seen the results of children that are not wanted, the lives they live and the abuse they suffer.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:08 pm

Please point out where I said that ALL Muslims are responsible for 9/11; I think my meaning was clear. If you’re going to dismiss abortion by saying “there will always be abortion”, then I guess I shouldn’t bother trying to feed hungry children, should I? But I do bother, because we can lessen it; we can also lessen abortions. If you don’t know whether you want to stop a woman from making such a brutal mistake, that’s quite an alarming thing to say.

Laura November 11, 2012 - 12:31 am

We cannot control what terrorist do. We can protect our borders, that is Biblical. A war for weapons that do not and never existed is not. The person that said you need a history lesson was correct. 9/11 had nothing to do with the Iraq War.

Laura November 11, 2012 - 12:36 am

“and since they were full of people with the same beliefs as those who crashed into our buildings”

No, they weren’t of the same belief. Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden did not like each other or share the same beliefs. They may have been enemies of the US, but they were so for different reasons.

Jennifer November 11, 2012 - 1:11 am

To Laura: Sweetie, I was alive and a young woman when all this occured; it is not “history” to me. If we suspect a dangerous tyrant has WMD, and he retorts by refusing, over and over, to comply with us, AND we’ve just suffered an attack from people living the kind of life he did, that of terrorists, no one should be surprised by our reaction. Saddam brought the invasion of his country upon himself.

And yes, they do have the same beliefs; as in, “Kill the infidels! Death to America!” beliefs. Now, both those dictators are dead, and both brought it on themselves.

SunnySuzi November 11, 2012 - 1:57 am

By saying ‘The Muslims’ you are indicating that you are referring to all Muslims. If you had said ‘the Muslim terrorists’, then that would have been a completely different statement.

As far as children go, it is apparent to me that you care more for the unborn child than you do for a living child. The inference is in your statements. I would give more credit to your beliefs if you have ever taken a child into your home that has been abused and neglected because the mother never wanted that child in the first place. If you have held that child at night when they screamed from the nightmares from the abuse. If you have helped a pre-teen girl find a cute dress for her sixth grade graduation that covered her burn scars from where her mother poured scalding hot water on her because she was crying too much as an infant. If you have had to discreetly explain to a doctor that the 3 year old little boy you are caring for is the result of a 20 man raping his 13 year old sister. In front of that little boy and not cringe at the look of disgust on his face. Yes, I care more about living children than I do about the unborn. It is my belief that a child that is aborted goes right back to Heaven. Do I think abortion is a good thing, of course not, but I prefer it to children being abused here on earth. To me that is evil. So what have you done for a child that was not your own today?

Laura November 11, 2012 - 9:49 am

Jennifer, Your condescending use of “sweetie” is pissing me off… You may have been alive for it, but you were not informed about it. I was actually in the Army during the invasion of Iraq and, through the years (althought not at the time), I have tried to keep myself informed.

But it evens out because I have the knowledge that my belief is correct and you do not understand the Iraq War or your own hypocrisy. You are hypocrite because killing innocent people in war is ok but abortion is not. We were not in danger from Iraq. The Iraqi army was not going to invade America.

No one is surprised America invaded Iraq… Not after Korea and Vietnam.

Research 3 things for me. 1) Who the Iraq War benefits economically and their ties to Bush. 2) Biblical reasons for war. 3) Should a Christian nation 3)How poorly planned the Iraq War was from the start (no exit strategy) Almost like, from the start, we were meant to stay there for a long time…

You are looking for reasons as to why you lost an election. But you dont want to admit it could be the GOPs fault that people dont trust them not to spend so much on needless wars…

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:34 pm

Many MARRIED women use birth control so that they don’t have more children than that families can afford. Not having more kids than you can afford is a great way to avoid ever needing help.

Would you rather have “loose” people use birth control and not have kids, or for them to have lots of babies that will either starve to death or need food stamps that you are so against giving and won’t buy their food yourself? You sure like to punish kids for what you see as sins of the parents.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:39 pm

Once again, Lisa, you need to point out where I said, where ANYONE said, we don’t give to the needy. In fact, point out where I said people shouldn’t use birth control! LOL, I use it myself! (But no one else buys it for me, and I don’t squander anyone’s money on it for the use of loose sex; I required it for medical needs). Although I am considering dropping it, since it’s been a bane in my existence.

Lori November 11, 2012 - 12:12 am

Jennifer, don’t you understand your contradiction there? Hmm… perhaps you type too fast, so slow down little then.

Jennifer November 11, 2012 - 12:25 am

And what is my contradiction? I believe it’s not immoral to use birth control, just to expect the rest of the country to pay for it.

Laura November 8, 2012 - 10:36 pm

I agree with you that you serve your country everyday. You are raising good citizens. That is far, far more important than going overseas. You are working in this country to make it better for future generations. I might have a completely different political opinion than you, but I respect the work you do.

Word Warrior November 8, 2012 - 10:37 pm

Thank you, Laura.

