416
Important message from Kim, a Canadian reader:
“Listen up, Americans! Don’t let it [socialized health care] happen in your country! The news about our socialized medical establishment never changes – hospitals too far in debt to keep services or proper staffing available. Make it a business between doctors and patients – the cost and services will be much more competitive and much more attentive to the patient! (BTW – I not just a Canadian, I’m a Canadian nurse)”
51 comments
Haven’t you heard about the Obama health plan? There is one for Congress, and one for the chumps, AKA, the American people. Check out the Kennedy-Dodd plan which exempts members of congress, and federal employees and their families.
I guess the adage “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander,” doesn’t apply when it comes to health care.
Cathy
ANIMAL FARM!!!! “some are MORE equal than others” do they even read this book in public schools anymore?
Why are so many Christians against socialized health care? If you see someone die because they didn’t have proper healthcare, then we might just change our minds. I see a ridiculous amount of people suffering and unable to get help (or loading up 100,000’s in debt) in America and in Peru because they are very, very ill and uninsured. Often times uneducated and impoverished people (most of which are born into those circumstances) do not have and will never have the opportunity to have a job that allows health insurance. Maybe a socialized plan is not perfect, but it is not evil either. Why should only the “haves” be affored the ability to have healthcare and the “have-nots” just have to suffer? I find it very, very interesting that most middle-class, insured Americans are against a socialized health-care plan. I truly do not understand why we would not want EVERYONE to be able to get the help they need at an affordable (not what is going on now) rate. I am a Christian and I am strongly for socialized healthcare! I do not want to see anymore sick people suffer at the hands of “lack of insurance.” I see it daily with my ailing mother, as well as here in Peru with the 100’s of impoverished people we work with in the “slums.”
Not wanting to debate, but truly NOT understanding why so many Christians are against seeing everyone have equal coverage – even if the cost (taxes) is higher? I am willing to pay more taxes for the benefit of others.
Jessica in Peru
Jessica,
Have you researched what has happened to the health care in countries that switched to socialized? The U.S. has amazing health care right now (some states are better than others, but still), and in the long run, even more people would die…look at the quote from the Canadian nurse above. I don’t like that people who can’t afford it die, either. But think about this. What’s next? Is the government going to force the citezens through taxes to buy food for those who can’t afford it? Because that’s another necessity…people die from hunger. I don’t think it would ever come to that in the U.S. (but you never know these days!), because we have tons organizations where you can *VOLUNTARILY* give food to help those in need. If the government would stop taking money from people for “forced charity,” more people would be able to afford to give as they feel led. If we’re taxed to the point of just being able to afford the basics ourselves, what does that do for our ability to give extra, or even for the economy? There are many other things people die of besides lack of health care. Introducing socialized health care is a slippery slope.
Jessica,
***I truly do not understand why we would not want EVERYONE to be able to get the help they need at an affordable (not what is going on now) rate.***
We DO want everyone to be able to get the help they need! You must understand it’s not about “not wanting the uninsured to get help”…it’s about the fact that socialized health care simply won’t work, will put everyone in a worse condition, and ultimately people who were able to be cared for will be turned away because of the overload and the mess.
I’m curious, but did you listen to Ron Paul’s explanation? Have you read the countless information about other countries WITH socialized health care who are in a disastrous mess, with more people than EVER being denied health care?
Do you want to go for cancer treatment and they tell you you’ll have to be put on a w-year waiting list, or worse yet, “you’re too sick to spend money on, so step aside”?
Socialized healthcare only sounds good in THEORY. That’s what we’ve got to get our brains around. There ARE other answers to reduce medical costs for everyone. But if it doesn’t work, and it’s been PROVEN not to work, my question is, how could anyone possibly still be supporting it?
“oops…”3-year waiting list”
Also I wanted to point out, it’s not only the people who cannot afford insurance that would be affected by the increased tax. Our family is in a season right now where my husband is working his tail off just to make ends meet for our family. If my giving away his hard-earned money to help someone in need means my children go hungry, would it be very responsible for me to do so? Would it make it more right for the government to take that money from him by force through taxes to help someone in need? My husband is so tired, but his philosophy is “Do what you gotta do.” I agree, there are some people out there who truly cannot work. But in America at least, unfortunately, there are many people who are just plain lazy and take advantage of the system. If we have socialized health care, it would be the same. A lot of our tax dollars would be wasted on people who don’t really truly need them. I would rather take that money and put it somewhere *myself* where I can see that it is truly needed. If we’re struggling to make ends meet and the government goes and takes more and more money for things it should NOT be taxing for, I have no desire, let alone ability, to do that. Meanwhile, people who just plain don’t want to go to work get to laze around, while my husband works himself to death to make ends meet, and then when he or one of us gets sick, we’re not even guaranteed the quality health care we once had.
