Reports have been widely revealed that a population control “program” in some countries has been implemented–unbeknown to its citizens– which laces a free tetanus vaccine with an abortifacient level of hCG hormone. In a nutshell, young women are being given a vaccine–repeatedly–that makes them infertile or causes multiple miscarriages.
“A BBC documentary reported that women in the Philippines and Mexico have also been used as guinea pigs for a new experimental pregnancy vaccine. The HCG vaccine makes a woman’s body reject new pregnancies. According to human rights activists, it has been administered, without the consent or knowledge of patients, as a “piggyback” vaccine in a series of tetanus vaccine programs.
Many Filipinos were initially curious as to why only women of reproductive age had been eligible for the free tetanus vaccine, especially since tetanus is more common among young men. But when women who had recently received the “tetanus vaccine” began having an inordinate number of miscarriages, this bureaucratic curiosity turned into charges of conspiracy. Subsequent lab tests of the tetanus vaccine confirmed it had indeed been laced with an HCG vaccine.”
Interesting facts about this heinous operation:
- Only women are vaccinated, and only the women between the ages of 15 and 45. (In Nicaragua the age range was 12-49.) But aren’t men at least as likely as young women to come into contact with tetanus? And what of the children? Why are they excluded?
- The vaccination protocols call for multiple injections — three within three months and a total of five altogether. But, since tetanus vaccinations provide protection for ten years or more, why are multiple inoculations called for?
- WHO has been actively involved for more than 20 years in the development of an anti-fertility vaccine utilizing hCG tied to tetanus toxoid as a carrier — the exact same coupling as has been found in the Mexican-Philippine-Nicaragua vaccines
- The WHO began its “Special Programme” in human reproduction in 1972, and by 1993 had spent more than $356 million on “reproductive health” research.(7) It is this “Programme” which has pioneered the development of the abortifacient vaccine. Over $90 million of this Programme’s funds were contributed by Sweden; Great Britain donated more than $52 million, while Norway, Denmark and Germany kicked in for $41 million , $27 million, and $12 million, respectively. The U.S., thanks to the cut-off of such funding during the Reagan-Bush administrations, has contributed “only” $5.7 million, including a new payment in 1993 by the Clinton administration of $2.5 million. Other major contributors to the WHO Programme include UNFPA, $61 million; the World Bank, $15.5 million; the Rockefeller Foundation, $2.5 million; the Ford Foundation, over $1 million; and the IDRC (International Research and Development Centre of Canada), $716.5 thousand.
Funny, I got a letter just today from the State Health Department telling me that they didn’t have some of my children’s vaccine records on “lifetime file” and I really needed to update those 😉 Of course the file would be empty. I’ve been skeptical of vaccines for many reasons, and I just found another one.
127 comments
Another thing to add to my prayer list…
This really breaks my heart. I mean, I really am at the point of tears (and it’s not pregnancy hormones.) Why are they doing this to our precious children. Why?
This is disgusting. God help the people who support and promote and make these devices of murder. They certainly do need prayer.
Isn’t this counter-intuitive on their parts, though? I mean, if they get rid of all these babies, what will they do for the aborted fetal tissue they need for the chicken pox vaccines?
(Sorry – weird first comment, I’m sure – thanks for posting this… was referred over by a friend.)
That is very disturbing.
Kelly, how are you going? Has the itch setled? 10 days on the counter. WOW!
If anyone cares to look at all the evidence on the other side of this rumor, here’s a document you might want to look at.
http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/milstien.pdf
I realize that the anti vaccine crowd isn’t so much interested in public health data, but it is a clarifying article.
Kelly, I’m intrigued to know why you’re anti-vaccine. In my mind they are essential for protecting my children from many life-threatening diseases. I would be really interested to read your reasons if you wouldn’t mind doing a post. Thanks!
Have just had a quick read of the article posted by Madge. I personally think this so-called ‘population-control program’ is scaremongering; it does sound like a strange rumour whipped up by the media.
I have a friend who is a nursy and works for our local health dept.Her mom and dad where pediatricians.She does not vaccinate her own children.If you ask her why she claims they are allergic to to many things and don’t want to take a chance on a reaction.However she did not let the hospital even put eye drops in her new borns eyes.
Madge,
I have read a number of articles from a number of sources, and frankly, it’s difficult to know, when you read ONE article by WHO, what the truth is. According to other sources, there have been MULTIPLE tests performed and the high levels of hCG were found, while WHO has denied it in the form of several “excuses”. I’ll continue to read; but everything I’ve seen so far lines up with evidence that it is indeed being experimentally done. And quite frankly, population control has been “under the radar” for a long time, because of the greenhouse effect scare; so I’m certainly not surprised at extreme attempts to curb population. But, as I said, I don’t want to report false information; if I feel adequate evidence is found to dispute these claims, I will certainly post them.
Sarah F,
After lots of research, we felt that the risks of immunizing against rare/obsolete diseases (most of which now have a cure) weren’t worth the worse possible risks/diseases that vaccines have been known to pose. (Many devastating “unexplained” adult diseases (ALS, Alzheimer’s, MS., etc. have been thought to be related to some of the toxins found in vaccines) Autism is a biggie, too.
I have posted a few things before…here they are–hope it helps explain:
http://generationcedar.com/2009/03/video-what-you-need-to-know-about.html
http://generationcedar.com/2009/03/vaccinations-and-other-random.html
Just two things I had to had:
hCG is not an aborficant, it’s used as a last resort drug to treat infertility. (New theory: WHO trying to increase fertility in the third world?)
I know I will never convince any anti-vaccination folks that vaccinations are good for most people – but many of the disease that are vaccinated for are not rear or obsolete and cannot be cured. I’m thinking of whopping cough in babies, tetanus, mumps in boy children and the list goes on.
I have several problems with the vaccination concept.
A) Even if these vaccines are exactly what they say that they are, how healthy are they long term for the individuals who receive them.
B)Let’s really think this through ladies – We have a government that is totally gung ho for abortion. Obviously, they do not have a high regard for human life or the well being of children. Yet, they PUSH, PUSH, PUSH for children to receive vaccination cocktails. Ostensibly, this is for the good of those precious little children, yet if we look at the abortion laws, our government doesn’t care about children. So why the push? What else is involved in those vaccines?
How many of you really trust the words of WHO and UNICEF? What have they ever done to earn your trust? If someone wanted to sell me farmland in the everglades, shouldn’t I thoroughly investigate the legitimacy of the deal before I buy? How much more careful should we be investigating the claims that it is beneficial to allow the government to stick needles into our children’s bodies?
Sarah,
While I’m not *militant* about vaccines (I would consider immunizing if we were going to a third-world country, etc.), still there is a PLETHORA of evidence that suggests many uncertaintines about their safety, and positve links to much worse diseases than they are supposed to protect.
You said…”but many of the disease that are vaccinated for are not rear or obsolete and cannot be cured”…and you mentioned whopping cough and mumps.
Regarding mumps, this medical article said:
“Mainly, mumps are harmless which are cured within a specific time period.” (My brother had them, he’s fine.)
And whooping cough is a troublesome illness, rarely ever fatal and perfectly treatable if contracted. Tetanus can also be treated.
Again, not being militant, just feel with so much research about the negative, long-term effects (not to mention death) vaccines can have, I think it’s prudent we make wise, informed decisions, and then rest with those.
BTW, it it a little less difficult for us to make that decision since our children are homeschooled and not as exposed to multiple illnesses.
There is also a theory that one can be over-protected, and consequently be more subject to many other types of diseases.
Just thoughts…
[…] This post was Twitted by DanaBailey […]
Sarah F – I am not anti-vaccine. But I do not particularly trust the WHO either. Not that they don’t do good, but they are run by people who have very different ideas of what might be “good” for people.
