This topic has long been on my heart, and even though I’ve addressed it often, there is another angle–a question I’ve been asked many times by different women–and I feel the urgency to post about it. Every time I address the biblical pattern of marriage, I try to emphasize that biblical marriage is not a demeaning relationship where a husband hovers over his wife.
And yet, after hearing from so many, there is obviously a major misunderstanding in the Christian home, and there are lots of hurting women for whom I am deeply concerned.
Let me be clear: men and women, husbands and wives are equal–in every regard to human worth. I and others who embrace the literal interpretation of Scripture have never claimed the Bible teaches otherwise.
We must get past the terminology that rubs us the wrong way and see into the heart of God’s beautiful covenant plan:
“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.” Ephesians 5
I’ve been asked numerous times, and again, yesterday, the sentiment was repeated: “But what if your husband doesn’t love you like this? What of the wife who feels abused in her marriage? This teaching causes too many men to abuse their authority, so it must be wrong.”
The specific comment from yesterday’s post:
“And, I’m glad your husband never acts unloving. I must be in a very small minority….
My greatest frustration with all this patriarchal stuff (I believe a wife is to submit to her husband etc) is that basically they tell you that if the marriage has any kind of problem, it’s the woman’s fault, because the godly and wonderful man could never be.
That’s probably why people like you don’t understand the situation…maybe your husband really is perfect and you as the woman are always at fault. But, I have a feeling it’s not always that way for you either.”
I want to unpack this comment carefully, gently, because it does represent what a lot of hurting women feel. One thing HAS to be clarified right out of the gate…it’s actually the big hang up that I see with the frustration taking places in a lot of marriages…
“My greatest frustration with all this patriarchal stuff…is that basically they tell you that if the marriage has any kind of problem, it’s the woman’s fault…”
Unless the “they” here refers to the Trinity, we’ve got problems (and the Trinity wouldn’t say “it’s always the woman’s fault”). It is so tempting to blame “them”–those who teach “this stuff”, when it’s simply the Word of God being repeated. I have been the brunt of “damaging women” many times, simply by quoting from the Bible.
Do away with the terms if it helps. I know the term “patriarchy” causes some to shudder, and maybe many have indeed ill-defined it. Forget the words and the terms. If you have to, put away all the books except the Bible. It alone is the right blueprint for our lives. It alone has the truth and the answers. We must stop blaming “they”, unless “they” are teaching something not biblical. Go to the Word. And we must cling to the truth that God’s Word is inerrant. Because if it’s not, then we are merely operating under a Christian label with nothing to follow but our own feelings about life. (“The heart is deceitfully wicked…who can know it?”)
Which brings me to the next point: so many women are absolutely convinced that because their husbands abuse the principles taught in Scripture that we have been misinterpreting those Scriptures. There are groups and websites devoted to the reinterpretation of “biblical marriage” since so many men seem to abuse what is written. Logically, it would be easy to make such a conclusion. God obviously didn’t intend for women to be hurt by His design of marriage. So if she feels she is following the biblical pattern, but is still getting hurt, we must have misread the pattern.
I’ve read all the explanations of how the Bible doesn’t really mean what it says when it talks about submission and the wife reverencing her husband. About the time period and the difference that makes. I’ve read about the fact that “mutual submission” trumps any other kind. That “headship” doesn’t really mean what we think it means. I have done a careful study myself on these Scriptures.
Bottom line: the Bible is clear. God didn’t mess up, or give us some enigma that isn’t what it appears to be. The design is right and good. It is not intended to hurt us but to give us joy and freedom. WE are sinful. Man’s sin is always to blame, never God’s Word. When a marriage IS lived out according to Scripture, (I’ve said it a hundred times) a husband literally dies for his wife, “just as Christ did for the church”. If that isn’t happening, the command isn’t to blame–our sinfulness is.
Analogous Question:
The Bible says, “Thou shalt not kill.” Clear. We all agree that the principle is not alterable. Lately we saw yet another example of a man who “logically” believed that an abortion doctor should be killed in order to spare the lives of hundreds of thousands of others. In a numbers game, it seems logical. Usually, someone claiming to be a Christian is the one who commits the crime. We could look at this problem and conclude that the command is to blame for the killings. We could reason that because we’ve taught that murder is wrong so strongly, so adamantly, people are using it to justify their crimes to stop the murders. Do we change the command, or do we deal with the mishandling of it? Do we point to a misinterpretation? Or do we acknowledge the one holding the gun has the problem?
There are Christian marriages suffering because of various reasons. It may be that we are reaping the generational consequences of not being taught the proper attitudes toward marriage. Or we married a man with serious spiritual problems. Or we have serious spiritual problems. It may be that a woman is truly striving to live out her role and her husband is using it to benefit his sinful ego. I feel deeply for these women if that’s the case.
But under no circumstances can God be wrong. (“Even is we are unfaithful, God cannot be unfaithful.”) We must deal with the problems in an appropriate way, but we CAN’T reinterpret Scripture to justify sinful behavior. Once we do that, we set a whole generation on yet a more destructive course. We must deal with the core of the problem. The heart.
The answer? It’s not easy, of course. It must begin with an absolute peeling away of everything except the desire to obey God–no one and nothing else. (I can’t instruct men here.) Even our desire for happiness must vanish–and that is not easy. We must begin with the purest of motives, to obey regardless of the outcome, with a blind faith. She must walk forward believing God for His promises…which don’t always come without some suffering. Scripture gives clear instructions to wives even when they are married to unbelieving/disobedient husbands:
“Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.”
This is not wisdom in a time capsule; this is a universal, time-defying principle.
The church is to stand in the gap for a woman who is obeying the Word but whose husband is not loving her biblically. There is a biblical recourse for everything, including a man being held accountable to treat his wife as the Bible instructs him–loving his wife as his own flesh. If a church is not fulfilling its duties, find one that is. If a husband is being abusive, I believe she is to get out. Separate. Go somewhere safe, by all means. Pray, seek counsel, rally godly men and women around to help you.
