375
My friend, Jennie Chancey, and I were recently talking about the necessity to tear down some really strong and destructive stereotypes of “biblical womanhood”, specifically as it relates to keepers at home. In fact, she has had the opportunity to do an interview with a popular women’s magazine about this very thing.
The lady who interviewed her was delightfully astonished at some things Jennie said that didn’t match up with her preconceived idea of a woman who embraces biblical submission.
We know why the world embraces feminism, and why words like “submission” ruffles their feathers, and why they feel a need to tear down biblical womanhood. But when the body of Christ starts to reinterpret Scripture and redefine women’s roles because it makes them feel uncomfortable, using words like “white-washed feminist”, we’ve been given to serious deception.
I’m really not sure what “the picture” is that feminist-thinking depicts of a woman who embraces her role in the home, but I think it’s safe to say they paint one of a cowering, inferior woman who is bossed around by an ego-inflated man, not allowed to pursue any of her own desires, possibly uneducated, swallowing the burden of changing diapers and cleaning all day because she has been brainwashed to believe ‘tis her role.
Maybe there are some real life examples of families who have mistakenly bought into this picture, but I’m hear to tell ya, this ‘aint‘ biblical womanhood!
And because I have the privilege of knowing so many exemplary keepers at home, maybe I forget that the stereotypes are still so strong. These women are nothing like those stereotypes! When someone makes a flinging accusation, then, of “my belief”, and then goes on to describe some bizarre description of what they think that is, I’m dumbfounded. (It’s also interesting that feminists are on the look out to see if we break the mold…they comb through and wait for the “ah ha!” moment when they can say, “See, you’re a feminist too!” So funny.)
In the first place, just because we believe what the Bible says about “women submitting to your own husbands”, doesn’t mean we subscribe to an oppressed view of women. We actually know what that means and therefore don’t have to reinterpret Scripture to make ourselves feel better. There is beautiful freedom in the loving submission between a husband and wife if you really understand it!
As a universal rule, we ALL submit to someone and something. Hierarchy of authority must exist. An employee submits to an employer, even if that employee is the manager. Citizens submit to the law, subdivision tenets submit to the housing committee, etc., etc. Submission only has a negative connotation when used in marriage.
And just so we remember, as Jesus and the church are illustrated as a Bride and Groom, look where the power of the church comes from? The Bride, the church of Christ, voluntarily recognizes the God-given authority over her and is empowered because of her willing submission.
Jesus doesn’t brow beat her and take advantage of that submissive spirit, but rather, He exalts her to a place of honor, as he “lays down his life for her”. One more precious irony of God–submission evokes honor! As we lovingly submit, our husband’s nature is inclined to honor us more and more! Willing submission of a wife turns into mutual submission in practice. That’s his nature!
My next post will knock down some stereotypes on a more practical level–what does she look like? Why does she have more freedom than the world’s model? How is the Kingdom empowered by women who embrace biblical womanhood?
39 comments
I can’t wait for your next post!! 🙂
I loved “Passionate Housewives, Desperate for God”, which I recently bought, which is co-authored by Jenny Chancey.
Feminists see submission as subjugation, as with an enslaved person, rather than voluntary submission to a beloved husband who loves you in return. Big difference.
I think that feminists use abused women like some of the women in the FLDS (I also bought, “Escape” by Carolyn Jessup — wow, what a book!) as examples of submission, which is in reality, subjugation.
Many unbelievers take Biblical mandates like submission to a “ridiculous extreme” in order to justify their not obeying them at all.
Oh, Kelly, I didn’t realize that you were expecting. Congratulations!
Oh, also, your site has been “freezing” up a lot, since you put the latest You-Tube video on, Nov. 29.
Congratulations on your baby!! We are about 8-9 weeks ahead of you with #5&6! How exciting!!! Take care!
Kelly:
Hey! When I came to your blog, I saw the infamous babystrology post. Yeah! Congratulations on number eight (and just for the record, I may be childless, but you won’t hear any “ugh” comments from me – smiles)!
Anyway, now about today’s post. I have to agree with Civilla. I think feminists DO USE extreme cases where women are unfortunately abused and “enslaved” by uncaring husbands in order to prove the point that wives who submit to their husbands are total fools.
I just recently finished a wonderful book entitled, “Biblical Womanhood in the Home” which talked about what submission really is. She mentions that there is a difference between submission and surrendering. The later is “just going along” with what your told (e.g., being a door mat) where as submission is built upon love, trust, and respect.
However, I think many people, like Civilla states, take the submission mandate in the bible to the extreme. As a result, I think this causes individuals to loathe submission. This is unfortunate.
I can’t wait for the next post, either! 🙂
Ashley
http://www.homesteadblogger.com/Jonash2004
Congratulations on your little one. What a blessing.
Kelly, you are too much, lol! I think I’ll send all my “horrible” feminists friends over to post. We are a terrible army of nasty people that insist that women work, you know!
I wonder why you feel that stereotyping others is okay – when you feel we have all been unfair to you? I’m curious.
Delete away! It clearly is giving you a wonderfully Christian spirit of self-righteousness, and I wouldn’t want to interfere with that.
MOD,
I’ve already explained that I don’t have the time or energy to engage with you. We believe in opposite things. I’m not going to succumb to your theolgy, and you aren’t to mine, without a miracle of the heart.
I don’t have to apologize for deleting your comments. Nor is it out of a spirit of self-righteousness (you’re reaching, girl!)
Your comments aren’t helpful, thought-provoking, respectful or beneficial to my readers.
But thanks for all the traffic!
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! I am praising the Lord for the gift of new life in your family! We are expecting our 6th and have 193 days to go! How are you feeling? Many Blessings to you and yours, Jen in al
Great news about your new little blessing! Our family is rejoicing with you!
Thank you for all the congratulations!
A friend of mine thought it would be so fun to not say anything, and just wait until the baby is born and then post pictures. I thought about that and then knew I couldn’t keep a secret that long. And my daughter said, “Mom, all your blog friends would be mad at you!” LOL!
So, I just had to sneak the ticker in and see how many noticed it! I really haven’t known very long.
We are so excited…you’d think my kids are all getting their first sibling!
Hey Kelly,
I hope you still remember me…Jessica Warren Crowe from Hardins Chapel way back when. I’ve been reading your blog every day for about the past year but have never commented. I ran into your dad at Sam’s in town forever ago and he told me about it. I saw that you were expecting and I thought now would be a great time to “come forward” and say congratulations. I find your blog very interesting and it certainly challenges my thinking. So hey…it feels good to make myself public and be back in touch with you via the world wide web.
Jessica
P.S. I cannot believe how much Bria has grown. She’s a young woman now!
Wow, Jessica, great to hear from you!!!
Thanks for “coming out” 🙂
I’m so excited for you! Congratulations on #8!!!! I know you feel so blessed! I would be too! Have a Joyous Week!