Natalie November 8, 2012 - 11:48 pm

Wowzer. Why are socialists stalking your blog? Kelly…it’s because YOU ROCK! You are a fascinating woman who can intelligently articulate the truth with a smile! 😉 They adore you, and it’s infuriating! Their predictable comments and your “out of the box” responses (along with some of the other fabulous responses from your readers) are what make this blog such a blast to read. Chin up, girl! Think of history. You’re in good company.

6 arrows November 9, 2012 - 12:15 am

You calling me a socialist, Natalie? I resemble that remark 😛

Miss November 9, 2012 - 9:06 am

“Why are socialists stalking your blog?”

When I notice something so out of touch with reality, I will comment. I am shocked that someone who is more than twice the age of my little sister, would know less and yet insist she knows it all. When you insist on taking a subject further which you know so little about, you will make yourself look like a fool. To make up schemas or stereotypes on your limited experiences and then insist they are legitimate, is not wise. Example:
“Furthermore, you have NO idea of the number of capable, able people who take gov. subsidies because it’s easier–nothing else. Conversation I heard YESTERDAY. A young man, in fact that used to live with my parents told them this.” (It was quite amusing considering she doesn’t what I know or don’t know. To be lectured by someone who has such limited experiences about “socialism”, while I am well-educated and experienced in that field, didn’t amuse me at first.)

But no, her argument was not intelligently articulate. To refute my argument, as if she belongs to some kind of intellectual circle where differing opinions like my own “is the raving evidence of what happens when people have been steeped in a mindset and indoctrinated to depend on the government for their needs” is yet another informal fallacy. When she can’t meet my argument, all she has is to refer to her faith, which is yet another informal fallacy. To say that socialism breaks the law of God, is nothing more than believing what you want to believe. If you do not need justification to hold a belief, then where’s the actual validity of that statement?
And when your premises are false, so will your conclusion be. Your own hopes that something would/should work doesn’t make it true. “If your family isn’t able to help, your church falls in line next, assuming you have one.” Those who have no family or church, what are they to do? Or do you only consider Christians to be worthy of help? Is that the main issue here? Is that why you think you should deem who is needy or not? After all, there are educated and experienced people (for example social workers like me) who are qualified to decide who has needs and who has not. You are not qualified to do so.

I originally commented because I have had this idea that Kelly is somewhat intelligent and therefore should be possible to reason with (I didn’t even notice all the cognitive distortions, except for the polarized thinking, until yesterday).

To imply that I can’t imagine anything else if I don’t know anything else is also such a error. I do not think you should assume so much, Kelly. I used to have a double citizenship. Even though I told you I have experienced this system my whole life, it certainly doesn’t mean I haven’t experienced other systems as well. That’s one reason why my mother had to struggle so much. She was (is) an immigrant. No one wanted to hire her considering she didn’t know the language. She was well-educated and a had a degree in economy. She did all those things you mentioned, Kelly. No one would have accepted if she had wanted to stay at home with us, although all of her children were below school-age.

My mum didn’t come here to live on the system. She belonged to the middle class in her home country, so she had no problem providing for herself before she came here. She came to Sweden out of love and married my (poor) biological father. When my father was still in the picture, we lived out at the country-side where my dad killed rabbits (hares?) out in the forests, to have some meat at the table. My mum woke up early mornings to gather berries, which she could later sell. She did all this while being heavily pregnant (because she had no other choice). My mum could have gone to the social services earlier, but she was stubborn that she would make it by herself. In the end, she didn’t make it and had to go to the social services. It was the last call. The social services questioned her because she had allowed her children to live in that poverty. ->

My mum said she was constantly scared the social workers would take her children away from her (I don’t know how social workers worked during the 80s and I don’t know if my mum’s fear were rational or not, but I know that she was very uncomfortable and miserable over the fact that she had to ask for help). Asking for help was not an easy task for her. People who would be granted help do not always seek help because they are scared of humiliation and so on.

My mum worked evenings and uncomfortable hours, while neighbours were kind enough to help her baby-sit her children. (Nowadays we have day-care at evening and night-time, but we didn’t back then.) At day-time we – children of the 80s, went to day-care.

Why I am sharing this with you, is to show you that you are not the only who struggle. My mother certainly didn’t refuse to work like you do/did. I don’t think your struggle or poverty is greater than the one I have been through and other people go through. My mother couldn’t make it all by herself, at least not for a couple of years, but she didn’t refuse to work. When I hear that you refuse to work, and expect people to help you, I can’t see how you are better than us – “the socialists”, which you seem to think steal other people’s money. Neither my mum or I expect people to help us. We would only do so, if we know that we have done everything we could possibly do.
I won’t comment anymore, but I think you should know that being Christian doesn’t automatically make you a good person. Being a good person makes you good.

Btw. Kelly has taught me something about the backfire effect; how individuals challenged with evidence contradictory to their beliefs, instead will reject the evidence and become an even firmer supporter of the initial belief. That has been an interesting experience.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:05 pm

Out of touch with reality, lol. Kelly never claimed to know it all; you don’t have to know ALL to know a bad system for just about everybody.