Lol socialized health care does NOT save lives. It’s only people that haven’t lived in a socialized system that would think that it does. Years ago, when I was a teenager, I was having problems with my heart. I was living in a country with socialized health care. My doctor said that it was urgent to find out what was going on. I was put on a waiting list under “URGENT” and five years later had STILL not had an initial appointment.
If I wanted to get decent health care right away, I had to private. And private required expensive insurance, and was expensive. But you deal with it.
“The U.S. has amazing health care right now”
I’m sorry, but have you been living under a rock? Which statistics make you feel like American health care is “amazing”? Is it the number of people filing for bankruptcy due to medical bills? Is it the number of people without any insurance? Is the average wait time in an ER? Is it the large debt doctor comes out of medical school with?
Without a doubt people in the UK and Candia would rather have their system then ours. This one nurse doesn’t represent the entire country.
*Canada
Ashley,
I think the “under the rock” comment could be turned back and asked of those who support socialized health care…we’re not “speculating” about whether it would work…the system has been tried and FAILS every time! It creates a much bigger mess than we already have.
It is not the answer…we need a solution, yes, but socialism is not it and like Lisa said, is a VERY slippery slope (entailing a lot more than just “everyone get free insurance”)…
just one instance, and people don’t believe this but hang on to your hats if it comes–when the government pays for your care, they hold the power to tell you what you can and can’t receive, or what they deem important, etc. Forced sterilization and abortion? Yes, it could happen here among denial for treatment deemed “too serious”, etc. BESIDES the waiting lists, poor conditions, doctors with less incentive to practice medicine…the list goes on.
You think people are suffering from not getting the medical attention they need now? Oh it will get much worse…remember, it’s been tried and found wanting!
Just because a system sounds good doesn’t mean it is–please do the research.
It appears that Jessica and Ashley couldn’t even be bothered to listen to the posting/read the comments from which this posted quote was taken. We should not be surprised that they have not bothered to do any real research.
We already have a government run health care system in this country. The Indian Health Service, it is pretty awful that gives those covered no choice. I just recently in the last few weeks saw an article on this system and for all my searching cannot find it now. One of the things that stuck out to me was that in many Indian communities there is the saying “Don’t get sick after June, b/c the money has already run out”. It also stated that most Native Americans know not to go to clinics to be seen unless they are truly dying or loosing a limb b/c you are not given proper care. I just have to wonder if that is why most Native Americans have a shorter life expectancy than the rest of us. I would have to say no thanks to that kind of government run health care, give me freedom of choice any day.
Ashley,
I’m not saying the *system* we have is the greatest. Like Kelly said, it could definitely use some fixing (socialism is a step in the wrong direction, it should be going the other way!). But, as a patient living with MS, in the state I live in, my care is pretty top quality. And no, I’m not living under a rock. Even a little bit of research will show you that the *quality* of our health care in the U.S. far surpasses those in socialized countries. Like Ron Paul said in that video, the more the government gets involved with anything, the more the costs go up. And as Kelly eluded to, when the government gets involved, there are *always* strings attached.
Yes, I, too, would like to see a world where everyone has great health care, but this is not the answer. That being said, my husband works a very high stress job, yes he gets good health insurance for our family. Are you saying that for all his hard work, his family should get low-quality (if any quality) health care because some can’t (or in a lot of cases, won’t)work? Where’s his incentive to work hard if he gets the same thing as the guy that doesn’t have to? That is not where the solution lies. I realize a lot of people work hard and don’t get health insurance. That’s not our fault as individuals, why should we get punished for it? Maybe instead of spending money on health care for all, they should be cutting the smaller businesses a tax break, so that they can afford to offer their employees health insurance. Plus, there are so many programs already in place to help people who cannot afford health insurance.