Hi, Kelly.
The problem with this system is that the boundaries are left up to the man to describe. Meaning, the woman will only have as much freedom as her husband gives her.
How wonderful that you and Jennie feel you have so much freedom (seriously, I really mean that). But plenty of women with controlling husbands don’t have that.
They are micro-managed and it doesn’t matter what they say or what they’ve tried, they have a husband who feels that is best. For those women, what does your philosophy offer them?
I would love to see you address abused women sometime. Because in patriarchal homes, I’ve seen many happy wives. But I’ve also seen many abused wives. And in patriarchy, there is NO HOPE for them.
They are counseled to stay and to submit, but the submission, despite what the books all promise, only make the husbnad feel he is that much more entitled to micro-manage (hey, she doesn’t put up a fight, so why not?). It’s actually proven, interestingly, that abusers get worse when they are not challenged, when their behavior is not met with firm refusal. They are much like 2 year olds, mentally—and we all know what happens to 2 year olds when they always get their way. THey get WORSE!
These are the wives that slowly lose their joy, through no fault of their own. What does Jesus say to those wives? What does your philosophy say to them? This is what concerns me deeply about the patriarchy movement—not the happy marriages, but the ones that are dismal.
Because all power is centralized in that hands of hte husband, and the wife’s power is only hers if *he* sees fit to give it to her (in other words, she only has authority over what he says she may have it in), if she marries a man who is less than ideal, she is in deep deep trouble. Under other philosophies, she has recourse (even soft complementarianism gives her the ability to put her foot down and refuse, in the name of love, to be micromanaged).
But under patriarchy, when the husband is viewed as her authority (because of the way patriarchy interprets “head”) if he tells her he wants her to keep a journal chronicaling what she does every 15 minutes, all day long…she has to. If he gives her lists on how she is to clean the house, little detail by little detail, before she is allowed to go to bed at night…she has to. If he decides to treat her as a young daughter instead of as an adult…she has to put up with it—and not only that, but smile and be joyful, too.
What does patriarchy offer to those women? It seems to me that it comes down very firmly on the side of the abusive man.
I have no bones to pick with ANYONE in a happy marriage. I think that happy marriages are awesome things! And if someone is happy and fulfilled and recieving life-giving growth from God through the marriage paradigm of patriarchy, that is wonderful.
But for women married to abusive men…patriarchy is one of the most destructive things for her, it seems to me (and, well, it was for me). I am concerned about that, becuase I am sure you have women just like that who make up your readership.
I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Warmly,
Molly
Molly,
You ask an important question…
“How wonderful that you and Jennie feel you have so much freedom (seriously, I really mean that). But plenty of women with controlling husbands don’t have that….what does your philosophy have to offer thes women?”
The important thing that needs to be distinguished is what you call “my philosophy” and what the Bible clearly teaches.
I do not uphold a man-made philosophy or system. I only echo what is clearly written in Scripture and believe (because I’ve seen it) that God’s written word offers us the “best life now”, tongue in cheek.
What you describe is NOT biblical patriarchy. You are describing the abuse of what some maybe perceive as such???
Personally, I don’t know any women or families like you describe. (I’m sure they’re out there.)
But what I see happening is a sinful or poor example being held up as a reason to disregard Scripture.
Just because there are those who abuse or misinterpret what God clearly teaches, doesn’t give us reason to decide it’s the *command* that’s wrong. It’s the people who are wrong. God is still right, and we can’t readjust our obedience around what others are doing.
There are many, many women, unfortunately, abused by their husbands. It doesn’t mean we don’t get married…it means we try and teach men (beginning with our own sons) how to treat women the way God intended.
The destruction I see as much worse is a turning away from God’s Word in a relex action because of those who have abused it. This is not for the Christian.
Truth is always good and right. It must remain our starting point. It doesn’t change.
Molly,
May I add something I think is of GRAVE importance…
I feel certain that perhaps some of these families you give as examples of “husband ruling over” and “wife being miserable” could easily be attributed to her rebellious spirit. We have to be careful to draw the line between honest, reasonable requests a husband might make in the best interest of his family, and “abuse”.
If a woman has a heart of rebellion, she refuses to submit at any level (God, church, husband,)and will justify her refusal by claims of “oppression”.
CAREFUL! The whole Christian life is about submission and willingly being a *slave* to Christ. If you’re not “into” authority, you might want to find another religion (not *you*, just whomever.)
Many in the church are bucking any type of accountability or authority. The Christian cannot do that. We are to be as Christ, willingly submitting to whatever authority is given us–and sometimes our task may not be pleasant!
If my husband prefers I write down a list of something, and he is lovingly leading us, with a spirit of Christ I should be eager to do that, just as I am eager to obey God (obey your husbands “as to the Lord.”)
Just as a boss requests things, and a good employee fulfills the request because he trusts that the boss knows better about the company, so should we not get all bent out of shape because our husbands ask us to *do* something.
Personally my husband has few requests, so I can’t really identify with this. But a husband requiring something of his wife is not tyranny.
Kelly,
Thanks for the reply. I am so glad you are teaching your sons to be good men. But maybe I wasn’t clear. I am wondering, what does an abused woman in your system do? It’s too late for her—she’s alreayd married to a man who is abusive. So what help can we offer her? What happens when the woman is righteous but the husband is evil? How does patriarchy help that woman?
I realize that you believe patriarchy is Biblical. I am sure you know that I do not. Well, let me take that back. I actually do believe that the Bible can be used to support patriarchy! (Surprised? lol)…
But I also believe that there is an equally powerful argument, from Scripture, for a decidedly non-patriarchal relationship between husband and wife.
As a woman married to someone who is mentally wired to need to control (this isn’t my opinion only, it is also a diagnosis—-and I believe there are many women in my shoes, who have husbands with mental illness, personality disorders, etc), when I realized that there was an equally strong argument, Biblically, for equality, I slowly, carefully studying and praying all the way, switched.
The reason was because patriarchy offered me no help. There was nothing for me but a life of suffering…not the good kind of suffering, the life-destroying kind of suffering.
I saw the fruit of destruction (not the good kind of death that brings forth life, spoken of in John 12:24, but more the kind of death from the destroyer, the kind that just…kills, snuffs out life) and I knew that we could not continue allowing such destruction to have free reign in our home. Under patriarchy, there was no protection for me. Under patriarchy, I had no right to make it stop, to demand that it stop.
It is no picnic to be married to someone who is not well mentally, regardless of what marriage paradigm one is in, so it’s not as if there is any marriage paradigm that “cures” mental illness…I certainly do not believe that egalitarian fixes everything-ha-there is no “fix” for these kinds of diseases of the brain, where the brain does not work properly and so thinking is warped.
But I must say, living under patriarchy made a bad thing, a difficult thing, into a horribly horribly destructive thing—something that hurt not just me, but my husband as well…and, even worse, our children.
