Divided…Challenging The Status Quo of Modern Youth Ministry
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My hubby and I just watched this two nights ago. AWESOME! Scott Brown’s book A Weed in the Church is a fantastic follow-up to the movie.
Kelly, Thank you so much for posting this. What a wake up call for so many! I have felt for a while now that youth group was unbiblical but couldn’t put my finger on why. Many of the youth groups my daughter has been invited to have been little more than game time, with almost no bible instruction at all! The extreme that caught my attention was the New Years Eve “lock-in” that she was invited to participate in this past yr. One of the games they played involved choosing a paper bag and being required to eat whatever was in it. One girl threw up after eating cat food! I was horrified and decided then that we were done with youth group activities. We have moved to a new state now (new job) and are looking for a more family integrated church. I pray we find one or are able to influence an existing church with this vision. I am going to share this video with anyone who will watch it.
Ann
Ann, a youth group is not inherently sinful. Many have helped teens form friendships with strong siblings of the faith.
I tried to go watch the video but it says it can’t download. Did anyone else have this problem …if so how can I correct it?
As far as youth groups are concerned….Right now I am very thankful for my local church and for the youth group and it’s leaders. I have seen much spiritual growth through the curriculum and activities for our young people. They are great servants to our church and have a spirit of sincerity and love for God. I think of myself at that age and in comparison these youth are much more godly and connected than I was to the cause of Christ.
We need to be careful to not blame the church or the pastor and youth pastor for not doing “our” job. Too many people expect the church to correct their mistakes and negligence as parents. Much of the time it goes under the radar until it starts to show up around the age of 13 so we take it out on youth groups. Maybe it’s what mama and daddy didn’t do at 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 …and our chickens have come home to roost. Jesus never said the church was responsible for raising Godly children. The local church IS Biblical. (If it’s not you need to remove most of the NT). God does give guidelines for local churches. There ARE offices listed such as pastor/teacher/elder/deacon and specific instructions as to choosing these men. Each local body is given much space to minister to their congregation in the context of it’s own body and it’s particular spiritual needs. (In Revelation …different churches had different weaknesses resulting in the Spirit telling them different ways to combat their particular problem.)
I love my local church and support what they are doing. People are being brought to Christ, discipled, changed, disciplined, loved, helped, and growing in grace! Children and Youth included! Yippee!
Thank you, Susan.
My husband and I watched this movie a week or so ago and LOVED it! It really opened up our eyes even more to an area that we were already wary of from our own experiences. I would really like to read “A Weed In The Church” also.
I am very thankful for our Sunday School Class. Our entire family attends..from our adult single kids from 27 yrs. to 13 yrs. It is an encouragement to our family as we are usually studying together what we are learning and we all attend church together. Our church does have the segregated Sunday School classes and childrens church.We have a bus ministry where children sometimes come with an older sibling and no parents so I do see the need for this in a way. Our children have never participated in the normal youth activities in whatever church we have been in but we do participate as a family in certain things like VBS and skating.There will always be some who do not understand why we do not participate in everything but that’s okay.We are accountable to the Lord for that. I was “one of those kids” from a broken home that got saved because someone invited me on a bus to church so I am supportive of the outreach. While we do have our differences on some of the things that take place I must say that we do need to really lift up our Pastors in Prayer and step in and help when needed.We are friends with our youth pastor and his wife and our older sons are very good friends with them. We try to be an encouragement to them..and yes, sometimes you do need to speak about what’s happening but always in love.As Christians we have to be careful to not put down the local church that the Lord has called us to be a part of..We are to be an active part of it but this does not always mean that we need to do every activity.I really believe that what this video deals with is so true and wouldn’t it be great if our churches could be that way but they are all not. Our church supports missionaries and our Pastor preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that is hard to find in a church today in all honesty.So many parents do delegate that responsibility to the youth pastor or church and that should not be.It is the responsibility of the parents!!
Praise God’s Name you were saved with the help of such people! 🙂
We have struggled with the issue of segregation and youth group for several years. Our oldest daughter is 13 (in a couple of weeks). We kept them out of stuff for a while since we were in a small church (but not family integrated). Our church started Sunday school and we were the teachers. Children from our neighborhood started wanting to go with us. A year or so ago our church hired a youth pastor. We were very concerned at first. But we have been involved and have watched the youth pastor grow and we know he is really trying to teach the kids how the Bible relates to them at their age and in their life. Now more kids from our neighborhood started coming. So many, we can not bring them ourselves. We almost got out of some of it when I felt overwhelmed, but then God spoke clearly through a sermon that He did not want us to quit. He meant to use us to “help” rescue these kids who may not have any other way to know him. Recently the Church bought a van for us to use to bring kids to church!!!
I have struggled GREATLY with believing in the general principle of keeping our children from the wordly influence of kids not raised in the same way our children are, and the fact that we ( a homeschooling family from the beginning) are not in a family integrated church. (Why should we still be doing this if it is not right and not best for our kids??) But God has not set us free to leave what he seems to have called us to. I have tried to “talk” my husband into it many times and have tried praying , believing God would open a door and lead my husband to another church. It just doesn’t happen. So it seems it must be that he is leading us to stay.
I guess now I feel that it boils down to being INVOLVED in the activities your children are involved in and taking them out if you know things are not right. and it boils down to your relationship with your kids. I don’t think youth group can MAKE or BREAK a child if the relationship with the parents is as it should be. On the other hand we can not control our children really. We hope that what we are doing will more likely bring about children who will follow the Lord, but in the end it is their choice.