While I do feel bad for them, there is *always* going to be someone who needs help with the necessities of life. It is not the government’s place to force everyone to help out. Misery shared equally is not the answer…that’s how I look at socialized anything. I would love to try and help people out, and if we could afford it, I would. There are lots of people who *are* voluntarily helping people all the time, and there would be *lots* more if the government would stop taking so much of their paychecks.
The government has monopolized the health care in this country…there is no competition so of course there is no incentive to drop the costs! What we need to do is get government out of health care completely. The competition will drive the costs down and the quality up!
Thought this story I found was interesting:
An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but once had failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, “Okay. We will have an experiment in this class on Socialism.” All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.
After the first test, the grades were averaged, and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset, and the students who studied little were happy. But as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less, and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second test average was a D. No one was happy.
When the third test rolled around, the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name-calling all resulted in hard feelings, and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. All failed to their great surprise, and the professor told them that Socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
Could not be any simpler than that…. tho there are still some that say: “Ours will be different.”
(I made a couple of comments that haven’t shown up yet, so if this comes up first, bear with me)
Also was just thinking. People filing bankruptcy due to medical bills wasn’t a huge issue back before credit and living pay check to pay check was popular. We need to be teaching our kids to save up for these kinds of things. We had to file bankruptcy a while back. You know whose fault it was? OURS! We didn’t save and were poorly managing our money. We didn’t go running to the government asking them to pay our mortgage. We swallowed our pride, took the loss, and started over by working hard. We need to get back to the mentality of “If you can’t afford it, don’t buy it.” People can’t afford to buy things, yet they use credit and accumulate payments to the point they can barely afford those. They stretch themselves to their financial limit, then, when a medical crisis hits, it’s not only a physical and mental/emotional crisis, it’s turned into a financial crisis because they weren’t prepared. I’m not saying all people struggling with medical bills are like that, but I’m willing to bet a good chunk of them are.
Whatever happened to saving for what you need, then saving for what you want? If the government got it’s nose out of health care, people taking advantage of the system would come out of the woodwork and start working out of sheer necessity. Then we would be able to see who is truly in need and focus our generosity (not forced charity) on them.
Cool! I don’t think I have ever been quoted before!
Our health care system in Canada is just the tip of socialized iceberg here. The very basics of the plan is that the government does all your thinking for you. When we accept the ‘free’ service or ‘grant funding’, we are choosing to accept the standard set by the government in anything from education to health care to how we are allowed to raise our children.
Having said all that, it is true that I am not among the majority when I say that our socialized medicine is a mistake – the majority simply believe what the socialist government tells them – but most medical professionals would agree with me!
Here are several points/questions with regard to the comments:
I would love to know the real stats on how many people declare bankruptcy due to medical costs. So often, politicians bandy around “facts” that aren’t facts, then they’re perpetuated by the media and hardly questioned. As an example of that kind of thing, think about Hillary Clinton’s statement that 90% of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the US (President Obama repeated the claim). I barely heard the media make a whimper, and yet, the stats are untrue. That doesn’t seem to matter and it sure doesn’t deter the politicians from continuing to disseminate the allegation. The government’s own statistics don’t support the claim.
My son works in an ER in Orange County, CA, and the amount of people who abuse the system (they’re called “frequent flyers”) is staggering. They show up in the ER complaining of a back ache so they can get pain killers, or they show up to have a place to bunk down for the night. No kidding. BUT, and this is big. They are treated. Now, you might counter that socialized medicine will eradicate that kind of “medicine,” but I submit that I would rather a person have the option of being seen by a doctor, then turning them away.
There is always a wait in the ER regardless of having insurance. That’s just the nature of the beast.
Finally, I’m not sure what being a Christian has to do with not wanting to have socialized medicine. I would offer that there are lots (and lots) of Christians who give of themselves (and their money) to go into third world countries to administer health care. In general, Christians put their money (and time) where their mouths are. Christians and non Christians alike don’t want to lose their health care and become patients of the government. Stereotyping Christians that way, in my view, is a pretty unfair depiction.
Cathy
Dani, you bring up an interesting example. My grandfather actually lived on an native reservaion for about 10 years. Before that he had been a liberal in his ideas about gov’t care of people (welfare). He witnessed miserable failure. Only a small fraction of the money earmarked for each native person ever made it to him/her. The rest was eaten up by buerocrats in their offices mostly before it left Washington. This was in the 40s and 50s.