I do not take lightly the fact that many women are in very difficult marriages. I hurt with you. Admittedly, it is much easier to embrace the biblical design for marriage when your husband obeys the Word and lays down his life for you daily. But even if he doesn’t, despite what the flesh tells you, obey the Lord. With all your heart, pour out your desires to him, continue loving and respecting your husband. It is not respect DUE to him that we give; we respect him because in doing so we submit to the Lord.
More times than not, I’ve seen even an unbelieving husband respond favorably to a woman who simply loves him, respects him and enjoys him. Men were created that way–their requirements are usually pretty simple. (Maybe that’s why there is so much teaching out there towards women and not so much to men…their needs are much simpler 😉
Scripture cannot be wrong; because if it is, the whole picture of Christ and the church is wrong.
Even as I write, I know how insane some of these words sound to our culture. And yet, our culture did not create man and woman nor did it create marriage. Therefore, it doesn’t have the answers. It doesn’t really matter if we *like* the way it sounds if we are Christians. We are given clear instructions, and our love for the Lord is revealed by our obedience to His Word (“If you love Me, keep my commands.”). We can make Scripture what we want it to be, or we can fall back into its truth and let God fulfill His ultimate purpose for us…which is VERY GOOD, even if it requires our temporary suffering.
49 comments
Wonderfully written and right on target. The heart of the matter is our obedience to God. It is not always easy or what we want to do but I have found that when I am obedient, peace about the situation always follows.
As Christians, the way we do things (if we are living biblically) will not make sense to the world. We are called to live differently.
On a side note, I just noticed how close you are to your due date. Hope everything is going well and I will be praying for a safe delivery for you and baby.
I read the previous post and all the comments that went with it. This post is well thought out and well articulated – but there will continue to be those who do not want to accept scripture as the end answer.
Marriage is hard work because it is made up of two sinners naturally bent on seeking their own selfish needs. Somewhere in the two posts it was mentioned that we, as wives, cannot obey God for the purposes of receiving something in return. That hits the nail on the head – but it doesn’t make it easier to obey.
For all the personal experience each of us has in our own marriages, or from witnessing marriages around us, it really comes down to how much we trust the Lord. Is He really the Lord of every part of us? Will we fulfil our role as wives just because He says we should?
but there will continue to be those who do not want to accept scripture as the end answer.
No. There will continue to be those who do not see Scripture saying the same thing you do.
Well said, Kelly. Thank you!
Mom of Many – both statements can be true. Both are, in many people.
Very good post. I read Excellent Wife a few months ago, I think it was really great in helping me understand that our true submission and service is a heart issue.
Just Monday I had an emotional breakdown b/c I did not think my DH was doing what he was suppose to be doing. I wanted so much to tell him off in my anger, but I walked away and prayed. The Lord gently reminded me that I cannot in all my power make my husband do what he is “suppose” to, that is up to God. I am only responsible for doing and fulfilling my duties. I immediately felt peace and the weight lifted off me, since I was trying to take God’s job on myself. I just sat and prayed for myself and for my husband.
I actually have a great husband, but this was just an issue of my heart. Was I going to go and sin in my anger or allow God to do the work he wants in me and my husband and marriage.
Hi Kelly,
I won’t rehash disagreements I have expressed in other threads with this patriarchal model of marriage. But I did some responses your 3rd to last paragraph:
More times than not, I’ve seen even an unbelieving husband respond favorably to a woman who simply loves him, respects him and enjoys him.
Maybe I am misunderstanding but is the implication that only women who follow the Biblical model love, respect, and enjoy their husbands? I was confused by that. I would consider myself very feminist and I love, respect, and enjoy my husband.
Men were created that way–their requirements are usually pretty simple.
I think all of us basically want to be loved and respected.
(Maybe that’s why there is so much teaching out there towards women and not so much to men…their needs are much simpler)
I would see it the other way around. If women’s needs are more complicated, then oughtn’t there to be more teaching directed at men to meet women’s needs? Why do women require so much teaching if men’s needs are so simple?
I think that more teaching is directed at women because, as the subordinate class, women are implicitly seen as having the greater burden to accommodate men rather than vice-versa. And perhaps to the extent there are problems between husbands and wives, women are seen as being more flawed.
I agree wholeheartedly! I would also like to add that it’s always easy to point fingers at what our husbands are not doing, rather than lift them up for what they are doing. It is soo easy for a man to just up and leave these days. Have we made it easy for them to love us? Or is their faithfulness a burden, because we are so ungrateful and demanding? If your husband is a man of basic goodwill, and is still with your family, you have something to be thankful for–a blessing that many women do not. My husband and I have an excellent marriage, and I believe he does love me sacrificially, and yet I still get annoyed and feel unloved by him at times. But more often than not, I am beginning to see that I am not sinless or always right, and even if my actions aren’t sinless, my thoughts and motives often ARE. And there is a verse in the Bible that reminds us that even if people don’t SEE our humble acts of service or anything else good we do “in secret”, our heavenly Father DOES see what we do and will someday reward us for our faithfulness. It goes against ALL of our modern advice these days, but do we really believe God, and trust him and allow Him to fill in where our husbands fail, able to continue loving our husbands, because God himself is our Heavenly Spouse and portion, our strong tower, and very present help in times of trouble? Or do we demand that our husbands have no sin nature, and literally be perfect like GOd to us? But overlook OUR sins and failures? Just some thoughts. (I am in no way making light of abusive marriages–I am talking husbands of basic goodwill). Try reading Love and Respect by Dr.Emerson Eggerichs. Very convicting and also very practical. Thanks!
Wow, Laura, very insightful and helpful. Thanks.
I want to tell you a true story about a lady who took Biblical submission seriously and I believe God honored her for it. I want to protect the privacy of my husband’s grandmothers’ story (it’s not something they discuss openly), so I will post anonymously.
But here it is. It reiterates what you have been saying.
My husband’s grandmother who is in her eighties was a submissive wife because she read it in Scripture. She didn’t follow any movement or group’s teachings (back then all they had was Scripture). She just obeyed Scripture for what it says. She didn’t need some man’s commentary to tell her that Scripture doesn’t mean what it says. She just obeyed.