And given that there has been such a world-wide push for “sustainablity,” which most leftist agree to be a world population of around 1/2 billion people, well, let’s just say that it wouldn’t take much to convince me that this article might have something to it. Besides, the WHO is IMO something of a media sacred cow – I have a hard time that “the media” in general would be trying to do any scare-mongering against them.
Not saying I’m convinced one way or the other, but I seriously wouldn’t put it past them. Humans are just more evolved animals to most people, so why not? Spaying/neutering is the loving thing to do. From that perspective.
I’m not the alarmist some are, but I also don’t live with my head in the sand, nor do I trust national entities who are all yelling “global destruction” and blaming it on humans. For some who might find it hard to swallow that “population control” is even remotely being discussed, there are quite a few astonishing quotes/resources in this article:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/93/
It is cleanliness that has gotten rid of a lot of diseases, not vaccines. That is, if you will look at the data carefully.
Several of my cousins died of SIDS…within 48 hours of getting their shots. Of course, the doctors won’t make the connection, but their mothers have. One of my cousins became autistic…ironically within 48 hours of having HIS shots.
My sisters were vaccinated for whooping cough…and GOT whooping cough…badly. I told a doctor that and she told me to my face I was a liar.
Also, as Christians, should we not reject vaccines simply because they use parts of MURDERED BABIES to make them? We say murder (abortion) is wrong, and then pay money for products that have murdered baby parts in them.
The vaccine industry is wicked.
Personally, I’ve prayed and agonized over whether vaccines are “good” for several years. Hubby was never convinced there was a potential threat until he and I finally took a serious look at vaccines together about a year ago after our fifth child was born. A friend loaned us http://www.fortune3.com/rekojreed/Dr_Tenpenny_s_Products-Vaccines_The_Risks_The_Benefits_The_Choices_1.html
and I hoped that watching it together would open the door for discussion. When the video was over, I turned to him, ready to discuss the content and he simply said “Well, I guess we’re done with vaccines”.
He is a rational, godly, man who, until that moment, had not seriously even entertained the idea that the “necessary” vaccines may not be as beneficial as we are told.
To those who believe that the “anti-vaccine” crowd are unduly concerned, I would suggest two things…
1. Man is not “basically ‘good'” and those in power who are not bought and paid for servants of Christ are not likely to be overly concerned with the health or well-being of any individual (or group of individuals) that does not fit into the overall scheme of their spiritual ruler. Moral: be careful of who you choose to trust.
2. There is a classic marketing strategy known as “bait and switch”. It goes something like this: Advertise your product in a way that enhances (even exaggerates) it’s benefits. Hype the necessity of the product so that the customer begins to believe it is absolutely necessary that he obtain it. Perhaps even provide samples which appear to be everything that the product claims. Then, when the customer has taken the “bait”, switch the (quality, color, amount etc of the ) product to better serve the purpose of the seller.
We can point back to history and try to debate whether vaccines have aided in the demise of certain diseases. Perhaps they have. But isn’t it possible that people have “bought” the concept of mandatory vaccination? Is it not possible that we have been sold a product which is different from that which has been advertised? Regardless of the history of supposed safety, there have been many NEW unhappy developments that have been linked to either the ingredients or the sheer number of shots that little ones receive before they are even two years old.
The Bible does not say anywhere: “Thou shalt not vaccinate your children”. But it does say “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; lean not onto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths”. For Christians, whether or not to vaccinate is a “debatable matter”, IMO. But each of us needs to be willing to research to the best of our ability, and to be checking our hearts before the Lord so as to be sure we are not simply snapping at “bait” which is meant to transfer our allegiance from God’s wisdom to that of man.
Ruby–Thanks for asking! My itching is SO much better…been drinking a lot of nettle, dandelion root and chlorophyll–each day that passes finds me amazed that I’ve carried this huge weight around yet another day 😉 But glad to be feeling some better.
Heather,
As always, very well stated…thank you.
Hi Kelly,
I check in every day to see if there is any news of the little one’s arrival yet. 😉
This report is disturbing, to say the least.
As for vaccines, when my last baby was born a year ago, I decided not to have him vaccinated. BTW, my husband had the mumps when he was little, and we are expecting our 12th. So he is fine, too. 🙂
Take care and keep your feet up!
Annette
Oh and by the way, those who love the idea of socialized medicine…when that is instituted, we’ll have no choice, we’ll be forced to have aborted babies injected into us! It’s a wicked, wicked world out there, just like the Bible says. Not a good world.
I did all the vaccines for my oldest son, but stopped when my youngest was just under a year. Both of my boys have been very healthy. People say that vaccines prevent diseases, this is a misstatement, vaccines PROTECT you against them. It only offers protection, not prevention. Just because you are wearing a suit of armor does not mean you cannot be killed!
My oldest son had all of his scheduled shots, including MMR. Guess what? He got rubella. Alot of kids get rubella and parents don’t even realize it. I didn’t know this until he was diagnosed with it. It is such a “trivial infection” that it comes and goes usually before anyone notices it. Most children are not immune to it because of the vaccine, but because they have had it!
And even with the vaccine, They are not immune, just less likely to get it. My son still got it! So if it is so common and almost unnoticeable most of the time, why vaccinate for it? Why are such “trivial” vaccines pushed so hard? Why the pressure to give our children a cocktail of poison to vaccinate against a very non-threatening illness? Perhaps because they make alot of money giving out these vaccines? Maybe because there is an ulterior motive? I don’t know.
My point is, something smells fishy. Why are we vaccinating our children, for such “trivial” infections? Measles, mumps and rubella? Chickenpox?
I’m not trying to say that there haven’t been bad cases of these viruses, and that people have never died from them. However, why is it that chickenpox is all of a sudden so terrible, when just a generation ago, people were making jokes about setting up playdates with the kids who had it?
People used to accept getting sick as a part of life. Now people are so fearful of any type of illness. I’m sure if they had a common cold vaccine, people would line up for it, whether it was effective or not!
It is simply ridiculous to say that the media is trying to “fear-monger” us out of vaccines, when in truth, they are what “fear-mongered” us into them in the first place.
Vaccines have a time and place, and some diseases should have a vaccine, but vaccinating for something that is a simple and common as rubella, is pointless. I simply do not trust vaccines.
Anybody had to deal with pressure for their daughter to get Gardasil (sp?)? Mine are too young as yet, but I’m bracing for the fight…
KB,
No, but I’ve been badgered by a pediatrician at the birth of my child for not getting the Hepatitis B shot–the illness mainly contracted by sharing needles and having sex.
I am curious as to how hcg, which is the hormone produced by the body to sustain pregnancy, could be used to cause miscarriage? Is there any documentation anyone could share with me?
Hi, I’m delurking to make a couple of comments about vaccines.
1. I haven’t heard about the HCG trials in the Philippines. It’s horrible that women would be receiving an experimental vaccine without their knowledge. I hope the lead investigator is hung out to dry for this.
2. The routine tetanus vaccine doesn’t have this additive. It is given to women of reproductive age so they can pass the antibodies to their babies if they become pregnant. In developing countries, many babies are born at home in unclean conditions. They can develop tetanus (usually from an infection when the cord is cut) and die within a matter of days. And many families live too far away from the hospital to get antibiotics in time. It’s a heartbreaking disease that tetanus vaccination prevents.
3. I think our generation has forgotten how horrible these vaccine-preventable diseases can be. Ask your grandmothers. My dad got polio when he was 5, just a couple of years before the vaccine was available. She remembers putting him in the bathtub because of the terrible diarrhea and laying next to the tub, crying, because she thought he was going to die.
4. It’s every parents choice whether to vaccinate. But, please think of other children as well. What if your child has rubella (mild in many cases) but then comes into contact with another child who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons (allergies, immunosuppression disease, etc) or a newborn baby. Your choices affect others as well.