Since then our polititians have gotten even more inept at money management. We are already trillions of dollars in debt. We will not ever pay that debt back, unless we devalue the currency through inflation like the Germans did after WW II (when it took a wheelbarrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread). Doctors will be paid the equivelent of plumbers and will quit because who needs the stress for so little compensation (this has happening in many former soviet states). Then try to go to the doctor.
We have issues in this country about what constitutes a “right.” I hear people pontificate about how people have a “right” to health care in the same breath as their “right” to a nice vacation and their fav treat (mani? pedi? what’s yer poison?). After all they “deserve” it. I’m sorry, but none of those things are a right unless you paid for it contractually (as in, you pay your doctor for a visit and you get a visit). It can be paid for in barter form if that’s pleasing to those involved, or it can be paid for in gift form as long as it’s voluntary. It’s not a right by God’s standard (the Bible) nor by way of the Constitution (remember that?). Sorry.
Any money forcibly extracted on this account is stealing. An service forced by the gov’t from a med. practitioner is enslavement.
When God wrote “Thou shall not commit adultury” there was no clause “except if your spouse is a really selfish jerk with ‘irreconcileable differences.”
When God wrote “Thou shall not kill” there was no clause “unless that person is really inconvenient (i.e. euthanasia) or unborn.”
When God wrote “Thou shall not steal” there was no clause “except by majority vote.”
We don’t get to pragmatically pick and choose which commandments really count.
And welfare is theft. Make no mistake.
Amen, Lori and Cathy. I also want to add we need to be careful, because I can’t think of a single government program that was put into place that hasn’t stuck around, regardless of whether or not it worked. So, we don’t get to “try it out.” Once it’s put in place, history has shown it will be there forever, even if (and it WILL) it fails miserably. The government doesn’t do “take backs.”
Cathy – some very good points.
“I would offer that there are lots (and lots) of Christians who give of themselves (and their money) to go into third world countries to administer health care. In general, Christians put their money (and time) where their mouths are. ”
There is an excellnt book on the subject filled with the statistics that support your claim.
It’s called Who Really Cares? The Surprising Truth About Compasionate Conservatism Who Gives, Who Doesn’t, and Why It Matters: Arthur C. Brooks
I was just thinking about this today – socialized health care, and I don’t think I would enjoy this.
Medical care should be made affordable not available to “every Tom, Dick, and Harry” on the street. I could envision resources being exhausted very quickly with socialized health care. I mean, think about it. If health care is available for literally everybody, some “bodies” are going to get “left out” regardless if they can afford the care or not.
Also, as other people stated, I don’t want to be “forced” to pay for someone else’s health care, especially for those who “abuse the system” for their own gain.
Not only that, it would not be “made equal for everyone” as some people think. Nothing is ever “equal” in this country or in any other country. We all know that the “people at the top” would get better health care than the regular “rank and file” American’s (that would be us).
This is a bad idea! I think the government needs to keep their hands out of health care crisis!
something like THIS gets an AOK to post?
***It appears that Jessica and Ashley couldn’t even be bothered to listen to the posting/read the comments from which this posted quote was taken. We should not be surprised that they have not bothered to do any real research.***
but others of us have posts that have not gone through, with a lot less sarcasm/bite….mostly for not ‘being relative’ to the discussion.
i dont get it.
The “courtesy” that Lori complained wasnt given to her by some just a few weeks ago….in lieu of ‘quotating’ posts so she could answer more easily……she doesnt give to others by not assuming. Not to mention sarcastic and rude….defensive and antagonistic.
I dont care if this gets posted, this is just plain stupid. And isnt new, either.
I live in a country with national health care. Yes, the government of Japan is in major debt (just like the US), but I don’t see people going without health care just because the system is overlaoded. I am very happy with our general health care. My kids get health care completely free until age 6. We go to our pediatrician a two minute walk away, with no appointment, and go home with any necessary medication within an hour or two (certainly no longer than I have waited at an American doctor’s office, even with an appointment). I also have never heard of anyone here dying because they were not able to get a much needed surgery, for example.
On the other hand, having a child with special needs, I have seen another side of health care here in Japan. We have a severe shortage of speech therapists, and the therapies and help that parents enjoy in the US are often simply not available here, or they are only available until the child starts school. That side of healthcare here leaves much to be desired.