She had a very MEAN husband who abused her verbally. He was controlling and demanding and very selfish. She read Scripture and it said “submit”. She obeyed Scripture because it did not say “if”.
Her husband died, but it took YEARS of this kind of lifestyle before he eventually GAVE HIS HEART TO THE LORD.
Today, ALL OF HER CHILDREN AND ALL of her grandchildren are serving the Lord. ALL. OF. THEM.
They all point to her as their godly example. This lady is a prayer warrior. A saint. And the Lord has used HER FAITHFULNESS as an example to win HER ENTIRE family to the Lord.
Oops, published too quickly.
We here in this family have seen an example of what you are saying. It worked for grandmother. But even if it didn’t, our grandmother would have been obedient (because she would have never known back then that her obedience would reap these kinds of results). It makes me seriously think of Job. He didn’t need results; he was just obedient to the point of great suffering.
I am not saying that a husband is threatening to kill or is hurting your children that you should stay there and let him. But I *did* want to share one lady’s story of victory. I’m not here to judge anyone, but I am here to offer a little hope.
Laura,
You are so right that it is worth remembering that our spouses don’t have to be with us. They can always leave! And it is also worth remembering that no one is perfect. We should always examine ourselves to identify the faults we may have that are hurting our spouses. (However, I do think there are occasions when one spouse is being unreasonable, or even abusive. Fault is not always a two-way street but couples acting in good faith should be able to work things out. The real problem is when one spouse isn’t acting in good faith or making an effort.)
I don’t know if you meant to imply that women are more vulnerable to having their husbands leaving them these days. In fact, women are more likely to initiate divorce than men. I think it behooves men just as much as women to not take their partner for granted.
My husband is a pastor and used to belong to a ministerial alliance. One day, a woman from a local woman’s shelter came to address the pastors at our ministerial alliance breakfast.
She told the pastors that because those verses in the Bible about how wives should submit to their husband can be abused, they shouldn’t preach on it any more! She passed around a book written by some author (I don’t remember the title or author) that said the same thing.
My husband ignored her. I couldn’t believe that that woman would have the audacity to tell pastors what to preach!
She also pushed some other feminist stuff.
Elizabeth said, “Fault is not always a two-way street but couples acting in good faith should be able to work things out. The real problem is when one spouse isn’t acting in good faith or making an effort.”
I agree with this. The unfortunate truth is that some men just will not change (not saying they can’t, just that they won’t). My father is an alcoholic. He’s been in countless rehabs but doesn’t want to change. My mother supported him, did all she could to lavish affection and respect on him…and then, he decided she nagged him too much about drinking (like for trying to drive with us in the car for a 3 hour road trip after he’d gotten drunk!) and he had an affair with a younger woman and abandoned her the week of their 26th wedding anniversary.
I have seen first hand how truly terrible it can be for a wife to try to submit to a husband who is a substance abuser, who says hateful things to people, who is cruel and crude, who is sexually deviant (pornography, making comments about other women’s bodies right in front of his family, asking women to take their clothes off at parties in front of the family). Should my mother have quit her job and stayed home and expected my father to lead our family? If she had, I think she would have been stupid, and I don’t believe it would have changed anything. She did the best she could; she gave him love and respected him as much as she was able. But, our household certainly would never have looked like an example of patriarchy, and I don’t think God was ever disappointed in my mother.
Scripture is true, and there are no “if”s, but the way we live out Scripture does not always look the same (not implying Kelly was saying that, but I’ve gotten that impression from some within the patriarchy movement). I believe in the principles of male headship and wifely submission, but these are principles, not blueprints. The principles will play out differently in each home and marriage. And, that’s ok. God made us unique and gave us unique challenges. That’s why I believe His Word contains more principles than “rules.” He gives us the important guidelines, the heart attitudes, and then the finer details are the stuff of our lives.
~Bethany
Thank you for sharing this. I don’t know if you’ve addressed this point. Many people believe if their husband isn’t doing the right thing then they don’t have to do the right thing.
What a mess that makes!
I’ve received comments when I share how I try to respect my husband because my husband is one of those that hasn’t done what he should do. He’s currently incarcerated and you know that’s quite a mess in our lives.
Someone said that he doesn’t respect me! I think the implication was that I should then not respect him. I answered that I am obligated to behave Biblically no matter what my husband does.
I think it’s easy to look for excuses to let us off the hook of obeying the Bible. Sort of like children saying, “He hit me first.”
Lizzy,
That must be so hard, but I think you are right.
I mentioned in one of my comments that a husband who is cold and unloving does not negate the Scriptural command for the wife to have an affair. A godly wife chooses not to have an affair NOT based on her husband’s behavior, or what she “deserves”, but based on her obedience to the Lord.
Quite frankly, sometimes it’s just a plain hard road. And I think our theology about suffering plays a big part. My uncle believes firmly that a divorced spouse is not free to remarry. His wife treated HIM like a doormat–literally–it was tragic. Then she left him for a younger man. He purposed the day she left–JUSTIFIED as he must have felt, that he would never remarry.
Is that fair? Maybe not. And everyone has different ideas about remarriage–not meant to go there. But for HIM, remarriage would have been sin, even though most of their problems were her fault.
I guess my point is that while there are practical things to consider (getting out in the case of abuse,getting counseling, etc.), there is also the need to remain faithful to God’s Word even if suffering is required.
“But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED”…1 Peter 3:14
and sometimes people make thier beds and they are then called to lay in it.most people have a good idea of the kind of person they are about to marry.
I just re-read the title of this post. It seems to me that biblical marriage DOESNT work if the husband is NOT nice. Yes, the wife can still do what she is able, and that is honored. However, to say that the marriage itself works, might be confusing. It doesnt work, and is not honoring to God when one spouse abuses their side of the street. We as wives if I am not mistaken, are not called to have a biblical marriage. we cant. it takes two. we can ony be called to keep our side of the street clean….and God judges that based on what he knows about the situation….not man.
I think one major point needs to be clarified here…among CHRISTIAN women…
It is not up to us to decide if a marriage is “working” like we think it should.