5. I’m 29 years old and I’m just getting over whooping cough. I was vaccinated when I was a child. My doctor said many people my age are getting whooping cough as adults because the vaccine we got as children doesn’t offer life-time immunity like they thought. Now children are getting two doses which should be lifetime protection.
That all being said, I work in international public health so I’m probably biased towards vaccination. Thanks for letting me comment.
Erin,
“When hCG is introduced into the body coupled with a tetanus toxoid carrier, antibodies will be formed not only against tetanus but also against hCG. In this case the body fails to recognize hCG as a friend and will produce anti-hCG antibodies. The antibodies will attack subsequent pregnancies by killing the hCG which naturally sustains a pregnancy; when a woman has sufficient anti-hCG antibodies in her system, she is rendered incapable of maintaining a pregnancy.(1)”
Like your previous commenter, Kelly, because I am older, I well remember the polio epidemic that when throughout this country. It was not easily treated. I personally knew many children who, for one reason or another, were not vaccinated against polio. Many of them walk to this day with a pronounced limp, one girl I knew was rendered a quadriphlegic for life, and many boys I knew, upon examination, were deemed unfit for military service due to mild polio when they were young, and this was during the draft for the Vietnam war, when they were conscripting anybody and everybody. A parisioner of ours today had polio as a child and is barely able to walk now, due to the disease, and feels cold all the time — something that has been with him for life.
One of our parishioner’s brothers died of tetanus when he was a 6th grader. Nurses have told me that this disease is very hard to treat.
My husband knew a boy who had mumps and was rendered sterile from the disease.
I used to live in England, and when I lived there I was told that the British do not immunize their children (when you have national health care, things that are considered frivilous like vaccines because diseases are considered to be wiped out and no longer a threat, go by the wayside) and I personally knew of 3 children who were autistic, making me think that there is no link between autism and vaccines.
Also, my husband and I, and our siblings and counsins, and all of our children, were vaccinated and are just fine.
But, this is a personal decision.
If this is true about the vaccine that was given to women without their knowledge and renedering them unable to sustain a pregnanct, well, that really is terrible!
Since I have ten kids, I have run the gamut in terms of vaccinations. Some of my kids have had nothing, some have had some (depending on birth order, and how much I’d read at the time), but none have had them all.
However, with regard to Heather’s comments, a nagging question remains. While I agree with your comment, I still do not understand the rationale behind much of what the government condones, advocates or legislates. As I asked on another blog last week about some of this administration’s policies, “What is in it for them?” I am more Libertarian in my political outlook (keep the government out of the people’s business), but for the life of me, I can’t figure out why the government mandates what they do. In other words, what benefit is it to the government and the politicians to advocate vaccines? I understand that power is an aphrodisiac, and money is seductive, but aside from the fact that they are promotiong a godless agenda, what tangible benefits are realized?
Cathy
The benefit for the government in advocating vaccines is $$$.
As I said in my comment, money is seductive. However, Mrs. W, I think the pharmaceuticals make more money from vaccines than does the government.
Are you being funny, Mrs W? What, exactly, are the parts of aborted fetuses that are being put in vaccines? Can you back this up?
We did all the same research and really seriously and prayerfully decided to vaccinate our kids. Had we family histories of bad reactions we would have perhaps made a different decision. The fact that the institute of medicine’s longitudinal studies showed no corrolation between vaccines and autism, and studies of first year birthday photos of children diagnosed at 18 months or later with autism showed subclinical symptoms before the shot, helped inform our choices. The fact that the one group of studies that showed a corrolation between vaccines and autism was not able to be replicated and was discredited helped inform our decision too.
It is easy to downplay the importance of vaccines, but there was a day when spinal taps were commonplace because in the ER for complications to “easily treated” childhood diseases. Iron Lungs? How many of our grandparents walk with a limp because of polio.
A population can withstand about 5% of the members not being vaccinated with no epidemics. There are outbreaks of measels pretty commonly on college campuses because of decreasing vaccination rates.
The pharmaceutical companies make more money, sure, but the government makes a pretty penny off of them too.
Why would our government want vaccines? Just off the top of my head, to control disease! Young people of today don’t remember what it was like, as I have said, during the polio epidemic. The reason young people are able to get away with not immunizing their children is because previous generations DID immunize their children and these horrible diseases were pretty much wiped out.
We must remember that there is a third world country on our border sending people up here every day. Many of these people, because they have not had good health care, are carrying diseases with them — things that were virtually wiped out in our country. Do we want to open ourselves up to those diseases? And, what about when WE travel with our children to foreign countries?
I also had my sons vaccinated against menningitis before sending them to college. I personally know a little boy who lost both hands and both feet to this disease. I didn’t want that to happen to my sons, who would be at risk in a college situation.
And, like I said before, I knew English people who had autistic children, even though when I lived there, I was told that the British didn’t immunize their children, preferring them to build up their own immunities. I don’t know what the British do now.
Yet if people would do their research instead of listening to propoganda, you’d see that the bad diseases had been mostly eradicated through proper cleanliness and hygiene before the vaccines were developed in most cases.
I’ve spent the last five years looking into the vaccine issue, so don’t try to tell me I haven’t researched.
Will try to cite some sources about the aborted babies used to make the vaccines soon. A lot of it is in books but there is some online, so I will have to find it again.
Here is a place that tells you which vaccines have aborted fetal tissue in them. This is from the website of Dr Sherri Tenpenny, a doctor who has this information in a book on her desk like almost every other doctor.
http://drtenpenny.com/vaccines_aborted.aspx
By the way, when I was trying to find a pediatrician for my children, I asked her about vaccines and she also acknowledged the presence of aborted fetal tissue in them, but thought that their benefits supposedly outweighed the fact that murder was committed to make these vaccines.
I don’t care if vaccines did stop epidemics (they didn’t, but even if they did), as Christians we should not be funding this baby murder and pretending we are doing something good that God would be pleased with.
Madge,
Yes, regarding some vaccines using aborted fetal matter, this is a fairly widely known fact. Most argue it’s “no big deal” simply because the abortion had already taken place..reasoning: “Why waste an important material”.
Mary,
Undoubtedly, this is a cloudy issue at best, and I do believe vaccines have contributed to some reduction in disease. I also would agree with Heather that many of them have changed, and stand to change to a bizarre degree (note the subject of the post)–which could be one answer to why the government is so pushy about them. If population control were a reality here, it would be very easy to control through something the public felt so strongly about.
But despite those bad diseases you remember, let’s look at all the new, horrible, unexplained ones, some that have been linked to the use of mercury and such in vaccines. I watched my mother in law die a slow, agonizing death where one part of her body at a time just stopped working. Unexplained. There are many new or unexplained illnesses that one must wonder if there is a connection.
Bottom line…it’s worth a hard look 😉
After reading much information on Vaccination – we quit doing it cold turkey about 6 years ago. My parents have 23 grandchildren – the vaccinated ones (7 of them in 5 families) are more impulsive, harder to control, often sicker, more allergies, etc. than the ones who have not been vaccinated.
Mercola.com has a lot of information on vaccination and how necessary they are … even tetnis. Many people think he’s a quack – but I’ve seen our family grow much healthier through his advice (even the one with asthma). So maybe he’s at least worth checking out?
Also, my degree is in Math, I LOVED the statistics classes and had I been a feminist, would probably have pursued a Masters in statistics and made a career of it. I started coverting and crunching numbers not just for vaccinations but also for dangers of a VBAC (I’ll be doing my 3rd homebirth VBAC in a few months) … and I remember being quite amused (mathematically) at how often they changed the base numbers to make problems sound far worse than they were!