Iron Sharpening November 10, 2012 - 6:45 pm

Jennifer – Did you read what Miss wrote? Cause if you did, your response shows that you clearly missed the point of her post. There were so many other comments you could have made, but you absolutely refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, in the smallest chance in the world that socialism works for Sweden. You are so blind to anther’s point of view that you couldn’t even be kind enough to compliment her mother on showing her children that hard work and perseverance pays off in the end. The first thing I thought after reading her comment was how lucky she was to have such an amazing mom. No, I’m not a socialist and believe in good old fashioned democracy, however, I can listen to another person’s point of view and usually find something positive to say about it.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:14 pm

When someone begins a comment by making inaccurate comments about an intelligent and good person I’ve known for years, I’m given little incentive to heed their opinion. Socialism is even more an example of this; how far should I take it, Iron? If someone says polygamy works for Muslims, should I consider the tiniest possibility that hey, it MIGHT work? Or abortion might work for some? Or promiscuity might work for some? I’m fighting for my country right now, which is suffering because of “open-minded” bleeding hearts and too much faith in the government, so being open-minded about socialism is the last thing on my mind right now. For years I’ve tried to be positive just about anytime I come across someone different, and I’m way beyond that automatic diplomacy now. As for what a delightful mother Miss might have, this has nothing to do with her general point of view or my generosity towards it.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:37 pm

If your hand is frozen solid, you might think an ice cube feels warm.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:41 pm

Yes, that’s a good way to describe people dead-loyal to a government and unable to dream of questioning it.

Lori November 10, 2012 - 11:46 pm

Jennifer, considering the high poverty rates we have here, aren’t we dead-loyal if we want our system to remain that way? I would choose a system like the one Miss has – rather than ours. Why? They have low poverty rates. That is what I want from a system. Poverty will always be my main concern. What are your main concerns? What do you want?

Jennifer November 11, 2012 - 12:23 am

Let me know when poverty can truly be beaten by means of thievery.

Lori November 11, 2012 - 6:24 am

Jennifer, it’s hard to take you seriously. At least I can’t.

Katie November 9, 2012 - 2:37 am

We aren’t ‘fascinated’ by her. We’re appalled by her. This is somewhat different. If you can’t see how selfish your beliefs are – as CHRISTIANS! And I am one too – I don’t know what to tell you. Who are you to say when and if someone needs help?

But really I don’t know why this is even coming up. It wasn’t as if Romney planned to dismantle the welfare system [which exists because children were starving under private systems, by the way.]

Lori November 9, 2012 - 6:04 am

Thank you, Katie, for pointing that out. Socialism is very biblical to me. I understand we all interpret the Bible differently though.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 8:38 am

Socialism isn’t biblical; socialism breaks the Ten Commandments. GIVING is biblical.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:39 pm

Jesus would be appalled that you favor letting the poor go hungry because you don’t think they should be getting food or medical care. You know you wouldn’t be giving poor families money when you’re so against poor families getting government help. And if you want us to think you’d give it yourself, then why are you so opposed to it unless you wouldn’t really give it?

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:43 pm

You don’t seem to understand how this works, Lisa; Kelly’s opposed to having people snatch her money out of her pocket and tell her where it should go, instead of HER knowing exactly where it will go and deciding that. Nothing trumps a person’s right to control their own private property.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 8:26 am

Katie,

People voluntarily meeting the needs of people–that’s the only system that works without causing a heap of negative side effects for all of us. Socialism can provide temporary relief in certain cases–and I have never “looked down” on someone who finds themselves in dire need with no where to turn who was forced to go there. My very point (that is not being heard, apparently), is that when government is limited as it should be, not acting as a “nanny state” which is was never intended to do, PEOPLE voluntarily become the solution to each other’s needs…that is the only real charity that works.

Perhaps if you could see it work, and be a part of a community where this kind of voluntary charity is practiced, you would be able to see past the fallacy of forced-sharing. It is PRECISELY *unselfishness* that drives people to give in the way that is beneficial to society.

It is the height of ignorance to reprimand someone for suggesting viable, healthy solutions instead of supporting a system that cripples a society.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:08 pm

Selfish!! This is actually classic. Kelly’s been about giving and sacrificing since before she began this blog, but since she believes in the radical notion that she and everyone else has the right to decide how, when, and to whom to give their money, people are calling her selfish; better that the government should decide that then. Who are we to say who needs help? How about the simple powers of observation? A homeless person? Obviously, they need help. A well-dressed woman addressing the country about how she expects us to pay for her birth control while she sleeps around in college? Yes, actually she does need help, but not the financial kind.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 5:16 pm

Jennifer,

Your good sense is refreshing in this conversation 😉

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 5:17 pm

By the way, per your request, I added “recent comments” to the sidebar.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 5:30 pm

Thank you Kelly 🙂 I think you’ve handled things here very well. And thanks for the sidebar comments, and the ability to make nested ones again! 🙂

Sophie November 9, 2012 - 7:49 am

I have to say that it is sad that most Mormons manage to give tithe, and yet Christians who pay the same amount of taxes do not have the heart to let go of material luxury to give to charities. And instead of giving to charities, they go around the Internet complaining about the taxes that pay for the roads, the police, the firefighters that help everyone in emergencies should be cut because they cannot feel the glory of knowing exactly who they helped.