I’m hearing mostly pragmatism in discussions among women who are opposed to what Scripture teaches.
That is, I’m hearing “How can God be glorified in a marriage if the man isn’t doing his part?”
Reality check: God is glorified through our obedience. This post was about obeying HIM, even if it doesn’t bring the immediate results we desire. His Word doesn’t say “If you obey Me, everything will work out just like you hoped”.
Ask the Christians being tortured in China right now if “God is being glorified”? Ask the Christian family who just lost their child, or are having difficult financial circumstances, or whatever.
Christians are not supposed to be given to a doctrine of “if I’m not happy, then God must be wrong”. We’ve got to keep our heads!
My gracious…if we felt justified to reinterpret Scripture in order to adjust the suffering in our lives, why even have the Scripture? Throw it out the window (as I’ve actually seen “Christians” do…
I’m not trying to be harsh or insensitive to those who are hurting. God is with you, and FOR you. But suffering is a very real part of our lives. And we’re even called to “rejoice in it”.
Truth can’t be measured by our circumstances. Cling to God, His love and His Word…in due time we shall reap if we faint not.
I am fortunate to be married to a godly man and we have a good marriage. I cannot speak to those who have troubled marriages, but I do know that the Bible promises us wisdom and help in every situation, whether it is with our marriage or a troubled child or anything. There is no excuse to be disobedient to what the word of God says. He promises to give us what we need for every situation. The story of Abigail in the OT is an excellent story of a woman with a fool for a husband, and yet she acted with wisdom and discretion and God took care of her. As Christian women, we need to trust ourselves to God first, Who is perfect and always faithful, and then to our husbands.
I don’t think all the problems in marriage are the wife’s–by any means! However, I heard Dr. Laura (who is not a Christian and doesn’t claim to be) say something with which I do agree. The woman holds the most power in marriage.
The old adages such as, “If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t no one happy.” and “Behind every great man is a great woman.” are based in the truth. Truth that as wives we hold enormous power in our homes, to make them a place of peace and happiness or not. I’ve seen women who believed this way who had unsaved husbands make very happy homes (and some eventually leading their husbands to Christ).
I think if we really believed that we held the key to our own happiness, we’d live a little differently.
Daja,
“we hold enormous power in our homes…”
So true.
I siad the marriage doesnt WORK. I never said God isnt glorified. I never said i think my marriage should bew what I hoped for.
It is somewhat up to us to have a wit about us to be able to discern whether our marriage is characteristically working or not. Heck, our conscience will tell us that! I should also know whetehr my parenting is generally working, etc. Yes, when things go awry, it is best to accept it as it is, and part of that is to aid us in making changes….or calling people out on their obvious behaviors. Submitting and supporting a spouse, as Bethany suggested, sometimes means different things in different marriages or times of marriage.
That being said, I am doing pretty well at rejoicing. I am grateful for EVERYTHING ive been through. I would not be where I am at today if I hadnt gone through pain. Pain helps. I do not however equate suffering like Jesus, as allowing without question, people to abuse me, or people to treat me or others how they want, and not hear a retort for it.
I dont know Kelly why you feel anyone here is reinterpreting scripture. People are human and scripture wont always be as hard and fast as some call it. The same way a play or television show or song wont be digested and interpreted the same by a dozen various humans, neither is scripture. God does speak to his children uniquely as well. Just like I deal with my children uniquely at times, and give them different things or share differnt helps with them, depending on the wisdom ive gleaned from watching them grow under me. How this makes some of us reinventing scripture, makes no sense to me. We are merely sharing our stories and allowing you to see that we TRIED these principles and men took advantage of it. It is not loving or healthy of us as wives to just turn a blind eye and allow them to continue. I mean, we cxant ‘stop’ them, but keeping our mouths shut forever and ever as long as we both shall live, doesnt fit a Godly answer either. Some marriages will, from the outside, seem to be weighing on the side of unsubmissiveness, when actually the most submissive thing a wife can sometimes do is put an end to her being taken advantage of. Just becasue taking a stand to an extreme doesnt *appear* submissive to those of you who, quite frankly, have no clue what some us go through….doesnt mean it isnt the Godly thing to do.
AM,
I didn’t say anyone in this thread was reinterpreting Scripture…my original post was specifically addressing the reinterpretation of Scripture on this point that I’ve seen in a lot of “Christian” circles.
If you look at a command given in plain English as black and white as can be (not all things in the Bible are that way, but this one is), and you say it doesn’t really mean what it says (lots of women are saying that, without apology, though not necessarily HERE every time), then yes, you are reinterpreting Scripture.
The Holy Spirit is our comforter and enlightener, enabling us to see the truth of God’s Word.
Some things are left more to our discretion than others; some things are given to us clearly. The basic principles of marriage are clear as a bell from the Word. When a marriage is a mess for all sorts of reasons, those reasons are to blame, along with our sin, not the plain commands of Scripture. We deal with the problems, we deal with the sin, we take whatever recourses we have to take, but we DO NOT alter the tenets of Scripture–to do so is to blame God and mock His Word. That’s the point I’m making.
If I married in sin, or married a jerk, or married an alcoholic–whatever the circumstance, I have to deal with the consequences of those bad choices WITHOUT blaming Scripture as the problem. That’s all I’m trying to get across–IT’S NOT THE BIBLE THAT’S WRONG!
AMEN KELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AM said – “Just becasue taking a stand to an extreme doesnt *appear* submissive to those of you who, quite frankly, have no clue what some us go through…”
1. This reasoning is silly. You might as well argue that you have to have been impregnated by rape to have permission to preach against abortion. We do not need experential knowledge to say what we say. And furthermore, you didn’t say it, but there seems to be a suggestion in your phrase “who don’t have a clue” that some of us are just naturally blessed with easy marriages – so much so as to be utterly blind to suffering around us. Could that be because we’re not badmouthing people who either can’t change or did long ago? I doubt that there’s one woman here who dosen’t “have a clue,” because even IF she had never had a big problem (and who would define that anyway), or had never married, troubled marriages are just so prolific that that kind of ignorance is unlikely.