I am not in the anti-vaccine camp, and my kids are all fully vaccinated. However, I find this completely believeable. There is big, big push in secular aid agencies to make abortion and birth control normative in countries that culturally value larger families and eschew those practices of avoiding or destroying babies. Historically there have been several instances of aid agencies sneakily sterilizing poor women, taking advantage of their lack of education and literacy and their desperate need for medcial assistance. And hellooooo! our new president reversed the Mexico City Policy with this same object–stop them poor brown people from breeding. It is eugenics, it is arrogant, it is disgusting, and it is very, very real. 🙁 I personally know of a “missioanry” doctor who would happily give women who came to her clinic shots of Depo. What they wanted was a short “break” from childbearing. She did not make them aware of the possible terrible effects, nor the length of infertility it would induce. She was just pleased to be able to be part of “saving the world” by keeping poor, uneducated people from having more children.
Cathy,
My perspective is that Satan is the master deceiver. He is the “ruler” of this age–even though Christ conquered him at the cross. Anyone who does not belong to Christ is basically the devil’s mental/spiritual hostage.
I am not accusing any government leaders of having any sinister, hidden plan but I know for a fact that Satan has one. He is bent on destroying God’s people (hates all of humanity, actually) And he uses fallen, sinful man to do his bidding. Even believers can be influenced by him when we refuse to be taught by God but instead follow our own desires.
There are a multitude of ways people fall prey to the devil’s wiles. I think the most deadly, and difficult to combat maneuvers are those that cloak evil within a veil of false goodness.
Romans 1 tells us about the status of those who refuse to acknowledge God and express thankfulness to Him. They end up worshiping some aspect of creation (man or nature) and their hearts are darkened to reality.
The idea that our planet (an object of worship for many) is on the brink of an overpopulation crisis can propel worldly-minded people to make “tough” decisions like the institution of aggressive, government-directed family size limits–or the elimination of citizens that are deemed to be counterproductive to a society–or the enforcement of heavy handed “conservation” programs.
I seriously doubt most of the people who would want such a thing are actually trying to do something wrong. But they are blinded to God’s truth and He has abandoned them to their own faulty sense of reason. Their plans won’t always appear to be rational.
Every time I read a newly disturbing headline, I have to keep reminding myself: We wrestle not against flesh and blood…
Heather,
I get all that. I understand that man is fallen, and, in the final analysis, without God, they’re enemies of the Cross. That I get.
But, let’s use the green agenda as an example. Besides, power (and lots of dough for Gore), what is the underlying motive? How does it serve the liberal purpose (in a tangible way) to have us driving around in tin cans?
I know what Romans says, but other than power, and money, what are they getting out of it?
Finally, since we don’t know the mind of God, I’m not sure that you can say with assuredness that God “has abandoned them to their own faulty sense of reason.”
BTW, I just reread parts of your comment, and agree wholeheartedly that Satan has an agenda. Of course, he can only implement that as much as God allows.
Unfortunately, my thoughts are less than cogent, somewhat convoluted, and my ariculation of those scattered thoughts pathetic, so w/that, I’ll close.
Cathy
It certainly is a diffeent world that we live in. New information all the time. Hard to keep up.
Heather,
I answered with a somewhat lengthy response, but, alas, it’s probably in Kelly’s spam folder–where one ended up the other day.
I’ll TRY not to take it personally!
Cathy
Perhaps when you say “parts of aborted fetuses” you mean the two stem cell lines that Merck have been culturing for 30 years to use for the varicella and rubella vaccines. There are lots of old stem cell lines in use. The US Government banned new ones, but not the old ones. Two stem cell lines, thirty years old each–that really doesn’t make headlines like “parts of aborted babies” which make the reader think there’s some collusion between current abortion providers and the makers of vaccines.
I understand the sensitive moral issues around stem cell use, but the hyberbolic language makes any real dialogue difficult if not impossible.
I have read in some places that they “only” ever used two aborted babies, like that is supposed to make it better! (Not that I believe that). Murder is murder and it’s still supporting murder to use vaccines, even IF it was really “only” 2.
Thank you Kelly for the info regarding hcg causing miscarriage. I agree with your stance on vax’s (but used to be a staunch pro-vaxer, I can only contribute my change of heart to the Lord), and I think its terrible what is done to people in third world countries in the name of “testing” vaccines. More people protest the testing of cosmetics on animals than the do testing of potentially dangerous pharmaceuticals on impoverished people.
Erin, have you seen “The Constant Gardener” with Reiph Feinnes and Rachael Weis? I think you might be interested, as it is of that subject matter. I would recommend it to anyone. But it does have some “adult” content and some violence. Cable t.v.-esque at worst I think though.
I’ll TRY not to take it personally!
Cathy
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Uh, oh. I hope this was referring to the spam filter and not my comment?
I was not intending to straighten anyone else out, so if my perspective is very different than yours, please understand I am not intending to start a debate.
While I don’t dispute how terrible the polio disease was for our country in the past (or currently in other countries as it has been eradicated in the US), I find the vaccine for it to be a prime example of why I think vaccinations are such risky business.
How long did our gov’t issue OPV before they realized that the only new cases in our country were ones where the vaccine had been issued before they changed it to the new vaccine a decade or so ago?
It’s easy to read the atrocious details of in a post like this and think, “We live in the US, it can’t happen to us.” Or, “Our gov’t wouldn’t let that happen to us.” When we take the pick (or rather submit our helpless children to it) we are taking a blind leap of faith that something experimental isn’t in the cocktail. As with the OPV, it can to happen to us.
Thank you so much Kelly for bringing this to our attention!
Heather,
I was actually referring to the spam folder. I see that it’s still in there, but you never know, Kelly may have 86’d me!
No worries, no offense taken. Perhaps when you read my pithy comment, you’ll understand. Actually, there was nothing pithy about it; I had tons of trouble articulating my thoughts. When it gets out of Kelly’s spam folder, you’ll see what I mean.
Here’s to hoping this one doesn’t wend its way into the spam folder.
Cathy
I tried to comment but it didn’t come through. 🙁
Although my children are fully vaccinated, on schedule, I find this report completely believeable. It is historical fact that women in certain poor nations have been used as unwitting guinea pigs for contraceptives, and have been sterilized without their consent, even recently. Secular aid agencies push contraception and abortion as universal goods and do their level best to destroy cultural opposition to these things. For goodness sake, a few months ago our government started funding overseas abortions. Our government, our tax dollars, killing babies overseas.
I have absolutely no problem believing that some arrogant liberal eugenicist decided to help the “poor, ignorant brown people” stop having babies.
It’s not the tetanus vaccine that is bad, but the fact that someone used it and altered it for their own purposes.
I was careless in the early days of motherhood with regard to vaccines. I figured my pediatrician was a nice guy and a caring parent himself, and he knew what he was doing and why not vaccinate? Isn’t that what every good family does? And they have to have this load of drugs in their two month old system to go to school, right?
I’m actually not anti-vaccination, but I do have a LOT of questions….like why so many unnecessary additives, like mercury and now hCG? And other than the fact that public school kids miss more school than the public school system would like, what’s the big deal with chicken pox? Don’t get me started on Gardasil for eleven year olds – now we want vaccines to substitute for appropriate parental supervision of young girls?
The other thing I worry about is efficacy….there’s no way we can know, since as was pointed out by Mrs. W and others that hygiene is in fact the best preventative for disease, to what extent any given vaccine is actually responsible for the curb of disease, particularly in first world nations. I am currently on a vigilant watch on my own behalf for signs of auto-immune illnesses, since in adulthood I’ve had chicken pox, mumps (and I was vaccinated as a child), and fifths disease, routine childhood illnesses all that are much more severe in adulthood. I would have been better off having them as a CHILD!
I also hear alarm bells going off when there seems to be a need to ignore parent’s own direct experience of their children’s reactions to vaccination, dismissing it as “anectodal”, or “emotional”, or just plain “they’re just parents, we’re Doctors”. I do not believe for one minute that every parent who watched their child turn from a thriving toddler into a the latest autism statistic right before their very eyes is just reacting emotionally, and all the clinical signs were there and they were going to be autistic all along. It doesn’t add up. My dermatologist likes to tell me that I can’t possibly break out from eating coconut, but he has no explanation for the fact that when I eat coconut, my face breaks out! They don’t know everything. The logical conclusion is of course, don’t eat coconut, but with vaccines, it seems to be keep on giving them and we’ll deal with the consequences later. Not good, and sounds suspiciously driven by an agenda that isn’t about children’s health.