I think that those who are against national insurance sometimes over state the possible difficulties, and ignore the benefits. I also think that those for national healthcare make it sound so easy, and ignore the potential problems and pitfalls — which makes it even more scary. So, anyway, I see both sides, and I am not sure how national healthcare would work in the US, even if it does work pretty well here in Japan. Just my two yen, for what it’s worth!
AM,
LOL…sometimes I feel like I’m in charge of moderating a second-grade classroom full of girls.
And yes, I sometimes do reserve the right to keep a discussion from going into a weird direction, or sometimes I’m just in a different mood! (Gasp…I am human with varying degrees of situations/time restraints, etc. by which I often gauge my decision of the release of comments..).
To be honest, I hardly think saying “this is stupid” earns any right to be taken seriously….*sigh* I get enough badgering to be insulted for my decisions to post or not to post a comment.
Sue,
I think for me, bottom line is that EVEN IF it “worked”, I agree with Lori’s explanation about the reality that it is actually “legalized stealing”. Giving the government more control is never a good thing or a right thing for a people.
Sue said: “My kids get health care completely free until age 6.”
That’s not true, because *some*body is paying for it.
Lisa,
My thoughts exactly.
Nothing is free–except for, of course, salvation. And, being free to us, cost someone HIs life. So, while it is/was free, it isn’t cheap.
Sorry if this is slightly off subject, Kelly. I hope that the “varying degrees of situations/time constraints, etc…” of which you wrote aren’t going to get me canned! YIKES. 🙂
Cathy
Cathy,
lol–funny lady you are.
Not that I have anything extraordinary to interject, but I thought I’d let you know that my doctor (who I worked with for years and know pretty well) actually came here to practice from Canada because he was so sick of not being able to diagnose his patients (ie. ordering an ultrasound on someone’s kidney and having them die during the 6 month waiting period…). The fact that he would move his whole family and start over again with a new practice (and he’s not the only one to do this) should give us pause.
Sue – ” After getting struck by a motorcycle, an elderly Japanese man with head injuries waited in an ambulance as paramedics phoned 14 hospitals, each refusing to treat him. He died 90 minutes later at one facility that finally relented—one of thousands of victims repeatedly turned away in recent years by understaffed and overcrowded hospitals.
Paramedics arrived at the accident scene within minutes after the man on a bicycle collided with a motorcycle in the western city of Itami. But 14 hospitals contacted to provide medical care for the injured 69-year-old all refused to admit him citing a lack of specialists, equipment, beds and staff, according to Mitsuhisa Ikemoto, a fire department official…
In the worst case, a woman in her 70s with a breathing problem was rejected 49 times in Tokyo.
There was also the high-profile death of a pregnant woman in western Nara city in 2006 that prompted the government to establish a panel to look into hospitals turning patients away.
In that incident, the woman was refused admission by 19 hospitals that said they were full and could not treat her. She died eight days later from a brain hemorrhage after falling unconscious during birth.
“[A] string of recent cases in Japan in which patients were denied treatment, underscoring health care woes in a rapidly aging society that faces an acute shortage of doctors and a growing number of elderly patients.
More than 14,000 emergency patients were rejected at least three times by Japanese hospitals before getting treatment in 2007, the latest government survey showed.”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D964V6P00&show_article=1
This is actually an article written to showcase the problems of too-low birthrate (too few people to grow up and become MDs), but that dosen’t account for why there were too few beds even at the hospitals for the sick and wounded.
That is explained by socialized health care buffoonery (yes, I said buffoonery. As in the irresponsibility that comes with people spending money that isn’t theirs that they have been given legal access to.)
AM – I was biting toward Ashley and Jessica. It was hardly warranted given their calm demeanors.
Ashley and Jessica, I apologize for my rude tone.
I ask for quotes not in order “answer more easily” but to ensure that one isn’t being misquoted, taken out of context, or outright slandered/libeled.
That said, I do get defensive about people wanting to take my husband’s and my hard-earned, harder-saved money to redistribute it as *they* see fit – and then not even give any research for their opinion, but a couple sad stories and emotion. Not even bother to reference the opposing evidence offered – what – 2,3 postings ago?
And however you slice the comments I referred to, there was no research cited.
Again, I need to practice “truth with love.” I was out of line.
Kelly, sorry for making you feel like a school-girl’s teacher again!
I have been taken to hospital by Ambulance several times for an asthma attack just to be told to go away because there are no beds available.