– AM said “I mean, we cxant ’stop’ them, but keeping our mouths shut forever and ever as long as we both shall live, doesnt fit a Godly answer either.” No one here is advocating that. Where do you get this stuff? And why try to use it as some kind of reason against us?
AM – “Just becasue taking a stand to an extreme doesnt *appear* submissive to those of you who, quite frankly, have no clue what some us go through….doesnt mean it isnt the Godly thing to do.”
OK, so know I’m not purposefully misunderstanding you, I get that you haven’t explicitly said we can’t preach godly submission. But you seem to be up-in-arms about what has been spoken here, which WAS scriptural – and you still are complaining about what was being taught – so I get an overall tenor of “you just don’t understand therefore”. Perhaps that is unfair.
But the above quote is still just silly, Since no one here is teaching women to not take a stand.
You are right Lori, I have not said you cannot preach Godly submission. I am simply saying what is ‘submissive’ may not always LOOK submissive to onlookers, even christians. You can interpret scripture as submission being a black and white command, but I do not think it is fair, encouraging, or profitable to outright say a certain choice someone has taken to uphold their stance of ‘supporting their husband’, is against the bible. I do not even know where my husband is living right now, and i *DO* think that is supporting him. To allow him to stay here doing what he was doing was no longer helpful to him. He is caught up in a cycle where he must hit his bottom. I am not looking for sympathy, I am moreso concerned with others who come here confused and simplify commands, and operate out of a “if they say it, i should do that” way of thinking.
I wholeheartedly agree that Gods word or the bible is never to blame. In my opinion, Gods word is perfect. It is the various interpretations where imperfection comes in, INCLUDING MY OWN. No ones interpretation is ever 100% perfect. And yes, it irritates me whn some say their interpretation *IS* perfect and absolute. Refer to my post in this thread (above)to see why I think it is impossible for any one intepretation to be perfect. We are human. Even the Holy Spirit inside us, though perfect, still resides in a huamn body, mind, and soul, and therefore we never hear Him perfecty on a daily basis.
My reasoning isnt “silly” (which by way is a judgment call…if you dont appreicate anyone judging or labeling/name-calling your reasoning, please dont do it to me or others also…I hear a lot of reasoning and thinking being labeled here, it being deemed ‘silly’, ‘absurd’, ‘ridiculous’; though not all in this thread here, today)
Lori, you are reading more into what I am saying, and I feel the way you talk directly to me is insulting, and condescending. Last time we duked it out, you informed me *I* had no right to call out other people on their behavior if *I* were doing the same thing, but then you come along and speak to me the same way you dont want to be spoken to. I was not talking to any one person here specifically, I am moreso posing that what seems submissive to some of you, may indeed not be submissive at all, but moreso a codependent way of behavior. That was the bottom line of what I was trying to get at.
One last tthing; YES, i do not think you can possibly know what some people go through; no one ever does. I do not know what someone who lost their home in Hurricane Katrina went through; I can have compassion and offer hope (yes even through the promises of the Bible) but I will not claim to know their explicit heartache. So an emphatic YES, I do not think some of you without the DEGREE of heartache in your marriage are probalby the best to instruct or udnerstand those of us who have this hardship. Its only natural that you would not. And NO that doesnt take away from the fact or truth that even those with good marriages or healed marriages still have marital issues, which whatever degree they are, still hurt. My latest counselor after two years of helping my husband finally admittted he even did not take the proper route in dealing with things as they shoudl have been, but he wanted to take 2 years to prove that to hismef. Do you see what I am getting at? Either a person has been through it, is spiritually gifted to deal with it, or maybe just at times has a fitting word. But yes, some people here will never understand the whole problem of addiction, abuse, mental illness, physical illness or whatnot in a spouse since they have never been through it. Surely it is not wrong to preach on it, but just keep in mind the “mom’s of many”, Mrs. W’s”, and “authentically me”s of the world have tried to apply these tools to our marriages and had to realize that the hard and cold and fast black-and-white way of doing things didnt work. Yes, it was not the bible that didnt work, it was the way men told us to do things that didnt work. Some of the dogmatic way things are sometimes voiced here, can sound very matter-of-fact and those are the same things that tripped me up previously. I see other women post here struggle too with a dogmatic way of applying these truths, so my spirit resonates with them, and I spoke to let others know they arent crazy, that biblical truths get twisted by churches, men and well meaning people daily, and no one can tell us exactly in any given excruciatingly hard situation, what to do. I am sure if I told my story in full, with detail, some of you may cringe at how I handled things in my marriage. But your mind wont naturaly be forced to think with the mentality that I was forced to, becasue I WAS THERE IN IT and YOU WERE NOT. That is all I am saying.
If you would rather talk off this blog about specifics in your posts I didnt not address, my email is melanchonika@yahoo.com. I do not wish to type here in the event things get out of hand and Kelly sees fit to need to delete posts. Thanks.
***If I married in sin, or married a jerk, or married an alcoholic–whatever the circumstance, I have to deal with the consequences of those bad choices WITHOUT blaming Scripture as the problem.***
I do not see how this kind of statment is helpful. WEll maybe I did all three of those things but was not aware of it at the time. I do not feel ashamed or guilty for marrying the man I did. He could make a choice TODAY to put his past behind him. I have that hope. But if I married him in sin, or because he was a jerk, or because he had an addiction, so be it. But to say I need to reap those consequences for my bad choices seems without heart. I know you DO have a heart Kelly because I see it and hear you say it, and I beleive you. I just think sometimes the way things are said can be discouraging, thats all.
Thank you for posting my comments Kelly. People can email me from here out if they want to continue. I wont take up anymore space on your blog, or engage with a chapter book on this post. I left my email now so its all good.
AM – I will look for the posting about calling names that you’re reffering to and deal with that later, prehaps privately. I vaguely remember it, but want to make certain about certain references.
By silly I meant irrational. “But the above quote is still just silly, Since no one here is teaching women to not take a stand.”