Lorrie,
Your post really got to my heart.I believe you are doing what the Lord has called you to do.(sounds like your husband still wants to stay and be active in the church).The church we are in..we have some like minded friends but not everyone understands decisions sometimes we make as a family but that’s okay.I’m here to tell you my friend that you can keep your children from the influences of this world even being in a church that has all of those things..age related s.s.classes and youth groups.Sometimes it is hard..peer pressure is hard. I think that it is a wonderful testimony that you are teaching and bringing in children from your neighborhood..That can be a difficult thing to do at times but I will be praying that their parents will also be reached.We have seen many a parent come to the Lord from the love of their christian children.Staying active in what your children are involved with will make a difference but do not ever feel guilty for stepping back and making the best decision for your family. We have had to leave a couple of churches but have been at the same one for 5 years now.I pray this will be an encouragement to you!!
Keri
Keri,
It is an encouragement!!Thanks for your prayers!!
Lorrie,
I forgot to mention that our children are 27,24,22,19, 16, and 13.None of them are married yet and the grown ones work and still live at home.(saving money) and they are all in the same church with us. My husband very wisely agreed with them as they went off and tried some other churches on Wed.night together but they came back saying that those were not the programs for them. When they grow up hearing and knowing the Truth..they will not leave it!! We are an imperfect family who knows and Loves the Lord and he helps us.God Bless you!!
Me again–we (especially me)struggled with not having like-minded friends for either us or our children. I kept saying “Why are we still here if we are not going to find it here?” Then lately we have realized the youth pastor is more like-minded than we thought and I’m wondering if it was case of discrimination (homeschoolers vs non- homeschoolers) maybe we were looking for things wrong with each other (especially us). We still don’t have many friends and I do believe God may want that for us, eventually at least. But maybe He is moving in this area too. Any one else deal with this??
I have not watched this yet, but it is a topic close to my heart, as I majored in Youth Minstries in college back in the late 70s and early 80s, then came to the conclusion from experience and then searching Scripture that they are not Biblical. We cannot base whether something is Biblical based on results. Yes, I’m sure children and young people have been saved, and that is good, but that does not Biblically validate the method. My experience has been that when a church reaches out to children and young people (and the women also), the men get left in the dust…also, right or wrong, men don’t feel the burden of responsibility to grow spiritually to lead their families. Why? The Church is doing it for them! We, as humans, have a tendency toward laziness. As far as evangelism goes, children are usually the ones reached out to…why? because they are easier “prey”…men are not so easy. The thinking is, “Well, if we can get the children, then we can get the mothers, then the fathers”….that’s not necessarily so. Plus it unnecessarily splits the family and pits it against the man. Looking at Scripture, it seems that men are the ones who should be “targeted” for evangelism…if you get the man, then you have the family. Just my 2 cents worth.
Couldn’t disagree more. We have many practices today that weren’t around in Biblical times, but this doesn’t mean they’re wrong. Men can be very influential in Youth Groups and it’s also natural to have teachers in church.
I am about 20 minutes into the movie, but will have to stop watching until I get another chunk of time to finish it.
I am somewhat skeptical of a movie in which the interviewer seemingly only interviews kids who talk about the youth group being fun, or the youth pastor being cool, etc. Were there NO kids who said that the youth pastor taught the Word, and, as a result, their walk w/God was deepened? Unless that is reflected later in the movie, then I have to wonder if there isn’t a bias going in (which, in all candor, I think that there IS a presupposition going into the movie, i.e., Leclerc has/had a hypothesis, and then went about trying to prove it). Don’t get me wrong. ALL youth groups don’t teach the Word, and it isn’t central to the program. BUT, the same can be said for churches, Bible studies, and myriad of other entities. We attend a church where the Word is central to the program. The Sunday school that I teach uses a curriculum that proclaims Christ, and when I teach, even though there is a craft that piggybacks on the lesson, I want those kids to understand who Christ is, and why we’re there each Sunday. When I review w/them, week after week, they can give me a recitation of what they’ve learned–and Exodus (one of the books that we’ve gone through) isn’t exactly an easy book to understand. AND, I teach 1st graders!
Two last points: if kids are leaving the church in droves, as the film states (and they use Barna, who, from my perspective, isn’t necessarily always a reliable source), how do we blame the church, if we believe in the sovereignty of God, and sovereign grace? It is God who keeps the heart. If my son departs the faith, do I blame my efforts? Is it our efforts alone, or do we trust God to give the results?
And, finally, Cindy, just exactly what did your “searching Scripture” uncover in terms of youth ministries being unbiblical? And, how is it that solid, Bible-believing churches don’t see it in the same light? Are they practicing something unbiblical, then?
Cathy
Cathy, the movie does not blame anyone. It is a call to action for parents to step up and disciple their children. Leclerc also spends a lot of film time interviewing youth pastors who are for and against youth groups as they are lived out currently. I never got the feeling that he was calling for an end to youth groups, I believe his audience is the youth themselves and families to pay attention and make choices rather than just relinquish control. Maybe I misinterpreted his message, if so then I will watch it again and try more.
I am not against youth groups per se, I do think that not all youth groups are wrong, neither do I think they are all right. Just like church they are made up of sinful broken individuals and those factors make them fallible. I think as parents we have to step up and accept our responsibility to bring our children up to know the Lord and rely on our youth groups to cement that relationship and help them make like minded friends. I am not against Sunday School but the same holds true, it is a supplement not a replacement for parental instruction. I, personally, would love to be involved in a church that integrated families in a class so we could all study the same thing. I make up for that by studying at home with my children, it is more work and slower but oh well…
Youth groups and sunday school as outreach are terrific but when those children accept the Lord they need a parental figure to step up and disciple them so they can grow. In Deuteronomy 11:19 God instructs us to ” Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.” A Pastors role is to lead the body of Christ and instruct them, there is no division of ages in that statement, and there is no indication in the New Testament that the children were taught separately from the adults.