God does not mind you giving without looking. It’s an ultimate act of love.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 8:58 am

I wanted to summarize a few things:

Socialism and charity ARE NOT the same. Can’t be. Just because you “feel good” about giving your taxes doesn’t make it charity. Socialism is ultimately harmful to everyone, in many different ways.

I’ve been accused of “not understanding anything” about how socialism works. (Insults and sarcasm are not helpful or intelligent in a discussion, btw.) First, I understand that the system was created with good intentions. Please know that I get that. I also know (and do NOT look down on) that there are those who have no choice but to receive gov. assistance. As a last resort, I probably would too. I know there are those who truly have no one else and no where to turn when difficulties hit their families. I also believe there are/should be better solutions for these situations.

But perhaps if you HAVE been in my shoes, you would see things a bit differently. My family opened a children’s home–a non-profit organization when I was ten. (It is still open and my parents now keep older boys). We kept house fulls of children continuously, and made them a part of our family as long as they were here. We dealt specifically and intimately with their parents. The level of abuse of the welfare system is astonishing. That’s the big problem with it. Some are truly needy; others are caught in a cycle of dependency that they create for themselves. And that dependency cripples them, removing all incentives for improving their lives. And lest you think we don’t “care” about them, those same children, now grown adults, still come back for help. And we give it. They are capable men, completely expecting my parents to give them whatever they ask for, and will not so much as come work a day to pay for it (they eagerly agree to it before they receive the help, then never show up). This is a repeated cycle, over and over. They sit in our living room, even now, making as much money as my husband does, and admit to orchestrating their lives (i.e. not getting married) so they can still receive food stamps (I mentioned this in a conversation earlier).

This is abuse IS unfortunate for the truly needy. It is also unfortunate for all the “happy tax payers” who are having their money stolen to subsidize nicer cars, better phones, and bigger houses. If you are OK with that kind of abuse, something is inherently wrong.

If you do not desire to see a REAL solution to the problem of poverty and need, something is inherently wrong.

Do not suppose me to be uncaring because I don’t support socialism. I support a system that is BETTER, more charitable, more efficient and more beneficial to everyone. If that makes me “crazy”, or uncaring, I am dealing with the insane.

Laura November 9, 2012 - 10:11 am

I see a lot of overweight people on food stamps. And I’m like “ugh. Really?” But any time people want to cut back food stamps, or reform the system, it is the Food Manufacturers in America that protest the loudest.

Really though, spending on welfare in America is small potatoes compared to other ways the government wastes money. (Iraq War)

ange November 9, 2012 - 11:11 am

I’m overweight and have PCOS. I subsist on my kids Pb & j crusts and egg drop soup from my chickens, though I did make cookie dough dip out of butter, sugar, oatmeal and cream cheese the other day. I think the total cost was 50 cents lol. No that my kids are in school I have more time and freedom to exercise. Before I couldn’t even take shower or be in a separate room to cook or outside to harvest without their safety being in jeopardy.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 10:25 am
Rachel November 9, 2012 - 10:58 am

I think all this discussion about socialism misses the main point. If every family was a strong family, there would be no need for socialism or government help, except perhaps in rare cases where there were catastrophic medical costs and things of that nature. If men wouldn’t sleep around and create babies and then abandon them, there would be way fewer single mothers and way less need for food stamps and WIC and housing vouchers. If women worked harder to be submissive and pleasant and happy wives, perhaps the men would be more eager to stay. If every person reading this (male or female) decided to do their part to make their marriage a happy one, regardless of what the other person does, they are both saving themselves from needing government help and setting a good example for their children. It’s easier to prevent a problem than solve one.

Lisa November 10, 2012 - 9:46 pm

So basically women should be doormats and servants. It’s our fault for having lives that include being partners instead of slaves to men. Tell Oprah she’s a failure because she wasn’t submissive to a man.

I’m an at-home mom in charge of our children. I let my husband have final say because he will always consider my wants and desires above his own. I am what would be considered a good wife. Why are we struggling? Why is Paris Hilton living luxuriously when she makes sex takes with random guys? Maybe being a doormat isn’t >>the<< answer you think it is.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 9:55 pm

Lisa, Rachel called men and women to act responsibly, and in no case did she mention being a doormat. It wouldn’t make the world perfect, but it would sure as heck help; Kelly and her husband made it through hard times because they worked together.

Jennifer November 10, 2012 - 10:05 pm

I hope you find peace and help, Lisa, and assuming these women are statues in the face of others’ needs won’t bring it to you; more than one has struggled herself. You’re angry, and I know anger, but the best thing is to as for help from those on God’s side.

Lori November 10, 2012 - 11:18 pm

Rachel, there are too many ifs there if you know what I’m saying. It’s a dream scenario. (“If I had super intelligence I would be able to graduate from this fantastic university in Österreich. That is if I had a lot of money or could receive a nice big scholarship somehow. If I knew German or could learn German and if I then could pass the required German language test. And if that university would would just reopen since 2005 when it closed, then would my dream come true!”)