I stand by that. I think, in retrospect, that “silly” was a condecending word, but at the time seemed less offensive than “irrational.” My apology. That dosen’t change that fact that you were reffering to a claim that has been asserted, but not actually made or quoted and using it as an arguing point. Irrational.
AM – “some people here will never understand the whole problem” Why yes, that’s true. I agree. But you’ve changed you tune. You HAD said: “have no clue what some us go through”
AM – “no one can tell us exactly in any given excruciatingly hard situation, what to do” Yes, I agree with this too. I believe several of the ladies have kindly given examples of what happened to work for them. What we doctrinally are sticking to is that our husband is our head in marriage. Christ is the head of our marriage. I am truly sorry for your difficult marriage. I don’t pretend to know how to heal it, except that we are to “pray without ceasing,” regardless.
Having a hard time posting. I’ll for now address AM’s accusation: ” Last time we duked it out, you informed me *I* had no right to call out other people on their behavior if *I* were doing the same thing, but then you come along and speak to me the same way you dont want to be spoken to.”
Here’s the comments section I believe AM is referring to (see Lori 9:16 am):
http://generationcedar.com/2009/03/why-i-removed-comments.html#comments
Perhaps AM you’d like to e-mail me (via my blog, it’s been available all along).
Where I have misunderstood you I assure you I try not to take words out of context, hence the quotes for reference (more courtesy than you offered me in this issue).
correction: regarding :“no one can tell us exactly in any given excruciatingly hard situation, what to do” I attempted in a failed posting to write:”Yes, I agree with this too (generally).”
Also, I revisited my blog, and the e-mail was NOT readily available. A mistake I was unaware of, and I have remedied.
I was listening to James McDonald on the radio show “Walk in the Word” shortly after having read this post about “nice” husbands. I missed the Scripture passage, so I can’t give specifics, but he was preaching about a story in the old testament, where God commanded the Israelites to go into battle and be prepared to see God himself deliver them with no fighting at all. That they were to leave their weapons at home and bring their flutes instead. And that the Lord would be victorious even so. It occurred to me that this can be the way God works in our lives, too. In our friendships and even our marriages, and in dealing with our enemies. To the Israelites, going to battle with no weapons is just plain silly. To bring their music-makers, was equally foolish, yet they acted in faith, believing God would make good on his promise.
Submission can be like that too, sometimes. We come to confrontation in relationships, or tension, etc and we in our “preparedness”, come armed with sarcasm, clever wit, perhaps even some brutal truth, and other things that can hurt and humiliate and dominate, yet should we? Should we at times take the less travelled road and search out our own failing in the difficulty and approach the other person with confession and repentance? Or even with praise for them and God on our lips? That so often the Lord uses the weak things (flutes) to confound the strong (swords). Just more thoughts.
Laura,
GREAT thoughts.
Submission can be like that too, sometimes. We come to confrontation in relationships, or tension, etc and we in our “preparedness”, come armed with sarcasm, clever wit, perhaps even some brutal truth, and other things that can hurt and humiliate and dominate, yet should we? Should we at times take the less travelled road and search out our own failing in the difficulty and approach the other person with confession and repentance? Or even with praise for them and God on our lips? That so often the Lord uses the weak things (flutes) to confound the strong (swords). Just more thoughts.
Great thoughts, I agree, but not applicable when dealing with an abuser.
There are a great many misunderstandings here about what makes an abuser tick. (And abuse is more than just fists…sometimes fists are much less painful than other kinds of abuse).
It is very painful to read what some of you ladies have to say. I hurt deeply for the women who are living with someone who hurts them, for the women who try to follow your advice.
The Bible is clear. Over and over, God says He rages against the abuser. But many of you have words that support the abuser and leave the abused women in harms way. Something isn’t right here.
Mom of many,
You are absolutely WRONG. You are only reading what you want to see. I and every other woman here have NEVER said a woman should stay with an abuser…I went to great lengths to describe reasonable courses of action (including leaving) and finding help from others.
If you want to participate in the discussion, it’s a lot more fun if you actually address what is being said. It doesn’t strike my fancy at all when someone insinuates I am being naive or insensitive to abused women. Especially when I’ve been so clear and careful to make that distinction. (I don’t think there are any comments here aimed at a woman who is being abused.)
You just applauded a commenter who said that women in difficult marriages should use submission as their way to change the abusive spouses heart. Yet study after study shows that abusive people THRIVE on submission. They do not get better unless they have someone standing up to them, firmly but kindly, setting clear boundaries about what will and will not happen, how they will and will not be treated. (do not do this, however, if you fear for your life).
You have left comments up saying that women shouldn’t be talking about their abusive husbands. Well, if they can’t talk about their abusive husbands, how are they going to figure out whether or not their husbands are just normal humans who sin from time to time, or are actually abusive spouses?
You have left comments up, and made similar ones yourself, saying that an abused wife “made her own bed.” This tells an abused woman that it’s her fault (just like her abuser does). This also demonstrates a serious ignorance about spousal abuse. Rarely does an abuser show his/her true colors until he/she feels secure that he/she has the other person in his/her control (ie, marriage vows have been said, etc). Very very rarely does a women CHOOSE to marry an abusive person. The usual chain of events is the opposite: it takes a long time for a person to realize they are married to an abuser.
You and others have made statements about how suffering is a good thing, how it is honorable. Out of one side, you say, “seperate,” and out of the other side, you say that suffering is a good and godly thing to do. Suffering in an unhealthy marriage is NOT a good and godly thing to do, particularly because it perpetuates the unhealthy behavior (the children are watching, the children are learning. They learn that dad’s treat moms meanly, and worse).
I guess I am just frustrated, maybe not just at you, Kelly, but many of the commenters here, too, who seem to me to be very confused. I guess what I want to say is, “Do you want to stand up for families? Do you want to support the faith of the next generation? Then stand up FIRMLY against abuse, instead of standing against it on one side and standing for it on the other.”