Instead of confining the disease to him (though we had no idea there was a disease in play at the time, of course), patriarchy made it ALL of our disease. After all, he was the one who set the family vision, right, that we were all supposed to follow? Well, when someone is mentally ill…gulp!
Because I spent all those years obeying him, trying my best to carry out his vision, which involved perfect kids, a perfect house, a spotless life, perfect obedience, etc, the only comparable analogy I can think of is akin to a 2 year old who is never told “no.”
We all know it’s no fun to live with a spoiled two year old, but imagine a spoiled two year old as your *authority.*
How does patriarchy work for a woman with a husband who is mentally ill? What answers would you give to a wife in that situation? How can he be the authority when she literally has to lead or the entire family will suffer terribly?
I never saw anything offered to me, other than to act sweet and child-like so that he never feels threatened by your competance(Fascinating Womanhood), submit and obey cheerfully even if he hits you and to embrace being abused and suffering wrongfully (Debi Pearl’s CTBHH), etc.
I knew of very few women in an abusive relationship when I was in patriarchy. I have since met SO MANY women who have had experiences similar to mine. I think one of the reason I didn’t hear about it often within patriarchy is because we were all taught NEVER to talk about our husbands in a disparaging way, to keep our marriage problems private, to always always honor him with our speech, etc.
So in the name of honoring God and respecting my husband, I kept all of this quiet. Nobody knew, NO ONE.
In fact, not even me, in many ways, becuase of my silence. I thought most of the above abusive behavior was all my fault…and this is another trait that most abused women share. They simply don’t know, they aren’t aware of how bad things are [like a frog in a pot of boiling water].
I had no perspective, since I didn’t have the voices of anyone else offering wisdom to me, so I believed my husband, who constantly told me that everything was my fault, that if only I was better, more perfect, then everything would be fine…
Again, I think it’s awesome when women are fulfilled and full of righteous fruit. If a couple feels that patriarchy is God’s way, and they have a healthy happy relationship, I, as a decided Christian egalitarian, think it’s best to back off and let them enjoy their marriage! Just because I don’t agree with the paradigm, who cares? Don’t mess with a good thing, you know? Love trumps a lot of things, including less-than-desirable paradigms (my opinion).
But one has to take into account that not all husbands are healthy men, especially when giving advice to a large swath of wives.
You said, and I have to say here that I really appreciated this, that you are NOT promoting “the idea of a cowering, inferior woman who is bossed around by an ego-inflated man, not allowed to pursue any of her own desires…”
Well said and thank you. But I do want to very gently point out that you can say that *because* your husband has given you permission to not be that cowering woman. Sadly, thanks to sin and brokeness, something our planet has all too much of, some husbands *like* the idea of a cowering woman. What does patriarchy offer to that woman?
This is a strong concern of mine, obviously, because of my own experience and because, through that hell, I have discovered that the exact same thing has happened to many other women. They’re there, and some of them are reading this blog. I guess I would just ask you to not forget about them.
With Warmth,
Molly
Btw, in response to what you just wrote about rebellion, my heart was the opposite of rebellious. (I know that our hearts can be deceitful, but I do say the following with truth and honesty: I was a full on zealout in my desire to obey, out of my love for the God who saved me).
I strove to honor God by obeying my husband, and I submitted to abject humiliation, time and time and time again, feeling horribly guilty for daring to feel humiliated, actually, because I so desperately and honestly wanted to obey God.
Even now, my husband agrees with this. Though I think he’d like things to go back to the way they were sometimes, he himself admits that I wholly threw myself into “Biblical womanhood” with total abandon. Those who know me in real life can testify to the same thing.
I say that becuase often “rebellion” is used as a trump card against the woman who has an abusive marriage: if only she wasn’t rebellious, all would have gone well.
What this does, however, is prop up the wrong thinking in the mind of the abusive man. It is a very dangerous thing to do.
Warmly,
Molly
Molly,
Firstly, I offer my sincerest compassion for you and other women who find themselves in abusive marriages. I truly can’t fathom it and know it must be torture.
And yet, I maintain that the problem lies in the abusive man, not in the biblical model of marriage. God is never wrong.
I think you’re telling me that because your husband was abusive the only way you knew to deal with it was to redefine biblical submission.
It seems to me the issue was your husband’s need to redefine biblical submission, through counseling, church help, whatever pressure was necessary, etc.
It was HIS definition that was wrong.
I am prone to think of any other command of Scripture that rubs against our sinful, corrupt messiness. We still must hold truth as truth.
Abortion is a sin–always. Even when a woman has been raped, even when it will bring hardship, even when it hits our family. Absolute truth must rule where Scripture has spoken it.
The messes–they have to be dealt with. But not by redefining truth.
What do I say to the abused woman? I am so sorry. Hopefully she has her church and family to exert necessary pressure on her husband to help her. Hopefully, by temporary separation and discipline of the church, his heart will be turned. I certainly think adding feminist teaching to the mix only makes things worse.
There is certainly not an easy answer, and should make us all the more vigilant to train our sons and daughters to seek God-honoring spouses.
Thank you for your kind comments, Kelly.
The tricky thing with mental illness is that it isn’t always there to detect. Many come on in young adulthood to the early thirties… It can be really shocking, as well as happen so slowly that you don’t even really notice it…
While discipling our children to a healthy mature adulthood, there are some things we cannot train our children not to be or not to marry into. No one is responsible when a mind falls prey to a genetic disease. The MRI makes that plain, just as no one is responsible when cerebral palsy makes a body not work properly.
🙁
The question becomes one of seeking to glorify God in the brokeness. Is there room in the Kingdom for those of us who will never have the ideal home, no matter how much we try? Is there room in the camp for those of us who will never have the picture-perfect life?
There are some things in this fallen broken world that just happen—-the death of a child, the crippling of a loved one, the onset of mental illness in someone who was once mentally well.
The other thing I wanted to add (*smile*) is that I do believe in Biblical submission. I practice Scripture that tells us to submit one to another, to be gracious, to be gentle, to be kind-hearted, and to not use our authority to lord over but to be a servant instead. I am also learning to practice Biblical wholeness. Like saying no to abuse instead of submitting to it, like drawing firm and clear boundaries for what is and what is not acceptable. Abusive men don’t like that. But it is much more loving, Biblically-speaking, to refuse to let them be abusive, than it is to submit to the abuse sweetly.
As you know, I don’t believe that Paul intended kephale(head) to be used in the same way that our English language uses the word (as leader). There was a Greek word for “head” that means leader. It was arche. Paul’s choice to not use that word speaks volumes, I think.
Can you give grace to those of us who question whether kephale means leader? It is a valid question. And if not, why? What makes it an invalid question?
There is, interestingly, no verse in the entire Bible that says a husband is the leader of the wife, or that a husband has authority over the wife. Shocking, perhaps, but entirely true!