Jennifer November 11, 2012 - 12:23 am

Decency is something humans are incapable of, can be regardless of other circumstances, as super-high intelligence is not.

Lori November 11, 2012 - 6:40 am

Wait, are humans incapable of decency? How and why? I don’t understand.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 11:17 am

“Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher put it succinctly when she noted that “the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money,” which is how socialism works; taking from some and giving to others.

The late Dr. Adrian Rogers, a pastor and conservative writer also had some pertinent observations about socialism. Dr. Rogers enumerated four principles about socialism that are so plainly sensible that one wonders how any intelligent human being can fail to understand them. He said that:

What one person receives without working for, another person must work for but not receive.

The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is about the end of any nation.

You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it.” -James Schott

Lisa Ente November 9, 2012 - 12:35 pm

another word from mike farris –
http://www.hslda.org/elert/archive/2012/11/20121108162437.asp

my advice to all of us? buckle up people. elections have consequences.

years ago i was watching the VF history of the world conference and paul jehle was talking about daniel and the time of the babylonian exile. and he said something that i found chilling then an even more now. he said that we are negligent as christian parents if we are not preparing our children NOW for captivity. and unlike kevin swanson, i don’t think there is any such thing as being “safe distance from the demise of western civilization”. we are all in this together!!

my support for governor romney was not because i thought he was our “saviour”, but because i knew if nothing else he would keep/reinstate the rule of law. and kelly, you said in another comment that homeschooling is legal in all 50 states and that too many people would rebel if that right was taken away. well, the government takeover of healthcare is illegal and guess what? it was upheld by the supreme court and is now the law of the land. and thousands of companies are arbitrarily exempted from the law by the obama administration based on nothing but their whim. just like he could do with private schools and homeschoolers.

i don’t want to sound like the voice of gloom and doom. i am first a citizen of the kingdom of CHRIST. but i also am very realistic about what this all means for us as Christians and homeschoolers.

one more thing. i was thinking about how doug philips joined with Glen Beck in 2009 at his tea party rally. adam mcmanus too! –

from the san antonio tea party website –

“The third event of the day—and the actual Tea Party—kicked off at 6:00 PM with a prayer and welcome by KSLR (AM 630) radio talk show host Adam McManus. The gathered crowd recited the Pledge of Allegiance, led by Gavin Carmona and Seth Alfaro, spiritedly joined Jean French in singing “God Bless America,” and listened intently as Julia Hayden of the SATP read “The Alamo: A Line in the Sand.” Next Glenn Beck returned to the stage and delivered some opening remarks, followed by Ted Nugent who led the crowd in singing the “National Anthem.” Other speakers, including Katherine Moreno, Edward Jaax, Phil Pepin, and Terri Hall, also addressed the crowd on various topics: the strength of America built upon legal immigration, the duty of citizenship, economic freedom, and the selling out of Texas. Doug Phillips, President of The Vision Forum, finally spoke on “Freedom at Risk.” Grammy-winning recording artist Steve Vaus closed out the evening at 8:15 PM with his song “We Must Take America Back.”

isn’t Glen Beck a (gasp!) – MORMON??? yet we partnered with him in patriotism and the fight for freedom. i just don’t see the difference.

i am proud of the fact that i voted for a man who i believe to be honorable and good. for someone i believe to be a GREAT husband and father. for someone who is generous and honest and humble. who doesn’t smoke, drink, swear. i feel very sad for him as i have learned more about him that while being sincere in his faith, he is sincerely wrong and if nothing else, i am going to pray for him and his family faithfully because i really believe they tried to help our country. i don’t know much about mormonism, but i am not going to form an opinion based on slanderous rumors on the internet, any more than i would want anyone to form an opinion about me and my family based on reading the QUIVERING DAUGHTERS. ya’ know? i actually think that after all of this hooplah dies down i am going to learn more about the mormons so i can more effectively witness to them.

in closing, i think that perhaps this is such an emotional and sobering time for me because i live very close to the area taken out by the hurricane. it is shocking to see people living in a 3rd world country overnight, 1 hour from my house. imagine kelly, if not only your house was wiped out, but everyone else’s too, and there was no one to help you like we were all able to. because everyone’s house is gone. no one has gas and nobody can leave, everyone is cold and everyone is hungry. again, not to be melodramatic, but that just happened and is going on right now in ny and nj.

and i haven’t even touched on our new vulnerability to terrorism.

sorry to be so long winded but this is what is rattling around in my brain so it feels good to get it all out 😉

in Christ alone.

blessings,
lisa ente

Jane November 9, 2012 - 12:39 pm

The God I know teaches me that love is not enabling others in their sin of sexual promiscuity, laziness and greed. (not talking about the truly needy here) Which is what socialism enables many to do, and only leads to more of the same.

Katie November 10, 2012 - 1:05 pm

I am so happy that we all know God and Jesus differently and have the ability to find Him in our own way. I would also love to hear more about your experience with socialism. Which truly socialist countries have you lived in? China? Russia? Korea?