That’s it…I’ll keep my mouth shut now Kelly and not hijack your blog…LOL
Ann
Ann,
I’m not sure why you addressed me in your comment. I never intimated that the movie “blamed” anyone for anything. What was your point in that statement?
Further, the movie IS about youth groups, and the harm/danger inherent in them, regardless of your statement to the contrary. Leclerc states (at the beginning) that his dad pulled his kids out of the youth group when he witnessed the kids who were coming out of the youth program at their church. The movie is not merely a call to parents to disciple their kids. If that was the case, then the movie would be about parenting kids and discipling them. It is not.
I guess that I’m not sure what your point is in calling me out (not using that as a pejorative term), because I never once implied that parents aren’t responsible to bring up their kids in the ways of Christ. I merely pointed out that the movie maker does have a preconceived notion of youth groups. To say otherwise is disingenuous. He interviews kids (at least in the part that I’ve seen–to reiterate, I will watch the rest at another point) that give vapid answers, and seem somewhat vacuous. It’s hard to see it in context, when in order to prove Leclerc’s premise, we only see kids whose comments are used to back up that premise.
As an aside, the Deuteronomy passage (that you used) has been used to augment the argument that homeschooling is the only Biblical way to teach your kids, as well. The Bible may not point to a division of ages, but neither does it give commands that all people must be taught together.
I am very aware that it is necessary to instruct my kids in the ways of God. I am not, in any way, implying that the responsibility for that should be delegated to anyone else but my husband and me.
Just why did you address your comment to me? I can’t quite figure that out…I’m not offended in the least, but do wonder what I wrote that would prompt you to give me a recitation as to the importance of parents teaching their kids vs. a reliance on the church.
Finally, I would vociferously disagree that this movie isn’t about how youth groups are unbiblical. Kelly, as far as I know, attends a family-integrated church (I really don’t like that label–because our church is made up of families, too), which are largely known as churches who eschew the idea of dividing kids by ages, etc. I saw info about this movie on another FB page by someone else who attends the same kind of church…no problem there, but it IS a movie about the division of families by the church. Leclerc doesn’t say that his parents kept him in the youth group, but made sure that they continued to be a check and balance for it…no, they PULLED HIM OUT. To say otherwise would be to miss the point of the movie.
Gotta go run…literally–the treadmill.
C
Without going into all the specifics of a discussion like this where one must consider the youth ministry in question (some are “good” compared to others, as ministries go), my thoughts go in this direction:
First, Ann is right…the Bible models whole families worshiping together. We can see this in many of Paul’s letter where he addresses “old men, young men, children”, etc. Now does that necessarily make church segregation wrong? That’s where it gets fuzzy.
I take the counsel of Scripture to conclude that it is not good, especially where children/youth are being instructed in righteousness, to be separated from the wisdom of the aged. The “youth culture” has been created by this separation. A culture where adolescence (i.e. a man-made period of permissive irresponsibility) is nurtured and authority for the elderly is disdained.
Now, that is a general statement. It doesn’t mean that every youth in every youth group or age-segregated class is irresponsible or disrespectful. But a *general* observation does reveal this to be the norm, particularly since youth are mostly segregated every day at school as well.
When I read “a companion of fools suffers harm”, I think of the foolishness that has become “normal” for teens. When I read “but he who walks with the wise will become wise”, I think that it is GOOD for our youth to WALK…that is to live alongside each day, the wiser and elder among them.
And like many issues, this isn’t “sin” vs. “not sin”..it’s merely wisdom.
Cathy to unravel the logic you referred to about the sovereignty of God with our children’s hearts…
It DOES matter how we raise them and what influences we expose them to. God is sovereign over my marriage. But I carefully guard it…I don’t become close friends with others who do not respect the sanctity of marriage and are unfaithful to their spouses. I am careful about the music I listen to and the books I read that could influence how I relate to my husband.
Ultimately God has our children’s hearts. But that NEVER eliminates our responsibility to nurture them in the Lord which is to include our decisions, the influences we allow in their lives and every decision regarding their upbringing. We do our part and trust Him for His. But irresponsibility can’t be chalked up to “oh well, God is sovereign”. If my children do not grow up to keep covenant with Him, I do not want it to be because I was unfaithful as a parent to guide them as best I knew how in the admonition of the Lord. (I think here of God’s warning to Eli about his sons…)
Sorry for the “longness” 😉
Cathy,I should have separated my comments up more. I was really directing the first part of my reply to you and the rest as a reply to the other comments. You asked
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I was simply pointing out that the movie isn’t blaming anyone for kids leaving the church. He does not lay blame on youth groups, he simply lays out the symptoms for us to see.
I do not attend a Family integrated church, but I have pulled my daughter from Youth group (for reasons specified in my first reply) and do not intend to put her in one until I find one that is about teaching the youth to be more Christlike and less worldly.
Your right the bible doesn’t give any command that people should be taught together but it does model it. Paul exhorts the older men and women to be role models for the younger folks. This can be done in a youth group but too often due to lack of older volunteers it is a large group of youth and just a few role models who get burned out. Yes he is reporting about youth groups and discussing some that have failed, but what I heard was a message to me as a parent to not relinquish my role as a discipler to my children just because there is a youth group available. I think when you have time to watch more you will have many of your questions answered.
I am sorry if it seemed like I was calling you out, that wasn’t my intention.
Ann
I was really impressed with this documentary! So insightful! I didn’t expect to learn anything new, but I really did.