You can’t say that abuse is bad, but at the same time tell a woman that “she made her bed.” You can’t say that abuse is bad but at the same time tell an abused wife that she needs to suffer for God’s glory. You can’t say that abuse is bad but tell a wife that if she will submit to her abusive husband, he will change. It is speaking out of both sides of your mouths, and abused wives are confused enough as it is. Their abuser has their head in KNOTS, and they need real practical huge-hugs help, they need love, and they need MERCY, and so many of these comments are MERCILESS.
These and many comments like them demonstrate a profound ignorance about the actual workings of abuse. I want to believe that this is not something you are actively choosing to do. Yet I beg you to please do some research, do some reading before you authoritatively tell those readers who DO have abusive spouses what to do. (Some of the comments here have about as much compassion as a MRSA boil, adding to the abusers fists). You don’t see that, and presumably that’s because you have not experienced this. I want to thank you for talking about it, but I also want to encourage you to learn more about what makes abusers tick before making authoritative statements and saying that God sees things your way too.
Momof many,
And herein lies the conflict…
“women in difficult marriages”
A difficult marriage is different than an abusive one. Maybe it’s hard to draw the line, yes. But our culture has also given women license to call everything that rubs her the wrong way “abuse”.
I am adamantly against abuse and think that is where the family and church must step in and shield women from it. (That is also where a woman must find a BIBLICAL church to help her discern and handle the problem.)
Difficult marriage? I bet all of us could come up with at least times when our marriage is difficult. For that matter, let’s just say “marriage IS difficult!” ANd I know what you mean…maybe a husband seems unreasonable–maybe he is, but that doesn’t necessarily constitute “abuse” and I think we must be careful not to blanket everything as such.
But aside from serious mental dysfunction, I believe the Bible does in fact give women clear instruction on being married to a difficult spouse. And if we would focus more on trusting God for guidance and strength, be more concerned with obeying Him and His working all things for our good (even if we think a little “suffering” is involved), we may be surprised to find that God really knew what He was talking about all along.
Abuse must be dealt with; A difficult marriage can only be worked through according to Scripture.
God’s grace will provide. If a woman is married to an abuser, and she leaves, God’s grace will provide. Is it a “perfect” situation, no, it is not.
The Lord Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well. Nor did he condemn the woman caught in adultry with a married man. Yes, the man was married, but, he was not brought in front of Jesus. All this to say, if a woman is in a situation where she is abused and leaves, well, that’s between her and Jesus if she leaves. It’s a matter of the heart, not “keeping” rules. Submission is easy if you are following a man of the Lord. It’s easy for me, because I am married to a man who loves God. But, I understand when a woman leaves who has been belittled day after day, hit, knocked down because the “right” dinner was not served, given a black eye because she changed the TV channel without permission, smacked because she did not wear pink lipstick, etc., etc. I am not making these up, they are all within my immediate family.
I am not Jesus, I would never judge, just saying, can you truly imagine walking where you are smacked over the wrong dinner? It does happen, to godly women.
Blessings – Dee
Mom of Many – you have made a boatload of accusations. For example: you claimed “You can’t say that abuse is bad, but at the same time tell a woman that “she made her bed.” You can’t say that abuse is bad but at the same time tell an abused wife that she needs to suffer for God’s glory.” Quote please? Where did Kelly (or anyone) say this about ABUSE? The only quote you gave was that of “made her bed”, and that was (IMO) taken out of context. Way out. But how could the casual observer know that, since you couldn’t be bother with the person or the cite? For example you say Kelly has “left comments up saying that women shouldn’t be talking about their abusive husbands.” (2:21 para 2) Who said that? Where? When? Perhaps you’re confused? I do recall two people (myself included) discouraging a woman from posting her complaints on a *public forum*. In ordinary conversation this is barely ok (if at all!), in public type it’s borderline libelous – you’ve accused christian women of “talking out of both sides of [their] mouths” (2:21 – 6th para)! This might not be a court of law, but this is bearing false witness. And the burden of proof is on the accuser. I’m tired of it (course it’s wrong whether or not I’m tired of it). Kelly has graciously left your comments up, flaws and all, and you ream her.
But I will add too, she hit the nail on the head when she pointed out that you’re treating “difficult marriages” interchangeably with “abuse”.
“A difficult marriage is different than an abusive one. ” (today, 2:39 pm) Well said!
“Abuse must be dealt with; A difficult marriage can only be worked through according to Scripture.”
(PS, giving time of day is overkill probably, but my point is Give Proof!)
These aren’t accusations. They are statements taken from comments above. They’re there, they are all there. Your behavior is exactly what I’m talking about. Shaming, belittling, condemning…this is abusive behavior. How does this further conversation? How does this demonstrate respectful behavior?
We are talking about a very serious issue here, where women’s lives are at stake as well as the children in these homes. I am expressing what it feels like to be an abused wife who has tried EVERYTHING and who comes here and reads these threads. Do you want to hear what we “hear” on this thread, or do you just want to be right?
I am not coming with an ax to grind, I am coming as a woman who is in a very painful situation, and who has discovered that most of the “teaching” I got from the “Biblical” books was aiding and abetting an abusive man, was teaching me how to be codependant, and basically took a bad situation and made it much worse.
I’ve met more women like me since then. Many of them have left the faith altogether. I know that is not what you are intending to do here, but it IS a reality.
These teachings may be great in a normal marriage. I wouldn’t know. But they are DEATH to an abusive marriage. That, I do know. And when books like Created to be His Helpmeet describe an abusive man as a “Command Man,” how in the world is a godly woman (seeking older wiser women for help) supposed to know she’s in an abusive relationship?
When a controlling person is described as a “leader,” how is a woman to know it’s abuse? She’s being told by the books that her husband is being GODLY by taking charge (of every single thing, demanding perfection). When she is treated as a child instead of as an adult, how is she supposed to know that’s abusive behavior, when one of the books she read (Fascinating Womanhood) devoted a whole chapter on how to be childlike!
It’s truly the most confusing thing a God-loving woman can ever go through. She constatly looks at herself and tries to make herself better, something the abuser is all too happy (gets the onus off of him), and she tries so hard, she changes this, she changes that, she bends over backward to do whatever it takes to help the situation, and it just continues to get worse. In fact, the more she gives in, the sweeter she gets, the more he takes, the more he despises her. But she’s just doing what the books say she should do!