Lori November 10, 2012 - 10:51 pm

Jane, I don’t understand what you mean with sexual promiscuity? Would you like to explain?

Lucy November 9, 2012 - 2:47 pm

Miss, thank you for posting. It is always fascinating to see inside the opinions of those who live and embrace ideologies different from ones’ own. I am intrigued by the contrast of perceptions. For example, you wrote “Hah, why socialism failed? My country is a living example of why it succeeded.
Your country is a living example of why your system is failing (and no, you do not have socialism, except in the new health reform).” .

Two Swedish economists in writing in the Wall Street Journal had a slightly different perspective.
They wrote: “We also investigated the claim that Sweden is proof that big government does not harm the economy. While Sweden has done very well compared to other developed countries in the last 15 years, it has also implemented sweeping pro-market reforms. Examples include a national system of free school choice based on vouchers up through senior year of high school, a financially stable public pension system that can adjust payouts if contributions to the system fall for some reason, and comprehensive tax reform that has lowered marginal tax rates tremendously. …

Sweden’s recent growth is thus the result of opting for free-market solutions instead of growing government”. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704535004575348641192320912.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion)

So it would seem that Sweden has survived the EU crisis so far in part because they have been abandoning the detrimental policies.

I’m glad your tax dollars in your country go primarily to the needy. Swedens’ lack of stature as a military superpower is surely helpful in that regard. As you well know, in our country our tax dollars fund copious amounts of death machines and foreign interventionism before they begins to feed bloated public bureaucrats at home. As a Christian, that is something I would be glad for. However, as a Christian I cannot condone my tax dollars paying for sin, and Sweden has one of the highest abortion rates in the developed countries. Wikipedia says “In comparison with the other nordic countries Sweden ranks high in number of abortions and low in number of young parents, while the number of pregnancies in relation to total population is largely the same in all nordic countries.[6] (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Sweden).

As Christians, we abhore socialism because it rips away any control of our hard earned money . We would so much rather fund organizations we know will help people in ways that do not defy God. The only nation in history I know of that had a successful socialistic model was the theocracy of Isreal before the Babylonian destruction. As our God has not established any theocracies today we fight for individual freedom and liberty which our own history has proven does more for the advancement of mankind than any other system of government.
Thanks for your insights.
Lucy

Miss November 10, 2012 - 5:07 am

Lucy, thank you for your reply. This is a social democracy, which is a direction within socialism. Social democracy is not 100 % socialism. I do not believe in 100 % true socialism. That comment of mine should have had the word ‘social democracy’ and not ‘socialism’ to be correct. I mentioned above somewhere that I live in a social democracy, didn’t I (otherwise I sure made a fool of myself)?

Honestly, I was mad when I wrote those small comments after each other up there, so they were indeed less reasonable than my first comment. My country is a “living example of why social democracy has succeeded” is what I should have written. Free market is part of (our model of) a social democracy. Those economists do not have a different perspective than mine. They pointed out a certain aspect, without our modern social democracy, which has especially been proven to be successful. The only thing in that article which I would question is the focus on the last 15 years. The last 15 years are not the only successful years in our history.

Lucy, interesting observation. You can also observe that our abortion rates were considerably lower just some few years ago. Instead of focusing on our last years, look at the whole picture. Something has happened, during the last couple of years, which has led to the higher abortion rates we have today. Our version of your right-wingers (or well, the right side – perhaps I should not equal them to right-wingers) are in power today and they have been in power the last few years. They support our model of social democracy as well, but they often phase in economy measures. During their first term of office (they are now on their second term) they invested less in our public school, yet they wanted a lot of changes to happen. What do we have at public school? Yes, sexual education. How the quality has been of said education is questionable. (If anyone questioned the findings in the early 80s of how a proper sex. education among other factors, leads to lower abortion rates, that person can now 30 years later notice how the Netherlands especially, but the rest of Western Europe, are all living examples of how far proper information can take you. I do not know if anyone still believes in abstinence education, but I sense that’s possible, considering all those other ideas people have out there.)

I do not expect our higher abortion rates to remain that way. If they do so, I will not blame the Swedish Social Democrats for it, but the Moderate (Swedish Conservative) Party.

Lucy, I probably sound a lot nastier than I am. If you want to know more about this system, I would like to talk with you somewhere else. I do think I should continue commenting here.

Word Warrior November 9, 2012 - 4:44 pm

To Miss:

I apologize for my sarcasm (which I have deleted). Even when I think sarcasm is warranted, it is not necessary. I am reminded: “Bless those that curse you, do good to those who use you”…and while your comment may not warrant “cursing and using”, how much more then, am I to respond kindly? So, I would ask forgiveness to all, and grace as you remember I, too, am human.