I was blown away by Paul Washer’s little story in the bonus material. That was ME! I was a new Christian and hungry for God’s Word, and my youth pastor actually explained to me why he couldn’t teach what I wanted to hear. “These other kids aren’t ready for that. I have to focus on them. You’re doing fine. Don’t worry about it!” UGH! I felt so neglected by those who were supposed to be my spiritual mentors. The teaching was always to the lowest common denominator, which meant gearing Bible studies to those who aren’t interested and don’t want to be there. Ugh, ugh, ugh! Makes me so sad all the years wasted when I should have been growing in the Lord. I was stagnant and starving.
Our youth pastor took pathetic pictures of the poor in the Bahamas and in Southern California (to market his idea to the elders) and we took our youth mission trips to these vacation hot spots, teaching VBS in churches that could have done it themselves.
Although he never reached out to share the gospel w/ my sister, he did joke about her “going thru boyfriends like toilet paper” in front of all the kids. Nice.
But God.
He redeemed all that junk and my sister and I, in spite of the biblical teaching we did not receive as youth, are saved and both living regenerate lives for Christ. 2 Cor. 5:17
All glory to God!
Hey, I would like to add that I made the statement that the book “Already Gone” implies that churches are to blame. I have not been able to get the movie link to download …so I haven’t watched it …. I believe that the movie cites statistics from the book. Just thought that would clear up some of the misunderstanding. I’m sorry if my statement caused confusion as to who the movie blames or doesn’t blame. Lesson for me: Don’t comment if I can’t get it download! : )
I haven’t checked in in a while. I will try to get time to watch the movie. We pastored a small church when our children were at home and school age. They went to Sunday School, and the youth group was 4 children and the leaders were a couple in their 60’s with 8 grown children, so it wasn’t “wild.” There are good Sunday Schools and youth groups and bad ones, in my opinion. I don’t like the wild ones.
In the O.T., there was the “court of women,” where the women and small children seemed to be segregated (also the court of the gentiles), but this does not seem to have been carried into the N.T.
Anyway, my husband is a pastor; we are in our late 50’s/early 60’s. I am old enough to remember when all of this youth group stuff came into being. Interestingly enough, it was *not* the evil, greedy pastors starting them in order to keep youth to make more money (some people imply that, not you Kelly) — rather, the hemmorage had *already* started long before youth ministries were created. The youth ministries (I remember) were started as a desperate measure to *keep* the youth that were *already* leaving in droves. (I was Catholic back then, and I remember them sending a young priest around to hold a special youth meeting for us when I was about 16, to try to get us to be interested in our faith and in church.)
Unfortunately, the desperate measure does not seem to have worked.
I think the youth started leaving the churches way back then, when I was a kid, because the parents were not involved, did not take their faith seriously. My brother and I were simply dropped off at church, or took the church bus; our parents had long stopped going.
My husband has admonished his congregation that teaching children is the responsibility of the parents, “but,” he said, “if it is *my* responsibility, then at least see to it that you get them here.”
Many think it is the church’s responsibility to train the children, and then don’t bother to bring them, or go with them.
Also, many of the children who come to these activities, well, it is all they get, since their parents will not or cannot teach them at home. So I don’t want to totally condemn Sunday School or youth outreaches.
I remember being a teenager and desperately trying to fit in. I remember hanging around my parents and them constantly pushing me away to go “play” or be with my friends. I also remember the Sundays we went to mass together as a family and stayed together in church for an hour. We weren’t Christians then, but I remember the closeness and feeling like I belonged and that is what I want for my family today.
We are one of the only families that stay together and worship together in the sanctuary at my Evangelical church. Most of the other families send their children to Sunday school and children’s church. I was questioned one time why I didn’t send them down. My reply: “I don’t have anything against the people that lead the children’s church but I like to keep my family together. And I believe it is my responsibility to lead and teach my children.”
I watched the movie and would love to show it to a few people in my church. 🙂
Our church is small too. Our children sit with us for worship (singing) and prayer. At a certain point the youth pastor does a children’s sermon in the presence of the whole congregation.(It seems to be for the adults too!) After that the youngest children can leave for what they call Children’s Church which is a chance to get out, color, etc. I don’t really like the idea of children’s church but it is helpful for the youngest ones to get out of sitting so long. We don’t let our kids go once they are about 7 or 8. This arrangement has a nice family feel to it. ( I like the idea of churches where the whole family studies in preparation for the service like I have heard some family integrated churches described – the problem is there just isn’t something like that around us!!) We have been at big churches where they expect you to drop your kids at the nursery or a childrens ‘”building” on your way into church!!
We just can’t take that. I’ll admit there is some “unspoken” segregation. We have recently started staying in with the youth group on WED night (since there is no AWANA during the summer) One reason I, personally, want to do it is because the Bible Study the pastor does just seems non-relevant. The real issue is not the study (the Bible is always relevant) but that he is catering his message to the older people on Wed. In this case I feel it is the older people’s bias . I feel they see themselves as different from the younger people. Only a couple of them help, when help is asked of the whole church, for AWANA VBS, etc. The rest of them seem to like their quiet positions. (Not that they don’t do things for the church, but in my opinion they put themselves in a box) We have an interim pastor (long term relationship with him) great man, teaches the word. The older people like him and on Wed. night it seems he is mostly speaking to the older people .
I don’t know it just seems they don’t really feel they need to minister to the younger people or families in the church. They wanted to hire a youth pastor a couple of years ago and now it seems it is up to He and his wife and my husband and I , in their minds.
Anyway, I’m rambling…We all know how the church should be, but it is hard to find one the way we feel it should be.
Our church also has a children’s church after the initial praying, singing and announcements. It goes up to the third grade age child. After that age, parents are expected to keep their children in the sanctuary with them.