I also worked in a hospital. We had to tell the patients that waiting lists were half of what they were, and in Australia, a lot of those waiting lists were 30 years, so it wasn’t that comforting to be told you’d be on the list for 15 years to get treatment.
*grin*
It’s not anyone in particular…just the constant “watch” I’m pressured to be on and reprimanding for publishing one comment or not publishing another–exhausting.
That was to you, Lori.
Socialized health care *might* be fine in some countries if you have an ear infection or a cold or something. But, the evidence is overwhelming in what happens if you get something more serious, like cancer, or other fatal diseases, or if you are “too old to care about.” People are dying waiting for treatment, people that wouldn’t die otherwise if they were able to get seen and treated in a timely manner.
Oh, hey, I thought of another pertinent commandment, for those of you who are Bible-believers (knowing that not all are who visit here).
“Thou shall not covet…anything that is thy neighbor’s.”
As in, their house or their wife or their health care plan or their disposable income. Not “anything that is thy neighbor’s.”
Jessica in Peru,
I may be late in the game responding here. But I wanted to address some of the issues you brought up in your post.
First of all, the idea that people are suffering because they can’t get or afford health care is a strange one. I usually associate that with socialized medicine. In our system here in the US, if someone is in need medically they can visit any hospital and be treated. Sure, they will be sent a bill if they have no insurance, but I ask you, is it better to be given a bill or be denied care under a socialist system? That is what is happening in countries with socialized medicine. It has been tried and it has been found not to work. All it has succeeded in doing is making the wealth gap even bigger. Equally miserable care for the average citizen, while the wealthy can travel to the US to receive the best care or hire their own private doctor. How is that “fair”?
Also, why do people have a problem with paying for essentials? Shelter is essential, yet we don’t advocate “free” housing for everyone, paid for by the tax payer. You must pay rent, a mortgage, or pay cash for a home. You have to pay for food, that is essential. We don’t have food given to everyone on the backs of the tax payer. Why do we expect health care to be any different? Why should that be “given” to us?
I acknowledge that that health insurance needs reform. But the solution that I believe makes the most sense goes in the opposite direction of socialized health care. We don’t have car insurance for gas fill ups or oil changes on our car, it is only for major problems like accidents or thefts. If we treated health insurance the same way, paying out of pocket for wellness visits or the simple cold and sniffle, and saved insurance for major things like accidents or surgery, we could cut costs drastically.
Thats my thought on the matter. I hope we can all do some research on the subject and not just jump on a solution that “sounds” good without proof.
Rachel
And yet we have a higher infant mortality rate and lower life expectancy than Canada.
Steph’s comment just underscores what I wrote earlier, i.e., that the numbers and “facts” are skewed.
Consider how the stats are compiled. In the US, a baby who is severely premature, and who doesn’t live, is labeled an infant death. Other countries label it a fetal death. (Odd since we allow for abortion–an admission that the “fetus” is an “infant,” but I digress.) Additionally, when a baby dies within 24 hours of birth, the US considers it an infant death. Some countries consider it a stillborn birth.
How the stats are compiled makes a difference. There are other facts to consider, as well, but that gives you an idea.
The very politicians who regurgitate this kind of data, are the very ones who will have private care.
Just throwing numbers out there without background and explanation is to warp the facts.
Cathy
Cathy, my thoughts exactly.
Re: infant mortality –
In industrialized nations, “Children’s deaths are most likely the result of injury suffered in traffic accidents, intentional harm, drowning, falling, fire and poisoning.”
– Not lack of ins.
“In the United States, American-Indian, Alaska- Native and African-American children have the highest death rates”
http://www.whale.to/b/deathchild.html
Anyone see a trend there? All three have disproportionate numbers reliant on gov’t aid.
(African Amer. children are disproportionaltly represented in foster care – don’t know about welfare rates in general, but foster care is hardly the best place for a child.
http://www.practicenotes.org/vol6_no2.htm
http://www.blackadministrators.org/statistics_main.cfm )
My point being that gov’t ins has little to do with infant/child mortality.
Re: Life expectancy:
“Heart disease, the leading American cause of death, is more prevalent in the United States than in other countries.
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/07/us/us-is-in-middle-of-33-nations-in-death-rates.html
We are the most obese nation by far in the world. And one of the most sedentary. That accounts not only for death by heart disease, but stroke, diabetes, and many forms of cancer. You can give a guy a free pass to the doctor, but you can’t make him change his lifestyle.