Amy November 9, 2012 - 7:44 pm

A few thoughts (I don’t know how quick:-)

1. According to Karl Marx, who wrote The Communist Manifesto, and from whom our modern idea of “socialism” comes from, socialism’s end IS communism. Our only examples of communistic states obviously leave us fearful of this, but to Marx, it was able to be accomplished in a “generous” manner, not in the way we have seen it played out over and over again. The reason that Marx – and all other “socialists” are wrong (and have been proved wrong) is because the only way that socialism succeeds is if the nature of mankind is “good” – which Marx believed. He believed that mankind is good and corrupted by institutions and societies (specifically the wealthy societies that operate in greed). He was WRONG. Our nature as mankind is sinful. We are born sinful. We are infinitely wicked without the redemption of Jesus Christ. So, for those who believe that “true” socialism will ultimately work, you are gravely misled – as you do not understand the nature of man either.
2. You probably don’t truly understand what “socialism” is either. I have read all of the comments here, and I believe that one woman from Sweden pointed that “socialistic” government and said, “Look! It works.!” If it were truly “socialist”, by Marx’s definition, not only would it not work – but you would not have the luxury of commenting on the internet when you have neighbors without internet. The fact that you do and they don’t proves that you don’t live in a socialistic society – yet. Although you are closer to that than we. Read the Manifesto yourself. Then respond. Wikipedia does a descent job explaining it, too.
3. For those on this thread who didn’t vote because you refused to cast your vote for a Mormon out of religious conviction, stop complaining. Also, if you are going to point to God’s sovereign control to place kings and rulers in authority – again stop griping. Accept what is. We have President Obama – and are moving in this direction – because that is how God has ordained it. Ranting about it here will not change that.
4. If you give and receive and share in the context of your Christian community and enjoy the pleasures of that as you struggle to make ends meet within your family BUT HAVE NEVER stepped foot into an impoverished community that is not Christian or has any faith at all – then don’t speak. Don’t talk about the joys of giving and the struggle of your family when you only give in the context of your own faith community. Travel to the closest inner city with your children and walk the streets giving away. Expend yourself for the poor in a neighborhood of people who don’t think, believe or agree with you AND THEN you can talk about “Christian charity.”
5. To the author: responding with sarcasm and cattiness only goes to prove the point that Christians shouldn’t be talking about these issues. Be above reproach or don’t talk. “A gentle answer turns away wrath.”
6. There will always be poor people: people with needs greater than own. Enlighten yourselves and go read, “A Model of Christian Charity” written by John Winthrop (1630 – you can Google it). The BEST response to this issue ever written perhaps. You at least owe it to your arguments to read his admonition to the Puritans who were traveling with him to the new colony who would experience “class struggle.”
7. To reduce social justice to “the government should stay out of it” is naive at best and ignorant at worst. It is not that simple. I wish it were. This is a complex issue because everyone involved are sinful (see point 1). Let’s start with pointing the fingers at “us” (Christians): the order to take care of widows and orphans was given to us; the Apostles and the NT church took care of the poor (their own and others too). When we step up to this responsibility, the government will have a lot less to do. So far, American Christians are too busy blaming socialism and democrats to actually DO ANYTHING helpful. Always easier to blame the other guy.
8. I am not pro-socialism, but I am curious as to how “socialism” breaks the 10 Commandments. Would love to have a better explanation of that.
9. The only solution to any of this is THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! The men in your living room will continue to live selfishly – not marrying to remain with food stamps – until the ministry of the Holy Spirit through conviction and regeneration makes them a new creation. There will be no changed system without changed hearts. The framers of the Constitution realized that our form of government only worked when people “self-governed” – specifically according to the 10 Commandments. (No…that statement does not prove your early statement re: 10 Commandments). In the absence of such self-government, the only option for a country is further government control and provision. The framers knew that. Somehow we don’t. If you are a Christian your job is to proclaim the GOSPEL – the message of Jesus Christ. It alone can save. So stop wasting time with fickle and prattle commentary and walk across town and ask the first guy you see, “Hey! Can I tell you about my Lord!!/” When more of us do that, we will see change.
I’m done:-)

6 arrows November 9, 2012 - 9:27 pm

Amy,

Regarding your #5, look at Kelly’s post at 4:44 pm, just above yours. She apologized for her sarcasm. Note also her last sentence: “So, I would ask forgiveness to all, and grace as you remember I, too, am human.”

As humans, we all fail at times. Christians are no exception. That does not, as you said, “prove the point that Christians shouldn’t be talking about these issues”.

We as Christians are commanded to “speak the truth in love”. The fact that we sometimes fail to do it lovingly does not negate the first part of that verse. We apologize, ask for forgiveness, and move on, endeavoring to speak more kindly, all of which you will note are sentiments Kelly expressed just above.

You would do well to extend to her that forgiveness and grace, rather than tell her “don’t talk [about these issues]”. And BTW, people can’t possibly apply the Bible verse you stated, to give “a gentle answer [that] turns away wrath”, if they don’t talk.

I see in Kelly’s written response and the deleting of her sarcasm that she exhibits fruits of repentance. The Holy Spirit is clearly working in her, and we can all be thankful for Christians such as her who are obedient to their calling and who are mindful of walking in the Spirit.

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 9:47 pm

There’s no need for anyone to be snitty at Kelly for straining over piranha-like bites of sudden socialists and liberals popping up. And I’d like to know if Christians should not discuss this, who should?