Like all things that are presented as “you have to do this right now or we’re all gonna die”, I think blanket vaccination should be looked upon with a certain degree of skepticism.
That documentary is The Human Laboratory (1995).
You should not believe everything you read, including a random 14-year old documentary. Have you even seen it yourself?
Ashley,
There are more than this one document…and yes, I’m researching from other sources as well.
To all commenters…
I’ve been away for like, 8 hours (?) gasp! and just wanted to say again, I’ve enjoyed reading through the comments and watching you all have a thoughtful, respectful discussion about a topic that can turn passionate very quickly.
I appreciate all your input as I think it gives us all something to ponder. The VERY reason I started this blog, bottom line, was that I saw so many people just going along with what other people said was “the best thing”…regardless of the issue. I simply wanted to challenge people to question, think, sort through, research and do a little more thinking on their own before they swallowed the popular opinion.
You all do just that, and it thrills me.
“There are more than this one document…”
Like? You didn’t even name this one, I had to look for it. I don’t even even of the other commenters named it. You didn’t even say if you have seen it. (Can I assume the answer is no?)
http://www.vaclib.org/basic/trufax/v6.html
http://www.thinktwice.com/birthcon.htm
http://www.akha.org/content/medicaldocuments/tetanustoxoidphilippines.html
http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/arc_features/medical/abortions01-99.html
http://intimm.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/2/2/151
http://nationalexpositor.com/News/616.html
These are a few of hundreds…don’t know why you really had to “look” for it.
Good links Mrs Kelly, although I doubt that she will even read them. She has her mind made up already that it is quite fine to inject murdered babies into people.
Ashley,
I think I misunderstood which links you were looking for…did you mean about the tetanus vaccine or the aborted tissue being used in vaccines?
“For over 30 years the pharmaceutical companies in this country have been producing vaccines derived from tissues of aborted fetuses, a fact that was brought to light only in the late 1990’s. When the source of the vaccines were revealed, many principled individuals objected and with good reason. As the information has continued to become more and more public, a large number of physicians and parents are highly troubled by the ethical issues involved.”
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/October2002/VaccinesFromAborted4.htm
“We had read somewhere that many vaccines were manufactured with fetal (that’s unborn little baby boys and girls) cell components. So, we decided to ask questions.
We had gone to the Health Department, which we were told were the only ones who gave the vaccine. We asked the attending nurse to find out, beforehand, if the vaccine we were about to have had any connection with aborted babies.
The staff graciously started to make inquires, calling the company (Merck) that manufactured the vaccine. It took awhile. They came back with this almost unbelievable report. They informed the caller that this vaccine had components that were obtained from an aborted baby boy. We had no idea they could be so precise. We politely declined the vaccine and left.”
http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/519796.html?nav=5061
“Dr. Kristine Severyn, director of the Ohio
Parents group, reported that the US version of the Rubella vaccine
(MERWAX, manufactured by Merck & Co.) also is manufactured with
components originating from aborted fetuses.”
http://www.whale.to/m/aborted.htm
http://www.vaclib.org/legal/MTstate/chickenpox.pdf
To those who are critical of the non-vaccine approach, I would highly recommend Dr Sherri Tenpenny’s site and resources.
http://drtenpenny.com/default.aspx
She isn’t a “quack” researcher but has sifted through mounds of official CDC information as well as “incidental” evidence.
Her presentations are not of a “religious” nature and her purpose is not to “order” people to stop vaccinating but inform as to the history and what we are doing (medically and socially) as we make such decisions .
Heather, Dr Tenpenny’s site is awesome! But can you believe I’ve had people tell me she’s not a reliable resource since a “real doctor” wouldn’t have a blog? People will say anything to try to discredit any valid information they don’t like. It goes to show most of them don’t want to know.
My kids have all been vaccinated. However, I think this should be a parental decision, and not mandated by the government. I’m finding the research on vaccines very interesting reading.
Kelly — I may not agree with everything on your site, but you certainly make me think! And I enjoy that.
Just my 2 cents.
Still checking daily to see if you’re in labor yet!
Mrs W.
We all have moments in which we fail to truly listen.
Try to be patient with those who quickly discount information that you share. Not everyone is simply stubborn. Non-believers must come to a place of repentance before God’s values mean anything to them. And Christians are not all at the exact same place in the narrow way — God may be working in some other area of their heart at the time. It is quite possible that seeds you plant today may take root at a later date.
Look up Mary Tocco. She’s been researching vaccines for almost 30 years. Watch her video presentations on You Tube. Very VERY good information–lots of charts and resources she provides to make it plain and simple.
I really have a hard time continuing a discussion when people who choose to vaccinate their children are classified as somehow needing to “repent”.
There is nothing scriptural about this. Period. Nothing about choosing to vaccinate makes one a bad Christian or an unbeliever. That is patently ridiculous. Saying this is unnecessarily divisive in a world that needs as much Christian unity as possible.
I love the saying, “in certain things, unity, in uncertain things, freedom, in all things, love” (it sounds much better in Latin). Jesus being God incarnate, who died and rose again. . . .that is certain. whether to vaccinate or homeschool or homestead or homebirth. . . .that is uncertain in that there is nothing stated in scripture that mandates these behaviors. So, we need to have a sense of mutual respect and hold each other’s dignity in high accord, assuming the benefit of the doubt, and assume that these are not issues of ultimate importance in the same way that other issues are.
Madge,
Did I miss the comment about “repenting” you’re referring to? I haven’t read that, and thought we were having a pretty respectful conversation…just curious where it was in the thread.
Madge, how is it ok to purposely inject murdered human beings into others? No, sorry, I’m not going to sugar coat it and pretend it’s ok.
Madge, I agree with you – in all things, love. And you’re right, it sounds better in Latin.
I take exception to your interpretation of the phrase “in uncertain things, freedom” – we are subject to and allowed free will, but to suggest that not diligently pursuing the truth, especially when it comes to our small charges, is somehow over the line Biblically is simply irresponsible. In uncertain things, in particular, the path should “be sober, be vigilant”. Honest Biblical freedom is a product of obedience that few truly know. It’s an AP course.
And we’re in “agreeance” about vaccinations….I happen to think that doctors are gifted, God-sent, occasionally supernaturally empowered people who have saved the world much heartache and demise….but what do I know? I’m a modified vaccinator who doesn’t believe breast feeding is the best decision for every family. Just a fellow traveler….Love.
Kelly, now that baby is at least 16 pounds…if I had 2k, I’d send it for your epidural!
Perhaps I misread Heather’s post at 3:45, but it seems to me that she’s imploring another poster to pray for the repentance of those who disagree with her. That to me is the essence of hubris.
I think we are agreeing here, Cottage Child. I do indeed think that there are many, many things that we each need to search scriptures and pray and talk to other thoughful, reverent Christians as a way to discern the truth. The freedom I’m talking about isn’t the sort of freedom that lets us do whatever we want. It is the sort of freedom that in many things gives us space to disagree in good faith, and that’s all I meant to imply in my statement.
Lots of family and company here today, so perhaps I wasn’t as specific as I intended to be.
We don’t have to search the Scriptures very far to know that murder is wrong, so why do Christians purposely decide to be accessories to murder (which if it wasn’t the murder of an unborn infant would get you jail time)? If they didn’t use murdered babies, then maybe it would be a liberty issue. But I see nowhere in the Bible where we have the liberty to “benefit” (even though I don’t think vaccines are a benefit) from murder.
There shouldn’t be any argument about this from Christians. Murder is wrong, period. What’s left to “have freedom” about?