That’s true – I mean, about the American problem with obesity. I just mean to say… regardless of the ‘failure’ of socialized medicine, Canada is no Angola, health-wise.
Joanna, the topic is about socialized health care. Taking care of the poor would surely qualify for another posting.
We should surely have compassion on the poor. YES, it is most beautiful and biblical. But we shouldn’t even need to defend our right to choose where we donate our money, or the right to donate it (as opposed to having it confiscated).
Remember, in the story of the good Samaratin, there was no Roman soldier pointing a sword at the Samaritin saying “gimme your money so I can pay the inkeeper.” Which is what our gov’t does. If you don’t pay those taxes you have some hard-core sanctions imposed on you.
Paul repeatedly talked about giving, and commended those early church congregants who gave *freely of their own hearts*. It was not forcibly excracted from them.
For some wonderful exploration on helping the poor, I highly recommend:
the book Bringing in the Sheaves by Rev. George Grant, and the video
“Charity That Works” with Rev. George Grant and Dr. Gary North.
Both are based on the bilical example of “gleaning” for charity. What’s the “That Works” part? Getting a person/family beyond the *need* for charity – getting them on their own two feet again, so to speak.
Remember too, when talking about what is or is more “Christ centered,” that while Christ took great pity on the suffering, he also railed against theivery and Pharaseeism, where they added rules to the Scripture about what makes for a godly person.
OK, at this poing my posting in response to Joanna has not posted, but I would like to add for the sake of clarity that I do not consider my tithes to the church to be “donations” except in April in the tax forms, where they are defined as such by the gov’t. Their form, their rules.
And Joanna, “as (you are) a fellow Christian,” I respectfully suggest that where you criticize scripture, you counter with a scriptural support for your argument. Just so that we’re on the same page.
I think my last comment came across a bit harsh–I didn’t mean it to. Some of you were quite compassionate in the way you discussed things. I guess I just wanted to see a different starting point in the way you discussed the issue.
Joanna,
I understand what you are saying. However, I don’t think you are understanding what we (who are against socialized health care) are saying. Besides the point that it increases taxes, we are against it because in every country it has been tried it hasn’t worked. The quality of care drops, and the government gets to decide who gets what care. If they think you are not worth a certain treatment because the cost to them is greater than you could be denied treatment. For an example, in Oregon state (which has it’s own state run insurance program for everyone similar to the one being proposed by congress) a woman with cancer received a letter stating that she would no longer be able to receive care for her treatment, it was just too expensive, but if she opted for it, they would be willing to pick up the bill for euthanasia! How could this type of care be considered Christ like?! People hear “healthcare for everyone” and assume the quality of care would not change, but that just isn’t so. It isn’t possible financially for the government no matter how high the taxes go.
We are not against the poor receiving health care. Instead, we would like to see reform outside of government.
In your example, seeing that you had cleft palate at birth, chances are under a socialist health care system you wouldn’t have been given the opportunity to even be born. The government would have decided for your mother. If they are paying the bill, they can decide what you can and can not do medically. Scary thought.
Rachel
Joanna,
Thank you for your senstivity…I think we would all agree with you about the need to emphasize compassion in a biblical sense; by the same token, the socialist approach our government is heading toward is so frustrating and frankly scary if you really understand the slippery slope (it’s so much more than providing some needed care for the poor)…and that is where the passion comes from, I think.
It’s a call for sure though for Christians to start putting their money where their mouth is.
Of course there is a debate about “who” needs help; after reading our devotion this morning where Paul admonishes the church “if a man does not work he shall not eat”, the question must be raised about who deserves charity. Certainly the widows and orphans; problem is, socialized health care would cover only a small fragment of that group while our tax dollars would be funding large amounts of, frankly, “those who won’t work”.
Does that make sense? Thanks for your comment.
Also, it should be noted that socialized health care is NOT charity, which is what I think Christians are called to–the distinction is an important one.
I didn’t want to engage any more on this issue as apparently my posting was misunderstood. My point wasn’t socialized vs. non-socialized medicine, just that the system we have *is* terribly broken, and that the people who realize that fully are the ones who (a) don’t have a support system, (b) don’t have insurance, and possibly (c) have poor health. The way some commenters spoke, it made me feel like they had never been in that place, and it really does change your perspective on the matter.