It is we who say those things, not the Bible. So when it comes down to it, the idea that husbands-are-leaders-of-wives is based on *interpretation.* The Bible does not say that a husband is a leader, or an authority, or a priest of the wife.
So I would respectfully ask that those who do not believe that husbands are in authority over their wives be given respect for being Biblical. What we disagree on is not the Bible, it is the way we intepret the Bible. If the Bible said that husbands were to lead their wives, then I would admit to being outside the authority of Scripture, and you would be right on the money to admonish me.
Thanks for the conversation. I appreciate your zeal for God. 🙂
Warmly,
Molly
Molly,
Funny thing is that I think we agree more than it appears. I think our disagreement comes mostly from definition of terms–what do I *mean* by biblical submission, “headship”, etc. and what do you mean by it?
How’s this…you’re right about the word “kephale”, but it still denotes a kind of “leadership”…but of course not a domineering kind–which is what I’ve been saying all along! Our disagreement, I think, comes from how we define that leadership.
“Kephale is also a military term. It means “one who leads,” but not in the sense of “director.” Kephale did not denote “general,” or “captain,” or someone who orders the troops from a safe distance; quite the opposite, a kephale was one who went before the troops, the leader in the sense of being in the lead, the first one into battle. (Like a Pointman.)” http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/ephesians.htm
I totally agree with this definition! This is the kind of biblical marriage I experience and see lived out all around me. and believe is Scriptural. Which is why I’m constantly pointing out the husband “laying down his life”, or going ahead into battle, or protecting, or…take your word choice.
Ephesians goes on to say…
“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
Being “subject” is easy to a leader who is willing to die for you, and lives his life that way. Perhaps we disagree on what it means to be subject, but there it is anyway.
I simply don’t want to see women get the wrong picture of what they think biblical marriage is and react by becoming a feminist.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Kelly. I think I agree with your idea of “head” quite a bit, the idea of kephale being the first one to rush into battle. From the sound of your posts, it didn’t appear that that’s the idea you were trying to convey about a husband being the leader. Maybe I read you wrong, I see! 🙂
When I was faced with my own situation, and then discovering that there was not one, but two very Biblical options for marriage I found in the Scriptures, I chose the one that offered Life instead of destruction.
One was talking about a husband “in charge” of his wife, the other was talking about husbands and wives being a team, two oxen hitched to the same plow, as it were. Both had an equal amount of powerful Scriptures, both theories have some holes or tough spots.
But I did my research…checked my Greek and Hebrew…read, read, studied, studied. Both were very valid Scripture-based paradigms. (Okay, actually, there were a few things that really sold me on egalitarianism. The biggest things that tipped the scales were the Gen. 1-3 passage, and then the way that Jesus treated women).
It’s not out of rebellion I picked the latter. The first one offered me nothing. I had given it my all and I was in worse shape than when I’d started. Whereas the second interpretation of Scripture had room for women in a situation like mine. And it helped me begin making a lot healthier decisions for me and for my family.
Btw, I personally think kephale/head means…head. Like, as in, a head on a body.
I think Paul was just using the human body as an analogy to point out oneness…also indicated by his reference to Adam’s love poem. 🙂
(They didn’t believe that the head ruled over the body when Paul wrote those words, btw. Actually, most thought the guts were the ruling force of the body, hilariously enough, so at least we know for sure that Eph. 5 is decidedly not an analogy for the husband being the brains of the operation–haha).
I have a question. Is it possible, for Paul’s instructions toward wives (wives to submit) to have to do with the fact that they were required by law to be in submission to their husbands?
It may not be what Paul was saying, but then again, it may just be (and if so, hasn’t it been taken waaay out of context by the patriarchy camp?).
I think it’s a very fair and balanced option, in any case—one of those questions we really should ask and then go grapple with in the text.
We know, after all, that husbands are to submit to their wives. At least, we know that believers are all told to submit one to another, and surely that can’t omit husbands, right? 🙂 I personally think that Paul’s words to wives were in the same line as his words to slaves: “submit, because this is the culture you live in, this is the way things work here and we’re not going to rock the boat in any way but in the way of love.”
So I think Paul told wives to submit in compliance with the laws of the land…only, instead of then telling the husbands to lead their wives, as the Roman code did, Paul told the husbands to love the wives and to treat them as they would their own selves. And to treat them as Christ treated the church (which He raised up to rule and reign *with* Him).
If there is any leading-of-wives going on, it’s more the kind of leading that Jesus said His followers would do. Not the lording over kind, but the washing feet kind.
Because I mistakenly viewed the submission of wives as a command for all time, not understanding the context that Paul was speaking in, not understanding how Paul had just described Jesus treating the Church, I lived through years of…stuff I’m still trying to heal up from. Where did I get such ideas? Most of the patriarchal marriage books, etc.
Again, I wholly believe in submission. It’s a Christian virtue. This doesn’t come from rebellion. It comes from the sharp pain of knowing that there are women like me reading about how wives are to submit in all things to their husbands. This is a broken fallen world. Marriage advice must include disclaimers for those who are married to a spouse with controlling or abusive tendancies. There are more out there than we might think. 🙁
Thanks, Kelly, for the conversation! I guess what I’m asking, still, though, is what does patriarchy offer for women like me? How do you see patriarchy helping women who have a less than desirable husband? What recourse do they have?
I guess that was another one of my big questions. If a paradigm doesn’t fit the misfits, the broken ones, the have-nots, can it really be God’s paradigm? He’s the lover of the broken ones, the humbled, the imperfect, He’s the one who gives grace to them.
If I had to put my finger on it, I would say that Patriarchy did not offer grace to me. It chewed me up, spit me out, and then, oddly enough, all my former patriarchy friends spent lots of time telling me how rebellious/sinful/decieved I was for leaving it (tattered, torn, and barely breathing). It was all very strange, now that I think about it.
Warmly,
Molly
Molly,
I think it’s interesting that the same books and info you read that brought you such “brokenness”, are the same books and info that other women and myself read who bring us life. I was broken before, and now am whole.
You’ve mentioned your definition of “patriarchy” as “lording it over”. That’s not my definition, nor is it of many others. (Nor is it what Doug Phillips teaches…I’ve listened closely and know his wife!)
We both agree that marital headship involves mutual submission, but you are very uncomfortable with the idea of anyone being ultimately responsible. Responsibility is more how I see my husband’s role than “in charge”, since so many don’t like that term.
I don’t see the Bible offering two “options” for marriage, one for those in healthy marriages, and another for those who find themselves struggling.
I don’t see a biblical paradigm that is broken, or culturally irrevelavant. I’m sure if I set out to dissect the Scriptures, desperately wanting it to be untrue, I could make it work.