Kelly, I think you have let this get out of hand. Some commenters are being rude. People are simply asking questions, because this truly seems unbelievable. If it is true (using aborted babies for vaccines), well, that is horrible. I’m going to be reading the links you gave.
I’ve never heard about this before at all.
I’ve read the links, and wow. How can we even stay in this country? And, where would we go? Everyplace is as bad as here. Surely the end of the world is near, when God will destroy it.
I only read the first few comments, but I surmise that had we been around times of the bubonic plague, we would have gone RUNNING had a vaccination been created. I do not think the govt’s original intention was *evil*; they were trying to help cure disease as many programs and funding are STILL doing today. We can become so hypersensitive that we attribute and evil motive to most anything. My children were all vaccinated and all are fine thus far; so are my sisters etc. My one uncle was NOT and has polio; walks with crutches daily. Most people who are vaccinated are healthy…the fact that some vaccinations are being found to now need a booster later in life, or dont protect all throughout life-can be attributed to living in a fallen world. This does not mean most people behind creating vaccinations are hell-bent on controlling the world’s population. Yes, the meidcal industry is making a mint….but we live in a crooked world, that is never going to be straight again until I see Jesus riding on a white horse.
Mary,
*** The reason young people are able to get away with not immunizing their children is because previous generations DID immunize their children and these horrible diseases were pretty much wiped out.***
This is what I told a friend of mine. That it is possible that most who dont vaccinate live more statisitcally fine becasue 90% of the population is 100% vaccinated. Its a mathematical no-brainer.
Ok, read all comments.
Nor do I undderstand why we must put people into categories….or that maybe they are not on that path yet,etc. It almost makes it sound like those of us who dont vaccinate are somehow spiritually doing better. The truth is God guides people on their paths too and sometimes we dont have a say in what defect in ourselves we should work on next. Everyone is made sensitive to the urgent battles in life that God wants them tending to for that day/week/month/year/lifetime, if they are trying to relate to Him. We wont all come from the same mold even though we have the same maker. We are all clay, but dont always have control over when another lump is added to our pottery-in-the-making, ar when a blob is whisked away. We are accoutnable with what we have been given. Someone cant be deemed “lazy” or a *murderer* and not “wanting to” investigate merely because they *dont* investigate. We do not know what goes on in anyone’s life inside the place where they are who-they-are-when-they-are-all-alone. We are only observers of those around us, supposing we may know what is better or best, when the truth is we have little authority on what really *is* for that person. And if that is “relative”….then I am relative, because it means I live in REALITY.
That being said, in no way is that referenced to anyone who vaccinates, as *I* fully vaccinate.
Some are made to be investigators, some do-ers, some prayers. Who am I to say some soul wasnt too busy praying to have time to investigate the internets for vaccination information. I will not do it.
To be clear, I am not ‘quoting’ exactly, but merely speaking on a spirit I sometimes catch here, though p[erhaps it is my blinded imaginations playing trickery on me.
Only my OPINION, though I sometimes state it as factual, which give my words the tendency to sound matter-of-fact and harsher than they are meant to be.
Monika
***I’ve read the links, and wow. How can we even stay in this country? And, where would we go? Everyplace is as bad as here. Surely the end of the world is near, when God will destroy it.***
Im going to the Galapagos, to swim with seals. They dont have to worry about any of these issues, and I believe they have more peace, and all get along well. 🙂
Mary – “Surely the end of the world is near, when God will destroy it.”
Mary, the last time God destroyed the earth, he took the evil ones out and left the good (Noah and family). Don’t throw up your hands, pick up a hammer and keep building the ark. The godly shall inherit the earth!
I guess that I don’t understand how “some commenters are being rude,” per Mary. Sometimes, when discussing issues, we may be somewhat vehement in our arguments. As far as I can tell, it’s nothing personal. When I know that I’m going to be discussing a hot button topic, or have a conversation that may become heated, I try to preface those comments by telling the person that it’s nothing personal.
Adamant views are fine. However, to say that “She (Madge) has her mind made up already that it is quite fine to inject murdered babies into people (per Mrs. W),” is pretty inflammatory.
As I already wrote yesterday, I don’t ever complete all the vaccinations on my kids. However, everyone is singularly accountable to God for the way they live out their life. The data is certainly mixed, and the waters muddied, at best. I submit that it runs the gamut in terms of what you read with regard to vaccines, etc.
I cautioned my daughter, who is a Godly woman (as is her husband) about vaccines. I gave her articles, but, ultimately, while they decided to stagger them, they went with it. This was after much prayer, reading and discussion. I have to respect that. And, it isn’t because she has a disregard for murder, or for human life. She is pregnant with her second (due in August), and she and her husband are in the process of adopting a sibling group from Taiwan. Furthermore, she is carrying a baby that may have issues (she really think that the baby will be OK), but still declined amnio.
I’m not offended, but think it’s unwise to paint with such a broad brush.
Cathy
Well no, I don’t think we should “respect” people who don’t mind being part of murder. But I am not trying to be rude. I’ve got two babies and one on the way, and that someone would think it was ok for them to be killed and then used to inject into their children and that somehow being good is lost on me.
I don’t believe in situational ethics.
Let me clarify. We shouldn’t have to “respect” the *decision* of those who are a part of murder by vaccinating their kids. But all people are worthy of some respect. So I meant that it is the decision they make to vaccinate that I absolutely cannot respect.
I’m very passionate when it comes to the subject of abortion. When *doctors* are telling us that vaccines have aborted fetal tissue in them, and the INGREDIENTS themselves say so, I don’t think there is really a lot of room to argue that it’s “fishy”. It’s cut and dried. They contain murdered little babies.
Am I missing something here? I’ve been reading some of the links, here and in the prev. postings, and I have the distinct impression that the fetal tissue is only in a couple of vaccines. So a parent can be pro-vaxing but avoid those particular innoculations. So “situational ethics” isn’t even pertinent.
And Heather, I thought that you were clear in your distinction that some people are in need of prayer for salvation and some people are certainly saved but with differing opinions (perhaps incorrect at times). I thought the distiction was apparant – and a polite way of asking for more courtesy.
And why go after Kelly? What if she hasn’t even seen any of the comments since her last posting here? It is a holiday after all.
I don’t believe in situation ethics, either.
My point was, and I stand by it, that I respect my daughter’s decision, i.e., I’m not going to badger an adult daughter and her husband. That isn’t my place.
I’ve read up on the vaccines, as well. Yes, aborted babies were used–at one times. From what I’ve read, though, today’s vaccines are different.
Mrs. W, to clarify, is your contention that those who choose to vaccinate their kids are guilty of murder? I’m lost on this one.
Respectfully,
Cathy
Cathy, I believe that they are certainly guilty of being an accessory to murder.
If aborted babies are not still used, then why are they listed on the ingredients? Even so, the one time use still means that they were murdered.
Cathy, I’m glad you don’t badger your daughter and her husband, because you are right, it isn’t your place. LOL I wish my MIL would realize that and stop trying to force us to vaccinate.
My MIL pretends to be upset by abortion, but, knowing that abortion was used to make vaccines, tries to excuse it because apparently in her mind vaccination is “necessary”. I don’t tell her not to do it (although I think it’s hypocritical to say you’re against abortion but then promote it by buying products you know used abortion), but she will phone us about every epidemic that is even rumoured to break out and ask us if we will finally vaccinate to “protect” her grandsons.
Cottage Child,
LOL!!!! Aren’t you a dear…Yeah, very concerned about the size of this baby. Waddled to my parent’s church tonight for fireworks…typical comments:
“Are there two in there?!” (Staring open-mouthed at my belly.)
“You’re smiling, but you don’t feel like it, do you?”
It’s gotta be soon!
If we have hatred in our heart, we are guilty of murder. I wont blame anyone outright and in definition, because I cant read their complete inner heart. I will leave that to God.