Charity November 9, 2012 - 10:00 pm

Exactly my thought Jennifer! It’s so odd to me that she would be attacked like that and expected to act perfectly after how she was attacked! Urg!

Charity November 9, 2012 - 10:02 pm

And I had actually read the deleted comment and thought she was quite graceful. (My chin is so severely bruised after reading some of these comments. Ouchie!)

Jennifer November 9, 2012 - 11:31 pm

LOL Yes, I agree and can totally relate.

Amy November 9, 2012 - 10:57 pm

Ladies, your loyalty to your blog-friend is admirable. And as Christians we should speak the truth in love — as I did. There was no misgiving in my admonition, although it wasn’t sugar-sweet in its delivery. And as Kelly herself can testify, I posted this same comment much earlier in the day –prior to her apology– and it was deleted (or went missing). I don’t know why, but I chose to post it again, mostly to relay the other messages — but yes…this one as well. Kelly was not the only Christian in the thread that needed to be reminded of the truth — but it is her blog and she sets the tone. As such, if she is going to go toe-to-toe with “socialists and liberals” (God-forbid…and I am neither) then she needs to be prepared for what is to come. As she told another: ask God to give you what you need and He will — and that includes a gentle answer. We do not have the luxury of claiming “I was attacked and I fought back.” Yes, a sincere apology was the proper response. And I am glad that one was given. Perhaps, in the future, it will not be needed because the commentary will not drive any of the participants to such verbal behavior. Blessings to you all.

Jane November 10, 2012 - 7:55 am

“There will be no changed system without changed hearts.”

In complete agreement with you, Amy.

The only hope for this country, if any, is the renewal and regeneration of hearts through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, pray for your leaders, whom God has placed into power, preach the Gospel as much as you can, take care of your families and live your lives as a good witness to others. God’s will be done.

DanaL November 10, 2012 - 12:10 am

I just found this article and thought it was a really good one. The thoughts Kelly originally posted and the thoughts put forth in this article were bouncing around in my mind after the results of the election came in. http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/articles/encouragement/dear_america.htm

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 7:48 am

Katie if you wish to be heard, you must learn how to have a discussion with respect and tact.

Katie November 10, 2012 - 1:03 pm

Yes, because so many are showing that here… jab, jab, generalization, prejudice comment, GOD, jab, jab, prejudice, GOD… because as long as I say something about god, what I am saying isn’t just as tainted and tactless…

Katie November 10, 2012 - 1:12 pm

Wow, I am amazed that you deleted all my comments. The comments from the people who support your viewpoint, not matter how tactlessly written, are still here, but mine are deleted. It’s good to know that you are creating a fair and honest blog to foster discussion, instead of deleting posts that have pointedly spoken truth in support of the other side of the argument.

Word Warrior November 10, 2012 - 1:23 pm

Katie,

I have deleted other comments as well (and even one of my own). I closed the comment section at one time, because dealing with who/what to allow to comment, and trying to keep the discussion respectful was getting impossible. I reopened the comments with the determination that I would let people discuss things, ONLY if they did it respectfully. (And I do not have the time or energy to go back through and sift through all the comments, deciding which ones to keep and which ones to delete.)

You can either respect that and comply, or continue to waste your time typing comments that will be deleted. My blog, my rules.

Lisa November 11, 2012 - 9:25 am

How can I not be angry at someone as heartless, cruel, and selfish as yourself? You see helping others as theft while forgetting that you were once in need and received such good fortune but have not even offered a prayer for others in a disaster. You are so ignorant that you actually think that before there was such a thing as welfare that there was no poverty because the rich were excited to go help the poor when history shows the opposite to be true!

I want to live in whatever fantasy world you’re a part of where those who have are glad to help those who don’t have. I do not happen to have a church or family with money (my parents died, I got stuck with the medical and death bills, no extended family, mother-in-law’s trying to help my brother-in-law get heart surgery, and none of my friends have more than we do), and you would rather there be no help and that my kids go hungry so you don’t feel you’re being stolen from. So little of your taxes go to help poor families. Most goes to infrastructure (you use the roads, right?), police and firefighters (don’t even tell me you’d send them away if your house was on fire or you were a crime victim), schools (I don’t care that you don’t like them, you can use them), politicians, wars that you like, etc.. If you got back the part that goes to welfare, would you give it to me? No. You will probably lie, but you won’t give me the $10 a month that you pay so kids can eat.

Word Warrior November 11, 2012 - 9:27 am

Lisa,

If you’re story is true (this is, after all the Internet where anyone can say anything), send me your mailing address.

Word Warrior November 11, 2012 - 9:30 am

And again, calling me “heartless and selfish” is not only heartless and selfish, but ignorant, since you have no idea what I do to help those around me. Not supporting a forced-tax system doesn’t mean I don’t care about people. (Seems like I’ve said this to a deaf ear). You may not agree with me on that, but you have no grounds to call me “heartless and selfish”. I posted this comment, but that will be the last unless you learn how to speak more respectfully.

I’ll be waiting for your address. You may send it to me privately through the contact form.

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