The only youth activity we have is a group that meets every other week, with my son (18), and a couple of friends (guys) that are 18 or older, teaching a John Piper study. It’s for youth ages 12-18, with oversight by the elders.
I don’t think any family should ever be forced to place their children in Sunday School or Children’s Church if they want their children with them.
Mary,
I agree with you, though I’m hearing more and more churches acting unbelievably toward families who opt to keep their children in worship with them. Recently a woman shared with me that at their mega church, where it was known that the pastor did not approve of children in service, a visitor came, sat in the balcony and when her baby cried he stopped the service and asked her to leave. She then shared that they had been asked, privately, by the pastor of their last church to leave because their choice to keep their children in church was “not lining up with the church’s philosophy”.
Such occurrences as this alarms me. It reminds me of the same thing that happens in the birth control debate–their seems to be very little neutrality. If you are the one choosing to do things differently than the norm, you are usually persecuted in some way.
At the very least, churches should most certainly allow the parents to make decisions about their own children and “suffer them to come unto Him” without forbidding.
I don’t know how it began to happen in our S.S. class but many entire families starting bringing their children in our adult S.S. class. I am thankful for that and when asked about it from other people that are not in the class, we just tell them that what we are learning is being studied by the whole family in our devotions..This is true but we also do not want to cause contention by putting down another class. I have heard just a few people say that they don’t think kids should be in there in case something “adult” needs to be discussed…Well, I’m an adult and I don’t want to hear about someone else’s really gross prayer request..you can only imagine..it has happened before and not that those things cannot be dealt with but on a more private manner.We have grown unmarried kids that come in our class also although they have a seperate “college and career class”.. Our older kids were in it for a while and they love the couple who teach it but have decided to come in ours because to just be honest…The teaching is more Biblical and relevant to their lives also..We all know that there is no perfect church..Not everyone will always agree with your decisions as parents but sometimes you just have to smile and give a gentle answer and move on. Our church is a Big..the minute they are out of High School and 18..send them off to college and so we had to adjust to this as we have only one who went off to college for 2 yrs..(a whole other story..lol) and Three who have not.Not everyone..even in the church..understands why “Grown unmarried kids” still live at home and we have to deal with that also..If they really want to know they will ask you and you will have a chance to tell them in a loving way and if they don’t ask..they are still watching. Love them anyway..Believe me–as your kids grow up..your kids will answer them in all honesty why they still want to be home. That is the Best Testimony and will give the Glory to the Lord..
There ARE adult topics (as in church discipline, which our church had to “do” a couple of weeks ago) that are not age-appropriate. Furthermore, there are books in the Bible (think Song of Solomon) which speak to sexual issues explicitly. While I am a firm believer in telling our kids about those kinds of topics, there are times when children don’t need to be in the same setting as adults.
We attend a church of about 2000, and it is a complete stereotype to paint large churches w/such a broad brush. Generalizing (as you did, Kelly, as well, in your comment about “disdain for elders” in the “youth culture”) isn’t too helpful. John MacArthur pastors what I would consider a “mega church” but the Word is rightly divided week after week, and people attend because, in that church, contrary to Ginger states, “biblical truth” DOES “attract the masses.” I mean, seriously, if we’re going to have a discussion, please let’s be intellectually honest here. Not ALL youth groups are the devil incarnate, not all of the youth culture (Kelly, I realize that you qualified your statement, but wonder why you would say it, only to qualify it immediately) is disdainful of elders (my 18-year-old son LOVES older people, and enjoys conversing w/them), and not all “mega churches” are out to entertain. Yeah, we have a cafe and a bookstore, but people gather to converse and enjoy fellow believers. Those things are not open during church (why do I even have to qualify that?), but they are useful resources. A larger church has more resources available to them because of the sheer number of people who attend. We happen to attend a church that located in a more affluent area, so the church is thriving financially. That enables our church to have a Hispanic ministry, an Iranian ministry (w/an Iranian pastor on staff), and all kinds of other ministries and outreaches that a home church, or a smaller church may not have. Nothing wrong w/those things, either way. Our church is Reformed, doctrinally sound, and our pastor teaches for a solid hour every Sunday. We have a counseling program in which people of the church train to effectively minister to those who are undergoing difficult times…in a biblical way (I know, that’s a novel approach). So, the idea that mega churches do nothing but tickle the ears of the hearer is nonsense. Instead, we should be heartened that there are still solid, bible-believing churches that are large, and that people are growing in their faith, and the kingdom of Christ is being advances.
I wrote the next part yesterday, but wanted to tweak it a bit, so if I repeat a couple of things that I’ve already written, please forgive me.
With regard to what you (Kelly) wrote yesterday: You should know by now that I do not advocate an abdication of our responsibility to teach our kids the Word. But, how do you know that the “model” to which you refer necessarily means that kids and adults are to be w/each other every waking minute of a church service? All of our kids hear the sermon given by our pastor every week. However, they also go to a second service in which they attend either a college or high school group. I can assure you, they are taught the Word–w/much power and boldness–in those venues, as well. Those venues, though, give them an opportunity to interact w/people in their age group and fellowship w/them, and encourage each other. What is wrong w/that (I would capitalize those words, but don’t want to appear as though I’m shouting)?? Surely your kids have times when they interact w/each other or w/friends (outside of your presence). My daughter, who is 15, routinely signs up to help folks in our church who need help w/their yard work…she recently helped two other youth group members cut down some branches for a widow. My recent college-graduate daughter volunteers to watch a baby for a young single mom on Wednesday mornings gratis. Those things are made possible because those ministries are available via the youth group and because my daughter attends a college group. My kids LOVE interacting w/elderly people. My son, who is 18, regularly sits w/an elderly woman in church just so he can talk to her and glean insight, and listen to her.