Lori, I wasn’t criticizing scripture. I was rather taken aback that what’s you thought, but perhaps that was because of the way I worded my comment. I spoke passionately having just been with my neighbor who got the bad news about her possible paralysis. I just felt that coveting wasn’t what I had seen in those people who suffered because there wasn’t a better system in place. I saw sorrow, grief, pain, and a probable shortened lifespan (and there are lots of scriptures about the groaning of creation).
I might have misunderstood, and maybe you were concerned about being careful not to covet health insurance yourself, Lori, and of course I can’t speak to what’s in your own heart–that’s a different situation than what I was speaking to. And we do need to guard our hearts. But I don’t think that to want health insurance if you don’t have it means necessarily that you are coveting.
My neighbors I mentioned–they’re not lazy. She wants to work, but can’t because of her disability that can’t be addressed at the moment (it’s a vicious cycle!), and her two adult boys are working multiple minimum wage jobs just to cover medical expenses and put food on the table. Each time they save enough even to get a single clunker car for the family, their savings gets wiped out by something. A $3,000 one night (!) emergency stay in the hospital. And they have to choose between a car and food on the table. Now they have one, but can’t afford brakes for it. They’re handicapped by the medical system we have in place–and preventative medicine would be much less expensive than what I see happening in their family now. Now, I wasn’t even arguing for socialized medicine, I was just commenting that when we address issues like these, we need to consider people like those who will be deeply affected by the decisions that are made.
Poor doesn’t equal undeserving. And further undeserving is exactly the place that we all are in when Christ saved us.
Joanna,
I see what you mean now. I do agree, our system is broken in some regards. But I also think the government would only make it worse. I believe less government intervention would help with lower costs (making it more affordable for the poor), just like Ron Paul said. Whenever the government puts it’s fingers in something the cost ALWAYS goes up. When the free market is allowed to work properly competition drives down costs. That is something that should be looked into for healthcare.
Joanna – “I might have misunderstood, and maybe you were concerned about being careful not to covet health insurance yourself, Lori, and of course I can’t speak to what’s in your own heart–that’s a different situation than what I was speaking to.”
– Well, no, I wasn’t speaking only to or of myself. That’s a universal law. Fankly I believe that is covers Christians and non alike. What I see often IS people coveting others’ health insurance (having it or the particular level). Or coveting someone else’s money/income with which they can donate here or there- and not to the coveter’s preferred organization/ministry/service.
J – “I don’t think that to want health insurance if you don’t have it means necessarily that you are coveting.”
– No, cercainly not! A person can look around him or her and see all kinds of things and want them without falling into covetousness. Many – such as health ins. are GOOD to want. What makes it coveting is when a person wants something and is willing (even theoretically – coveting is a sin that begins very obviously in the heart) to take it at someone else’s expense without their permission. Like in a democracy or democratic republic, through majority rule – tyrany of the majority.
J – “Lori, I wasn’t criticizing scripture. I was rather taken aback that what’s you thought, but perhaps that was because of the way I worded my comment.”
– To tell the truth, I don’t really remember how you worded your thought. But I certainly had the impression that whatever your concerns were, you were blowing off a commandment. Thank you for clarifying.
J – “Poor doesn’t equal undeserving.”
– Well, I certainly can agree with this! But teh truth is that deserving often is irrelevant. I mean, why is your neighbor looking at paralysis? Certainly not because of deserving! It’s very often the same with finantial means – it just is what it is, and has little or nothing to do with deserving.
If it makes any difference to you (and frankly it’s irrelevant – I don’t think experential knowledge is preferable to God’s word), I went without any health ins. for myself and family for a fairly long time. We couldn’t even afford catastrophic ins with the high deductable, or an emergency medical sharing program like Samaratin Ministries.
And I’d like to add, that talking of these issues in a no-nonsense way does not mean that those involved are uncaring. Or Non-donating.
Incedentally, I recommend that you check out samaratinministries.org – it’s a great service to those who want to take care of fellow believers in a biblical way, and it’s inexpensive, although the truth is that it won’t help your neighbor at this point, as she has a “pre-exixting condition.”
Also check out littletate.com – a family (who apparantly had no ins) had a baby 3 mos premature – and God has been providing for them finantially in a very creative way. I’m not saying it’ll help your neighbor, but it is surely a testimony to God’s goodness, and to the ability to fix some of our medical cost-issues without gov’t wealth redistribution.