But taking the Bible for what it is, with all the many references to “woman being made for the man”, not vice versa, and a wife being reverent and subject, etc., I will not adopt the world’s model of egalitarianism.
Biblical marriage works where both spouses understand the model. It does not work if they don’t. Just like a parent/child relationship suffers if the parent has a perverted view of his role…just like any other relationship suffers when we don’t abide by what God has lovingly laid out in Scripture.
So, since what you call patriarchy is not what I call it, and since we’ve had opposite experiences, I think it ends here.
To answer your question–what of the women who are in abusive relationships…I don’t know. I truly don’t. The answer is never to redefine Scripture though. Peter gave some specific advice about “winning him without a word”, and he was clear then,too, that she was to maintain a meek and quiet spirit.
God’s Word is always the answer…but the answer may not always be what we think it is.
Kelly,
A big congratulations on your baby. 🙂 And thanks for engaging in a conversation.
I realize we don’t see things the same way. A few thoughts come to mind after reading your response. I’ll try to be brief…though I’m not very good at that. 🙂
I feel that you wrongly assume that I left the Scriptures when things got hard. I didn’t leave the truth or the Scriptures, not at all: my circumstances forced me to take a much harder look at some assumptions I was making about the Bible.
It’s sort of like if you are making bread and it keeps failing. You take another look at the recipe and try and figure out what you read wrong, and you go at it again. The same was true for me. I had a lot of assumptions about what the Scriptures meant. But my “bread”, so to speak, was coming out in hard rocks, and making my family terribly ill. So I took a much closer look at the recipe and discovered what I’d been doing all wrong. The bread started coming out a lot better, and my family became a lot healthier.
So when someone comes along and says to do it the rock way, I know that I know that I know that it might work in their oven, but it’s a bad deal in my oven. They can go on and on about how it’s good, but my experience is going to make it awfully hard for me to listen to them. I like watching my brood run around with a healthy glow in their eyes—I’m not going back to rock bread, no way!
On following the clear message of the Scriptures, you said you feel that a husband has ultimate responsibility before God. I guess I have to add my question, then: Where does the Bible say that?
It’s not anywhere in the text. There is not one verse that says that a husband will stand before God and answer for his wife. (I’ve looked! lol). This is an extra-biblical teaching. I completely believed it…but it’s not in there. It’s an interpretation. That means it might be a right interpretation or it might not be, but no one is allowed to chide another for not believing it. Because it’s not actually written in the Bible at all, you know?
Another thought I had— I may be totally wrong, so correct me if I am—-but have you ever looked at the Christian egalitarian argument in depth at all? When you called it worldly, I was sort of surprised (because it’s radically not what the world advocates, any more than the Sermon on the Mount is). I am guessing, and again may be wrong here, that you’ve never thoroughly examined the Biblical egalitarian argument. It’s seriously not what the patriarchy books say it is. If you can image the way that you feel the world misrepresents patriarchy…? It’s frustrating, isn’t it? Well, the egalitarians are frustrated at the way they are misrepresented by complementarians/patriarchy people!
My last thought is, I don’t know…painful, I guess…I am very sad. I don’t know what other emotion would be appropriate. Maybe I read your last comment wrong, but sounds like your answer for a woman like me would have been to encourage me to continue being abused (since there was never any abject sin being commanded of me, just a world full of hyper-control, misogyny and passive-aggressive anger).
It stunned me when I was told (by the leader of a large facility specializing in mental illness) that my behavior (when I was following the advice of the patriarchy books, obeying him in all things, and doing it sweetly) was the *worst* possible thing I could have done for the situation. They explained that’s partly why he got worse and worse…his behavior was not being firmly stopped. He controlled me, I meekly and graciously obeyed, he learned that controlling me was a good thing, and so he got one step worse, and so the cycle went. Sort of like the opposite of what we do to train our kids, you know? By my behavior, which was obedient and cheerful and respectful (he agrees with that), I essentially fed a monster.
So, again, and this is just me, it seems like patriarchy is only for the perfect people. It leaves out any one with a less than noble husband…and, if studies are accurate, that would be quite a few families. 🙁 For the broken ones, it will never work, and if they try it, it will only cause more parts to be broken.
Can anyone empathize with the broken? Who will stand up and fight for them? Think of the children in these homes. They get to watch Daddy demeaning Mommy, Daddy disrespecting Mommy, Daddy struggling every time Mommy speaks to him in a voice that isn’t carefully child-like and overtly respectful…they watch this over and over and over again, how many times? What are they learning? The dysfunction is spreading, growing, being given ample room to spread it’s roots. And what is happening to the mother? She might have been strong once, now becoming a woman who slowly stops believing she is worth respecting at all.
My dear friend who is a respected leader in our community, in the courts often because of his legal profession, a lover of Jesus and a man who opens his home to untold people in need of food, shelter, and love, told me that he’s seen countless numbers of women who have literally lost their sanity after years and years of abuse.
He gets viscerally angry when he hears anyone preaching patriarchal doctrine. He sees what happens to the families who aren’t blessed with a mature, wise, and loving man who will treat his wife as a full adult. And let’s face it. These are the families that the patriarchy movement doesn’t seem to want to deal with, doesn’t want to hear about, just wants to go away. The pretty pictures in the catalog are what we want, not the stuff of brokenness, not the stuff of real honest complex pain.
Who is going to stand with the hurting, not afraid of the complexity? Who is going to stand up for these broken families? If patriarchy is God’s way, how is it that God’s way leaves these people out, leaves them worse off than they were before they tried it? Can this truly be God’s way, when it treats the broken ones so?
These are just my rambling thoughts, but they are very much from a heart that wants to see God made known to the world. I understand, Kelly, you speak from a heart that wants to honor and obey God and for that heart I am thankful. I honor you for your zeal. Thank you for letting me have some space to share my concerns with you. And again, praise the Lord for the little treasure in your womb! 🙂
Warmly,
Molly
Molly,
“So, again, and this is just me, it seems like patriarchy is only for the perfect people.”
If this were true, patriarchy is for no one. There would be no healthy families.
If you feel that “changing the recipe” was a good thing, then no one is going to convince you otherwise.
But remember that biblical submission is NOT what you’ve described in most families. And we are not married to perfect men, just men who take the simple truth of Scripture and desire to be like Christ.
I would certainly hate to see a man twist the teaching of headship into something he uses for abuse.
But I also hate to see the damage being done in reaction to these unfortunate cases. I think the authority of Scripture is being questioned and that’s a very dangerous and slippery slope.
I have, btw, studied the egalitarian model quite thoroughly and find it wanting, Scripturally and practically speaking.