Kelly, the idea that I am advancing the notion that God’s sovereignty trumps our parenting is to misunderstand what I stated. I have written too many comments (on past posts) for you to think that, BTW. I am saying, though, that the film (at least what I’ve seen so far) has the temerity to blame the church…if it’s not blaming the church, who is it blaming? The beginning of the film is filled w/stats about how young people have left the church in droves. I merely submit that these are matters of the heart, and, while we need–and MUST–teach our kids the Gospel every day (to steal a phrase), my kids are responsible to God for their attitudes, and their faith and practice. Perhaps I didn’t say it well enough the first time around, but, from where I sit, the film opens w/a whole lot of blame (and the culprit are youth programs). Yeah, I’m responsible to God for how I raise my kids, BUT, even if I don’t obey God in the way that I raise my kids, THEY–ALONE–are culpable to God for their heart.
Moreover, you indicted the “youth culture,” and then quickly qualified it. Please specify: What “culture where adolescence (i.e. a man-made period of permissive irresponsibility) is nurtured and authority for the elderly is disdained” have you observed who are guilty of your indictment? Are these kids in your circle of friends? Are they in the culture at large? Is this a generalization? In what “general” sense? How many teens have you encountered? You just charged a whole segment of the population w/that statement.
I have yet to see Scripture where it backs up your assertion that kids must stay w/their parents in family worship. Because Paul spoke to the church in terms of younger women/older women, etc., certainly doesn’t imply that the church structure can only be conducted w/all kids and babies present. If that was/is the case, then you best meet in homes for church, because that is the way it was done in the NT. There must be latitude if it isn’t explicitly stated/commanded. You talk about the whole counsel of Scripture, but that is how you (and the family-integrated church movement) interpret it. I accept that this is your belief system. But, why is it that you don’t accept that other parents who love their kids just as much, and teach their kids the ways of Christ, and pray fervently that God will capture their hearts, have a different mindset?
OK, off my soapbox…and Kelly, you and are I tight–we are, after all, FB friends! That’s gotta count for something…but we also don’t see eye-to-eye on everything, and that’s a good thing.
Reply away.
Cathy,
I know you have strong convictions about these and other issues, as do I, so I don’t feel a need to hash out most of your points. There are a few things I’d like to reply to…
(Oh, and for those reading who may not have read all the comments, I did not say that a mega church was not capable of being a grounded one. Interestingly, though, a local mega church recently got a pastor that spoke some hard, solid truth and many of his members left. I think the “general observation” rule applies here too. Typically, where people are flocking, there’s not much of a narrow road.)
Speaking of John MacArthur, he addresses this very issue beautifully in a video series he did on “pragmatism”. Here is a link where he summarizes his problem with a pragmatic approach to ministry: http://preacherboy316.blogspot.com/2009/12/pragmatism-and-pulpit-by-john-macarthur.html
It’s not about finding a “proof text” for or against church segregation, but about understanding the primary reasons for “doing church”, then following the principles that ARE present in Scripture for best carrying out this directive.
I made generalizations about the youth culture because it’s there. Understandably, if you are the exception, that would make you angry. Homeschooling gets generalizations that irk me too. From where do I get my generalizations? From observation in many churches I’ve been in, from my experience teaching high school in a Christian school where most of the students and parents professed Christ, but where the majority of students didn’t exhibit any resemblance of Him.
Our youth culture, in general, is not respectful to authority, does not embrace the lordship of Christ in their lives and ARE leaving the faith. Statistics attest to it…it’s really not a generalization when the numbers are there.
I know what happened in our youth culture (in our little, well-meaning church), my husband attests as well, and I’ve witnessed over and over what heavy peer influence does to lure children from the influence of their family. And yes, we do embrace the gathering of peers together, but it is done in a much more family-integrated way 😉 I know you’re tired of that word, but I can’t think of another way to say it. We get together and it’s just different.
I think the film’s intent is the same as mine…not to make anyone feel bad but to say, “Hey, something’s terribly amiss with our youth and we are willing to take a hard look and see if we can figure it out!” Is that so wrong? I just want to offer the possibility of something much more encouraging–something I’ve gotten to be a part of and can testify to its power.