Instead of being given a helping hand, the church gives her a gauntlet that starts making her abusive husband look safe compared to the church. THis is why women like me are leaving the faith. I didn’t. I won’t. I love Jesus. But I’m telling you, reading these kind of statements and these kind of words makes it so tempting. (Have you see the site No Longer Quivering? There are a TON of women there who have left Christianity altogether because they had been taught that following Christ means you stay in an abusive relationship).
We are hurting. We are in pain. We are seeing our dreams go down the toilet, despite all our efforts, despite all our prayers. We are trying to trust God in the midst of all this pain, and that is good—HE is good—-but that doesn’t make the pain go away.
We love Him, but we are hurting so badly. And you, who have this great opportunity to be His hands and feet to us, you are kicking us instead of reaching down and binding our wounds. You speak with venom in your voice, you who are in the healthy relationship, who truly have something to give to those of us who have been poured out. I feel like instead you act as if we are your enemies and you try to jerk us back into our place of meekness (you were so shaming, so belittling of AM. Do you knwo what she has been through? Do you know all the thigns she has tried? Do you know what her husband has done to her and her children? Do you know how destructive her submission was to her, her husband and her family?).
We aren’t your enemies. Please don’t treat us this way.
I do see where Mom of Many is coming from, and I see where others are coming from too. The Bible does tell us as wives to submit. BUT the Bible also has commands for our husbands, and the marriage is not going to “work” unless BOTH are doing their part. The wife being submissive might make it easier, but it won’t make the marriage “work” because that’s not how God intended. God intended BOTH parties to do the right thing, not just one of them. And I don’t see why it’s always said that the woman must change before the man ever will. I don’t see that in Scripture, but I do see a lot of people teaching that.
There needs to be a balance, a balance where we are strictly Biblical and don’t add our opinions to it. What that balance looks like is what I’m still working out. I can work on what I need to do, and things can be a little “better” because I’m meeting my husband’s needs etc, but that doesn’t mean that mine are being met.
The “they” who I was talking about in my comments are teachers such as Mom of Many mentioned (Pearl’s, Helen Andelin and I also think, to an extent, Vision Forum). These people DO teach that any problems in the marriage are always the woman’s fault. My pastor and his wife believe that (or at least his wife says she does…what else is she supposed to say?) The fact that people abuse the teaching or take it too far, doesn’t make the teaching wrong. We just need to be real careful to balance it.
And like I said, I still don’t know where the balance is. I’m still seeking.
momofmany,
Here’s the thing…you say, “These teachings”…go back to the post. Through the comments. You said “all those boooks”…I CAREFULLY said “throw down the books if you have to”…the only teaching I’ve pointed to is that in Scripture.
We are VERY compassionate towards hurting women. I thought I made it clear that I was not addressing abused women in this post. And if so, I can’t understand why you think we are “kicking you” while you are down.
We’re talking about two different things here. YOU are talking about women in abused marriages. I wrote a post about what the Bible says about marriage. It’s not MY teaching. I didn’t say it.
If you are being abused–GET OUT! Plain and simple. Find help. (I’m just a blog writer and can’t really offer tangible help…all I can do is offer my encouragement to find it.)
Once again, don’t put blame where it is not due. We’ve clearly distinguished between submission to a husband and submission to an abuser.
I am VERY sorry for any woman who is being abused. But it’s not what I’m addressing here.
Mrs. W.,
“…Vision Forum… These people DO teach that any problems in the marriage are always the woman’s fault.
You are wrong. I’ve read and heard everything on marriage by VF and I’ve personally heard Doug Phillips “give it to the men” about their responsibilities to honor, love and cherish their wives. Don’t spread false witness.
Perhaps it’s easy to *hear* that when you feel unfairly treated, but until you can give proof to something I know to be false, please don’t say it. I’m pretty frustrated with the plethora of slander going on out there about certain people or groups–things I know to be lies, or distorted, etc. It is not becoming us Christians to use a public forum to sling mud at Christian organizations. I think VERY careful walking is in order, and any “red flags” or warnings you think is prudent about a particular group should be backed up with solid evidence. That’s the way to prove a false teacher.
Similarly, in Debi Pearl’s Book CTBHH, she emphatically states that she is talking to women about their part, because that’s all she can do. She said her husband talks to men and is much harder on them.
Mother Of Many,I made the comment about making your bed and being called to lay in it.NO one here at the time had made any comments about being an abused wife .I would and have helped family members get away from physically abusive spouses.I do not believe in putting a persons life in danger.I have actually tried to type a few fallow up comments to that one and about how it applies to my own life but one was lost when are power went out during a storm and my husband thought the second one was to personal sence it has a lot to do with him I deleated it.I am sorry if you have been hurt.
mom of many,
You asked how is a godly woman suposed to know she is in an abusive relationship.My personal awnser to that would be if I am unsure, it isn’t abusive.I believe God makes the truth crystal clear.If a godly woman is really unsure pray for God to reveal the awnser.I have not read any of the books you are talking about but I personaly like it when my husband is commanding then I know what I can do to make his life easier and yes some people are more controling than others they usually are leaders.I don’t happen to be married to one of them but I think life might be easier if I was. My own controling nature sometimes gets in the way of letting my husband lead and when I let him lead life is always better because that is how God designed us.It took me about 21 years of marrage to let that sink in though.I have never been physically or mentally abused by my husband but was abused in every way by my mother so I do know what abuse is.
I’m closing comments on this thread. The bickering is unwelcome. Not a lady here is “hostile” to the abused woman. Not a lady here doesn’t feel compassion toward those are genuinely abused by their husbands.
The post is about keeping the Word of God unaltered. That is never a “license” for an abuser–not from my perspective or God’s, I don’t think. It’s about addressing SIN and not changing Scripture to get around the sin.
The comments (some of which I’ve deleted) are just turning into a ridiculous cat fight and I’m ashamed. We should be able to discuss matters of deep importance without such mud-slinging.
Comments are closed.