Having said that, you would probably call my marriage an egalitarian one “by design” if you saw it. We “walk together as heirs in the grace of life”. My husband asks my opinion (and really wants it) on almost everything. And if/when I disagree with him, I tell him. All that said, one of my weakest areas is reverencing my husband. I wish I weren’t always so quick to *tell*. It’s my fault, though. I’ve been rebllious my whole life *sigh*
i am married to a man who has struggled with so many sins in his life. i knowingly married a broken man…lust…and i guess he knowingly married a broken woman. after our first child was born, we both agreed to start going to church again but i became more involved than he did. and my zeal for the word kind of drove a wedge in us. it has been an amazing journey the past 9 years, 4 kids, 1 on the way, with our share of ups & downs and a big shake up 2 years ago when we almost gave up. the Lord led me to Ephesians. i submitted to my husband completely for the first time ever. i poured out my heart to him in this in the middle of one of the most damaging fights we have ever had. for God to work in his life and make the changes he desired in him, i had to be a 1 peter 3 wife and basically shut up. he couldn't hear God with me trying to convince him all the time of this or that. i submitted even though i was right (lol). it(through Christ) changed our lives. it changed my husbands life, he saw that i was no longer paying lip service in my walk with Christ, he literally saw God perform a miracle in my life and it changed us. God changed our family tree…he broke me to make me whole. he broke us to make us whole. i would never go back to the way things were. i don't have any answers about Molly's situation,i am very new on my journey here and i don't feel qualified to make a comment about that except to say i know it's real and i know it's painful (praying for you). i am posting my experience because it's kind of the opposite of molly, i was the one who basically wore the pants in the family(own my own business before we met, 5 years older, my infinite wisdom and insight on life ~laughs hysterically~)and for someone like me to dive head first into biblical womanhood has been amazing for our family and at the same time very puzzling for our extended family and friends who know me so well. I could NEVER have done this without the Holy Spirit praying for me and guiding me and i have to die to my flesh EVERY SINGLE DAY. my mom (who i learned all the above mentioned behavior from -but love dearly)has looked at me like i was a 3 headed sea monster at times. but she sees the change in all of us and i know she is encouraged by it and has little by little let go of some of her "control" with my dad. sorry for the long post..i don't know what's gotten into me and i know i'm not the most articulate person in the world i hope you get my meaning here.
molly God bless you, my heart breaks for you, but knowing you have true freedom in Christ is encouraging, no matter what the "world" gives you. "in this world you WILL have troubles, take heart for I have conquered the world".
again sorry for long rambling post …i am for the most part a goodin.
thanks kelly for your encouragement
kristi c
It has been very eye-opening for me to read, and linger on the words of this recent subject.
I really feel the description of Molly’s experience moreso mirrors my own, rather than Kristi’s (the latest poster, Kristi)or Kelly’s. I am by nature fiercely submissive…
I am wondering if those of us like Molly and myself arent necessarily out of intention, or exasperation, ‘changing the recipe’, but moreso looking at our situations from a slightly different angle….and not desiring to completely alter or change, or ‘water down’ truth, but while seeking truth, wondering if there is room for the truth of our lives, to fit into, the bigger truth.
I really believe a huge reason my spouse has been able to keep dabbling back into his addiction…is that i was such a ‘helpful’ and obedient wife. I did everything I could to help him, but to the point of my own destruction. i found out early on that people didnt want to keep hearing of our ‘failure’. In the beginning, many tried to help, many prayed, we got into discipleship classes, bible studies, etc. Often i felt misunderstood as the help offered, i.e. more prayer, being even more quiet, being even more helpful and dedicated to my husband…..only left me enabling him, and only left him still trodding down his path….sometimes I think without fear, because ultimately I wasnt going to do anything extreme, or ‘permanent’, after all, I was trying to be the model wife. Stick by my man, no matter what.
While I TOTALLY understand Kelly where you are coming from when you say that you would tell the abused woman “I am really sorry”, and “I would hope her church and family would acome to her aid”…unfortunaterly, in my experience, and the many Ive spoken to or whose lives I have been involved in, this is hardly true.
Reason #1 would be, people who act in a dysfunctional manner, typically have arrived there from dysfunctional families. My parents, and sisters, are actually not aware of their dysfunction, and call ME for help. They are in no mental, emotional, or physical position to help me right now. If I shared the details of their lives, it would certainly be comparable to a day in the life of the latest sopa opera. My in-laws, grappling with their own addictions, blame ME for not allowing my husband to live with myself and the children. They have yelled at me, accused me of adultery, gossipped about me to family and friends, and stopped giving me birthday presents, etc. Once they gave me $200 when my husband first left (he spent two days in jail). They then proceeded to allow him to live in their home for the last 2 years, and he has not continued to be clean. ????
Reason #2. The church. Do you know my husband went to an accountability bible study, where he confessed slipping up 3 times, and nothing was done? I eventually asked about this…the pastor claims that they felt compassion, and ddint know what to do, because my husband ‘seemed’ sorry and was crying. No one ever contacted me to see how the children and I were doing. WE also went to a cunselor at that time…a christian running a ‘pastoral’ (not biblical) type of counseling…..and he eventually did drop my husband as a client. Interestingly, my husband wanted to leave that counselor months before, claiming he wasnt ‘handling things biblically’, etc. i NOW know this was an excuse. My husband always finds it ‘convenient’ to get out of any church, bible study, or addiction group where people really hold him accountable. This may be the reason why he is STILL attending the forementioned church. His new counselor told me that his using drugs would be a ‘deal breaker’. My husband recently confessed to myself and the counselor, that he was lying the whole time we have been counseling….he was using (something I always intuitively thought)the entire duration. Then he joined another accountability group, and told me 3 weeks later he used 3 more times. So far, the counselor has done nothing….but my husband is being praised for ‘being honest’. On top of all this, I was invited to likewise receive free counseling, as I am the wife of a man who attends this church (I quit going there when I realized they were only enabling him, which only furthered people thinking it must be my fault, after all, see how rebellious I am?). A few months ago my counseling priviledges were revoked, because it was not in the budget. Two weeks later, paying for my own counseling, I see the parlor has an entire new living room set, and the construction of the library is now underway. Not trying to judge.I know churches must hold to a ‘budget’, or there would be chaos, but hopefully you all get my point here. I see this in churches all the time…I DO NOT think my sitation is unique, in fact, I know its not. Many women and men I have spoken too have such similar stories. The problem is oftentimes, I am discovering, that the elders and pastor know if *they* hold a brother THAT accountable, they themselves will be expected to do this for *themselves* and *others*. And after all, how many people do you know that truly want to be held accountable to that degree of standard? I do not know what church you go to Kelly, or what families you spend much time with, but I do not see so much tranquility in families, and much willingness. Yes, indeed. I am fortunate to know a few families, two of which I am good friends with, who have decent marriages…sure they have issues, but they seem to manuever through them, and not get super-stuck…but yes they still have their ups-and-downs. Other than that, when I speak to women, one-on-one, I find many are dealing with much worse degrees of either rooted addictions, abuses (even just yelling, or the husband working too much, not doing things with the children, etc)or neglect. And they dont speak out, because they have learned from experience….the blame will be placed on them ultimately. It has to, or else the whole church is now accountable to a NEW standard, one that many do not want to subscribe to.