Wow!! This has been an interesting discussion..I think we can all agree on that. I think that it is obvious that there are Big Churches out there that still Preach the Gospel and Small Churches also. Personally for me..One of the things that I see as a Huge Problem (this can happen in a small church as well as a large one)….trying to think how to put this…Is the Entertainment Philosophy..There are so many “good things” in the Church and yes we want our kids to experience “good things”..Being a homeschool mom it was easy to fall into this because I wanted my kids to have good activities with good people..We shouldn’t really look to the church to provide the entertainment for our children..Entertainment is different then fellowship. I appreciated what one of the posts shared about her older children helping in different ways with people in the church!! It really is all about Serving!! Now, don’t get me wrong here..I am all for young people having fun..at times…I Love to have fun with my family but I personally think that is why We as Christian families and The Church are losing so many of our young people!! They Want To See That The Gospel Is True and Real!! Do our Kids..Big and Little..See the Gospel lived out in our Homes and in the Church..One of the things that has really turned my older kids off is the Hypocrasy in the Church..What about the Hypocrasy in their Parents life..OUCH!! There are many times I have to ask forgiveness for just that!!Our kids see it ladies and it hurts them.They will see it just like we do but one of the things I try to do when this comes up (not covering up the problem)but trying to bring them back to Biblical Truth..Scripture…and to encourage them to see things as the Lord would.. I want to teach my kids to really Love People and Serve them..This doesn’t mean they have to be best friends with everybody but to Love people as Christ does..Last year my Husband and Three adult kids were able to go on a Missions Trip with twelve others from our church.I prayed for years for this and what a Life Changing experience it was and they got to share it together!! They will never forget it!! You can do this together as a family in your own town. Ask the Lord for Wisdom..There will always be “issues” with the church..Sometimes you may need to take your family and leave…My adult kids have been hurt by much hypocrasy But they have also seen the way a Body of Believers come together to help one another in a true time of need and I Thank God for that!!I will just give a couple of examples here..My 22 yr. old son passed out at church a couple of months ago. My husband was with him and caught him as he went down..My kids saw the Body of Christ in Action as he brought just the right help at the right time.It would take way to much time to go into all details but We all saw the Hand of God throughout the entire thing!! BTW..he’s fine..was dehydrated.(needed to drink more water). Also, not to long ago at church..a friends unsaved son went forward and accepted Christ. A grown young man in his 30’s and as he knelt on the alter and prayed..you could hear his cries to the Lord..I don’t think there was a dry eye in church. They have seen Christ change this young mans life!! Our kids want to see that what we have been teaching them is real and True!!They want to See the Power of God!! Okay..I’m almost done..I think it is Vital that we as Parents whether we are in a Big Church or Little Church or seperate S.S.class or whatever need to really Pray and ask God to show us what we are to do for our family and then Live it!! My kids have grown up in a Christian Homes their whole lives so they can’t really look back and see what God has brought them out of like my husband and I can. They don’t want to hear us having “roast pastor or friend” for lunch when we come home from church or any other time!! Thanks for putting up with me…Love to you All!!
Cathy,
While I agree with you that at times Children do not need to be in the midst of things pertaining to “Church Discipline” I do need to say that when it comes to matters of anything sexual..and yes..I know..Song of Solomon..that those things do not even need to be discussed in A Sunday School or Church Setting..unless it involves church discipline..I have seen this happens and it’s just gross..
Everything depends on how the Youth Group conducts itself. Quite simply, if it teaches accountability, there will be accountability, and if not, there won’t be. The problem is groups acting in outrageous ways to entertain rather than teach teens and parent snot doing their own individual jobs.
Keri,
“…that those things do not even need to be discussed in A Sunday School or Church Setting?” Really? Song of Songs is part of Scripture. Why shouldn’t a pastor teach from it? Sex is holy and good. Romans speaks to the sin of homosexuality…should those things be ignored from the pulpit? I’m not talking about bringing in graphic overheads, but, sometimes, there has to be discreet, blunt talk. It is often necessary, and not always age-appropriate for young children.
Cathy
Sorry Cathy,
I by no means meant that Song of Solomon should never be taught or spoken of. I also did not mean that the sin of homosexuality should never be addressed..I was basically talking about when someone speaks in great detail over something that could be dealt with in private. Just wanted to clarify that.Blessings to you today..
Me again, I guess I haven’t had the opportunity to vent about these issues and am enjoying getting some wise input…I’ve really struggled with the church issue for a long time. I know it sounded like God was leading us to stay at this church, but then again I have doubts about it. I’m really not satisfied with the fellowship there. I was over there last night to decorate our classroom for VBS and the fellowship ( I happened to meet some people there) was stale, if non-exhistent. I talked to my husband about it a couple of months ago (how it was really a burden to me and my concern that the kids have the best influences. Their only exposure to other home schooled children is through the support group. They do not feel confident in that group because most of the kids have friends from their church. We are the only homeschoolers at our church) I have felt we should go to a local church that is peodominantly made up of homeschoolers ( I know some of them through the local homeschool support group) Anyway I had prayed earnestly that God would open a door and send someone in my Husband’s path to invite him to that church (he did not want to go due to a bad first impression from a long time ago). Nothing happened.
I have worked with some of these people over the last year in the homeschool group and know they are solid christian people who really seek the Lord. There is more true fellowship with them than there is at our church.( I know they are not perfect.) I don’t know whether to push for us to visit the church or not. We have been through a lot with churches and right now I think my husband would rather stay where we are because he doesn’t really think there is better anywhere else. I am afraid to push it because the church may not be what I think it is (as no church is perfect). It also bothers my husband to leave a ministry (which we sort of have with the children at our church esp those from our neighborhood). So , I’m asking input. Should I leave it alone since my husband is not led that way. Is it right for me to want to look for a church where more people are like minded? (I say homeschoolers because they are more likely to have similar priorities and values.)
Lorrie,
One of the problems we had in a small church..about 75 people was that there was no deacon board or assoc.pastor. We didn’t have a problem with this at first but then when something went terribly wrong and wasn’t dealt with, we only had the main pastor.He did not know how to deal with it.We stayed as long as we could and had to leave.That was about 5 yrs.ago. I would pray hard and Trust the Lord to guide your husband and yes..by all means..talk to him about it and give him your concerns.That is what we are to do..For some weird reason my email does not seem to be working but will try to fix it tonight..I hope this has been an encouragement and I so do understand.Blessings!!!
Please keep praying for your husband. I was in a similar situation about 2 years ago. I was becoming more and more dissatisfied with my current church. I prayed for about 5 months before I spoke to my husband regarding the situation. After much prayer, scripture searching, and a couple discussions with our former pastor; we left. Our current church is not a family integrated church, but children are welcomed in the sanctuary and the youth ministry is fairly limited and run by the parents. The transition felt very slow, but once we were on the same page it seemed to take off in a hurry. Remember God will bless you for honoring the decision your husband makes. It may seem difficult to wait, but God is capable of changing his heart.