God puts up, daily, CONSISTANTLY with an imperfect me. I have had moments of anger and hatred in my life, and just because I repented and its in the past, doesnt mean I dont marvel at his grace toward me. My repentance is only, only ONLY becasue HE *drew* helpless me *to* Him. We all frailly exist beneath Our Maker. Who am I to condemn someone, and not be condemning my very self.
I am so glad God doesnt allow us to be the final authority on judging one another. Surely we would kill each other….
Maybe off topic, but it gets me thinking….
Madge, Lori got the interpretation of my comment correct. I started it four times before posting as I was afraid of being misunderstood. Guess I still didn’t come across as clearly as I thought.
Thanks, Lori :0)
I was not implying that I believe that those who choose to vaccinate are sinning and need to repent. I am aware that at least one vaccine (rubella, I think) was developed in some aspect from tissue of an aborted baby. If I recall correctly,then the combination measles, mumps, rubella vaccine could be ethically called into question.
Several years ago, I brought my vaccine concerns before my husband but he was not able to understand my rather vague “feelings” that it was not a healthy practice ( I knew nothing about the abortion connection back then). I eventually quit asking him and kept my concerns to myself.
He was willing to take a look about a year ago and agreed to watch the Tenpenny video and discuss the material with me. We prayerfully considered what was being said and waited for the Lord to direct our hearts. And we didn’t have to wait long because we were taken aback to learn that the one concoction was courtesy of an abortion. When the TV was turned off, I was ready to present my case about the potential dangers and why I thought we should stop immunizing. However, we *both* had experienced conviction in our hearts and want no part of the abortion industry. Additionally, there was no after discussion about “if” or “which ones”. My husband just said “We’re done”, because he also became concerned about the various additives/preservatives and the potential assault on a developing immune system.
The Holy Spirit directed our decision, there is no doubt in my mind. It was an instantaneous “no brainer” and I believe it was a direct result of being willing to listen to what God desires for our family.
But I cannot force another person to become convicted on a point that I feel is clear. I can present my perspective. I can point to resources. I can pray that God will show the other person whether there is something he needs to see. But God alone is the One who speaks to a person’s heart.
My previous statement about repentance was in reference to the need for non-believers to find their foundation in Christ before they are able to access the true wisdom that only He can provide.
I will refer back to my earlier comment concerning the need for believers to carefully research this topic and take it before the Lord–ask Him to show you what is true and whether you should accept any vaccinations for your children.
I never got the impression that anybody thought it was fine to inject murdered babies into themselves. The person just wanted more information. After all, if we are not supposed to go along with the crowd just because the gov’t says we should, why should we believe anything and everything we see on a blog either? The person just wanted further documentation. I see no reason to slam her.
Hey Kelly, here’s a blog idea: nice or clever rebuttals to inappropriate words or gestures to a pregnant woman. Not that I’m ever on my toes enough to use them. I mean, I just want to say “It’s not nice to make comments about someone’s size” but even that seems to ellude me in the moment…
🙂
Still, could be good for a laugh!
Mary,
I’m sorry to have “let this get out of hand”…bear with me. 1. I haven’t been home this evening. 2. I’m very preoccupied with being pregnant. 3. One of my children came down with the stomach virus today.
I’m only one person, one mom, one blogger. I do the best I can.
It doesn’t appear to be out of hand, it appears that one blogger is just overly sensitive.
Thats a judgment call, Mrs W. Maybe it helps to understand another person by considering how you feel when the discussion is say, homeschooling. There may not be more than two people who are senstive….just not everyone says so….you k now, so things dont get out of hand.
Mrs W,
One thing I really like about this blog is that the inflammatory tone doesn’t really get you anywhere here. Like everyone, at times we all get ahead of ourselves like this, but it really does nothing to build up the body of Christ. Our country is full of small churches that got smaller because of petty disputes and harsh words, all in the name of being “right”.
Before this conversation I did not know that two vaccines were created with stem cell lines created 30 years ago from two aborted fetuses. This will be something for me to research.
I don’t believe in situational ethics either, by the way, but I do believe that biomedical ethics by its’ nature is complicated, otherwise it would not bring up such heated discussion and emotion. Hyperbole brings much more heat than light to any conversation. Is is better to use these stem cells for vaccines that save many, many lives around the world and keep pain and suffering at lower levels? Does the benefit outweigh the cost? Those are legitimate questions that people of good faith can worry over and come to divergent conclusions about. To most people it is a very different question than what to do about abortion that is going on in our country today. To conflate the two is, well, not clarifying to the ethical discussion of vaccinating our children.
First off, it’s more than two vaccines that do it, and no, I don’t care what “biomedical ethics” think, they obviously have none to murder babies and then pretend to use them for some “greater good”.
NOTHING, no rationalization whatsoever, can justify what they did. It’s wicked and they know it. And Christians should at least know that too.
Oh and where do you get the idea (apart from propoganda that is) that vaccines actually “save lives”. I know of lives that vaccines have TAKEN, but don’t know of any they have saved. I know of many lives that CLEANLINESS has saved, and that the government pretends it was the vaccines that did it instead.
Heather,
Sorry, yep, it was being held hostage. If you prefer I release the other one, let me know 😉 I have GOT to get someone to help me figure out this crazy comment thing! So much pressure to keep it checked!
Authenticallyme, in this case, I was talking about a specific blogger when I said they were too sensitive. The one who told Mrs Kelly this was “out of hand”. This is the same blogger who got the sulks so bad about a heated but not bad discussion on another blog a few weeks ago that she shut her blog down, and said she wasn’t going to post anymore. A few days later, when she got over her sulks, she opened her blog back up and started commenting on other people’s again. Therefore my comment about my belief that she was just overly sensitive.
By the way, I have no problem with home schoolers, just hope that we don’t “have” to do it, but I don’t care if people are “homeschooling only”. It doesn’t offend me, and I don’t stomp off sulking about it or claim a conversation is “out of hand” just because I don’t like the discussion.
The woman who claimed it was “out of hand” is an older woman who I thought would have been more seasoned to people disagreeing with her.
Hi, I just wanted to post after reading these comments and say that if people really want to change minds, getting all nasty and calling people ‘accessories to murder’ is probably not the way to do it. I mean, it didn’t really change my mind at all, didn’t make me think. Well-reasoned, researched thoughts make me think. A few things have made me second-guess my decision to vaccinate, but fear-mongering is not it. I feel it’s similar to ‘intactavism’ or ‘lactivism’. The people that go off about mutilation or crap in a can are not going to change minds, while the people calmly presenting research, asking questions and thinking of ways to get the view out there certainly changed my mind.
The problem is that when the evidence has been presented, as it has been here, and people still choose to be “willfullly ignorant”. It’s actually fairly common knowledge that aborted fetal tissue is used, and when asked, we provided evidence. Now people are upset that the evidence was provided and they ignore it trying to say that it’s ok because it’s supposedly for the greater good or something.
I respect the fact that some people would ONLY listen to evidence, but there are people out there (like me) who when faced with the facts aren’t sure what to think until someone takes it to a different level and says “think about it, you are supporting murder”. I know I think like that, so I’m sure I’m not the only one.
I was rereading throught the comments again, and this popped out at me more than it had the first time – sorry it’s a late response.
Kate – “Why are we vaccinating our children, for such “trivial” infections? Measles, mumps and rubella? Chickenpox?
I’m not trying to say that there haven’t been bad cases of these viruses, and that people have never died from them.”
Well, actually, measles and rubella have killed plenty of people. Measles can “settle” in a certain part of the body, debilitating it (remember Mary Ingal’s who was blinded by it), but often it settled in the brain where it caused brain damage or death.
Rubella has the same danger for the unborn people – it can maim a certain part of the body, such as the eyes, or kill. That is why we vaccinate against it. Now, we could be vaxing just women of child-bearing years – I certainly can agree with that. But we know that the vaccine requires a booster, so vaxing the children prevents the disease from taking root in a population and then moving to those women who are pregnant but who’s immunity has dwindled. Not saying you should agree with this, but that’s the logic behind the action.