It hurts when no one knows what to do……because it feels like we are left out to dry. Luckily, I do have friends that are there for me to talk with, but I did ultimately go to twelve step groups for that, because the advice and words I heard from the church were only contaminating myself, and the marriage worse. They had good intention, to help….but IMO when they dont really *know* what to do, then just say that. Dont take people on a rabbit trail…esp one where when the grueling task of holding people accountable gets to be too much, too messy, and too complicated. This is the reality, daily, of what many of us face. So, like I was saying…i began attending twelve step and have found understanding, compassion, and have seen others model for me how they too were exasperated, but found new ways to deal with these sorts of troubles with addictive families. There are other professed Christians who attend, and they are the ones I am closest with, but I do not rule out the growth of others, either. I now see that HEALTHY doesnt=Christian, and UNHEALTHY doesnt=NONchristian; there are dysfucntional christians as well as functional unbelievers, and at this point in the game, I am not willing to go back to a church that looks at these difficult situation with half opened eyes.
I agree with Molly that when things are somewhat ideal, like a husband that is pretty functional, and treats his wife like a queen, the biblical model fits a certain mold. But where do the rest of us fit, who dont ‘make’ the mold, but just because circumstance, or Gods calling make us ‘appear’ that way. I see what you are saying Kelly about not changing truth….and NOW i see more clearly at what you were getting at the whole time. But the way I received it is going to be different as I will always tend to compare it to *my* reality, and *my* situation. And when I know some things wont fit….like homeschooling, having another baby….and that the pressure to even think about doing those things mental deteriorate me-what am I to do? I am thinking perhaps itisnt truth we disagree with so much, it is application of that truth, in differing situations. In my situation, i clearly had to speak up, say NO, put my kids in school, go on antidepressants, and call the cops on my husband (something which now makes me appear ‘evil’ to all the christian ‘experts’, SIGH).
I also agree the multitude of people dealing with this sort of thing are much larger than many would think. Often I find also wives are in denial about the condition of their marriage. I know I really was.
Thanks for listening.
AM,
One thing is for sure…I am no counselor and do not have all the answers for you, though I feel deeply for any woman who is dealing with abusive situations.
But I hope and pray that we’re not losing something very important here…
Molly and others have referred to a “system”, a “paradigm”, a “camp” that didn’t work for them, and only works for “perfect” or healthy families.
That’s a lie. When God inspired the Bible he wrote it for a bunch of rebellious, sinful, fallen, broken people. There were and have never been perfect people or families.
It is heresy to say “that doesn’t work for our family because we have problems”. EVERY family has problems!!!
I can’t apologize for being downright angry at those who point to a specific ministry and say “the paradigm they’re teaching makes some men mean.”
(AM, I’m not accusing you here, but Molly and others have specifically referenced Vision Forum over and over for being “the culprit”.)
When a ministry teaches something straight from the Word of God, and a few men abuse that, it is not the teaching, the Word, or the ministry that should be blamed. Period. That’s a cowardly way out.
There is no place for an abusive man in a marriage. I know personally that Doug Phillips has specifically instructed churches that they are responsible for disciplining abusive men and protecting the women and children involved. That is the heart of their ministry, and I’ve seen it.
When you mentioned that your church or Bible study group did not help or respond correctly, I would urge you–leave that church. There are churches out there that understand their responsibility to hold men accountable for loving their families.
An abusive man should be sent packing if he is unrepentant and the wife has taken the proper recourse to save her marriage. (Be aware, this may very well involve a time of suffering…sometimes we partake in the suffering with Christ.) Of course we ultimately hope the man will be repentant and the marriage will be restored, but the bottom line is that the Bible is true and right for EVERYONE.
And God doesn’t just leave us out to dry. Redefining truth always leads to a tangled mess with more problems.
Stay the course…find a church that knows how to handle sin. Trust that the Lord’s commands are good and right.
The righteous will be sustained.
P.S.
I read a comment that so squarely sums up this “blaming” a ministry for bad things people do…
When a person murders an abortion doctor in the name of “pro-life”, we don’t label all pro-lifers as hypocrites…we recognize that truth is still truth, but some will always abuse that.
The pro-lifers that are trying to spread truth should not receive the blame for what a few perverted ones do.
Agreed, Kelly. But is it fair for us to question the paradigm presented by Vision Forum, or is Vision Forum infallible?
Is it fair to question whether or not “Biblical” patriarchy is truly Biblical. Or is it outside the pale of allowable questions?
I’m hearing some compassion offered…and I thank you…but I’m also hearing that patriarchy is NOT allowed to be carefully looked at to make sure, along with the Bereans, that “these things be so.”
And as a result, I feel like some valid questions about patriarchy are being side-stepped here. There are some strong concerns.
As I mentioned on the comment thread at AinM, some of patriarchy’s biggest tenants literally violate the Trinitarian doctrines of orthodox Christianity (Nicene, Athanasian, and Second Helvetical). The 2nd Helvetical Creed actually uses the word, “heresy.” That’s the way the word should be used, because the truth about who God is has been violated—that’s true heresy.
Heresy is a BIG word. It should not be used lightly. I mean this respectfully, but I don’t appreciate the way you just used it in your comment: someone who doesn’t think the Bible supports patriarchy is *not* a heretic. Heresy has to do with one’s belief in who God is and what He has done for us on the Cross, not with side doctrines.
Point being, a heretic has left the faith. Someone who follows Christ but doesn’t believe the Bible supports patriarchy has not left the faith.
But, all that said, I do appreciate your response telling women in abusive situations to get out. Good for you.
((hugs))
Molly
Kelly,
On the blaming comment, this is something I see the patriarchy camp doing frequently and freely. Feminism is blamed for all number of sins (lumping all feminism together, the ones who fought for women to be educated, alongside the ones who want to shoot all men). All feminists are bad and feminism is the ultimate sin (femisism caused the first sin, no less). This lumps the people fighting for the Afghan women to not have to wear burquas with the sin of Adam and Eve! And it’s done ALL the time.
“Biblical” patriarchy teachings have been responsible for making abused women MORE abused. That’s just a fact. I’m proof, authentically me is proof, and there’s plenty more where we came from.
Now, it may be true that patriarchy is God’s design, and we are just products of a good thing used in a bad way. And there certainly are many good people who also subscribe to patriarchal beliefs.
But (here’s where I feel like a big point is being missed) asking questions about patriarchy is valid and fair, and should not be confused with lumping everyone in a box and saying everyone in patriarchy is bad.
The Scriptures encourage us to check, to dig for facts, to not just accept someone’s interpretation for the “truth.” But I’m hearing that it’s not okay to ask questions.