I truly wish people would stop going to these mega-churches, Kelly. I know I’m prejudiced because we pastor a small church, but honestly, I rarely find anybody truly happy with their mega-churches; all they do is complain about stuff like what you just said — being forced to be separated from their children if they don’t want to; dictator/CEO “pastors,” a seeker-sensitive agenda, lack of true Bible preaching, an impersonal nature where nobody cares about “me,” I could go on and on.
However, people WILL go to these huge business-like conglomerations because they have a WalMart mentality, bigger must mean better, and it IS exciting — the professional style rock bands, an information booth, vending machines, programs for everybody, the place is hopping, and of course, coffee and donuts.
When I ask people why they go to these churches that they are obviously not happy with because nobody knows them, I get, “well, they have coffee and donuts.” You can eat coffee and donuts at home or at a donut shop, or on your way to church if you get up early enough. Good grief!
And, it must be said, people today LIKE anonymity — nobody knows if you have been unscripturally divorced multiple times, or if you are co-habiting with your boyfriend/girlfriend. Nobody even notices you, so nobody calls you to account. But, in spite of the anonymity and the donuts, nobody really seems happy with these churches.
I suggest people drive a little ways out of town and try a smaller church. Yes, sometimes they are hard to break into, but it can be done; really, most of the people will try to be welcoming. Beats being unhappy and complaining all the time. I have never known a small church to force people to do anything — most of the time, all of us are glad to see a new person.
I disagree that nobody likes those mega churches. Professing believers (who aren’t really believers) love churches like that, and frankly they probably like complaining about it too (that doesn’t mean they actually want change;) ). They are comfortable, the praise & worship is entertaining, and like you said they offer coffee and donuts (if not giant cinnamon rolls and lattes). Also like you said, they don’t practice church discipline or even accountability, so there’s no fear of biblical rebuke.
Small churches are not in and of themselves better, but mega churches do beg the question: Why are so many attracted to this church? Because biblical truth just doesn’t attract masses of people. It offends and turns people away.
Would a church of 2000 be a mega church? I’ve been in big and small churches and each one was doing what God wanted them to do where they were at….I have loved every church I was a member of in my life. (and I’m not a “patsy with rose colored glasses”). I’ll bet where there is much persecution and those who go to church have to be committed then much of the problems we are discussing disappear. Thanks for this discussion ..iron sharpens iron.
Yes, I agree, Ginger — people complain a lot, but if they didn’t really like those churches deep down, they wouldn’t go. And, I don’t mean to imply that small churches are wonderful just because they are small. They are made up of human beings, too. Just my personal experience, the larger the church, the more they seem to make people do things like put their children in a nursery or whatever whether they want to or not. The more you are just a number, and there is no accountability. The pastor (who is frequently more of a CEO) also seems to not be accountable to anybody. I’m just talking out of personal experience and what people that I know tell me.
I don’t know how many people in a church would constitute a mega-church. The largest I ever attended was about 800 people and there did seem to be accountability there. It took longer to get to know people than in a small church, but if you hung around long enough, everybody knew you.
I am currently watching the film and thus far, I would have to agree with most of what is being said about the method of teaching in the church: age segregation, splitting up the family. This is not something that has always existed. The world’s way of education has been adopted by the church. If you caught the quotes from the founder of the SS movement, he was afraid it would split up the family. The Greek, pagan idea was to split up the family. To quote someone from the film, “…the promoters of age segregated education were all men were at war with God. If the church adopts Athens, it will become like Athens…” Spiritual training is primarily the job of the parents: Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
In the past, I have been a member of a church that proudly used to state that the heart of it was the young people. That was their focus. Is this right? When the church was looking for a minister of music and having a hard time finding one that suited, the question was raised if we needed one due to budget constraints. I responded that if we had to do without any paid position, it should be the youth pastor. My viewpoint was demonized by the pastor, who USED to be the youth pastor and was the founder of a nationally used youth program, by saying that, “SOME people think we don’t need a youth pastor because it is the responsibility of the parents to train their young people. But WE have been trained and know more.” To me, that was ARROGANCE of the highest order. Where did he get his authority for this stance? Also, if the pastor knows more about the Bible and reaching young people (which looking at the fruit of the youth ministry in that church, that would be in doubt), why not disciple the men/fathers so they can do the job they are called to do by GOD?
I would also use as an example of worshipping God in a way He has not prescribed is the golden calf. If you look at the story, it was to be a feast to the LORD. Did He accept that worship? I think we all know the answer to that.
Let the Bible alone be the determining source for our doctrine. And let the doctrines and traditions of men fall into oblivion.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
My first experience with splitting the family up in worship service was back in the early 60’s when I was Catholic. My parish ran a Mass every hour on the hour, from 7 a.m. till 1 p.m. The nuns insisted that all us Catholic school children must attend the 9 a.m. Mass and designated it “the children’s Mass” (I don’t know why, it was no different than any other Mass, no special sermon or anything). The Catholic children who went to public school were encouraged to go to the 9 a.m. one, too. When us Catholic school children showed up for school on Monday, the nuns would ask us if we went to the children’s mass, and God help us if we said that we had gone to any other one.
At the children’s Mass, we were separated from our parent and made to sit in a group, with the nuns, the idea being that the nuns could keep an eye on us and make us behave. We had Mass in the Catholic school auditorium, as our parish had outgrown the chapel. If you misbehaved, the nun in charge would make you get up and stand under the side windows of the auditorium along the side aisle, along with the other offenders, all in a row, where everybody could see you and the other kids would make faces at you and taunt you after Mass or at school the next day. The nuns didn’t make the public school Catholic kids stand under the window, but they held us Catholic school kids to a higher standard.
So, that’s my story! I only had to stand under the windows once; I made sure I never had to do it again!