It seems to me that an easy answer would be not to give up on the Rubella vaccine, but to push for an ethical version of it – the way parents pushed successfully to have thimerosol remomoved from the childhood immunizations. And in the meantime, push for stand-alone measles vaccinations to be available.
About mumps – while not lethal, and not always sterilizing, it can can be horribly painful for males. It causes sterilization by causing such intense scrotal swelling that it renders the testis defictive. Now, even if your boy’s swelling was not so bad that it caused sterility, why would you want to put him at risk for it? I’d like to get a stand-alone mumps vax available too, if it’s not already.
I’m not telling you to vaccinate your children. I’m just saying that YES, some of those viruses do kill. And even if the doctor can keep your child stable enough to survive, it might be with life-long debilities that were easily avoidable.
Just so you know.
Oops – ” I’m just saying that YES, some of those viruses do kill.” I should have said “kill virulently.”
Mrs. W. – “It’s actually fairly common knowledge that aborted fetal tissue is used”
I congratulate you on being so up on the matter, but really. It’s not common knowledge.
Kelly, Don’t worry about the other comment unless you feel it would actually add positively to the conversation.
I want to add something here and hope my statement is not taken to be “self-righteousness” or judgmentalism.
1.I expect most of us don’t know each other, but I gather that the majority of posters here claim the name of Christ as Savior. The way we interact with each other online says a lot to the world about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. Is our speech seasoned with God’s truth and spoken out of love for Him and concern for the well-being of others? Any unsaved person can be smart enough or loud enough to “outargue” his adversary. The truth in God’s Word is important to defend but *if* correction of another believer is necessary, it needs to be done in a way that does not defame the precious name of our Lord.
2. I know for a fact that God alone convicts of sin in His own perfect timing. The non-vaxing friend who loaned me her video knew about the abortion connection and mentioned it while we were talking about the subject.
She never once accused me or my husband of participating in murder for our involvement in the vaccination program.
She respects that my husband is ultimately responsible for our family and didn’t pressure me (as the wife) to accept her belief about vaccines even though we both agree that abortion is sin. Her concern for our well-being caused her to simply present the information and pray that we would be listening to what God wanted us to hear. I appreciate that she was both concerned yet allowed room for God to work in our hearts the way He saw fit. And I try to keep in mind this example when I interact with others who are not convinced as I am that something is wrong.
3. The Bible condemns murder but it also instructs us to respect our elders–and I don’t see where it allows for less even if one of them happens to be “overly sensitive”.
The poster actually made a good point with regard to those who are asking questions and trying to sort out what is true concerning vaccines. The internet is a wide, wild place and anyone can say anything emphatically enough to appear to be telling the truth. It would be foolish to read a few comments or articles and not seriously consider the information before rejecting OR accepting it.
The Lord matures each of His children differently and we all need to extend patience toward others who currently disagree with us. Even when dealing on a personal level, there is no way to be able to see into another person’s heart and determine their ultimate status before the Lord.
Jesus Himself said that if I behave toward my brother with an attitude of arrogant dismissal (by saying “you fool!”), then I am in danger of the fire of hell (Matt. 5: 21-26). I understand the reasoning here to be that a heart that has been broken before the Lord and is being changed into His likeness is tempered by humility and His love as well as a desire to understand and defend His Word.
Should we discuss topics such as this? I think we should.
Should we be willing to correct those who we fear are in error? If we care about their souls, I believe we should.
“But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another.
I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh….
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.” Galatians 5:15-16, 25-26
Didn’t finish my thought. I meant to say
Jesus Himself said that if I behave toward my brother with an attitude of arrogant dismissal (by saying “you fool!”), then I am in danger of the fire of hell (Matt. 5: 21-26). I understand the reasoning here to be that a heart that has been broken before the Lord and is being changed into His likeness is tempered by humility and His love as well as a desire to understand and defend His Word.
Not too long ago, God convicted me personally of being a debater who was more interested in “winning” an argument than I was in bringing others to a knowledge of truth. If I repeatedly treat other professing believers with indifference or unkindness I had better be searching my own heart to be sure I have really been changed by Him. It is possible to be 100% “right” on every point yet still be “wrong” because my heart is not aligned with Christ’s.
Heather,
Thank you…very important truth to consider and all of us should be striving to use these debates to learn how to speak the truth in love…I’ve learned a lot about that and have a whole lot more to learn 😉
On a strictly “health oriented” note…
Yes, acute viral illnesses have killed many people. And many of them have been children. Thus, the term “childhood diseases”.
The number of vaccines for the various diseases has multiplied tremendously over the past 30 or so years and the number of “childhood diseases” appears to have declined.
But chronic, lifetime autoimmune disorders, cancer (even in very young children), diabetes etc have skyrocketed.
Could there possibly be a connection between these horrible new health developments and the potential assault on the immature immune systems of vaccinated young children?
Heather, that was eloquently stated….and that is how I happen to see it too.
I do not like the way things were stated or accused about a person being overly-senstive, and there is probably a plethora of reasons why someone shuts down their blog and reopens it….a plethora of reasons unknown to our naked eye.
Abortion may be murder, but outright claiming a person is willfully commiting mjurder is a serious accusation. One that I am not sure I would ever make. I know how my mind thinks, changes, considers….it is a process, one laden with sin on top of it too….so who am I to call someone out on something when I dont know wehre they are at, at the time, nor do I know other mitigating factors contributing their life at any given moment. We walk in our own shoes, not someone else’s and I believe that God has it that way for a multitude of reasons…..and that is why He is the one who will have the last call, not me.
Jesus calimed that if we have hatred in our heart we are guilty ogf murder, and that is something to ponder on, though yes I agree in some ways it doesnt fit into vaccination debate, in many ways it certainly does.
only my opinion.
Monika
As I was musing over the last several comments (that I didn’t see until this morning), the passage in I Corinthians 13 came to mind. It doesn’t matter how much knowledge one has, Paul said that knowledge is negated when one doesn’t have love. Love trumps knowledge. Now, that’s a pretty heady statement, but that’s what it says. There is a WAY to say things, and only the Spirit of the living God can change hearts. Have you ever noticed that you can’t talk someone into believing and coming to faith? As Heather pointed out, the internet is a crazy world. One must be careful to be discerning and wise. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve received forwards with what amounted to be urban legends.
Additionally, in order to be an “accesory to murder,” one has to have knowledge that a murder is being committed.
There are thinking people who disagree. I appreciate being able to read, and prayerfully decide for myself.
Lastly, it is imperative that our speech is seasoned with grace and love. The ones for whom Jesus reserved His anger were the Pharisees because their lips said one thing, but their HEARTS were dead.
Cathy
Heather, good points as always. But where you brought up “health oriented” I think you and I may simply be discussing two related issues – but not the same issue.
My apologies, Kelly, it seems as soon as you left it got out of hand with one blogger. I was just trying to defend somebody who simply wanted more documentation. If that means I am over-sensitive, then I’m proud of it.
The blogger who supposedly “just wanted more information” was pretty rude and condescending about it, which makes one wonder, did they want more information, or did they just want to mock the truth?
I realize it’s not popular information, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be shared. I thought it was pretty rude to tell a blogger that she had “let comments get out of hand”. Who are you or anyone else to tell her that?
If Mrs Kelly feels I am out of line, she is free to say so, and delete my comments or whatever. I did however feel the need to defend the truth against those that were purposely choosing to ignore it. The ones that weren’t sure, I respect that they have to research and make a decision. But those who know and do it anyway, I do wonder about.
My apologies to you, Kelly, and to everybody else here. I wasn’t trying to start anything with anybody. Also, Kelly, could you provide more documentation about this important subject?
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