Is this a fair assessment, or am I missing something?
Molly,
“But is it fair for us to question the paradigm presented by Vision Forum, or is Vision Forum infallible?”
It is fair to question whether anyone upholds a Scriptural view of a subject. VF hasn’t developed their own “paradigm” as you make it sound. They are teaching straight from Scripture, and some feel comfortable deciding there is no black and white there. (“Submission for you means something different for me.”) I don’t think God ever intended His Word to be so complicated we have to dissect it into shreds.
I’ve never heard VF teach anything that is extra biblical.
They teach from the Bible…perhaps it would help me for you to define what it is you think they teach…what it is you even call “patriarchy”.
VF teaches that men are to honor women and children (“women and children first”), that men are called to represent Christ and the church, by laying down his life for her. That children are to see their parents honor one another, and the father acting as a protector as he leads his family toward God. He is the head of his home just as Christ is head of the church (whether your definition is “leader” or represents a bodily head, there is no difference in his treatment of his position).
They teach about the hope for the next generation as fathers turn their hearts toward their children and as mothers embrace the task of raising up children for the glory of God.
All this, even in broken, sinful families–our families!
If you fault them, you must point to their faulty teaching…point blank.
I define heresy as any teaching that denies the truth of Scripture, or teaches something that opposes it.
I think it is heretical to suggest that what God plainly teaches from His Word “doesn’t work for some people”. There are subjects with room for disagreement (if your weaker brother doesn’t eat meat served to idols, fine.) But there are clear teachings that must be taught as such and once we enter into redefinition, the whole Bible loses its authority.
I think much of the post-modern teaching is heretical. I see Satan working mightly in the church to confuse, deceive and turn people away from the truth, and I feel compelled to fight for it.
Thanks for the offer of further conversation, Kelly. I feel like you can’t or don’t hear me in these discussions we have. I will take a guess and say that you may feel the same way? I’m not sure.
It’s not so much that you don’t agree with me. I don’t mind that at all. It’s that I never actually feel like you’ve stopped to *hear* me. If I’ve made you feel the same way, I deeply apologize.
On Vision Forum and their teachings regarding patriarchy, it sounds like you are pretty convinced that they are without error. I don’t really know what to say to that. I don’t think there’s really anything to say at all.
I wish you all the best, Kelly. May you see Him brighter and brighter until the full day dawns,
Molly
I haven’t made the decision to leave the patriarchal movement, because I do feel it is God’s perfect plan. But I have felt what Molly feels and I can’t judge her for leaving.
I don’t think anyone should judge until they have been in an emotionally abusive home. You can’t know what it is like to stand paralyzed, unable to move because you are so terrified that you will do the wrong thing. You can’t know what it is like for you to wish he would hit you rather than continue belittling you, because then you could leave. You can’t know what it feels like to walk around day after day feeling like more of nothing every day.
I have felt literally crushed by control and expectation. I read Molly’s story and felt most in touch when I read this:
“…Until one day I couldn’t do it anymore. It was like I couldn’t move, walk, or speak… Actually, I just wanted to sink into the floor of my kitchen and die and it felt like that’s exactly what was happening. It caught me horribly by surprise, especially as I had faked being happy for so long, but it was intense inner pain to such a degree that I could NOT ignore it. My legs literally stopped working and I crumbled,both inside and out.”
I know exactly what she is talking about because I just crumbled too. I made the decision to stand up for myself and demand that he get help. Does that make me a horrible person? Should I have just kept taking it and taking it?
I get to decide nothing. Not even what underwear to wear, what clothes to wear, where anything goes in the house, how the kids dress, how they learn, what we eat, what we buy, how I cook, how I clean. I could go on and on. And I have to do everything he tells me exactly the way he tells me to do it. If I do something wrong even accidentally, he becomes furious with me, because there is no such thing as an accident, just being careless- which is just as bad as doing it on purpose. After controlling every movement I make, he yells at me that I am nothing but another child he has to take care of.
I do believe that marriage is supposed to be a man leading his family in love, with a wife submitting in love. Maybe God does intend for women to submit to abuse, but I know that I am not that strong. I have said no more and we are getting help. Thank God he is willing to get help.
I likened my confrontation with my husband to this:
If you are standing in a fire and someone tells you that if you jump out you will go to hell and your children will be damaged, you will still jump out. Because sometimes your pain is so great that you can’t see long term. I told my husband that we get help or I have to leave. Did I sin? Maybe, but I thought I would die (and I mean, literally die) if I didn’t make the abuse stop.
You want to know the irony. I don’t read Molly’s blog. I read yours. Everyday, along with dozens of other submissive wives. Because I want what you have, even though it seems impossible right now.
I just don’t want you to discount what she says because she has decided you are wrong. I think you are right, but I just wish there were some advice for those of us with less than perfect marriages.
m smith,
(((hugs)))
Oh, you are doing so good! Standing up to abuse is real love, the tough kind of love. It’s not loving to keep on sweetly accepting abuse—the correct word for that is “enabling.” It helps no one.
((((big squeeze))))
msmith,
I feel so deeply for you–and any woman who has to undergo this kind of treatment..this is NOT biblical patriarchy!!! Jesus brought freedom to the oppressed, he did not bring oppression!
When you say…”If you are standing in a fire and someone tells you that if you jump out you will go to hell”…who is telling you there is no recourse? Who is saying just “grin and bear it”?
This is where I want to be clear…I don’t think anyone who believes in the correct interpretation of Scripture regarding marriage believes that a woman is to suffer abuse with her husband unchecked.
I urge you to find a church that will come to your defense and stand as your advocate. I don’t think leaving a spouse is NEVER acceptable, but I would certainly think it should be a last resort, when an abusive husband is unwilling to repent after every recourse has been taken.
But there is help! I don’t know how easy it is to find, but you MUST find a church who practices biblical discipline and stands in defense of abused women.
What needs to be clear though, is that Scripture isn’t in error when it lays out the pattern for submission and godly authority. (I know you haven’t said this, but others are.) When men are sinful, it doesn’t solve the problem to redefine the Word, or to assume the Word is wrong. It is the abuse that is wrong…that needs to be dealt with.
I pray you will be able to find someone to help guide your husband to a clear understanding of his sacrificial love for you and your children…I truly do. I am so sorry that you are struggling in this way.
Just posting a late note here. Dramatic escapes from violence and coercion are not peculiar to the LDS. I left when my husband was out, got an apt. that he doesn’t know about and got the police to give him a formal warning not to contact me. What a great way to end a marriage influenced by a soft complementarian church. Women who are under authority are vulnerable to enslavement. Submitting to the tiniest drop of abuse causes it to grow, and male headship feeds male entitlement.
Goodbye to 27 years under the yoke of slavery. Anyone who teaches male authority needs to have an answer for the mess of my life and others like me. My pastor did not.